1194 réponses à ce sujet

[Lynata]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish clans, and the seers and witches in the Kingdom of Rivain demonstrate that free mages do not equal the Tevinter Imperium.

Except that the Circle mages come from an entirely different culture than the ones you are presenting as an archetype here, cultivating drastically different values and thus resulting in different personalities/inhibitions to magical abuse or possession. It seems you keep forgetting this ... or rather you keep ignoring it, given that it sort of hampers your argumentation.

You equating the mages of an egoism-fostering dog-eat-dog society to immortal elves disinterested in furthering personal agendas or tribal shamans and seers devoted to the wellbeing of tiny communes is not something we'll ever agree on, however, so ... I don't see the value in discussing it further.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Tevinter enforces slavery against mages and non-mages. It's hardly a proper example of a society of "free mages" when many of them are actually slaves.

It's a perfect example of mages being just as egoistic as the majority of the population - the difference being their powers granting them much more effective (and terrible) means to climb the social ladder. And since blood magic, demonology and mind control lending an even greater influence ... well, here we're arriving at why I'm convinced of the need for a safety mechanism.

Here's an excerpt from Asunder, whilst we're at it - the motivations of Lord Seeker Lambert:

"I left because the Circle of Magi had been corrupted beyond hope of redemption. The magisters slowly took back power within the Circle . . . inch by inch. After all, what harm could there be in allowing the mages to govern themselves? Who better to know what mages need, and how to teach them to resist the lures of demons?"
"Those are excellent questions," she said.
"I agree. At the time, I believed the answer was yes, that the mages  were best served when trained by their own." He noticed Evangeline's incredulous look, and almost smiled. "I did not begin my service convinced they could not be trusted. How many of us do?"
"Considering what the Chantry teaches us ..."
He shrugged. "I entered the order because I believed I could make things better. I found allies among the magisters, and I was convinced they could serve as examples for the others. One I even considered a friend. Together we  were going to change the world."
"And he betrayed you."
The Lord Seeker shook his head. "He became the Black Divine. The perfect position to make our dreams a reality, yet once there it became more about keeping his power than using it. Those who sought to replace him turned to forbidden arts, and he did the same to compete. I had no idea."
Evangeline was hesitant to speak. "You can't be blamed."
"I can. My investigations turned up less and less. The templars became stonewalled, unable to look into even the simplest matter,and I refused to accept it was because those mages - men and women I had helped rise - did not wish their own corruption revealed."
"But you found out eventually."
His laugh was a short and bitter bark. "Yes. I confronted my friend, and he told me I was naive. He said I knew nothing of power... But I learned a great deal that day."

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that mages have been fighting against the Chantry controlled Circles for centuries, with Aldenon the Great and his renegade mages fighting against the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars during the formation of Ferelden, and centuries later with the rebellion at the Circle of Ferelden, it's not surprising that the Circles of Magi have broken free from the Chantry and its templars.

"Not surprising"? All of this happened only because of the Kirkwall incident. You act like every single mage in the circles wanted independence - which is simply not true. They had even voted against it, with Archmage Wynne's argumentation swaying the assembled enchanters.

Aldenon and his mages didn't even belong to the Circle in the first place, they simply refused to join it. And of course you will have various mages attempting to break out or assume control time and time again, yet all of this cannot be compared to a full-scale rebellion the likes of which Thedas is about to face now. No - this kind of resistance is a direct result of an increase in pressure by the templars ... an increase which would not have happened without Anders blowing up a chantry cathedral, without the Grand Enchanter abusing the right to convene again to incite independence, and without the Lord Seeker's trust lost at the hands of the mage now ruling Tevinter.

Peace has been sabotaged again and again with far more severe actions than in the centuries past, and it is the combination of circumstances that have led to the mage-templar war. This has not been "long in the making". You may argue that the groundwork - the oppression - has always been there, but without Anders the compromise may have held indefinitely, or at least long enough for Divine Justinia to reform the Circle. All of Thedas will now bleed for this.

