1194 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lazy Jer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They don't hurt anyone (usually), but that was not my point. I was speaking of technicalities. No matter how you twist and turn it, they ARE encroaching and poaching on a soveriegn nation's lands. What harm comes of it is debatable, but again, that was never my point.

First of all are they breaking any laws?  Hunting doesn't appear to be against the law, fishing doesn't appear to be against the law, traveling around avoiding humans may be difficult, but not against the law.

The only law I can see them being accused of breaking is about harboring apostate mages, in which case there's an important matter of scale.  Is the Templar Order going to more conserned with apostate mages living in a big city like Denirum or a small town like Redcliffe where there's a concentrated population of people, or are they going to but more concern with some mage living in a caravel out in the middle of a woodland where the only people there are the Dalish?

All game on a track of land belongs to the noble who owns the land. If no noble have laid claim to this particular piece of land, the game belongs to the king. All depending on what kind of monarchy we are talking of course. Nevertheless whenever the Dalish kills game where tehy are camped, they are reducing the effective yield for hunters of the nation, and that is breaking the law. Of course the Dalish are forced to, and I highly doubt that what little they catch really hurt anyone, but the nobles who own the land where the Dalish camp, are fully justfied in trying to hunt the Dalish off. But that is probably more trouble than it is worth usually.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm certain that the fact that the templars hunt their elven mages might play a part in the hostilities between humans and the Dalish.[/quote] 

They are in another nation's lands and they need to follow their laws. They don't so they get hunted. [/quote]

Considering the Dalish elves' refusal to give up the worship of their gods, I don't see that being likely.
[/quote]
Nope, probably not. Doesn't change the fact that, within the letter of the law, the Templars and other law enforcers, are complete justfied in hunting down the Dalish.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Orlesian version of events. [/quote] 

According to historical records more like. Instead of some mouth to mouth story from a campfire. [/quote]

According to the Orlesian Empire, who has a history of conquering other nations. In fact, the Orlesian Empire started as a result of the city-state conquering its neighboring city-states in Exalted Marches lead by Kordillus Drakon, who became the first Emperor of Orlais.
[/quote] 
Not according to Orlais. Not according to Orlais at all. The sources comes from renowned Fereldan historians, that even though they work for the Chantry, have been known to call out the Chantry whenver it was wrong.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are trying to survive - hunting to feed their families, living in seclusion from human society, trying to restore their past.[/quote]

Twist and turn it all you like. The Dalish are breaking the laws of the countries they encroaching on, their intentions and reasons be damned. They are breaking the law. Sadly Thedas' general justice system is rather barbaric, and most punishment usually consist of toture and/or execution. [/quote]

There's nothing to twist and turn about the Dalish trying to survive, with the loss of their homeland.
[/quote] 
I don't care about their reasoning. They are breaking the laws of the countries they encroach on. They are trespassers at best and marauders at worst. They can either unite and recreate their homeland, or tehy can fall in line and start abiding by the laws the nations they encroach on set. i couldn't give less of a f*ck about their culture.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You're openly conflating the involvement of other nations with the war between Orlais and the Chantry with the elves of the Dales.

Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste have a history of conquest that dates back to the inception of the Orlesian Empire, includes the conquest of Nevarra after the Third Blight, and continues into the attempts to invade (and occupation of) Ferelden. I don't see why you are so willing to dismiss the Dalish version of events. The Dalish claim that the war with Orlais and the Chantry started as a result of the elves' refusal to give up the worship of their gods, and since part of the terms of surrender involved the elves' giving up worship of their gods so that they could become Andrastians, I don't see why you think this is so far-fetched.[/quote]

The other nations didn't join the war until AFTER Val Royaux had been sacked, and an Exalted March had been called. And I dismiss the Dalishh version because it is obviously incorrect. There are numerous historical records which proves that the war started as a conflict between nations, and not a war of religions. It is true that the Elven worship of their pantheon had beena  source of friction between the two nations, and also true that the expelling of the missionaries will have caused friction, but it was NOT the reason for the Exalted march to be called. [/quote]

You don't know the Dalish version is incorrect.

Other nations got involved once the Dalish were clearly winning the war against Orlais and the Chantry, but Orlais and the Chantry were fighting the Dalish long before then, which is the entire point.[/quote]
No, the Chantry weren't involved at all until Val Royaux itself was threatened. And only after Val Royaux was sacked did the other human nations of Thedas join the war, and defeated the Elven forces.

