1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Xawer]

That's a fair point for what it is, but thinking about my character as some cookie cutter hero getting a cookie cutter hero's reward in a cookie cutter fantasy world makes me want to puke

It seems you are trying push some kind of your own personal RP or headcanon for being objective history. Sorry to say it but the Warden protagonist in DAO is kind of a cookie cutter ''Chosen One'' story, whether you like it or not.

 

Loghain's is recognized as traitor and disgrace, doesn't matter which ending you choose. His Legacy can be salvaged a bit by last hiting the AD,for those players that think he deserve  it. I think he does.

I'll keep my ears open when I get that far in my current playthrough. Not being able to comment on what is actually said, the Gnawed Noble in Denerim caters to nobility, not commoners, and the words of two guys standing outside Orzammar don't reflect Loghain's general image in South Reach, or West Hill, or in Gwaren where he has ruled for three decades.

The random gossip npcs and inn keepers are all the same in the game and location doesn't matter, afaik.

[Natureguy85]

(if Loghain was in good odor you'd expect her not to be there,)

 

Well, maybe he should take a bath once in a while.

 

 

. and rejected Bioware for trying to do something different. That stuff is fun to a point, but damn.

 

If you're referring to DA2, I didn't reject them for trying something different. I rejected them for doing a poor job of it. I gave them credit for trying. I'm obviously just me, but I didn't hear too many complaints that they went for the more personal story rather than epic quest.

[straykat]

Well, maybe he should take a bath once in a while.

 

 

 

If you're referring to DA2, I didn't reject them for trying something different. I rejected them for doing a poor job of it. I gave them credit for trying. I'm obviously just me, but I didn't hear too many complaints that they went for the more personal story rather than epic quest.

 

That's cool enough.. You didn't have to love it or anything...but at least you're giving them credit.

 

I think there were a lot of complaints. And lots of George Lucas "You ruined my childhood" type of stuff specifically. And unfortunately, death threats on one of the writers as well (Jen Hepler). Death threats on her family too. The man-children weren't happy.

[Aren]

snip

-They don't sleep in Redcliffe it is stated in one of Loghain's banter in which he expressed that he has no desire to go to sleep before the march

 

-The warden not attacking Morrigan in Redcliffe after having expressed the desire to want to kill her (dialogue option)  was a plot armor Gaider gave to Morrigan.Unlike the others DA characters Morrigan received plenty of plot armors across several games this is not even the only one.

 

 

-Anyway if the ritual is refused then it is refused because Morrigan can't do anything in the situation i don't understand why you are dancing in headcanons?

[Natureguy85]

I like that there's room for player interpretation in Loghain "last hitting" the Archdemon, just as there would be for Joe Fereldan citizen. I see that as his execution more than redemption.

 

 

 

 

 

That's cool enough.. You didn't have to love it or anything...but at least you're giving them credit.

 

I think there were a lot of complaints. And lots of George Lucas "You ruined my childhood" type of stuff specifically. And unfortunately, death threats on one of the writers as well (Jen Hepler). Death threats on her family too. The man-children weren't happy.

 

There will always be nutjobs.

[Aren]

I like that there's room for player interpretation in Loghain "last hitting" the Archdemon, just as there would be for Joe Fereldan citizen. I see that as his execution more than redemption.

 

 

 

An execution with possible (I'm not sure) soul annihilation.

And drunk Alistair is still upset in DA2....

[Natureguy85]

 

An execution with possible (I'm not sure) soul annihilation.

And drunk Alistair is still upset in DA2....

 

 

I think you're right. IIRC, the two souls annihilate each other. Actually, that's a good point that I think we often forget about. The sacrificed Warden doesn't just die, their soul is destroyed, meaning no afterlife, if there is one. (That's something I don't remember for this setting, or if we ever know.)

[ThomasBlaine]

It seems you are trying push some kind of your own personal RP or headcanon for being objective history. Sorry to say it but the Warden protagonist in DAO is kind of a cookie cutter ''Chosen One'' story, whether you like it or not.