Modifié par Lynata, 09 avril 2012 - 05:55 .

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish clans, and the seers and witches in the Kingdom of Rivain demonstrate that free mages do not equal the Tevinter Imperium.

Except that the Circle mages come from an entirely different culture than the ones you are presenting as an archetype here, cultivating drastically different values and thus resulting in different personalities/inhibitions to magical abuse or possession. It seems you keep forgetting this ... or rather you keep ignoring it, given that it sort of hampers your argumentation.

You equating the mages of an egoism-fostering dog-eat-dog society to immortal elves disinterested in furthering personal agendas or tribal shamans and seers devoted to the wellbeing of tiny communes is not something we'll ever agree on, however, so ... I don't see the value in discussing it further.

The Avvar, the Chasind, and the seers and witches in Rivain are humans, not aliens. We've seen some of the Chasind in Lothering (in Origins), we've seen some people from Rivain (like Isabela). I don't see how you can claim that their societies are so different that they can't be compared. It seems like you would like to distance the societies of free mages from your example because they disprove your claim that free mages = Tevinter when they stand in direct opposition to that claim, as societies that prove that free mages do not equal the Tevinter Imperium.

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Tevinter enforces slavery against mages and non-mages. It's hardly a proper example of a society of "free mages" when many of them are actually slaves.

It's a perfect example of mages being just as egoistic as the majority of the population - the difference being their powers granting them much more effective (and terrible) means to climb the social ladder. And since blood magic, demonology and mind control lending an even greater influence ... well, here we're arriving at why I'm convinced of the need for a safety mechanism.

Here's an excerpt from Asunder, whilst we're at it - the motivations of Lord Seeker Lambert:

"I left because the Circle of Magi had been corrupted beyond hope of redemption. The magisters slowly took back power within the Circle . . . inch by inch. After all, what harm could there be in allowing the mages to govern themselves? Who better to know what mages need, and how to teach them to resist the lures of demons?"
"Those are excellent questions," she said.
"I agree. At the time, I believed the answer was yes, that the mages  were best served when trained by their own." He noticed Evangeline's incredulous look, and almost smiled. "I did not begin my service convinced they could not be trusted. How many of us do?"
"Considering what the Chantry teaches us ..."
He shrugged. "I entered the order because I believed I could make things better. I found allies among the magisters, and I was convinced they could serve as examples for the others. One I even considered a friend. Together we  were going to change the world."
"And he betrayed you."
The Lord Seeker shook his head. "He became the Black Divine. The perfect position to make our dreams a reality, yet once there it became more about keeping his power than using it. Those who sought to replace him turned to forbidden arts, and he did the same to compete. I had no idea."
Evangeline was hesitant to speak. "You can't be blamed."
"I can. My investigations turned up less and less. The templars became stonewalled, unable to look into even the simplest matter,and I refused to accept it was because those mages - men and women I had helped rise - did not wish their own corruption revealed."
"But you found out eventually."
His laugh was a short and bitter bark. "Yes. I confronted my friend, and he told me I was naive. He said I knew nothing of power... But I learned a great deal that day."

I seem to recall many women being taken out of the Alienage in broad daylight to get raped by Vaughan and his friends at his estate. Even Grey Warden Duncan - who had the ear of King Cailan - was powerless, as was a member of the clergy who was going to marry two elven couples. People in power can abuse that power. We see that example in Kirkwall, with templars like Alrik and Kerras.

As for the Chantry controlled Circle, I don't see that as the answer - oppressing men, women, and children in a system that is outright criticized as slavery - a label that no single character in the narrative ever dismisses, even if they support the Chantry controlled Circles, (including Fenris and Sebastian) - is hardly a "safety mechanism," especially when mages are so powerless that they can be made tranquil and raped by templars with impunity.

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that mages have been fighting against the Chantry controlled Circles for centuries, with Aldenon the Great and his renegade mages fighting against the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars during the formation of Ferelden, and centuries later with the rebellion at the Circle of Ferelden, it's not surprising that the Circles of Magi have broken free from the Chantry and its templars.

