I would be pretty pissed if Kieran showed up again in DA4 or DA5 and then we found out that he is miserable and damaged because of the DR.
Way to make us regret a decision several years after the first game.
The default canon Warden being Dalish Ultimate Sacrifice might have been a hint that it wouldn't turn into a lifesaver somewhere down the line.
Yay for Dragon Age Keep?
I would be pretty pissed if Kieran showed up again in DA4 or DA5 and then we found out that he is miserable and damaged because of the DR.
Way to make us regret a decision several years after the first game.
I wouldn't mind. We knew at the time we didn't know how it was going to turn out.
The default canon Warden being Dalish Ultimate Sacrifice might have been a hint that it wouldn't turn into a lifesaver somewhere down the line.
Yay for Dragon Age Keep?
I regret a few of my decisions for my first character* in retrospect, but I'm not going to edit them. I want to keep playing in the worlds I made. Besides, my worlds are so varied I can probably find a world where I did differently if I don't like the way a decision in my last world played out.
*My first character in Dragon Age: Origins is also the first one I uploaded into Dragon Age: Inquisition, and that's the first world state I'm going to upload into DA4 if applicable.
As for the default canon, I think I remember reading that the rationale for what decisions they picked was that they wanted to close off plot threads that a gamer who has never touched this series before (that being the main group they expect not to import) wouldn't care about. Ultimate Sacrifice is the default because you only care about Kieran if you played Origins.
I regret a few of my decisions for my first character* in retrospect, but I'm not going to edit them. I want to keep playing in the worlds I made. Besides, my worlds are so varied I can probably find a world where I did differently if I don't like the way a decision in my last world played out.
*My first character in Dragon Age: Origins is also the first one I uploaded into Dragon Age: Inquisition, and that's the first world state I'm going to upload into DA4 if applicable.
As for the default canon, I think I remember reading that the rationale for what decisions they picked were that they wanted to close off plot threads that a gamer who has never touched this series before (that being the main group they expect not to import) wouldn't care about. Ultimate Sacrifice is the default because you only care about Kieran if you played Origins.
Same here, except that I replay and make a new canon every few years at least as my understanding of the characters and plots and new ideas for main characters mature, and am not bothered about keeping track of the old ones.
I've only ever used the editing in Dragon Age Keep to skip DAII entirely so I wouldn't have to slug my way through it more than once, although I'm trying to work myself up to giving it one more go when I finish Origins again.
But theoretically, it's a good alternative to potentially having to replay the entire series because of one decision you really, really regret.
The default canon Warden being Dalish Ultimate Sacrifice might have been a hint that it wouldn't turn into a lifesaver somewhere down the line.
Yay for Dragon Age Keep?
You're going to have to give an example of nature somehow deliberately making things difficult for itself for me to take that first part seriously.
It was my impression that the thread is about discussing how different characters might think of the choice differently. If all we've been talking about all along is how you and your "noble Warden" see things then it's no wonder you take it so personally, and have such a problem with people proposing alternate views. And no, in that case I don't give a damn about you either. I am, however, interested in the general range of roleplaying options.
Writing mistake or not, what's explicitly in the game is explicitly in the game. The Ritual takes place on the night before the great battle, and the army travels as quickly as physically possible from Redcliffe to Denerim over the next day. Which makes sense, as the capital is under attack. One day is a little impropable, but a week is way too long. There couldn't possibly have been anything left of Denerim if that timeline was correct, as the army have several times farther to travel than the darkspawn.
You mean debate the whole fundamentals of statistics and physics on a game forum to prove that matters does not simply take the"easiest route" like you claimed and how Pressure,Temperature and Volume can alter a system and influence chemical reactions and in so doing alter this weird "easiest route" concept? Mmmm no....i think i will passYou implied that because an ancestors of a Cousland may had illegitimate sons(not proved anywhere whatsoever) the warden should be influenced and that just doesn't make sense.What others do or did doesn't influence what the warden want to do,by the way who is this unknown Cousland ancestors who had illegitimate sons?It doesn't even exist for our knowledge.
Obviously a chemical process can be manipulated by, essentially, enabling an even easier route for the matter to follow than the natural one. Which it will then do utterly reliably because everything takes the path of least resistance and that's how the physical world works on its most basic level, and what humans have learned to exploit to our own benefit. This is a really stupid thing for you to categorically disagree with me on. 
And statistics is a metaphysical concept, not a physical phenomenon, I don't even want to know why you think it's relevant to this argument.