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All game on a track of land belongs to the noble who owns the land. If no noble have laid claim to this particular piece of land, the game belongs to the king. All depending on what kind of monarchy we are talking of course. Nevertheless whenever the Dalish kills game where tehy are camped, they are reducing the effective yield for hunters of the nation, and that is breaking the law. Of course the Dalish are forced to, and I highly doubt that what little they catch really hurt anyone, but the nobles who own the land where the Dalish camp, are fully justfied in trying to hunt the Dalish off. But that is probably more trouble than it is worth usually.

Which means the law, if that's the law is pointless and it becomes a simplier law.  The law of the land, i.e., the Dalish are on the land, the humans aren't.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lazy Jer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All game on a track of land belongs to the noble who owns the land. If no noble have laid claim to this particular piece of land, the game belongs to the king. All depending on what kind of monarchy we are talking of course. Nevertheless whenever the Dalish kills game where tehy are camped, they are reducing the effective yield for hunters of the nation, and that is breaking the law. Of course the Dalish are forced to, and I highly doubt that what little they catch really hurt anyone, but the nobles who own the land where the Dalish camp, are fully justfied in trying to hunt the Dalish off. But that is probably more trouble than it is worth usually.

Which means the law, if that's the law is pointless and it becomes a simplier law.  The law of the land, i.e., the Dalish are on the land, the humans aren't.

Again, I was talking of technicalities. And by law, if a human were to step into the area where the Dalish were camped, this humans would be within his rights to go wherever he pleases, since this piece of land belongs to the nation of which he is a citizen. Yet some, if not indeed most, Dalish seeks to prevent humans from getting near the encampments.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the Dalish elves' refusal to give up the worship of their gods, I don't see that being likely.

Nope, probably not. Doesn't change the fact that, within the letter of the law, the Templars and other law enforcers, are complete justfied in hunting down the Dalish.

Simply because it's legal doesn't make it right.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Orlesian Empire, who has a history of conquering other nations. In fact, the Orlesian Empire started as a result of the city-state conquering its neighboring city-states in Exalted Marches lead by Kordillus Drakon, who became the first Emperor of Orlais.

 

Not according to Orlais. Not according to Orlais at all. The sources comes from renowned Fereldan historians, that even though they work for the Chantry, have been known to call out the Chantry whenver it was wrong.

Considering that their source is Orlais, it's still the Orlesian version of events. It's still the claim by Orlais that the Dalish attacked the Orlesians unprovoked, which contradicts the Dalish version of events that the war was provoked with the incursion of the templars into their territory.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's nothing to twist and turn about the Dalish trying to survive, with the loss of their homeland.

 

I don't care about their reasoning. They are breaking the laws of the countries they encroach on. They are trespassers at best and marauders at worst. They can either unite and recreate their homeland, or tehy can fall in line and start abiding by the laws the nations they encroach on set. i couldn't give less of a f*ck about their culture.

They are men, women, and children trying to survive, and maintain their culture.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You don't know the Dalish version is incorrect.

Other nations got involved once the Dalish were clearly winning the war against Orlais and the Chantry, but Orlais and the Chantry were fighting the Dalish long before then, which is the entire point.

No, the Chantry weren't involved at all until Val Royaux itself was threatened. And only after Val Royaux was sacked did the other human nations of Thedas join the war, and defeated the Elven forces.

No, the other Andrastian nations didn't get involved until the Chantry declared an Exalted March against the Dales.

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, I was talking of technicalities. And by law, if a human were to step into the area where the Dalish were camped, this humans would be within his rights to go wherever he pleases, since this piece of land belongs to the nation of which he is a citizen. Yet some, if not indeed most, Dalish seeks to prevent humans from getting near the encampments.

Oh.  In that case we're arguing two different things, I was talking about how things are in practice.  I guess technically speaking that it's true.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 30 mars 2012 - 05:01 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the Dalish elves' refusal to give up the worship of their gods, I don't see that being likely. [/quote]

Nope, probably not. Doesn't change the fact that, within the letter of the law, the Templars and other law enforcers, are complete justfied in hunting down the Dalish. [/quote]

Simply because it's legal doesn't make it right.
[/quote] 
Same could be said about the Dalish: Just because it is their culture, doesn't make it acceptable.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Orlesian Empire, who has a history of conquering other nations. In fact, the Orlesian Empire started as a result of the city-state conquering its neighboring city-states in Exalted Marches lead by Kordillus Drakon, who became the first Emperor of Orlais. [/quote] 

Not according to Orlais. Not according to Orlais at all. The sources comes from renowned Fereldan historians, that even though they work for the Chantry, have been known to call out the Chantry whenver it was wrong. [/quote]

