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[Lotion Soronarr]

And you actaully belive Morrigan? I'm sure her definition of "hurt" is purely physical.



After all, look how defensive and loud she is whe Flemeth wants to take over her body. And now she wants something else to take over your childs body? Something potentially very dngerous?



Only a moron could consider that good in any way.

[Ulicus]

Some of my characters believe her, some of them don't.

In either case, none of them presume to know the full story.

Again, where's the evidence for anything "taking over" the child's body? That may be what happens - I wouldn't be too surprised - but it's not what she says will happen. She says the child will be "changed" and that the "ancient power" of the Old God will be reborn. You can say "But she might be lying!" until you're blue in the face and you may well be right... but you can't infer from that anything you like.

Suspect that the Old God may destroy the original soul, by all means. Speculate that such will happen. Just don't try to tell me that it is definitely the case... because it's not.

Besides, as I've already pointed out, as far as Thedas is concerned, we cannot assume that there's a soul that exists the minute a child is conceived.  I don't believe we have any information either way on that point. It may even be the fact that unborn children ARE soulless that allows for the child "at this early stage" to survive.

Modifié par Ulicus, 02 décembre 2009 - 01:47 .

[voidcommander9111980]

Its a wise act



And that means you stay alive - plus you become a god



and your lovely wife morrigan be as much powerfull as you



Now about my son ... i dont know heh (Evil grin)



Joker out

[Curlain]

Well what makes me think this is a major case of short-sightedness is Morrigan refuses to tell you anything about what she intends with this child or it's purpose. That alone is suspicious, and it means you're really shooting blind with this decision, without any idea what could result from it. We know nothing about what the Old Gods are, what their motives are (particulary after being trapped underground for so long and being tainted), what they can do etc.



It's the classic messing with powers you know nothing about, and usually that turns out to be a bad idea in most stories (and to a degree in rl) , if Morrigan told you more (and you thought you could believe her) then you would have more to base your decision on, but we don't. So allot of assumtions that an Old god could be a good thing, or a balance is just that, an assumption without any basis. The only thing we do know about Old Gods is the Tenvinter Imperium worshipped them, and however bad Chantry led nations get, the Imperium magisters hardly seemed the most upstanding guys in the world (and this view comes not just from the Chantry, the Dalish elves also quite independently have a low view of the Imperium which is a history completely independent from the Chantry line).



Now of course how worshippers act does not always reflect the truth of the god(s) they profess to follow (both rl examples and ingame Chantry examples could be given) but they do universal seem to have been generally jerks to anyone not both magically inclined and a Tenvinter (they actually seem to have been Thedas' version of the Roman Empire). But with them as our only real insight into Old Gods (or at least Old God followers) it doesn't improve the idea that an Old God returned will be a good thing.



So yeah, I think that the decision is definitely understandable (who wants to die, particularly if your character never really choice to be a Grey Warden in the first place), but yes it is a short-sighted decision due to the PC's total lack of knowledge on what Old Gods are, and Morrigan's refusal to reveal anything about them

[Ulicus]

Well, she tells you that the child will "represent freedom" and, given her previously espoused opinion that "Apostate = Freedom", I would hazard a guess that her intention is to liberate magic users or something.

My current wager? The Godchild is going to be "Mage Moses", demanding that the Chantry "let my people go" with a hefty dose of the Dionysian thrown in.

Either that or s/he'll go around outright destroying Circle Towers and "free" Magic from the Chantry in that way.

Maybe it'll depend on whether or not you convinced Morrigan that saving the Circle Tower was worthwhile, or not.

Modifié par Ulicus, 02 décembre 2009 - 01:54 .

[Erasculio]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
After all, look how defensive and loud she is whe Flemeth wants to take over her body. And now she wants something else to take over your childs body? Something potentially very dngerous?

Only a moron could consider that good in any way.