"Not surprising"? All of this happened only because of the Kirkwall incident. You act like every single mage in the circles wanted independence - which is simply not true. They had even voted against it, with Archmage Wynne's argumentation swaying the assembled enchanters.

Wynne's argument to The Warden in Amaranthine is that the Chantry would rather kill every single mage than see them free. It's an argument to prevent the genocide of mages. And even Wynne admitted that enough mages wanted freedom that she seriously thought that there would be a victory for the Circles breaking free, as even Ines commented on the fact that Wynne was desperate enough to turn to her for help.

Lynata wrote...

Aldenon and his mages didn't even belong to the Circle in the first place, they simply refused to join it. And of course you will have various mages attempting to break out or assume control time and time again, yet all of this cannot be compared to a full-scale rebellion the likes of which Thedas is about to face now. No - this kind of resistance is a direct result of an increase in pressure by the templars ... an increase which would not have happened without Anders blowing up a chantry cathedral, without the Grand Enchanter abusing the right to convene again to incite independence, and without the Lord Seeker's trust lost at the hands of the mage now ruling Tevinter.

Aldenon saw the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, and his people fought against it - so my point stands that there have been mages who have historically fought against it. There was also the rebellion at the Circle of Ferelden, with mages who fought to be free from the Chantry controlled Circle. The Hero of Ferelden can refer to the Circle as a "prison" and an "oppressive place," and neither label is contested by Wynne; in fact, she argues that The Warden can change that the Circle is an oppressive place if he takes a leadership position in the Circle of Ferelden. She says that, given time, he might be able to get more freedoms for the Circle.

The Hero of Ferelden can even ask the ruler of Ferelden to give his people their independence, and the moderate First Enchanter Irving is enthusiastic about it, even saying that their people have freed from "their shackles." Your notion that all this started with Anders simply doesn't add up.

Lynata wrote...

Peace has been sabotaged again and again with far more severe actions than in the centuries past, and it is the combination of circumstances that have led to the mage-templar war. This has not been "long in the making". You may argue that the groundwork - the oppression - has always been there, but without Anders the compromise may have held indefinitely, or at least long enough for Divine Justinia to reform the Circle. All of Thedas will now bleed for this.

It's not peace when you're subjugating an entire group of people, and it's not a compromise, either. The fact that the Chantry and the templars have all the power, while the mages are at their mercy, is evidence of that.

[Lynata]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see how you can claim that their societies are so different that they can't be compared. It seems like you would like to distance the societies of free mages from your example because they disprove your claim that free mages = Tevinter when they stand in direct opposition to that claim, as societies that prove that free mages do not equal the Tevinter Imperium.

Oh, I'm just of the opinion that what you're saying is akin to "the Native Americans didn't know corruption, so why should corruption have to exist in modern day capitalist economy?"
Which is a very idealistic perception, but obviously not how the world actually turns. Society does affect the values and morals people grow up with, and said values and morals directly influence their ambitions and reservations - and so, in the case of the Dragon Age setting, the resistance against both demonic corruption as well as the temptation of abusing one's power.

So in a way, yes, indeed these cultures are very alien when compared to each other. If you cannot see that, I'm sorry. Go ahead and claim that there's no culture  clash between, say, the Dalish and Orlais. >_>

LobselVith8 wrote...
People in power can abuse that power.

Exactly - and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
And since magic does make people gifted with this ability vastly more powerful than ... "mundanes", mages apparently call them ... you see where this is going.

LobselVith8 wrote...
[...] especially when mages are so powerless that they can be made tranquil and raped by templars with impunity.

The recent shortcomings of a single templar garrison where both the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter responsible failed to cultivate a working relationship are not representative of the system as a whole.

It's both funny and sad how you continuously keep falling back to Kirkwall but then turn around and complain about people pulling blood mages as examples for mages as a whole.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Wynne's argument to The Warden in Amaranthine is that the Chantry would rather kill every single mage than see them free. It's an argument to prevent the genocide of mages.