Considering that their source is Orlais, it's still the Orlesian version of events. It's still the claim by Orlais that the Dalish attacked the Orlesians unprovoked, which contradicts the Dalish version of events that the war was provoked with the incursion of the templars into their territory.
[/quote] 
The Orlesians made no such claim. Orlais admit that there were extreme tensions between Orlais and the Dales. What they do claim, is that the Dalish struck first.
What historians claim, is that we will never know who struck first, but that the tension between the two nations had been at critical mass for a long time, and that the Dalish led an extremely effective military campaign agaisnt Orlais, and only the combiend might of the human nations of Thedas was enough to defeat the Dales.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There's nothing to twist and turn about the Dalish trying to survive, with the loss of their homeland. [/quote] 

I don't care about their reasoning. They are breaking the laws of the countries they encroach on. They are trespassers at best and marauders at worst. They can either unite and recreate their homeland, or tehy can fall in line and start abiding by the laws the nations they encroach on set. i couldn't give less of a f*ck about their culture. [/quote]

They are men, women, and children trying to survive, and maintain their culture.
[/quote] 
So? If the maintenance of the culture breaks the laws of the nation they are encroaching on, they a open season... If they want to practice whatever rituals their culture demands, they can go ahead and do so in a nation of their own. Not in nations which have very specific laws against it.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You don't know the Dalish version is incorrect.

Other nations got involved once the Dalish were clearly winning the war against Orlais and the Chantry, but Orlais and the Chantry were fighting the Dalish long before then, which is the entire point.[/quote]

No, the Chantry weren't involved at all until Val Royaux itself was threatened. And only after Val Royaux was sacked did the other human nations of Thedas join the war, and defeated the Elven forces. [/quote]

No, the other Andrastian nations didn't get involved until the Chantry declared an Exalted March against the Dales.[/quote]
Which was exactly what I just said..... The March didn't get declared until Val Royaux was under siege, ergo the Chantry didn't involve itself until then. And the other human nations didn't join until after Val Royaux had fallen.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Simply because it's legal doesn't make it right.

 

Same could be said about the Dalish: Just because it is their culture, doesn't make it acceptable.

I don't see anything morally reprehensible about the Dalish wanting to worship their religion freely, and without persecution.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that their source is Orlais, it's still the Orlesian version of events. It's still the claim by Orlais that the Dalish attacked the Orlesians unprovoked, which contradicts the Dalish version of events that the war was provoked with the incursion of the templars into their territory.

 

The Orlesians made no such claim. Orlais admit that there were extreme tensions between Orlais and the Dales. What they do claim, is that the Dalish struck first.
What historians claim, is that we will never know who struck first, but that the tension between the two nations had been at critical mass for a long time, and that the Dalish led an extremely effective military campaign agaisnt Orlais, and only the combiend might of the human nations of Thedas was enough to defeat the Dales.

The Orlesian version of the fall of the Dales comes directly from the Chantry: their historical account was written by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar. The Dalish claim is made in their story of "The Long Walk," where they address the fall of the Dales: "The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars."

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They are men, women, and children trying to survive, and maintain their culture.

 

So? If the maintenance of the culture breaks the laws of the nation they are encroaching on, they a open season... If they want to practice whatever rituals their culture demands, they can go ahead and do so in a nation of their own. Not in nations which have very specific laws against it.

The elves had a homeland, and it was taken from them. Twice.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, the other Andrastian nations didn't get involved until the Chantry declared an Exalted March against the Dales.

Which was exactly what I just said..... The March didn't get declared until Val Royaux was under siege, ergo the Chantry didn't involve itself until then. And the other human nations didn't join until after Val Royaux had fallen.

Your claim contradicts the Chantry scholar, Sister Petrine, who said the Chantry responded after the attack on Red Crossing. Apparently, even according to the Orlesian account of events, the Chantry were involved in the battle before the other nations become involved.

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So? If the maintenance of the culture breaks the laws of the nation they are encroaching on, they a open season... If they want to practice whatever rituals their culture demands, they can go ahead and do so in a nation of their own. Not in nations which have very specific laws against it.