I think the really moronic behavior is to ignore how powerful would be a god who's against the darspawn and would have extremely good reasons to destroy them. Of course, the mages could become abominations, so we better kill them all, right? And those elves could think about betraying the humans, so we might kill them all too, right? I mean, not doing so would obviously be "selfish". Making allies is obviously very "evil"...From a stupid's point of view.

[FedericoV]

On another note to my previous post. I stated that I do not believe that it's selfish or evil to perform the dark ritual. If there's a moral behind DA:O is that there is no good or evil. Every choice you make is a mix between good and evil, you have to chose the lesser evil and the consequences of good actions are not allways the best one (see the outcome in Orzamar if you choose Harrowmont).

So, we do not know. Maybe Morrigain's Dark Ritual is the only hope for Thedas.

Having said that I admit that it could be shortsighted for a Warden. At the end, you're doomed. Sooner or later you are going to die because of the taint. You do not know the outcome of Morrigain ritual but you do know what a corrupted old god is capable to do. So, killing him dying in the process seems the safer bet (but not necessarly the best one for Thedas).

Modifié par FedericoV, 02 décembre 2009 - 02:50 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

FedericoV wrote...

On another note to my previous post. I stated that I do not believe that it's selfish or evil to perform the dark ritual. If there's a moral behind DA:O is that there is no good or evil. Every choice you make is a mix between good and evil, you have to chose the lesser evil and the consequences of good actions are not allways the best one (see the outcome in Orzamar if you choose Harrowmont).

So, we do not know. Maybe Morrigain's Dark Ritual is the only hope for Thedas.

Having said that I admit that it could be shortsighted for a Warden. At the end, you're doomed. Sooner or later you are going to die because of the taint. You do not know the outcome of Morrigain ritual but you do know what a corrupted old god is capable to do. So, killing him dying in the process seems the safer bet (but not necessarly the best one for Thedas).

On the other hand, you know that after the battle there are two possible outcomes:
a) The Archdemon won - so there is no actual dark ritual, just a warden's child.
You killed the Archdemon - so if he's to come again, chances are he'll be defeated again. Especially considering that both you and Alistair were novice wardens.
So I think not accepting Morrigan's offer should be considered "slow play" - too cautious and not taking the opportunity. Provided that your character trusts Morrigan, of course.

[alexandros777]

I don't know, the god-child provides something completely new. It seems far too interesting to not explore. It wouldn't matter to me nor my character if the side effect of the ritualwas surviving the ending of the blight.







Ferelden needs a shake up of a different sort. Maybe a swift kick to the establishment should be just the thing.

[FedericoV]

Yep, at the end I do agree.



In terms of roleplay it all comes down to a question of trust between you and Morrigain. Do you believe that Morrigain is a evil and scheming ****? Or that she is a just a sad girl who is doing her best to survive against all odds? Do you believe that she really loves you or not? Is she able to love someone without using him in the process?



If you are RP the romance with Morrigain then you would have reasons to believe her and perform the ritual.



Btw, I think that the Dark Ritual ending with Alistair King and Anora Queen will be the starting point of DA:O 2 (maybe you'll have your old charachter, that maybe has worked to reorganize the Warden in Ferelden... and maybe you will use all the items like the pie or the pot like the golden pantaloons in BG II ).

[RunCDFirst]

Why won't anyone think of the children?!



I mean, honestly, even if you sympathize with Morrigan you must blame Flemeth for her obvious... short comings and skewed moral perspective. With Flemeth being her only role model, do you honestly think she could raise a well adjusted child who could potentially have the power of a Tevinter God?



Seriously?!



It doesn't matter what Morrigan's intentions are, she is ill suited to raising dirt. Morrigan constantly displays a general sense of immaturity throughout the entire game, plus a very firm disgust towards her fellow man. If you think she cares about this child, you're crazy. If you think she's going to have this child accomplish any 'good', you're crazy. If you think this idea is for the greater good of the world, you're crazy.



