1807 réponses à ce sujet

[twincast]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The riutual is practilcy baby murder, no matter how you want to spin it differently.

The baby in question only coming into being because of the ritual to begin with, so even if you believe something dies, it's a zero-sum calculation at worst.

[eschilde]

RunCDFirst wrote...

eschilde wrote...

In real life, this sometimes translates to such acts as 9/11. Martyrdom is scary in some cases.

That's not so much a problem with martyrdom as it is with conditioning and propaganda. But that is neither here nor there and the archdemon isn't a giant pair of trade buildings.

Agreed, it was just an example one could argue as martyrdom :S in any case, it's pretty easy to say killing the archdemon yourself is the selfless way to go.

[Vicious]

I was personally quite livid that the Grey Wardens didn't tell me jack sh!t about the sacrifices I'd have to make.



Seriously, if Duncan was up front and told me even AFTER I drank the blood, it would have been better.



But nope, He kept his mouth shut, died. I had to prod Alistair to find out I only have some 30 years to live. And on top of that I',m not told until the ELEVENTH HOUR I have to die to end the Blight.





So hell yeah I made the selfish choice. Seems to me if the Grey Wardens had showed me any courtesy or respect They would have told me what I faced as soon as I became a member, and i could have made peace with my fate Instead they decide to pile it on literally the DAY BEFORE I go to face the Archdemon.



Jackasses.

[RunCDFirst]

Damn that Duncan! How dare he die on you!

[mrao]

Too many unknowns, too many risks, no control.

This is what it comes down to in the end. Its meant to be a selfish decision, generally the reason people do it is to live with their love interest. While I was annoyed at the lack of explanation for what the ritual is really for, I think we are meant to be left with the sense of restlessness and anticipation, even after the archdemon is dead. It makes the final victory seem hollow, perhaps temporary, as you have no idea what you might have created the night before.

It certainly was effective, at least in making me really anxious to know what happens next.

[eschilde]

Well, Alistair explains in a couple of places what it was like to be around the Grey Wardens.. I mean, at Ostagar, you don't even get a chance to meet any of the other ones since they're all in the king's camp (that part made me mad, btw, why have an area completely closed off like that..) Duncan also specifically says to leave the archdemon to the other Grey Wardens if it shows up. I don't know when he was going to drop the bomb on the PC/Alistair, but it was pretty clear he never intended either of them to take the final blow.

[RunCDFirst]

eschilde wrote...

Well, Alistair explains in a couple of places what it was like to be around the Grey Wardens.. I mean, at Ostagar, you don't even get a chance to meet any of the other ones since they're all in the king's camp (that part made me mad, btw, why have an area completely closed off like that..) Duncan also specifically says to leave the archdemon to the other Grey Wardens if it shows up. I don't know when he was going to drop the bomb on the PC/Alistair, but it was pretty clear he never intended either of them to take the final blow.

I think Duncan was preparing himself to take the final blow. This Blight seemed to be his 'baby'.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Taleroth wrote...
How powerful could it be?  Two rookie Wardens, an old maid, and a bard can take one down.

A tainded god. and you had armeos of half a dozen nations behind your back.

You assume your'e gonna be there when it arrives again.
What if it begins its' rampage on hte other side of the coutry? How many cities can it destroy, how many people can it kill before you arrive? Face the facts - you're putting all of Ferelden, maybe all of Thedas into danger.

The baby in question only coming into being because of the ritual to begin with, so even if you believe something dies, it's a zero-sum calculation at worst.

No, it's coming into being because you or Allistair slept with Morrigan.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:38 .

[Badpie]

mrao wrote...

Too many unknowns, too many risks, no control.

This is what it comes down to in the end. Its meant to be a selfish decision, generally the reason people do it is to live with their love interest. While I was annoyed at the lack of explanation for what the ritual is really for, I think we are meant to be left with the sense of restlessness and anticipation, even after the archdemon is dead. It makes the final victory seem hollow, perhaps temporary, as you have no idea what you might have created the night before.

It certainly was effective, at least in making me really anxious to know what happens next.

Exactly.  I love that.  Bioware is great about making the characters, situations and outcomes of anything very real.  People are flawed, even the heroes and there is rarely a happy ending without some sort of unpleasantness or consequence.  Nothing in DA is "and they lived happily ever after" just like nothing in life is really that either.  So it's actually refreshing to me that they give you the opportunity for the "selfish" choice.  Heroes that are pure and good and honorable and perfect 100% to their core are boring and unrealistic.  Even if you're 95% that, you are still human and will make mistakes, do selfish things, hurt people you love, etc. etc.  Bioware clearly recognizes this and I LOVE THEM FOR IT.

[eschilde]

RunCDFirst wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Well, Alistair explains in a couple of places what it was like to be around the Grey Wardens.. I mean, at Ostagar, you don't even get a chance to meet any of the other ones since they're all in the king's camp (that part made me mad, btw, why have an area completely closed off like that..) Duncan also specifically says to leave the archdemon to the other Grey Wardens if it shows up. I don't know when he was going to drop the bomb on the PC/Alistair, but it was pretty clear he never intended either of them to take the final blow.

