92 réponses à ce sujet

[Hydralysk]

jb1983 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Assets don't matter.

Choices don't matter.

Continuity doesn't matter.

Our characters don't matter.

The time we spent with them doesn't matter.

Our relations don't matter.

We were lied to numerous times in their interviews. We are not being unfair.

But neither choices, nor continutiy, nor characters or anything mattered in either ME1 or 2.  And Assets do matter, because it determines the quality of the ending.  And the choices got you those assets, as did continuity.

Right, because in ME2 my choices had absolutely no impact on whether anyone lived or died...

ME1 you have a point, but that's because the whole point of ME1 is that it was setting the stage for how ME2 and 3 would play out. We were told that the decisions we made then would have massive impacts on how the game played in 2 and 3. Oops. 

The whole point is that ME3 was supposed to be the most freeing. Hudson even said in multiple interviews that what he liked about this is that it was the final game. Thus, they didn't need similar endings because there wasn't anything coming after this. Instead, we all got the same ending when there was absolutely no reason to it; there isn't going to be an ME4 (at least not one with Shepard in it), so the endings could have been similar enough to create an ME4, but different enough for Shepard to have a different experience. 

But that didn't happen. 

So did this ruin the franchise? Yes, because it went against the entire point of the franchise, that your decisions matter. 

Face it - Bioware dropped the ball. Instead of an epic ending to Mass Effect, we got Commander Shepard and His Amazing Technocolor Starchild.

Pretty much this.

[lasertank]

I respectfully disagree. Case closed.

[Kayawyn4]

In my opinion, they are disrespecting it. They had an amazing IP going here and have a very talented writing staff. I believe when news of the dark energy ending was leaked and people criticized it, they cobbled together the current ending to meet their deadline. The problem is, what resulted just doesn’t work. It’s like they ended ME1 with Virgil telling Shepard that it defeated Saren and Sovereign before Shepard even arrived on Ilos, and then the ending credits scrolled by. There would have never been an ME2 or ME3 had ME1 ended like that.

[jspiess]

The game has some very beautiful moments like the conclusions of the Tuchanka/Genophage and Rannoch. That to me is what makes the ending hurt worse. Your introduction and conclusion should the strongest parts of your story. This is not the case in Mass Effect 3. The game is perfect until it falls flat on its face right before the finish line. The entire Shepard trilogy therefore falls on its face right before the finish line. If they were planning on adding on to the story in the first place, they did a subpar job of leading people to catch that. The journey was awesome. The end was unbearable. Now I just play multiplayer.

[Noelemahc]

 The game is a love letter to the franchise and its fans, that much is certain. But this love letter somewhy ends with the writing trailing off the page and a splotch of blood and brain matter because the writer has apparently committed suicide.  We HAVE to blame someone for the endings, because BioWare did make them, and they DID repeatedly state that they were AS THEY WERE INTENDED TO BE. Which means that the blood is NOT, in fact real, they painted it in. INTENTIONALLY. (or, actually shot the guy writing the letter when he was about to finish it, you decide which option is more fun).

And we're not even bringing up all the misspelt and missing pages (because the letter's author misnumbered and misplaced a lot of them along the way as it was so long), or the fact that sometimes the ink is the wrong colour and was written in by a different handwriting =)

To change the metaphor, OP, compare the game to a cake. It's a cake reminiscent of the previous two you had for your previous two birthdays, in fact, using some of the same tricks and ingredients, and it is larger and very impressive, but once you eat it, you find that the innermost part has rotten away because they didn't cook it all the way through. Yes, it was great cake you enjoyed eating, but you gotta be one of those iron-lined-stomach kind of people to not throw up the moment you reach the rot. Sorry if I ruined someone's dinner with the analogy.

P.S. For clarification, I do have an iron-lined-stomach. I loved the crap out of kill.switch's story, and that game is the apogee of "excuse plot to invent a new genre of TPS". Much better than Gears of War which plagiarizes the concept, anyway =)

[CitizenSnips]

At the very least, it's an incredibly poorly written ending.

[Misterdde45000]

spacehamsterZH wrote...


I also said I wish people would read more than just the thread title before they post the same stuff that's been posted on here a bajillion times since the game came out.

I'm not disagreeing that the ending (and I refuse to use the plural here, for obvious reasons) is garbage and p!$$es all over the ME story - my favorite moment in the franchise is still that first encounter with Sovereign, and every word of that dialogue has effectively been nullified. Don't think I'm not aware of that. I'm also not disagreeing that the ending is an extremely important part of a story that can have a potentially devastating effect. For example, brokering peace between the Quarians and the Geth was something I felt strongly about, but after the ending - what was the point? All this is true, and I don't see how it's up for debate, really, it's pretty self-evident. But it's just as self-evident that the rest of the game is full of signs that the writers do respect what has gone before and constantly reference it in often fantastic ways. We can argue about whether or not the ending outweighs that in terms of the overall quality of the game, but if we just ignore it, we're making ourselves look like exactly the frothing-at-the-mouth mob of internet complainers that IGN says we are.