 

Loghain's is recognized as traitor and disgrace, doesn't matter which ending you choose. His Legacy can be salvaged a bit by last hiting the AD,for those players that think he deserve  it. I think he does.

The random gossip npcs and inn keepers are all the same in the game and location doesn't matter, afaik.

 

Uhm, no, it seems like you're trying to push your own personal empowerment fantasy as objective history. Dragon Age Origins might play a bit with straight fantasy, but it isn't a "cookie cutter chosen one story" by any measure and pretending that it is because you just have to have your epic hero is to disrespect the humanity and intricacy of the actual setting and the actual characters, not to mention the suspension of disbelief, which is exactly the kind of thinking that makes me want to puke.

 

Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true, buddy. The nobility might have allowed you to execute or recruit him for not toeing the line, but realistically your average Fereldan family would still die of pride and happiness if Loghain Mac Tir asked permission to set up camp on their land while being fairly cautious about inviting Grey Wardens to do the same.

 

I can't find anything to support npc gossip not being scripted by location and am fairly sure I've only heard the same gossip from the same people in every playthrough.

 

 

 

 

-They don't sleep in Redcliffe it is stated in one of Loghain's banter in which he expressed that he has no desire to go to sleep before the march,is  an in game conversation.

 

-The warden not attacking Morrigan in Redcliffe after having expressed the desire to want to kill her (dialogue option)  was a plot armor Gaider gave to Morrigan.The warden can attack her in WH for the same reasons but the PC wasn't allowed to do that in Redcliffe because there were no narrative  tools to escape for Morrigan.

 

-Anyway if the ritual is refused then it is refused because Morrigan can't do anything in the situation i don't understand why you are dancing in pointless headcanons?

 

 

Loghain doesn't go to sleep then, so what? Everybody else most likely does, and I don't see him spending the night carousing downstairs. Morrigan waits for the Warden in his/her appointed bedroom, and the Warden can then immediately find Alistair/Loghain in their own room. A distinct theme of people predictably going to their rooms is at play, and even if Morrigan couldn't outright expect to find one of them alone and unguarded, sticking around in case the opportunity did present itself would still be in her interest.

 

"If the ritual is refused then it is refused because Morrigan can't do anything in the situation" is not an argument, there are obvious things she could have done but chose not to even try despite having everything to gain and very little to lose. I'm just wondering about her reasoning, not "dancing in pointless headcannons" as you so... eloquently put it. Why you take offense at that is frankly beyond me.

[Aren]

I think you're right. IIRC, the two souls annihilate each other. Actually, that's a good point that I think we often forget about. The sacrificed Warden doesn't just die, their soul is destroyed, meaning no afterlife, if there is one. (That's something I don't remember for this setting, or if we ever know.)

 I don't know how the Ultimate sacrifice work.

Under the premises of souls annihilation the DR shouldn't be able to work.

From the several revelations of DAI i'm more inclined to believe that US and DR  are just a matter of  desynchronized or synchronized wills.

 

snip

If the ritual is refused she can't do anything since  the warden is in hostility with her  for the refusal and can call as the general just as easily all the soldiers in the castle to check if she is still around.Your are analyzing  headcanons of  improbable situations.

[Xawer]

snip
 

I don't remember ever saying or insinuating i was a fan of that fantasy. I accept the game for what it is, whatever it is. It just seems to me that you dislike the idea so much that you  overestimate the importance or the popularity of Loghain , while underestimating that of the HoF. In other words bending your view of the events of the game and their results in order for the trope not to work, as an end in itself. Doesn't matter if the game supports that trope or not.

 

Everything in the game points towards nobody really worshiping him anymore after Ostagar and especially after the Landsmeet or after the end of the DAO storyline.