But, if you want to save your and/or Alistair's hide, then at least you're rational. Any other motive then self preservation is a delusion.

[SirValar]

Considering the fact those lofty wardens never left me any choice in wether I WANTED to be part of their pathetic little order I must say I had absolutely no trouble at all with this option.



They are free to seek me out and object though, I need a few wardens to continue Avernus's research

[Alex Savchovsky]

RunCDFirst wrote...

I mean, honestly, even if you sympathize with Morrigan you must blame Flemeth for her obvious... short comings and skewed moral perspective. With Flemeth being her only role model, do you honestly think she could raise a well adjusted child who could potentially have the power of a Tevinter God?

Depends on your definition of "well adjusted". Well adjusted to what? 
Society? I think a being of such power should not interfere with society at all. The temptation to use that power "for good" would be too great to overcome. Which would eventually end up in modeling the society to fit your vision. The shorter word for this is "tyranny".
You should first answer the question "what would that child need to know?" before stating that Morrigan is inappropriate choice.

[Whailor]

Grey Warden tribunal and what? Heck what do I care as a Grey Warden what others think or assume. I'd be stupid to not use a way out of a silly "clause" a la "Oh, by the way, to save the world you have to die!" What the, sod the world then, I'll find my place anywhere. So when Morrigan comes up with such a proposition, I will obviously take it (well, done it already in most play-throughs) and won't give an archdemon's spit as to what Duncan (if he'd be alive) or Riordian would say. Heck they already shortened my life with that "drink tainted blood and save the world" routine. And I save the world in the end, so that's where my "duty" ends. Sodding wannabe holier-then-thou ideals and what not, where I'd have to croak and they'd all live happily ever after. Don't care that much about the world.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Has anyone even considered the fact that the child may not be immortal, has an old gods soul true but will grow old and die like any other mortal, so it may not matter otherwise

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Why won't anyone think of the children?!

I mean, honestly, even if you sympathize with Morrigan you must blame Flemeth for her obvious... short comings and skewed moral perspective. With Flemeth being her only role model, do you honestly think she could raise a well adjusted child who could potentially have the power of a Tevinter God?

Seriously?!

It doesn't matter what Morrigan's intentions are, she is ill suited to raising dirt. Morrigan constantly displays a general sense of immaturity throughout the entire game, plus a very firm disgust towards her fellow man. If you think she cares about this child, you're crazy. If you think she's going to have this child accomplish any 'good', you're crazy. If you think this idea is for the greater good of the world, you're crazy.

But, if you want to save your and/or Alistair's hide, then at least you're rational. Any other motive then self preservation is a delusion.

I agree that Morrigan is ill suited to raising a child.  I'll disagree that she doesn't care, she's just very immature.  I can believe in her intentions with it, while at the same time firmly believing she should not care for it... alone.

And that's my sequel hook.

[RunCDFirst]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Depends on your definition of "well adjusted". Well adjusted to what? 
Society? I think a being of such power should not interfere with society at all. The temptation to use that power "for good" would be too great to overcome. Which would eventually end up in modeling the society to fit your vision. The shorter word for this is "tyranny".
You should first answer the question "what would that child need to know?" before stating that Morrigan is inappropriate choice.

Well, unless we want Old Testament rains of blood or plagues of frogs, compassion might be a good start.

But now we're just getting silly. Anyone that thinks Morrigan would make a good mother should never enter parenthood.

Though, I guess she may care about the child. Not enough to have it raised properly but... I suppose in her own way she could... conceivably care for it.

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 02 décembre 2009 - 06:48 .

[eschilde]

FedericoV wrote...

On another note to my previous post. I stated that I do not believe that it's selfish or evil to perform the dark ritual. If there's a moral behind DA:O is that there is no good or evil. Every choice you make is a mix between good and evil, you have to chose the lesser evil and the consequences of good actions are not allways the best one (see the outcome in Orzamar if you choose Harrowmont).