They had one once.  I'm lead to believe it was a very nice one in fact.  The problem is that there's a bunch of Orlesians living there now.  Give the Dalish a break.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Simply because it's legal doesn't make it right. [/quote] 

Same could be said about the Dalish: Just because it is their culture, doesn't make it acceptable. [/quote]

I don't see anything morally reprehensible about the Dalish wanting to worship their religion freely, and without persecution.
[/quote]  
Nope. But is is hopelessly anti-societal that they think themselves raised above the laws of the countries they encroach on, and then have the Audacity to act like victims whenever these nations try and enforce their laws. Why should a glorified bunch of squatters be raised above the law so they can worship their forbidden gods?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that their source is Orlais, it's still the Orlesian version of events. It's still the claim by Orlais that the Dalish attacked the Orlesians unprovoked, which contradicts the Dalish version of events that the war was provoked with the incursion of the templars into their territory. [/quote] 

The Orlesians made no such claim. Orlais admit that there were extreme tensions between Orlais and the Dales. What they do claim, is that the Dalish struck first.
What historians claim, is that we will never know who struck first, but that the tension between the two nations had been at critical mass for a long time, and that the Dalish led an extremely effective military campaign agaisnt Orlais, and only the combiend might of the human nations of Thedas was enough to defeat the Dales. [/quote]

The Orlesian version of the fall of the Dales comes directly from the Chantry: their historical account was written by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar. The Dalish claim is made in their story of "The Long Walk," where they address the fall of the Dales: "The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars."
[/quote]  
The Orlesian account only makes claims to who started the war. As far as we know anyway, since all we got of the Orlesian version is half a line.... The Dalish source fails to even mention the Exalted Marches let alone a war, it is compeltely worthless to try and ascertain what happened. It doesn't add anything we didn't know previously and it is horribly biased that it is simply trashcan filler.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

They are men, women, and children trying to survive, and maintain their culture. [/quote] 

So? If the maintenance of the culture breaks the laws of the nation they are encroaching on, they a open season... If they want to practice whatever rituals their culture demands, they can go ahead and do so in a nation of their own. Not in nations which have very specific laws against it. [/quote]

The elves had a homeland, and it was taken from them. Twice.
[/quote]  
Yes. You would've thought that the Elves had learned their lesson the first time.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No, the other Andrastian nations didn't get involved until the Chantry declared an Exalted March against the Dales.[/quote]

Which was exactly what I just said..... The March didn't get declared until Val Royaux was under siege, ergo the Chantry didn't involve itself until then. And the other human nations didn't join until after Val Royaux had fallen. [/quote]

Your claim contradicts the Chantry scholar, Sister Petrine, who said the Chantry responded after the attack on Red Crossing. Apparently, even according to the Orlesian account of events, the Chantry were involved in the battle before the other nations become involved.[/quote]
It doesn't contradict anything. What Petrine is describing is not a detailed exploration of the Exalted March on the Dales. But rather or rather quick run down of what happened. It is almost as worthless as the Dalish source, but at least the orlesian one acknowledges that tehre was a war at all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lazy Jer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So? If the maintenance of the culture breaks the laws of the nation they are encroaching on, they a open season... If they want to practice whatever rituals their culture demands, they can go ahead and do so in a nation of their own. Not in nations which have very specific laws against it.

They had one once.  I'm lead to believe it was a very nice one in fact.  The problem is that there's a bunch of Orlesians living there now.  Give the Dalish a break.

I'm betting that it is the claims of the Dalish that makes you believe it was a nice place? Apparently it wasn't such a nice place at all, since it didn't allow for its citizens to have freedom of religion, and apparently only limited access to human traders. Actually the dales sounds just as horrible a place to live like anywhere else in Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see anything morally reprehensible about the Dalish wanting to worship their religion freely, and without persecution.

  

Nope. But is is hopelessly anti-societal that they think themselves raised above the laws of the countries they encroach on, and then have the Audacity to act like victims whenever these nations try and enforce their laws. Why should a glorified bunch of squatters be raised above the law so they can worship their forbidden gods?

You mean when the templars try to murder their elven mages?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Orlesian version of the fall of the Dales comes directly from the Chantry: their historical account was written by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar. The Dalish claim is made in their story of "The Long Walk," where they address the fall of the Dales: "The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars."

 

The Orlesian account only makes claims to who started the war. As far as we know anyway, since all we got of the Orlesian version is half a line.... The Dalish source fails to even mention the Exalted Marches let alone a war, it is compeltely worthless to try and ascertain what happened. It doesn't add anything we didn't know previously and it is horribly biased that it is simply trashcan filler.

I don't see why you think it's worthless or biased, especially when the Orlesian version makes claims about human sacrifices that seem utterly ridiculous from what we have seen of the Dalish clans. What the Dalish claim started the war is the other side of the story, from the Dalish POV.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves had a homeland, and it was taken from them. Twice.