This is not the argument she made in front of the conclave. Wynne actually sees the dangers that uncontrolled magic poses and realizes that too many people simply need guidance and cannot be left for themselves, lest they succumb to the lure. In short: Wynne understands.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Aldenon saw the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, and his people fought against it - so my point stands that there have been mages who have historically fought against it.

As I said, there have and will always be mages fighting against the Circle. Their justifications aside - this is quite normal. Any society has its rebels, and in many cases, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

The very existence of the Loyalist factions alone invalidates any claim that "the mages" as a whole prefer independence. If you want to say the same of "some mages" or "many mages", then we have consensus - as I said, this I have never disputed.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Your notion that all this started with Anders simply doesn't add up.

It does, given that all you've mentioned has always been there. For centuries. And only now it all breaks down - so obviously things would have remained the same had Anders not set fire to that keg of powder. His action was indeed the act that tipped the scales.

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not peace when you're subjugating an entire group of people, and it's not a compromise, either. The fact that the Chantry and the templars have all the power, while the mages are at their mercy, is evidence of that.

"At their mercy" in a similar vein to all commoners in any Thedan nation being at the mercy of their lord, sure.
Or, actually ... there are Chantry laws supposed to protect the mages from abuse and unjustified execution - I'm not quite sure if this applies to all the common folk in the countries. Ferelden might actually have some basic rights, too, but Orlais?

Modifié par Lynata, 09 avril 2012 - 07:59 .

[prizm123]

LolaLei wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

Well I for example already played an aggressive blood mage who sided with the templars.
His reasons?
He hates every mage except for himself, because he is disgusted by all their weaknesses.
Only he is capable of using (blood) magic without becoming possessed and thus a danger for the society.
So in the end, Fenris and Sebastian were his best friends, Anders was slaughtered, alongside with Merrill and the whole rest of the circle.
And now he plans to commit Genocide on every living mage in whole Thedas, until only he alone is left.

(Now go along and hate me =P)

I didn't even know you could kill Merrill!

the funny thing was that when my mage joined the Templars, Merril joined me as well, and i was nowhere near maxed in friendship or rivalry, i just managed to convince her that it was the right thing to do during the first conversation after i killed Anders.... however, i did let the mages who were escaping Orsino go free, much to Merideth's rage.... she deserved it though, and I didnt realize that she actually helps fight Orsino, which made the fight a lot easier

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see how you can claim that their societies are so different that they can't be compared. It seems like you would like to distance the societies of free mages from your example because they disprove your claim that free mages = Tevinter when they stand in direct opposition to that claim, as societies that prove that free mages do not equal the Tevinter Imperium.[/quote]

Oh, I'm just of the opinion that what you're saying is akin to "the Native Americans didn't know corruption, so why should corruption have to exist in modern day capitalist economy?" [/quote]

Native Americans are human beings, not mythical creatures out of folklore. People from all over the world, from every society, can experience corruption. I don't see why examples of societies where mages are free shouldn't be addressed when you are claiming that free mages will lead to Tevinter, when that clearly isn't the case with several societies that have mages who aren't controlled.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

Which is a very idealistic perception, but obviously not how the world actually turns. Society does affect the values and morals people grow up with, and said values and morals directly influence their ambitions and reservations - and so, in the case of the Dragon Age setting, the resistance against both demonic corruption as well as the temptation of abusing one's power. [/quote]

Temptation and corruption can happen in any society, but the main difference is that the Andrastian societies condemn all magic and every mage as "cursed," while the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Kingdom of Rivain seem to have a different mindset. It got to the point where First Enchanter Irving is astonished to hear people talking positively about a mage, if the Hero of Ferelden came from the Circle of Ferelden.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

So in a way, yes, indeed these cultures are very alien when compared to each other. If you cannot see that, I'm sorry. Go ahead and claim that there's no culture  clash between, say, the Dalish and Orlais. >_> [/quote]