Just take this fact in consideration. Some people didn't liked DA2. They made a huge fuss about it, and i was part of them. I didn't like the game, i let them know and i just get somewhere else for my entertainment.

The main problem with ME3, is that the whole game is a loveletter to RPG fan and ME fans. But, when you almost finish reading it you just see a wonderfull middle finger pointed at you. 

My point is, if we didn't liked the game, we wouldn't just complain about the ending but about the whole game for a couple of days and then move out. Instead we are asking for what they have told they would give us, so we could happily replay all ME, buy their DLC and keep enjoying ourselves with this franchise. So if you just dig a little, you can easely see in fact, most of us liked the game on the same scale that we hate the end.

[Sargaz]

 bioware spaced out haha

[Aznable Char]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Assets don't matter.

Choices don't matter.

Continuity doesn't matter.

Our characters don't matter.

The time we spent with them doesn't matter.

Our relations don't matter.

We were lied to numerous times in their interviews. We are not being unfair.

THIS!

Not to mention the convoluted resurgence of complicating action during a denouement is just .. BioWare I was so ready to just bury Anderson , destroy the reapers , wake up in the hospital . Talk with my crew mates . Read some epilogue , have an amazing funeral . blah blah . I was ready for falling action . Except I had to sit there and take in this BRAND NEW BRAND NEW information that just complicates things and then GIVES ME NO CHANCE TO TALK IT OUT ANY OTHER WAY .

"YOU think you have memories ... assets ... characters ... The Normandy .. a crash .... and then this place . Were there .. really assets ? Did the Normandy crash ... or was it hijacked ? Forced down ... Forced down by something LESS than a player something created to sleepwalk through a game until they are activated by a simple phrase spoken by the kindly Catalyst ... was a PLAYER sent to play ... or a slave ? A PLAYER CHOOSES ... a slave obeys ."

Modifié par Aznable Char, 24 mars 2012 - 05:27 .

[KombatWombat]

Hexley UK wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Assets don't matter.

Choices don't matter.

Continuity doesn't matter.

Our characters don't matter.

The time we spent with them doesn't matter.

Our relations don't matter.

We were lied to numerous times in their interviews. We are not being unfair.

+1

+1

This right here sums it up. You have to realize that Bioware promised something that they simply did not deliver, in any sense of the word. There can be no argument to the contrary. I'm holding out for PAX announcement, depending on how that goes, I'm either all in buying DLC, or I'm gone for good.

[Icophesis]

RiouHotaru wrote...
But neither choices, nor continutiy, nor characters or anything mattered in either ME1 or 2.  And Assets do matter, because it determines the quality of the ending.  And the choices got you those assets, as did continuity.

Theres a pretty big difference in attitude towards the player if he saves/sacrifices the council.

[Zix13]

Hexley UK wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Assets don't matter.

Choices don't matter.

Continuity doesn't matter.

Our characters don't matter.

The time we spent with them doesn't matter.

Our relations don't matter.

We were lied to numerous times in their interviews. We are not being unfair.

+1

+Many

[ThePanzer99]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Hyperbole gets us nowhere, folks. To say ME3 shows a complete lack of
respect for the entire Mass Effect universe or its fans is just
ridiculous. I wonder if the people who say this even played the game, or
if they just watched the last 10 minutes on Youtube. The entire damn
game is basically a love letter to the previous two games and to the
fans, endless references upon references to obscure and not-so-obscure
past events, little winks and nods everywhere. It's practically all the
game does. Sure, it completely implodes at the end, and sure, the ending
basically negates everything that came before it, but in the grand
scheme of things, that's one misstep, albeit a major one, in a game that
otherwise shows nothing but respect for the two that came before it.
And overstating this doesn't help anything, it just makes you look like a
typical internet complainer. There are sound reasons to criticize this
game. "Bioware have no respect for us or their franchise anymore" is not
one of them.

*gets off soapbox*

Can't tell if serious or trolling.

[Kilshrek]

Aesieru wrote...

Assets don't matter.

Choices don't matter.

Continuity doesn't matter.

Our characters don't matter.

The time we spent with them doesn't matter.

Our relations don't matter.

We were lied to numerous times in their interviews. We are not being unfair.

^

Mmhmm, I think we're being plenty reasonable when we say that things don't add up. 2 + 2 is not 5 simply because it makes it artistic.