 

Yes. You would've thought that the Elves had learned their lesson the first time.

Tevinter enslaved them. The Orlesian Empire and the Chantry of Andraste engaged them in a war, with both sides claiming that the other started it. What lesson was there to learn?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your claim contradicts the Chantry scholar, Sister Petrine, who said the Chantry responded after the attack on Red Crossing. Apparently, even according to the Orlesian account of events, the Chantry were involved in the battle before the other nations become involved.

It doesn't contradict anything. What Petrine is describing is not a detailed exploration of the Exalted March on the Dales. But rather or rather quick run down of what happened. It is almost as worthless as the Dalish source, but at least the orlesian one acknowledges that tehre was a war at all.

When the Chantry version claims that the Chantry became involved as a response to what transpired at Red Crossing, it is contradicting your claim. The Orlesian version claims the Dalish attacked them, unprovoked. The Dalish version addresses the war started when the missionaries were kicked out of the Dales, and the Chantry sent in templars. It's two versions from two different sides of the war. I don't see how you can seriously dismiss the Dalish version as "worthless."

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm betting that it is the claims of the Dalish that makes you believe it was a nice place? Apparently it wasn't such a nice place at all, since it didn't allow for its citizens to have freedom of religion, and apparently only limited access to human traders. Actually the dales sounds just as horrible a place to live like anywhere else in Thedas.

I'm not arguing nice, I'm agruing rights.  The Qunari culture sounds utterly horrid, to me anyway, but they have a right to their culture, so do the Dalish as long as their culture doesn't demand the death of all humans.  Religious intollerence isn't just found in the Dales by the way.  Orzimmar is pretty intollerant of a new chantry building, if you'll remember and when elves relocated to the city's after the war in question they were forced to drop their old gods and accept the maker.  Now whether Ferelden/Free Marsh cities would accept worship of non-maker gods is unclear since there aren't any temples from other gods in those cities.

[Lynata]

"There, in the Dales, our people revived the lost lore as best they could, and even turned to worship the old gods in their ancient prison. They called their first city Halamshiral, 'the end of the journey,' and founded a new nation, isolated as elves were meant to be. They created an order called The Emerald Knights and charged them with watching the borders for trouble with the humans.

But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors’ worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit. In protest, a small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act that prompted the Chantry to attack and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales. We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans as second class citizens and worship their Maker, slowly forgetting once more the scraps of lore we had maintained through the centuries. Those that refused were forced to wander, landless and friendless in their wagons, across a world that told them they were unwelcome."
- http://greywardens.com/lore/elves/ 

In short, there was a religious dispute between the Chantry and the Dalish, but the conflict only became bloody when a band of rogue elves, not in representation of all their people, slaughtered a human village. You may argue that the Chantry was jumping at this as an excuse to launch its Exalted March, but either way the first blood was spilled by Dalish and it is somewhat understandable that many humans would have jumped to conclusions. Happens the other way around as well, anyways.

--

DKJaigen wrote...
Yes and the mages should kill all templars because power corrupts them as well. and then the chantry then the noblemen and then the kings and queens because power corrupts. Or we can just agree that this argument is just bull****.

If you can't fathom the difference between a corrupted mage wielding fireballs and summoning demons and a corrupted guy with a sword, then all we can agree on is that we disagree on this subject.

DKJaigen wrote... 
You have no proof of this. No where in the lore does it say that regular use of bloodmagic weakens the veil. We only know that a bloodmage can sunder the veil and summon demons but thats it. In fact in one vague piece of information suggests that bloodmagic is safer to use then regular magic because you dont need to draw power from the fade. Which makes sense because you use your own blood.

You use your blood as a substitute to mana and to make your magic even stronger, you are still reliant on a connection to the Fade. Do you really believe all it takes is cutting yourself and your blood "just happens" to turn into something else without any other mysterious energy involved?

"It was common practice, at one time, for a magister to keep a number of slaves on hand so that, should he undertake the working of a spell that was physically beyond his abilities, he could use the blood of his slaves to bolster the casting."
-- src

And as we know, the more magical energy is pulled through the Veil, the weaker it gets. So obviously, blood magic -> stronger -> Veil becomes weaker.

katiebour wrote...
The Circles have been annuled seventeen times in the history of Thedas thus far.  A single group of people has have been imprisoned on thought-crime for a thousand years, and from time to time the guys in power decide simply to kill everyone within their jail, Harrowed or not, innocent or guilty, simply because they can and because they are afraid.