Actually, I was implying that a Cousland Warden who had a personal history of sleeping around, which is supported if you choose the right dialogue with Fergus, might already have several bastards s/he doesn't care about. Don't even start arguing that there are no precedents of that kind of behaviour in young noblemen. And why do you keep acting like I'm trying to tell you how to play your own Warden? All I'm saying is that it's a valid roleplaying angle for Cousland Wardens in general.
The DR is not performed the night before the battle it is a writing mistake in the dialogue and Gaider admitted it that he did not fixed the dialogue in time.http://forum.bioware...tual/?bioware=1 You can't travel from Redcliffe to Denerim in one day
I'm not denying that it's a writing mistake, I'm denying that it isn't canon. Morrigan explicitly says that the Ritual takes place the night before the battle, and it's never explicitly stated that you can't get to Denerim from Redcliffe in a day. Thus it's a plot point of strained credibility but can nonetheless be considered canon. And for the purposes of the actual topic, even assuming that the trip takes a week the little bundle of cells that is Kieran is lucky to have hit Morrigan's uterine wall and started implamentation by the time it's enhanced by the old god soul, which serves my point just as well. A child isn't even considered a fetus until ten weeks in.
Obviously a chemical process can be manipulated by, essentially, enabling an even easier route for the matter to follow than the natural one. Which it will then do utterly reliably because everything takes the path of least resistance and that's how the physical world works on its most basic level, and what humans have learned to exploit to our own benefit. This is a really stupid thing for you to categorically disagree with me on.
I'm not denying that it's a writing mistake, I'm denying that it isn't canon. Morrigan explicitly says that the Ritual takes place the night before the battle, and it's never explicitly stated that you can't get to Denerim from Redcliffe in a day. Thus it's a plot point of strained credibility but can nonetheless be considered canon. And for the purposes of the actual topic, even assuming that the trip takes a week the little bundle of cells that is Kieran is lucky to have hit Morrigan's uterine wall and started implamentation by the time it's enhanced by the old god soul, which serves my point just as well. A child isn't even considered a fetus until ten weeks in.
I don't know what you mean by canon that the developers misspelled a line that was not fixed later?
It's like saying a bug is canon because it was not fixed but that has nothing to do with the validity of the statement.
The DR takes at least two weeks to be completed and that a child is not a fetus after x amount of time is a moot point becasue i may as well say that if she slept with the warden that child was already conceived long before Redclieffe.
The whole argument has nothing to do with the thread nonetheless just to make that clear.There is no easy or hard route for matter but just the probabilities that an event will occur based on a variety of factors(gravity,entalpy,entropy,volume,pressure,temperature,magnetism ecc..) that may operate into the system that is took into consideration.Without statistic and mathemaics you can't develop the foundamentals tools that desribe how the particles behave under all those interactions and iterations. which determine the probability for an event to happenWhat you said seem more akin to high school generalization-knowledge.
The argument is relevant to the question of whether the taint is more likely to be behaving according to its own set of natural laws or some belligerent intelligence, which in turn pertains to how much difficulty a layman would have in understanding it.
How predictable a physical process is to a person can be thought of as a matter of probability, yes, because people aren't always capable of recognizing every factor at play beforehand. How the process actually turns out is entirely decided and determined by factors that are present from the start, and the process couldn't possibly go any other way unless those facors were changed. Every physical scenario in the universe has exactly one outcome, which is the path of least resistance according to one metaphor and nature's course according to another.
That isn't a generalization, that's the stone-cold fact modern physics is built on. Mathmatics is the discovery and gradual definition of those exact mechanics and their relationships. Statistics is a tool specifically invented to help people wrap their heads around large amounts of circumstances and outcomes using a few principles crudely borrowed from mathmatics, and so obviously isn't subject to and doesn't affect physical laws in and of itself.
And I wouldn't throw stones about statements that sound like "high school-generalization knowledge" if I were you. You're very obviously flailing.
I don't know what you mean by canon that the developers misspelled a line that was not fixed later?It's like saying a bug is canon because it was not fixed but that has nothing to do with the validity of the statement.
The DR takes at least two weeks to be completed and that a child is not a fetus after x amount of time is a moot point becasue i may as well say that if she slept with the warden that child was already conceived long before Redclieffe.
It's actually more like saying that artists don't have the right to show up in museums all over the world and vandalize their works after having sold them just in order to make them look closer to what they first intended. Which is also, you know, the law.