[spacehamsterZH]

Misterdde45000 wrote...

My point is, if we didn't liked the game, we wouldn't just complain about the ending but about the whole game for a couple of days and then move out. Instead we are asking for what they have told they would give us, so we could happily replay all ME, buy their DLC and keep enjoying ourselves with this franchise. So if you just dig a little, you can easely see in fact, most of us liked the game on the same scale that we hate the end.

That's what it was like here a week ago. Now it's mostly dumb hyperbole, and people refusing to acknowledge any of the things the game did right. I completely agree with you - if everything leading up to it hadn't been so great, I probably wouldn't have cared anymore by the time the game rolled over and peed on itself. But I'm also not going to pretend I didn't enjoy the game immensely right up until that point just so I can be a negative nelly on the internet.

[TetsuyaZ]

Hydralysk wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Assets don't matter.

Choices don't matter.

Continuity doesn't matter.

Our characters don't matter.

The time we spent with them doesn't matter.

Our relations don't matter.

We were lied to numerous times in their interviews. We are not being unfair.

But neither choices, nor continutiy, nor characters or anything mattered in either ME1 or 2.  And Assets do matter, because it determines the quality of the ending.  And the choices got you those assets, as did continuity.

Right, because in ME2 my choices had absolutely no impact on whether anyone lived or died...

ME1 you have a point, but that's because the whole point of ME1 is that it was setting the stage for how ME2 and 3 would play out. We were told that the decisions we made then would have massive impacts on how the game played in 2 and 3. Oops. 

The whole point is that ME3 was supposed to be the most freeing. Hudson even said in multiple interviews that what he liked about this is that it was the final game. Thus, they didn't need similar endings because there wasn't anything coming after this. Instead, we all got the same ending when there was absolutely no reason to it; there isn't going to be an ME4 (at least not one with Shepard in it), so the endings could have been similar enough to create an ME4, but different enough for Shepard to have a different experience. 

But that didn't happen. 

So did this ruin the franchise? Yes, because it went against the entire point of the franchise, that your decisions matter. 

Face it - Bioware dropped the ball. Instead of an epic ending to Mass Effect, we got Commander Shepard and His Amazing Technocolor Starchild.

Pretty much this.

^^

[lillitheris]

spacehamsterZH wrote...
I also said I wish people would read more than just the thread title before they post the same stuff that's been posted on here a bajillion times since the game came out.

I'm not disagreeing that the ending (and I refuse to use the plural here, for obvious reasons) is garbage and p!$$es all over the ME story - my favorite moment in the franchise is still that first encounter with Sovereign, and every word of that dialogue has effectively been nullified. Don't think I'm not aware of that. I'm also not disagreeing that the ending is an extremely important part of a story that can have a potentially devastating effect.

You're not really presenting an argument. You're saying that if we ignore the bits that were atrocious and ruined the game, it's not so bad. This is true. It sounds like you can disregard that in favour of finding enough enjoyment in the rest. That's awesome, but understand that a lot of (most?) people don't.

Either way, though, BioWare really screwed up. To firstly add that ending is to me a little disrespectful (did they just expect us to take it at face value?), and then trying to defend that decision is more so (even though at this point it's all about the money and PR damage control).

And once again, I mean the corporate entity BioWare (and EA).  Like I've said before, I guarantee that most of the people who worked on the game aren't happy with the ending, either, but they don't get a vote on when a game is shipped, and certainly can't speak out against it when it's out.

[spacehamsterZH]

lillitheris wrote...
You're not really presenting an argument. You're saying that if we ignore the bits that were atrocious and ruined the game, it's not so bad. This is true. It sounds like you can disregard that in favour of finding enough enjoyment in the rest. That's awesome, but understand that a lot of (most?) people don't.

Like I said, we can disagree about how much the poor ending (I can't believe I said "endings" in the thread title, I swore I'd never do that) outweighs everything else, and it's not like I'm defending what they did there. But if in so much of the rest of the game, it's clearly evident that a concerted effort was made to address fan feedback and to reference old continuity, it's just BS to say the game as a whole disrespects the franchise. It clearly, objectively doesn't. Acknowledge that and focus the criticism on what actually is bad, which is the fact that the last 10 minutes of the game (although honestly, I'd include the London mission in the problem) also clearly, objectively contradicts so much of the plot and the game mechanics that it taints everything. I know some people are doing just that, but there's way too much "everything sucks" here by now, and nobody ever takes that seriously because it's what happens every day on every gaming forum on the planet. It's important to show that this is different. There is an actual problem here, with a very specific, isolated part of the game. Acknowledging that the rest of the game is fine is part of identifying this problem.