Actually, I'd say this is commonly done because even Circles can get out of control and because demons summoned by the inhabitants are a bit of a dangerous thing. The incident that led to the Right of Annulment being invented in the first place had an abomination escape a Circle tower and go on a killing spree to kill numerous innocent townsfolk. But I guess you'd just regard this risk as more amiable than simply expecting the couple dozen mages in a tower to keep their act together and not engage in bull**** research into forbidden topics just because they're either naively curious, power-hungry or mad at the Chantry.

katiebour wrote... 
A just society cannot condemn tens of thousands of innocent people to imprisonment, torture, and death based on a "maybe."  Imagine the good these people could do in protecting, serving, and healing their fellow man across the country.  How many innocent lives would be saved?

Typical pro-mage propaganda - can we argue based on what it says in official decrees and laws instead of resorting to individual incidents? Otherwise it all falls back to "every templar is an evil fascist" versus "every mage is a crazy warlock trafficking with demons", which isn't good grounds for a discussion at all.

Also, as you've read the DA RPG I am sure you know that the Chantry sends out its mages to assist in a crisis; it is even said that the very reason the Circles exist as they currently do is to preserve the mages' unique combat abilities against the darkspawn.

That you expect all these mages to simply volunteer for public service if the Circles would not exist is ... well, let's just say my faith in human society is not as "extensive" as yours. From what I see, civilization teaches people to take what they can, thus it stands to reason the majority of mages would serve themselves rather than serve their countries, just like it is with the nobles. We only have to look to Tevinter to see what happens with mages in a "free" society.

katiebour wrote...
Magisters in Tevinter deal in politics.  But they also do research, fight in the war against the Qunari, or act in trade, much like any other noble group.  Nothing in that description implies that they all keep slaves, or use blood magic, or are irreversibly and morally corrupt.

Well, they certainly don't seem to do anything against it either.

See, it's like modern day politics. To rise to the top, you need power and influence, which is more easy to gain with unsavoury means than honesty and a good idea. And since a mage's position in Tevinter is determined by his magical powers, and since blood magic gives people more power, it is not very surprising to see blood magic is on the rise again in the Imperium.

And I reckon it won't take long until they start sacrificing slaves again. After all, that'd mean even more power for the magisters. History has a tendency to repeat itself, and mankind doesn't change as much as you seem to give it credit for. 

LobselVith8 wrote...
In other words, Marethari made an assumption with no evidence to support it.

Marethari's assumptions are based on the Dalish' experience with magic and demons and thus no less valuable than Merrill's assumptions based on Dalish lore and what a friggin' demon tells her.

LobselVith8 wrote... 
If Audacity managed to manipulate Marethari into freeing it from its totem, then certainly.

Or Merrill, mhm?

LobselVith8 wrote...
I trust the person who actually knows what they are talking about, rather than the person who jumps from one baseless assumption to another.

Merrill: "I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
Anders: "Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!"

I'm sorry, but in the context of this quest, Merrill (as much as I like her - I think she's quite cute!) just comes across as a giant douche who has no idea what she's dealing with. She could as well run around with a Derpina mask. Naivety + blood magic + trapped demon = bad combination. But hey, that's just, like, my opinion.

Modifié par Lynata, 30 mars 2012 - 06:51 .

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

In short, there was a religious dispute between the Chantry and the Dalish, but the conflict only became bloody when a band of rogue elves, not in representation of all their people, slaughtered a human village. You may argue that the Chantry was jumping at this as an excuse to launch its Exalted March, but either way the first blood was spilled by Dalish and it is somewhat understandable that many humans would have jumped to conclusions. Happens the other way around as well, anyways.

The Orlesian version is certainly that the elven attack on Red Crossing was unprovoked, but the contention from the Dalish is that the war started when the Chantry sent in templars after the elves kicked out their missionaries.

Lynata wrote...

Merrill: "I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
Anders: "Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!"

I'm sorry, but in the context of this quest, Merrill just comes across as a giant douche who has no idea what she's dealing with. She could as well run around with a Derpina mask. Naivety + blood magic + trapped demon = bad combination. But hey, that's just, like, my opinion.

We see Merrill's intelligence time and again. We also see her being sarcastic. When she's serious, the message gets across loud and clear:

Merrill: Are you all right?

Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?

Merrill: I'm sorry.

Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!

Merrill: Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 30 mars 2012 - 06:56 .

[TobiTobsen]

Lynata wrote...

"There, in the Dales, our people revived the lost lore as best they could, and even turned to worship the old gods in their ancient prison. They called their first city Halamshiral, 'the end of the journey,' and founded a new nation, isolated as elves were meant to be. They created an order called The Emerald Knights and charged them with watching the borders for trouble with the humans.