You can definitely say that your old god baby was conceived long before Redcliffe. But as nothing in the game explicitly supports that you can't make that claim for the rest of us, and so it doesn't render the point moot at all, no. I'm also still curious where you have the idea of two weeks - which is moot in this context - from.
But theoretically, it's a good alternative to potentially having to replay the entire series because of one decision you really, really regret.
The Dark Ritual really earns its name.
No matter how much the Warden believes it was the right thing to do, this will always be his dirty secret. It must be kept from his friends, the Order, everyone.
What would his companions think if they knew that he agreed to turn an innocent child into a different kind of abomination in order to save his own skin? I think only Shale wouldn't have a problem with that and maybe Zevran.
And the Grey Wardens would at least kick him out for allowing the risk of another Blight. As far as they know, the Old God soul can become tainted again.
Leliana knows about this if you romanced her and did the ritual when you talk to her about Morrigan after WEWH.
Leliana knows about this if you romanced her and did the ritual when you talk to her about Morrigan after WEWH.
There is also another problem and that is why does the Old God soul needs saving ? Before tainted, the Old Gods of Tevinter were, in many ways, responsible for many of Tevinter's atrocities such as the destruction of Arlathan, the attempt to enter the Black City which let the Blight loose, etc...
Why would you, especially if you play as an Elf or a Dwarf Warden ? The Old Gods were partially responsible for f*cking your people over in some way.
There is also the fact that Solas might have access to Urthemiel's soul at the end of DAI and since he wants to wreck everything to return things to the pre-Veil days, the last thing we want is to give him more power.
Oh right, I remember now. But I don't know... that seems kinda OOC for Leliana.
What are the odds that she knows how the ritual was done? Maybe "Morrigan did some magicky thing and saved the Warden" is the full extent of her knowledge.
Just the nutshell, I'd believe.
There is also another problem and that is why does the Old God soul needs saving ? Before tainted, the Old Gods of Tevinter were, in many ways, responsible for many of Tevinter's atrocities such as the destruction of Arlathan, the attempt to enter the Black City which let the Blight loose, etc...
Why would you, especially if you play as an Elf or a Dwarf Warden ? The Old Gods were partially responsible for f*cking your people over in some way.
There is also the fact that Solas might have access to Urthemiel's soul at the end of DAI and since he wants to wreck everything to return things to the pre-Veil days, the last thing we want is to give him more power.
How about "I don't want to die"?
How about "I don't want to die"?
The Dark Ritual really earns its name.
No matter how much the Warden believes it was the right thing to do, this will always be his dirty secret. It must be kept from his friends, the Order, everyone.
What would his companions think if they knew that he agreed to turn an innocent child into a different kind of abomination in order to save his own skin? I think only Shale wouldn't have a problem with that and maybe Zevran.
And the Grey Wardens would at least kick him out for allowing the risk of another Blight. As far as they know, the Old God soul can become tainted again.
1) Why is the spirit that you save from the taint an abomination? Kieran isn't turned into a monster. On the contrary. He's a perfectly normal child who hosts a purified bit of soul inside him, which is then taken from him by Flemeth later on.
2) The assumption that every Warden does the DR for selfish reasons is wrong. Some Wardens do it because consider Morrigan and Flemeth to know more about the old magic surrounding the taint, the Archdemon and the darkspawn better than the Wardens, with their stark philosophy and their hermetic magical rituals whose origins are now forgotten in the sands of time.
Other Wardens do it because they want to help preserve whatever spiritual creature is contained within those Old Gods. They are ancient and powerful magical creatures. That's what Dragon Age is about: magic and wondrous things. Shouldn't something like that be rescued from the darkness and preserved?
And other Wardens do the DR because they do not wish to see Alistair die. If you don't sacrifice yourself,he does. And they don't want that. Either because they love Alistair or wish for him to become king in order to balance Anora's political ambitions.
3) The Wardens regularly perform blood magic rites that are punishable by DEATH right under the nose of the Chantry authority. The Wardens also happen to lie to recruits all the time and feel entitled to kill them should they refuse the Joining.
So on what moral grounds will they judge and condemn the HoF for aiding an actual mage that DOES know WHAT an Old God is, WHAT kind of magic is involved in its creation and how to best tackle the problem of dealing with the Archdemon, with the bonus of avoiding the senseless waste of lives, something the Wardens have horribly failed at for centuries?
Other Wardens do it because they want to help preserve whatever spiritual creature is contained within those Old Gods. They are ancient and powerful magical creatures. That's what Dragon Age is about: magic and wondrous things. Shouldn't something like that be rescued from the darkness and preserved?