 

Here is a short summary of what we know based on what we see in the games(they were looked into in bigger detail in the previous page):

- nobody is ever belligerent towards you except members of his party, like Howe , or direct subordinates/ in his payroll

- there is a civil war with half the country openly in revolt vs him

- gossips and rumors by commoners slandering him

- Anora's words at the Celebration, after Redemption

- He isn't mentioned in Epilogues

- what people in the DA universe say about these events in DA2 and DAI

 

What is fresh in the minds of the people is the 5th Blight. He remains the hero of the war vs  Orlais , but that's old news at this point and that legacy is overshadowed by his crimes, failure and humiliation, if you don't conscript him in the Wardens and without a Redemption ending.

 

The idea that the common man lives in a balloon of ignorance, shutting his ears and yelling ''la-la-la, Loghain is great'' just doesn't hold.

Both because of what we see in the game and because of common sense.

The Gray Wardens were blamed for Ostagar and the death of the king and almost nobody believed that in the first place,(hence the slander, civil war etc...) But after the Landsmeet pretty much everybody in the whole country knows of Loghain's crimes and defeat.

 

Also i am not sure how '' common'' is the common man in Ferelden. It's not like they are real world early middle ages  serfs.

[Natureguy85]

 

 I don't know how the Ultimate sacrifice work.

Under the premises of souls annihilation the DR shouldn't be able to work.

From the several revelations of DAI i'm more inclined to believe that US and DR  are just a matter of  desynchronized or synchronized wills.

 

 

I didn't play DAI yet so I don't know about that. However, I don't see that the DR shouldn't be able to work. Morrigan specifies that "at this early stage" the child can absorb the essence. So either the child doesn't have its own soul yet or there is something about it that allows them to merge.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Why would you not expect Threnn to join the Inquisition thirteen years later if Loghain was no longer popular?

She only joins at all to get her away from the large number of people who hate Loghain, possibly including King Alistair. (Which doesn't really work out because she still gets reassigned to a less people oriented post due to those views.) If Loghain regains his popularity by killing the Archdemon (as I thought you were asserting) you'd expect her to not join, or at least for a different reason to be given.

 

 

And of course Alistair acts like the HoF is the main hero. Why wouldn't he regardless of Loghain's reputation?

My point was that he acts like everyone ignores his contributions in favor of the Hero's, despite the fact that in a World-State where he can be met as a Warden he serves with distinction and doesn't have a year of tyrannizing Ferelden as a black mark on his record. Which makes it look like the Hero is just that popular, even if that's arguably unrealistic. Though I'll grant that given how Alistair acts most of the time that's not necessarily the best evidence, if that's what you were trying to say.

[Aren]

I didn't play DAI yet so I don't know about that. However, I don't see that the DR shouldn't be able to work. Morrigan specifies that "at this early stage" the child can absorb the essence. So either the child doesn't have its own soul yet or there is something about it that allows them to merge.

Flemeth isn't in any early stage and she has already two souls before she absorb even the one of the ex archdemon which mean that she is handling three souls at the same time.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Flemeth isn't in any early stage and she has already two souls before she absorb even the one of the ex archdemon which mean that she is handling three souls at the same time.

Maybe "two souls cannot exist in one body" isn't the rule, so much as "an Archdemon is not willing to co-exist with another soul, and can't force another soul out?" And the DR works by causing the Old God to cease being an Archdemon? It would explain a lot of the things that seem to contradict the "two souls in one body" rule, and seems to make sense in the context of Flemeth saying "a soul is not forced on the unwilling." And it's not like Riordan or the GW order as a whole would logically have seen anything that would allow them to tell the difference.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

 I don't know how the Ultimate sacrifice work.

Under the premises of souls annihilation the DR shouldn't be able to work.

From the several revelations of DAI i'm more inclined to believe that US and DR  are just a matter of  desynchronized or synchronized wills.

 

If the ritual is refused she can't do anything since  the warden is in hostility with her  for the refusal and can call as the general just as easily all the soldiers in the castle to check if she is still around.Your are analyzing  headcanons of  improbable situations.