They are different, not alien. You travel around the world, and you see that there are always differences. You can see the poverty and despair in Mexico, you can see the cobblestone roads in Rome and how tourism has positively impacted their businesses, you can see that while cultures can be different, they are all human. I really don't understand your argument in trying to distance societies because they are different, especially when many societies in Thedas share the common link of having some members of the populace having magical ability.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

People in power can abuse that power.[/quote]

Exactly - and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
And since magic does make people gifted with this ability vastly more powerful than ... "mundanes", mages apparently call them ... you see where this is going. [/quote]

Considering that mages have helped save the world in every single Blight, were the "greatest advantage" to the Chantry led forces in the New Exalted Marches against the Qunari and their advanted technology, and the protagonist in the Fifth Blight can be a mage, I see that magic and mages can be beneficial to the people. Anders using his gift to heal the sick and the impoverished of Kirkwall is evidence of that.

In fact, the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden can become a high noble, have lesser nobles swearing fealty to him, govern the City of Amaranthine, control the arling's army, and command all the Grey Wardens in the nation, and this can lead to him saving the lives of the people in the City of Amaranthine from the darkspawn incursion by the Mother. In spite of having political and military power, the Hero of Ferelden - a mage - can use it to save lives: protecting the farmers, stomping out a political coup, helping the people of Amaranthine, stopping the darkspawn.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[...] especially when mages are so powerless that they can be made tranquil and raped by templars with impunity.[/quote]

The recent shortcomings of a single templar garrison where both the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter responsible failed to cultivate a working relationship are not representative of the system as a whole.

It's both funny and sad how you continuously keep falling back to Kirkwall but then turn around and complain about people pulling blood mages as examples for mages as a whole. [/quote]

That's because I never claim that all templars are evil, I address the problems with the Chantry controlled Circles that leave mages powerless when templars have "divine right" over their lives.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Wynne's argument to The Warden in Amaranthine is that the Chantry would rather kill every single mage than see them free. It's an argument to prevent the genocide of mages.[/quote]

This is not the argument she made in front of the conclave. Wynne actually sees the dangers that uncontrolled magic poses and realizes that too many people simply need guidance and cannot be left for themselves, lest they succumb to the lure. In short: Wynne understands. [/quote]

Wynne argues against a potential genocide in Amarantine, so Wynne understands what the Chantry will do if the mages break free from Chantry control. It's the argument she makes to The Warden, who can be from the Circle of Ferelden, a place he can call a "prison" and an "oppressive place" with no rebuttal from Wynne. In fact, the Hero of Ferelden can advocate the emancipation of the Circle of Ferelden, with the new ruler fully supporting the measure. First Enchanter Irving also supports it, because it frees the mages from "their shackles," as he put it.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Aldenon saw the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, and his people fought against it - so my point stands that there have been mages who have historically fought against it.[/quote]

As I said, there have and will always be mages fighting against the Circle. Their justifications aside - this is quite normal. Any society has its rebels, and in many cases, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

The very existence of the Loyalist factions alone invalidates any claim that "the mages" as a whole prefer independence. If you want to say the same of "some mages" or "many mages", then we have consensus - as I said, this I have never disputed. [/quote]

I never claimd every single mage in existance desires the same thing, I addressed that there are mages who are willing to fight for their freedom, as we see historically from the time of Aldenon the Great, to recently with the mage rebellion in Ferelden. I also pointed out that enough mages sought freedom from the Chantry that Wynne was desperate to get help from Ines to persuade the mages against breaking free from the Chantry, as even Ines addressed to The Warden (because Ines and Wynne detest each other).