Being magical and wondrous is not correlated to being worth preserving. The spirit of Wisdom from All New, Faded For Her is magical and wondrous, and it is worth preserving. The dragon cult of Haven is magical and wondrous, and the world is better off without them. We don't directly see enough of what Urthemiel is to know which category to put him under, but that he apparently led his high priest into the Black City and so created the Architect seems like it might be a hint.
So on what moral grounds will they judge and condemn the HoF for aiding an actual mage that DOES know WHAT an Old God is, WHAT kind of magic is involved in its creation and how to best tackle the problem of dealing with the Archdemon, with the bonus of avoiding the senseless waste of lives, something the Wardens have horribly failed at for centuries?
The Wardens know their Ritual works. It has four times before. The Warden is basically taking Morrigan's word that this will, and we don't have the option of asking her how she knows it will work. It'd be one thing if Morrigan could demonstrate that Flemeth was possessed by Mythal: that would give you some reason to think someone involved in this knew what she was talking about. As it is, the Warden has some room to wonder just where Morrigan and Flemeth are getting all of this.
Being magical and wondrous is not correlated to being worth preserving. The spirit of Wisdom from All New, Faded For Her is magical and wondrous, and it is worth preserving. The dragon cult of Haven is magical and wondrous, and the world is better off without them. We don't directly see enough of what Urthemiel is to know which category to put him under, but that he apparently led his high priest into the Black City and so created the Architect seems like it might be a hint.
Nothing to do with him. He was never in the Black City and apparently wasn't even conscious.
Nothing to do with him. He was never in the Black City and apparently wasn't even conscious.
Well, Andrastian PCs probably don't believe that, though a Dalish Elf might or dwarf might. And the PC doesn't even have the option to ask Morrigan about that as far as I remember. And while your PC doesn't know this, WoT apparently confirms that Urthemiel was able to give his support to the Black City plan.
Being magical and wondrous is not correlated to being worth preserving. The spirit of Wisdom from All New, Faded For Her is magical and wondrous, and it is worth preserving. The dragon cult of Haven is magical and wondrous, and the world is better off without them. We don't directly see enough of what Urthemiel is to know which category to put him under, but that he apparently led his high priest into the Black City and so created the Architect seems like it might be a hint.
The Wardens know their Ritual works. It has four times before. The Warden is basically taking Morrigan's word that this will, and we don't have the option of asking her how she knows it will work. It'd be one thing if Morrigan could demonstrate that Flemeth was possessed by Mythal: that would give you some reason to think someone involved in this knew what she was talking about. As it is, the Warden has some room to wonder just where Morrigan and Flemeth are getting all of this.
Yes, we do, later in the series. It's a piece of soul that belongs to an Evanuris. Very likely to Flemeth herself.
She's trying to purify a bit of her soul that was stored inside a high dragon and that was corrupted by the taint. No wonder she risked sending the most precious thing to her, her own daughter, Morrigan, to accomplish such task.
That's why Flemeth helps the Wardens. It's in her interest to help you get to the Archdemon, even at the risk of seeing the creature slain by them and the bit of soul inside it lost forever.
If you don't think saving Flemeth's soul is worth it, it's within your right as a player. But you do know Flemeth never did anything to harm your character -QUITE the contrary -, much less does the DR have ANY negative consequences to the Wardens. For the game to call it a Dark Ritual is plain stupid, since it's a magic rite made to conceive a life and purify a soul. Its name should be Purification Ritual, Ritual of Renewal or something similar. Therefore, accusing Morrigan of deceiving you forsome sordid selfish reason of her own is unfair. She's not an evil witch trying to take advantage of you. She's simply a mage born of a very powerful ancient mage who has found a way to both help save the world from a great evil (the fifth Archdemon) - at a smaller cost (spare the Wardens of the Ultimate Sacrifice) and to solve her problem of recovering a fragment of her soul.
Plus, we also know the taint might've been created in Arlathan, since its capital has become the Black City, where the Magisters became infected with it for the first time. No wonder Flemeth knows a great deal about it and came up with the Dark Ritual. She KNOWS how the taint works, UNLIKE the Wardens, who obviously no longer have no idea what the taint is and are desperatedly grasping at straws to deal with a magical enemy they know next to nothing about. And if that includes making insane demands such as forcing people to drink infected blood, become infertile live only up to 30 years and give up their lives, so be it.
That's all there is to it. The player can choose to make an informed choice or stay on the path of ignorance by following the Wardens' tradition out of a misplaced sense of honour.