But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors’ worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit. In protest, a small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act that prompted the Chantry to attack and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales. We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans as second class citizens and worship their Maker, slowly forgetting once more the scraps of lore we had maintained through the centuries. Those that refused were forced to wander, landless and friendless in their wagons, across a world that told them they were unwelcome."
- http://greywardens.com/lore/elves/ 

In short, there was a religious dispute between the Chantry and the Dalish, but the conflict only became bloody when a band of rogue elves, not in representation of all their people, slaughtered a human village. You may argue that the Chantry was jumping at this as an excuse to launch its Exalted March, but either way the first blood was spilled by Dalish and it is somewhat understandable that many humans would have jumped to conclusions. Happens the other way around as well, anyways.

The timeline from the official game guide from the collectors edition actually says the following:

• 2:5 Glory: Increasing hostility between elves and man result in numerous border skirmishes between the Dales and Orlais. Finally, in 2:9 Glory, elven forces attack the Orlesian town of Red Crossing and quickly take it over. The atrocities they are said to have committed there against the humans of the town and the Chantry enraged humans across the land. Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales, but was initially surprised by the ferocity of the elven response. A quick Orlesian victory was not going to happen.

• 2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard and marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for a holy war against the elves. This becomes known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sack Val Royeaux and push well into human lands, Halamshiral is conquered and the elves are completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The lands of the Dales come under Orlesian control, with elven settlements being uprooted and worship of the elven gods forbidden. The elves are forced to either live with humankind under
  their rule or wander as homeless vagabonds.

I don't know if the guide is also written in character, but if not I would rather take those informations at face value than the propaganda from either side in the codex entries.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 30 mars 2012 - 07:09 .

[Lynata]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Orlesian version is certainly that the elven attack on Red Crossing was unprovoked, but the contention from the Dalish is that the war started when the Chantry sent in templars after the elves kicked out their missionaries.

Well, with Keeper Ralaferin there is at least one Dalish historian that backs up the Orlesian version. Just because some elves have conveniently forgotten about Red Crossing doesn't mean the event never occurred - it would explain a drastically different perception of history, though.

Either way, I think Ralaferin's account is the most accurate, simply because it incorporates "bad things" from both sides. Where Orlesian history omits the pressure of its missionaries and where some elves don't talk about Red Crossing, Ralaferin weaves it all into a coherent tale where both sides have made mistakes, which often is the most realistic explanation for bloody conflict between nations that otherwise preach peaceful cooperation.

LobselVith8 wrote... 
We see Merrill's intelligence time and again.

Of course, she isn't dumb. There's a difference between intelligence and wisdom, though. You can be clever, yet utterly naive (what I claim Merril is) because you lack the experience in that area. Just like you can be experienced but still stupid (what you claim Maratheri is).

Sorry if it came across differently.

TobiTobsen wrote...
The timeline from the official game guide from the collectors edition ...

Dammit, I may need this book. Who would've thought that game guides actually contain interesting background? 

Modifié par Lynata, 30 mars 2012 - 07:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

There was never any question that Red Crossing was attacked and pillaged by Elves. Unless of course you read the Dalish source, which claims they were the eternal victims and never even went to war with Orlais. But then again, I have already pointed out why that source is worthless.

[dragonflight288]

The Dalish have also forgotten a lot, or lost a lot as a result of losing their homeland twice and had to deal with the prejudice of humans who for centuries never viewed elves as anything better than a servant (Quartermaster at Ostagar, Vaughn, templar about ready to attack Dalish in DA2, the dalish in Act 3 saying the templars have been making veiled threats against them unless they convert, the city elves view of themselves after having been influenced by humans for so long, and even the elven maidservant a male Cousland can flirt with in his origin story) compared to humans like Hawke who can find ways for themselves to go from rags to riches.

I'm all for letting dead dogs lay buried. I don't want to bring up a war that happened centuries previous. The Dalish have a version that matches the Chantrie's history. Orlais and the Chantry have a version that matches the dalish's own prejudices and hatreds at an extreme. (Zathrian, punishing a group of werewolves for all eternity for the wretched and horrible crimes they ancestors committed centuries before they lived, that one storyteller absolutely chafing over the fact that he has to rely on a non-dalish to help his people, and would almost let their hunters die rather than let an outsider aid them. Almost, but still relents, and is a huge jerk over what their people suffered in the past, irregardless of the person standing in front of him.)