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Your notion that all this started with Anders simply doesn't add up.[/quote]

It does, given that all you've mentioned has always been there. For centuries. And only now it all breaks down - so obviously things would have remained the same had Anders not set fire to that keg of powder. His action was indeed the act that tipped the scales. [/quote]

It certainly changed things, but it didn't originate with him. Anders wanted mages to fight for their freedom, but he isn't the first mage to oppose the Chantry controlled Circles. There are mages who have been fighting for their freedom for centuries. It lead to the mage underground in Kirkwall, Anders' involvement after Karl was made tranquil illegally, and Anders killing Grand Cleric Elthina. There are other factors as well, including the Hero of Ferelden asking for his people to be given their independence.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not peace when you're subjugating an entire group of people, and it's not a compromise, either. The fact that the Chantry and the templars have all the power, while the mages are at their mercy, is evidence of that.[/quote]

"At their mercy" in a similar vein to all commoners in any Thedan nation being at the mercy of their lord, sure.
Or, actually ... there are Chantry laws supposed to protect the mages from abuse and unjustified execution - I'm not quite sure if this applies to all the common folk in the countries. Ferelden might actually have some basic rights, too, but Orlais?
[/quote]

No, "at the mercy" of the people who have "divine right" over their very lives, as Cullen pointed out in Act III.

[dragonflight288]

Templars and templar abilities are needed. What ISN'T needed is the Templars controlling the Circles, or even the Chantry controlling the Circles. And we can't use Tevinter as an example of what would happen if the Chantry didn't control the Circles because Tevinter is a completely different country from other Andrastian nations with their own culture and history.

[Lynata]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see why examples of societies where mages are free shouldn't be addressed when you are claiming that free mages will lead to Tevinter, when that clearly isn't the case with several societies that have mages who aren't controlled.

Because the Andrastean societies are much closer to Tevinter than to some tribal society where people quite simply are not subjected to the same vices that ultimately lead to both susceptibility to demonic possession as well as an abuse of arcane talents. In Tevinter, Ferelden, Orlais, people grow up being surrounded by greed and jealousy, exploitation and power plays. They grow up wishing to become so rich that they could live in a palace too, or that they could visit the brothel every single day, or that they'd like to have a dozen servants so they never have to work again. The same isn't true for the Dalish, and neither is it for the Avvar. Not to mention that the latter's shamans aren't even schooled in a way that would make them as powerful/dangerous as a trained Circle mage.

If you don't understand this, we can only agree to disagree. We've been over this enough times.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Temptation and corruption can happen in any society, [...]

Which is why there are still abominations happening. Temptation and corruption would seem to happen in different degrees, however. The tribal societies don't seem to have as much of a problem with their mages because most of them die pretty young (makes you wonder why, doesn't it?) and because they don't regard their ability as an artform. These shamans and hedge wizards never fully develop their potential; their use of magic is in general rather clumsy and thus does not offer them the same power. Lastly, the communal spirit of their tribes prevents most of the temptation that exists in the modern nations.
The Dalish are an exception to the "clumsy" bit, but they are also an exception in that they are even more communal than the humans. For all intents and purposes, theirs is an alien society.

LobselVith8 wrote...
They are different, not alien. You travel around the world, and you see that there are always differences. You can see the poverty and despair in Mexico, you can see the cobblestone roads in Rome and how tourism has positively impacted their businesses, you can see that while cultures can be different, they are all human.

Your argument is flawed as you are comparing fully modernized societies with each other. There is no drastic culture clash between Mexicans and Italians.
A more accurate comparison would be when you look to something like these Peruvian tribes.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I see that magic and mages can be beneficial to the people.

I do not think anyone ever doubted this. The problem is that for all its beneficial potential, there is the potential for abuse. Call me pessimistic, but I am of the opinion that "modernized" civilization does result in more people exploiting each other than people helping each other. Greed, jealousy and pride are powerful urges, and for people who are born with an ability enabling them to get what they want, there will be a big temptation to overcome.

I'm fairly certain the Tevinter Magisters were not always evil, either. At some point, it just became an arms race - with stuff like blood magic, mind control and slave sacrifices providing the most powerful arms to achieve a position of influence. The same path Tevinter is treading once again. The temptation is too big.

LobselVith8 wrote...
That's because I never claim that all templars are evil, I address the problems with the Chantry controlled Circles that leave mages powerless when templars have "divine right" over their lives.