Guess what would be the right choice if the Wardens of today knew anything about the taint at all...
1) Why is the spirit that you save from the taint an abomination? Kieran isn't turned into a monster. On the contrary. He's a perfectly normal child who hosts a purified bit of soul inside him, which is then taken from him by Flemeth later on.
2) The assumption that every Warden does the DR for selfish reasons is wrong. Some Wardens do it because consider Morrigan and Flemeth to know more about the old magic surrounding the taint, the Archdemon and the darkspawn better than the Wardens, with their stark philosophy and their hermetic magical rituals whose origins are now forgotten in the sands of time.
Other Wardens do it because they want to help preserve whatever spiritual creature is contained within those Old Gods. They are ancient and powerful magical creatures. That's what Dragon Age is about: magic and wondrous things. Shouldn't something like that be rescued from the darkness and preserved?
And other Wardens do the DR because they do not wish to see Alistair die. If you don't sacrifice yourself,he does. And they don't want that. Either because they love Alistair or wish for him to become king in order to balance Anora's political ambitions.
3) The Wardens regularly perform blood magic rites that are punishable by DEATH right under the nose of the Chantry authority. The Wardens also happen to lie to recruits all the time and feel entitled to kill them should they refuse the Joining.
So on what moral grounds will they judge and condemn the HoF for aiding an actual mage that DOES know WHAT an Old God is, WHAT kind of magic is involved in its creation and how to best tackle the problem of dealing with the Archdemon, with the bonus of avoiding the senseless waste of lives, something the Wardens have horribly failed at for centuries?
Yes, we do, later in the series. It's a piece of soul that belongs to an Evanuris. Very likely to Flemeth herself.
She's trying to purify a bit of her soul that was stored inside a high dragon and that was corrupted by the taint. No wonder she risked sending the most precious thing to her, her own daughter, Morrigan, to accomplish such task.
That's why Flemeth helps the Wardens. It's in her interest to help you get to the Archdemon, even at the risk of seeing the creature slain by them and the bit of soul inside it lost forever.
Where are you getting all of this?
If you don't think saving Flemeth's soul is worth it, it's within your right as a player. But you do know Flemeth never did anything to harm your character -QUITE the contrary -, much less does the DR have ANY negative consequences to the Wardens. For the game to call it a Dark Ritual is plain stupid, since it's a magic rite made to conceive a life and purify a soul. Its name should be Purification Ritual, Ritual of Renewal or something similar. Therefore, accusing Morrigan of deceiving you forsome sordid selfish reason of her own is unfair. She's not an evil witch trying to take advantage of you. She's simply a mage born of a very powerful ancient mage who has found a way to both help save the world from a great evil (the fifth Archdemon) - at a smaller cost (spare the Wardens of the Ultimate Sacrifice) and to solve her problem of recovering a fragment of her soul.
Well the thing is, all Morrigan actually tells you is that she intends to take the child and give you no say in how its raised. She doesn't tell you what she plans to do with it or its power. So you have no real reason to believe that she's not an evil witch witch trying to deceive you for some sordid selfish reason of her own. And if we're willing to metagame for a second Morrigan freely admits in Inquisition that she started as that only to have raising Kieran change her.
That's all there is to it. The player can choose to make an informed choice or stay on the path of ignorance by following the Wardens' tradition out of a misplaced sense of honour.
I think you're being rather unfair to those players who choose not to use knowledge they have that their character doesn't.
1) Even as a host to a benevolent being, which is debatable concerning the Old Gods, you still lose something. Flemeth has given up part of the woman she once was and effectively became Mythal.
Likewise, I don't believe Kieran's identity would remain intact if he were to spend his whole life as Urthemiel's host. The two would continue to merge until it is impossible to tell where one ends and the other begins, just like Anders/Justice.
There is also another problem and that is why does the Old God soul needs saving ? Before tainted, the Old Gods of Tevinter were, in many ways, responsible for many of Tevinter's atrocities such as the destruction of Arlathan, the attempt to enter the Black City which let the Blight loose, etc...
Why would you, especially if you play as an Elf or a Dwarf Warden ? The Old Gods were partially responsible for f*cking your people over in some way.
There is also the fact that Solas might have access to Urthemiel's soul at the end of DAI and since he wants to wreck everything to return things to the pre-Veil days, the last thing we want is to give him more power.
Kill the beast and kill the witch!
How about "I don't want to die"?
World security is more important than the life of a single grey warden.
Retour en haut