I think Duncan was preparing himself to take the final blow. This Blight seemed to be his 'baby'.

Agreed, especially in combination with what Alistair says about Duncan having 'the dreams'..

My point, however, was that it's a bit unfair to blame the rest of the Grey Wardens for not telling you about killing the Archdemon as there wasn't really a lot of time for them to do so.. between the Joining and the beginning of the battle at Ostagar, Duncan and PC were busy with war council and then Duncan's last minute instructions. Duncan wasn't going to tell PC before the Joining, since the Joining was bad news enough and had a high likelihood of killing, anyway. And then, after, well.. it's kinda hard to pass on knowledge if you're dead.

That only justifies not telling PC, but it seemed like Alistair wasn't a Grey Warden much longer than you, anyway. And Alistair does mention Duncan tried to keep him out of the fighting. He says it's because he's Maric's bastard, but it could be just as likely Duncan didn't want him getting anywhere near the archdemon, in retrospect.

[Taleroth]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
How powerful could it be?  Two rookie Wardens, an old maid, and a bard can take one down.

A tainded god. and you had armeos of half a dozen nations behind your back.

They were busy taking on the fodder, the Archdemon was all our work.

You assume your'e gonna be there when it arrives again.

I more assume that it's pretty easy to stop, assuming you don't have generals sabotaging your plans.

What if it begins its' rampage on hte other side of the coutry? How many cities can it destroy, how many people can it kill before you arrive? Face the facts - you're putting all of Ferelden, maybe all of Thedas into danger.

Or maybe I'm saving them all.  Who knows, sometimes you gotta take a chance.

The CERN supercollider could ignite or atmosphere.  You never know!

[eschilde]

Taleroth wrote...

The CERN supercollider could ignite or atmosphere.  You never know!

lol

[Adon 9]

It's been said before, but I think it needs to be reiterated here: one of the running themes of DA:O is that good and bad, right and wrong are not clear cut and are not easily defined. In the case of the dark ritual, is it a selfish decision? In some ways, yes. It means you live, your friends live, everyone lives. That doesn't make it a bad decision or wrong... the Grey Wardens might not approve, but there is no objective morality scale in the game or real life for that matter to tell us that it's a worse decision than sacrifice. After all, the whole sacrifice thing was likely based on the simple idea that there was no alternative available. Remember, conventional wisdom is not always correct, and just because a figure in authority says something is so does not make it such. Remember, Grey Wardens are about combatting the blight by whatever means are available. So if a previously unexplored option presents itself, is it by neccessity a bad thing because it's never been tried? The game doesn't tell you, and in keeping with the overall theme it shouldn't either.



Overall, it's an ambiguous decision. Selfish, maybe. Wrong? Hard to say in the end.

[Taleroth]

eschilde wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

The CERN supercollider could ignite or atmosphere.  You never know!

lol

Micro black holes, original nuclear tests, blah blah.

[marshalleck]

Meh. What if purified/reborn Old Gods are the key to permanently stopping the Darkspawn? Taking the option for personal glory and heroism by killing its soul and dying along with it is short-sighted and selfish.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:05 .

[Mesecina]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The riutual is practilcy baby murder, no matter how you want to spin it differently.

Not to mention that given your total lack of knowledge of what Morrigan wants to do with it or how dangeros the child will be, callibng this decision wise is the biggest joke of the century.

Uh oh hold your horses... Wherever did you see a baby? 2 days old (that's how long it's supposed to take from Redcliffe to Denerim) embryo hosting about 4 cells total and having quite a while to till even implanting in the uterus hardly classifies as a baby in any way you look upon it and the natural abortion rate at this stage is actually higher than birthrate. (and yes I'm employing this world's biology here because since the baby producing process is obviously the same so is the developmnent of human embryo imo)
That's sounded just uber anti abortion extremistic to me

As for my personal view of the ritual - both of my characters I finished the game with so far were forced into Gray Wardens.
They weren't told jack **** about the joining ritual, the consequences of said ritual, the duties and responsibilities of the Wardens so they are free to do whatever they desire taking into account both of them regarded Morrigan as a true friend (well they might have been mistaken which I'm eager to find out) and cared a lot about Alistair (my mage regarded him as brother and my noble as one true love ).
So yes it's definitely selfish and it definitely will/would be frowned upon by other Wardens but no I don't think it's evil from my character's point of view since they trust Morrigan, they have their doubts about Chantry's official stories, they don't see why an old god of arts should neccessarily be a bad thing. But we'll see about "evil" part

[Lotion Soronarr]

And all of those doomsday prophecies had nothing t ostand on really.



But this one has.



It has too many unknwons. You character doesn't know. The price of being wrong can be horrible. And that still leaves the babypossesion thing.

[RunCDFirst]

marshalleck wrote...

Meh. What if purified/reborn Old Gods are the key to permanently stopping the Darkspawn? Taking the option for personal glory and heroism by killing its soul and dying along with it is short-sighted and selfish.