 

 

Not a single one of my wardens have ever chased Morrigan off angrily or even thought to have the castle searched for her after she left, so that's beside the point as far as explaining her reasoning is concerned. And again, it's not an improbable situation. It's completely within her power and entirely in line with her agenda, and a pretty obvious thing to do if she cares so much about getting her old god baby. And again, I don't see why you have such a problem with the idea that she could have done it but chose not to.

[Qun00]

Tell me... if Alistair became a drunk and Loghain was sacrificed, who is the Warden ally in Inquisition?

[Aren]

Tell me... if Alistair became a drunk and Loghain was sacrificed, who is the Warden ally in Inquisition?

The moustache man

[Aren]

Not a single one of my wardens have ever chased Morrigan off angrily or even thought to have the castle searched for her after she left, so that's beside the point as far as explaining her reasoning is concerned. And again, it's not an improbable situation. It's completely within her power and entirely in line with her agenda, and a pretty obvious thing to do if she cares so much about getting her old god baby. And again, I don't see why you have such a problem with the idea that she could have done it but chose not to.

that your warden didn't something doesn't mean that the other players warden will do the same and the warden can call all the soldiers they want to patrol the castle and see if she is still around.

[Aren]

Maybe "two souls cannot exist in one body" isn't the rule, so much as "an Archdemon is not willing to co-exist with another soul, and can't force another soul out?" And the DR works by causing the Old God to cease being an Archdemon? It would explain a lot of the things that seem to contradict the "two souls in one body" rule, and seems to make sense in the context of Flemeth saying "a soul is not forced on the unwilling." And it's not like Riordan or the GW order as a whole would logically have seen anything that would allow them to tell the difference.

Cauliflower do the same thing archdemons does every time he pass from one body to another, he force the will of others without any problem and any soul destruction which mean that this forcing upon the will isn't a limit at all if you know how to bypass it.

[Natureguy85]

The moustache man

 

 

[Qun00]

Maybe "two souls cannot exist in one body" isn't the rule, so much as "an Archdemon is not willing to co-exist with another soul, and can't force another soul out?" And the DR works by causing the Old God to cease being an Archdemon? It would explain a lot of the things that seem to contradict the "two souls in one body" rule, and seems to make sense in the context of Flemeth saying "a soul is not forced on the unwilling." And it's not like Riordan or the GW order as a whole would logically have seen anything that would allow them to tell the difference.

Precisely. The wounded archdemon wants to find a host and reshape the latter into a new body. It doesn't want to share.

[ThomasBlaine]

that your warden didn't something doesn't mean that the other players warden will do the same and the warden can call all the soldiers they want to patrol the castle and see if she is still around.

 

Besides the point. Threatening Morrigan's life is one of, what, three possible negative responses to her proposal? Morrigan doesn't attempt to force herself on the other Warden no matter how you react to her, so your potentially hostile reaction simply can't be the deciding factor why.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Tell me... if Alistair became a drunk and Loghain was sacrificed, who is the Warden ally in Inquisition?

Loghain's dead and the Keep doesn't allow me to create a World-State where Loghain was sacrificed at Fort Drakon and Alistair at Adamant. So, probably Stroud.

 

 

Cauliflower do the same thing archdemons does every time he pass from one body to another, he force the will of others without any problem and any soul destruction which mean that this forcing upon the will isn't a limit at all if you know how to bypass it. 

 

Which does raise the question of why Dumat couldn't.

[Aren]

 

 

 

 

Which does raise the question of why Dumat couldn't.

The student has surpassed the teacher or Dumat isn't dead.

[Illegitimus]

I think you're right. IIRC, the two souls annihilate each other. Actually, that's a good point that I think we often forget about. The sacrificed Warden doesn't just die, their soul is destroyed, meaning no afterlife, if there is one. (That's something I don't remember for this setting, or if we ever know.)

 

 

That's a theory.  An untestable one although it is confirmed that an adult can't physically survive Old God possession.