As far as I've ever been concerned, both the Chantry and ancient Dalish have dirty laundry. My personal opinion has been that the Chantry has a bit more of it to hide, because they may or may not be aware of more, because the Dalish would have lost so much.

[Urzon]

TobiTobsen wrote...

The timeline from the official game guide from the collectors edition actually says the following:

• 2:5 Glory: Increasing hostility between elves and man result in numerous border skirmishes between the Dales and Orlais. Finally, in 2:9 Glory, elven forces attack the Orlesian town of Red Crossing and quickly take it over. The atrocities they are said to have committed there against the humans of the town and the Chantry enraged humans across the land. Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales, but was initially surprised by the ferocity of the elven response. A quick Orlesian victory was not going to happen.

• 2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard and marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for a holy war against the elves. This becomes known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sack Val Royeaux and push well into human lands, Halamshiral is conquered and the elves are completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The lands of the Dales come under Orlesian control, with elven settlements being uprooted and worship of the elven gods forbidden. The elves are forced to either live with humankind under
  their rule or wander as homeless vagabonds.

I don't know if the guide is also written in character, but if not I would rather take those informations at face value than the propaganda from either side in the codex entries.

This seems more credible than some vague codexes. It would seem that the tensions between the Dale and Orlais/Chantry have been going on for awhile with the border skirmishes. With the tension raising, I can see the Dalish kicking out the Chantry missionaries. The Dalish didn't want them trying to convert them, and they did want them to be reporting back information to their higher ups.

The Chantry angered by this sent the templars in to help protect the missionaries from any threats to their persons, and to continue their convertion mission. Because lets face it, the Dalish were probably anything but gentle when kicking them out. The Dalish gather again to kick the missionaries and templars. Things get out of hand and a fight starts. Templars seeing the threat to the missionaries (and themselves) kill the mob of elves.

The war itself didn't get started until the Dalish went into Orlaisian territory and sacked Red Crossing. After that was years of fighting, the Dalish were winning the war against Orlais. But when they threatened the heart of the Chantry by attacking Val Royeaux, the Chantry was able to call an Exalted March to protect itself. Which ultimatly won the War of the Dales.

Moral of the story... Like most wasr, both sides hands were dirty, and they both had their part in starting it.

Modifié par Urzon, 31 mars 2012 - 04:36 .

[DKJaigen]

Considering the politics of the chantry and the dalish i tend to believe the dalish side far more then the chantry.

[Shadowvalker]

Any person or persons that don't accept that I wont have anything to do with their religion and still comes knocking on my door - well they asked for a fight - they get a fight!

Trying to force upon others ones own beliefs is wrong and I concider it an invasion! I'll defend my self anyway I can!

With that in mind I don't see that the Dalish have done anyting wrong! Even by invading Orlais!

[Urzon]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Any person or persons that don't accept that I wont have anything to do with their religion and still comes knocking on my door - well they asked for a fight - they get a fight!

Trying to force upon others ones own beliefs is wrong and I concider it an invasion! I'll defend my self anyway I can!

With that in mind I don't see that the Dalish have done anyting wrong! Even by invading Orlais!

They correct answer to this is, "Thank you,but i'm happy with my belief right now. I'm not looking for another." You then politly close the door. At least that is what i do when the Jehovah Witnesses and the Mormons knock on mine.

Sure, it was more hellfire and brimstone (or Void equivalent for the Chantry) back in the olden days. It's alot easier to ignore it or ask it to leave, than it is to go looking for a fight and just cause more trouble.

[Shadowvalker]

And if they next time sent some "templar's" to protect their priest? You would still be so bloody polite and kindly ask them to leave? Wow! I am speechless!

[Urzon]

Shadowvalker wrote...

And if they next time sent some "templar's" to protect their priest? You would still be so bloody polite and kindly ask them to leave? Wow! I am speechless!

Yes, i would. Or better yet, i would just simply walk away the next time one of the misionaries gets into the whole, "Your heathen soul will burn in the internal fires of the Void" speech again. I very much doubt the templars would attack someone who hasn't done anything other than walk away. They can only do it now and get away with it because the elves have no nation, and they are scattered. It's a different story when they are in the center of an Elvaan nation completely surrounded by elvish forces with no chance of escape.

Will the templars attack me (or the elves) for doing nothing but ignoring them and the missionaries? I doubt it.

Will they fight to defend themselve if the elves form a lynch mob to forcfully eject them for the Dales? Ya, most likely.

Modifié par Urzon, 31 mars 2012 - 01:41 .