I agree that it's not evil, you can't be evil without the intention, but it sure as hell is selfish. The tried and true way is known to the Wardens, they _know_ you have to sacrifice something to kill the archdemon for good. The main reason for doing the ritual with Morrigan is to save your own and Loghain/Alistair's life.

That said, you could argue that taking the archdemon kb for yourself for glory is selfish, too. Wanting to become a martyr can be considered selfish, wanting to be remembered in tales and songs after your death can be considered selfish, etc etc. It's just easier to look at the dark ritual and point out that it has unknown and likely negative consequences.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ulicus wrote...
*SNIP*

Really?...REALLY?

You're contradicting yourself here. First you talk abut there being no souls and trusting Morrigan, but it is Morrigan who sez that the soul of the Old God will enter the child. What is that but possesion?

God, some pople can be so blind when thy want to.

The riutual is practilcy baby murder, no matter how you want to spin it differently.

Not to mention that given your total lack of knowledge of what Morrigan wants to do with it or how dangeros the child will be, callibng this decision wise is the biggest joke of the century.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:49 .

[RunCDFirst]

eschilde wrote...

I agree that it's not evil, you can't be evil without the intention, but it sure as hell is selfish. The tried and true way is known to the Wardens, they _know_ you have to sacrifice something to kill the archdemon for good. The main reason for doing the ritual with Morrigan is to save your own and Loghain/Alistair's life.

I think the topic of discussion is whether the dark ritual is selfish. To which, there really isn't any other way to paint it. It's an incredibly selfish choice.

That said, you could argue that taking the archdemon kb for yourself for glory is selfish, too. Wanting to become a martyr can be considered selfish, wanting to be remembered in tales and songs after your death can be considered selfish, etc etc. It's just easier to look at the dark ritual and point out that it has unknown and likely negative consequences.

We need more selfishness like that.

[eschilde]

RunCDFirst wrote...


We need more selfishness like that.

In real life, this sometimes translates to such acts as 9/11. Martyrdom is scary in some cases.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Erasculio wrote...
I think the really moronic behavior is to ignore how powerful would be a god who's against the darspawn and would have extremely good reasons to destroy them. Of course, the mages could become abominations, so we better kill them all, right? And those elves could think about betraying the humans, so we might kill them all too, right? I mean, not doing so would obviously be "selfish". Making allies is obviously very "evil"...From a stupid's point of view.

I think it's moronic to just assume you'll be able to control a entity that powerfull.
And the rest of your arguments are strawmen, since they don't really compare in the first palce.

Mages can be extreely dangerous, but they are a known variable and safeties are in place (templars).
You know nothing of how dangerous an Old God could be, nothing of Morrigans plans with it. In fact, everything you do know points that it's a bad idea.

Too many unknowns, too many risks, no control.

[eschilde]

Captain Cosmos wrote...

Has anyone even considered the fact that the child may not be immortal, has an old gods soul true but will grow old and die like any other mortal, so it may not matter otherwise

It might be. It might not be. It hardly matters in this discussion what its lifespan may be, simply because of all the other unknowns. It might be born with a short lifespan having been tainted in the past, or it may be born with a long lifespan. More important than that is what Morrigan intends to use the child for, what kind of powers it may have access to, what kind of memories it may have. Even if it has a short lifespan, there's huge potential for something big to happen with this kid, good or bad, who knows?

Edit: Take Connor as an example. Kid was what, 10 years old? And almost managed to zombify a village. 

Modifié par eschilde, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:04 .

[RunCDFirst]

eschilde wrote...

In real life, this sometimes translates to such acts as 9/11. Martyrdom is scary in some cases.

That's not so much a problem with martyrdom as it is with conditioning and propaganda. But that is neither here nor there and the archdemon isn't a giant pair of trade buildings.

[Taleroth]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You know nothing of how dangerous an Old God could be

How powerful could it be?  Two rookie Wardens, an old maid, and a bard can take one down.