[xxskyshadowxx]

It's the end of a trilogy and the writers ignored all aspects of their own lore and continuity in order to slap on the ending of an older game. That not only completely disrespects their own franchise, but also disrespects the developer of the game they "borrowed" from.

[Geirahod]

it seems that they don't respect the franchise nor the universe.

see the deception novel...

That was the first slap in the face, then the final one...the endings.

[lillitheris]

spacehamsterZH wrote...
But if in so much of the rest of the game, it's clearly evident that a concerted effort was made to address fan feedback and to reference old continuity, it's just BS to say the game as a whole disrespects the franchise. It clearly, objectively doesn't.

I definitely agree with you on this.

BUT.

In my opinion, the handful of people who were responsible for allowing the ending to be tacked on and released the game incomplete were disrespecting both the gamers AND all those people who worked on the good parts of the game.

Do you see what I'm saying? Maybe there's a better way of expressing it, but I'm sure this is the sentiment shared by most of us whiners - in fact, pretty much all posts gush about the rest of the game "except the ending" already. Nobody reading the threads can come away with the feeling that we hate the entire thing.

[GeneralJackCosmo]

To be fair, there are really only two endings to ME2: either you destroy the base or you hand it over to TIM.

That said, many of the choices you've made up until that point contribute to a very ambitious series of variations with the cumulative potential for serious ramifications in ME3.

The problem with ME3, ending aside, is that although the choices you've made in ME1 and ME2 affect the way the story of ME3 unfolds, the choices made within ME3 do not really feel like they go anywhere. Sure, they increase numbers on a terminal in the War Room, but that's about it. The final act of ME2 is much more satisfying--even if squad mates you like end up dying--because no matter what happens, it truly feels like the result of your decisions and actions up until that point. And moreover, if you have an ending that disappoints in ME2, the nature of the game and the way the story is basically written by the player as he/she goes along provides an impetus for another playthrough in an effort to reach a more satisfactory end with more squadmates alive, etc.

I would suggest that even if Shepard died in EVERY possible ending for ME3, people would be much more apt to replay the game if they could SEE how their actions affect the other characters they have grown to care about. I know that I would play again and again in an effort to save as many of my "friends" as possible, even if I knew I was going to die each and every time. As it stands, what is the point? The impetus to replay a game stems from the desire to reach a better outcome: if the outcome in ME3 is ultimately always going to be the same package wrapped in paper of a different color, why bother?

[sydranark]

@OP

I am a huge fan of the ME series, and I love ME3. But the ending sucks. I think a majority of people are claiming this, not that Bioware disrespects the entire franchise. Consider the fact that they promised an ending that results from the culmination of our actions throughout the 3 games; they didn't follow through with it. Now, to get a proper ending we must pay for it through DLC. 

Even after they addressed people's concerns, they're not being clear in their intentions. They're not addressing the specifics of what needs to be changed or what will be changed. They are not even admitting that anything needs to be changed; they are being defensive about the whole matter. Considering all of this, I wouldn't say they are disrespecting the entire franchise; but they are disrespecting their fans. 

[DieHigh2012]

I'm glad you liked it, I can't even look at ME1 or ME2 after the last 10 minuets of this game. The ending to ME3 has effectively ruined the trilogy for me.

It's very sad, yet very true...

[spacehamsterZH]

sydranark wrote...

Even after they addressed people's
concerns, they're not being clear in their intentions. They're not
addressing the specifics of what needs to be changed or what will be
changed.

The game's been out for barely over two
weeks. This is another thing that bugs me, actually - obviously they
were caught by surprise by the negative response to the ending, and now
they have to decide what exactly to do. That takes a bit of time, and
it's better not to say anything until it's final than to throw out more
half-baked promises that aren't going to be fulfilled. I don't know that I necessarily have faith that they'll come up with a good fix (I can't think of one), but I do understand that they can't have a complete and final answer to something like this after two weeks.

lillitheris wrote...
In my opinion, the handful of people who were responsible for allowing the ending to be tacked on and released the game incomplete were disrespecting both the gamers AND all those people who worked on the good parts of the game.

But see, this is just weird to me. I'm generally not willing to speculate one way or another how these things are decided at BW, but I'm pretty sure this isn't it - somebody who had little to nothing to do with the rest of the game stepping in at the last moment and dictating an ending to the team. It certainly feels just that tacked on, but that just doesn't make sense. The same team who gave you Garrus and Shepard shooting bottles at the top of the Presidium and the Liara romance and Mordin sacrificing himself to cure the Genophage somehow decided this ending was a good idea. As weird as that is, if you say these people disrespect the franchise, you're also saying all those other moments were worthless because they were also created by them.