Morrigan is Andraste reincarnate.

Believe!

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Meh. What if purified/reborn Old Gods are the key to permanently stopping the Darkspawn? Taking the option for personal glory and heroism by killing its soul and dying along with it is short-sighted and selfish.

Morrigan is Andraste reincarnate.

Believe!

No wonder Mafareth turned her in.

[Mavkiel]

Hindsight is 20/20 as the saying goes. So you perform a ritual that saves your life, and gets rid of the taint on an old gods soul.



Here is how I decided:

Pros:

I get to live, yay me.

A child with an old god soul is born. Assuming it has memories from its previous life, it would not have very good will towards darkspawn. If it has no memories of a past life, then its simply another powerful human who will probably dislike darkspawn on general principle.



Cons:

Morrigan gets the kid. Trusting her is a wee bit like playing Russian roulette. However, even assuming she intends to pull a flemeth and possess the child, she has to wait until the child comes to his/her full potential (It makes possession easier, even according to Morrigan). This gives you years to track her down and get the child back. If one informs the grey wardens of the kid and has the ear of the king, your resources are fairly large.

[Alex Savchovsky]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Depends on your definition of "well adjusted". Well adjusted to what? 
Society? I think a being of such power should not interfere with society at all. The temptation to use that power "for good" would be too great to overcome. Which would eventually end up in modeling the society to fit your vision. The shorter word for this is "tyranny".
You should first answer the question "what would that child need to know?" before stating that Morrigan is inappropriate choice.

Well, unless we want Old Testament rains of blood or plagues of frogs, compassion might be a good start.

How very wrong. Have you not read what I wrote at all? Compassion is needed in society... and will increase dramatically the mentioned temptation. A compassionate god could turn humanity into a cleverly designed Eden garden, full of plants but no humans.

RunCDFirst wrote...

But now we're just getting silly. Anyone that thinks Morrigan would make a good mother should never enter parenthood.

Though, I guess she may care about the child. Not enough to have it raised properly but... I suppose in her own way she could... conceivably care for it.

Now you continue to use obscure terms. "Raised properly"? How is a potential god raised properly? Do anyone has any idea on what is proper and what is not in this case? Obviously, no. Then Morrigan has just about the same chances as everybody else. Maybe slightly better still, as she at least had the time to think on it. You're just saying that she should not be left to raise a human child on her own. I agree on that. But raising a god child? This is entirely different problem - and thus your arguments should be different, adjusted to it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Philosophiocal bull****.

Everyone knows that raised properly means in general terms. Instilling basic good values. Treating the kid right.



Bah..this whole thing is downright redicolous.



Just like the Loghain and Allistair and several other discussions..some people just refuse to do the math.

It's clear that the ritual is leaning heavily on the dark side in both practical and moral aspects.

[Taleroth]

Why do people automatically assume that just because it's called an Old God it's automatically powerful? We've seen no indication or rumor of power greater than simply being a powerful dragon with some telepathy.

[eschilde]

Taleroth wrote...

Why do people automatically assume that just because it's called an Old God it's automatically powerful? We've seen no indication or rumor of power greater than simply being a powerful dragon with some telepathy.

Well, in corrupted form it's kind of a nasty dragon. Supposedly they're still dragons if they're not corrupted. But disregarding that, why would Morrigan waste time or effort on something that isn't powerful or grants her access/knowledge? 

[RunCDFirst]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

How very wrong. Have you not read what I wrote at all? Compassion is needed in society... and will increase dramatically the mentioned temptation. A compassionate god could turn humanity into a cleverly designed Eden garden, full of plants but no humans.

What? You statements make no sense. There's no logical fallacies here... there's just no logic.

What do you mean a compassionate god could turn humanity into a humanless garden? Is this some weird version of slippery slope? Your definition of tyranny is both one sided and skewed. One can have compassion and work well to better society without sinking into fascist dictatorships.

Now you continue to use obscure terms. "Raised properly"? How is a potential god raised properly? Do anyone has any idea on what is proper and what is not in this case? Obviously, no. Then Morrigan has just about the same chances as everybody else. Maybe slightly better still, as she at least had the time to think on it. You're just saying that she should not be left to raise a human child on her own. I agree on that. But raising a god child? This is entirely different problem - and thus your arguments should be different, adjusted to it.

Yes, because all you need is a little thought. I'll just give a few minutes to ponder the responsibilities of raising a child and I should just be good to go, eh?

First, there's no indication that Morrigan is raising anything but a very powerful mage. Tevineter Gods? Chantry teaches them to not be actual gods but false idols. Morrigan just goes on about the power of an Old God untainted imbued in the body of a child. She's not going on about squeezing out a little Maker, but a kid with oodles of power.

Second, do you really want a discussion about good parenting? About proper social skills, moral integrity, social responsibility? I don't think we need a dissertation on child rearing to still communicate the fact that Morrigan is ill-prepared to bring a hamster into this world, let alone a baby superman.