Abuse is not covered by this right. In fact, it goes against both Chantry doctrine as well as the templars' self-stated purpose. It is, in essence, an act of treason - no different than a cop beating a handcuffed innocent suspect. Yet nobody campaigns for abolishing the police (I hope)?

LobselVith8 wrote...
Wynne argues against a potential genocide in Amarantine, so Wynne understands what the Chantry will do if the mages break free from Chantry control. It's the argument she makes to The Warden, who can be from the Circle of Ferelden, a place he can call a "prison" and an "oppressive place" with no rebuttal from Wynne. In fact, the Hero of Ferelden can advocate the emancipation of the Circle of Ferelden, with the new ruler fully supporting the measure. First Enchanter Irving also supports it, because it frees the mages from "their shackles," as he put it.

I know of this, but I am unsure what you are trying to express by it?

Wynne is a realist. She can dislike the measures she herself has been subjected to and still regard them as necessary - just like she knows the Chantry harbors the same sentiment, and will act accordingly if it feels threatened.

LobselVith8 wrote...
It certainly changed things, but it didn't originate with him.

So we actually agree on this.
Him tipping the scales is all I've been saying. Without him, the compromise would have held a.

LobselVith8 wrote...
No, "at the mercy" of the people who have "divine right" over their very lives, as Cullen pointed out in Act III.

And how is this different from noble lords? The King of Ferelden was crowned by the Chantry.
Not to mention that I'm fairly sure that few people see a difference between "divine right" and "secular right" when both are enforced at swordpoint.

dragonflight288 wrote...
Templars and templar abilities
are needed. What ISN'T needed is the Templars controlling the Circles, or even the Chantry controlling the Circles. And we can't use Tevinter as an example of what would happen if the Chantry didn't control the Circles because Tevinter is a completely different country from other Andrastian nations with their own culture and history.

Mages "go bad" in the Andrastean nations for the same reason they go bad in Tevinter - they want power. Certainly, hating on the Chantry is a strong factor as well, but taking it away would only strengthen the alternative as people would focus on gathering wealth and influence (like just about everyone else) rather than taking revenge.

And why would you need templars when they wouldn't be allowed to do their job? If you go for free mages, it would seem logical to task them with policing their own ranks as well. "Mundanes" trying to keep magical abuse in check without actual enforcement would only get blocked at every corner. Might as well save the lyrium and forego producing addicts.

Modifié par Lynata, 10 avril 2012 - 07:16 .

[Knight Commander]

I would have maybe supported the mages if Orisno and Anders (there are other mages to) didn't betray my trust. If even a First Enchanter uses blood magic than that means every mage would most likely use blood magic. Anyways having Anders blew up the chantry and killing innocents and the Grand Cleric which is pretty much equal to a bishop or even a pope in the real world means every templar, even the ones that aren't in the free marches will want him dead and same with everyone who believes in the chantry. Lastly i want to point out that what i just said means the mages are going to be out numbered 3 to 1 and will (maybe) resort to foreign allies (tevinter) and use blood magic. One more thing my Warden was a templar and same with Hawke so in my game they stand no chance.

Modifié par Knight Commander, 10 avril 2012 - 09:32 .

[Sabriana]

How can I support the templars? Simple. I rolled a dice.

By the time I was so frustrated, it didn't really matter anymore. Mages? HerpDerp I'm a blood mage/abomination/whatever. Templars? HerpDerp, I'm an opressor/rapist/a-hole.

The templars came up sixes. So that's what I went with. I must admit that I reloaded to see the mage ending. Imagine my utter surprise when Orsino still went "HerpDerp, I'm a harvester, even though you are my ally and we just won a major fight".

At least Meredith had the Maguffin excuse.

[Huntress]

Knight Commander wrote...

I would have maybe supported the mages if Orisno and Anders (there are other mages to) didn't betray my trust. If even a First Enchanter uses blood magic than that means every mage would most likely use blood magic. Anyways having Anders blew up the chantry and killing innocents and the Grand Cleric which is pretty much equal to a bishop or even a pope in the real world means every templar, even the ones that aren't in the free marches will want him dead and same with everyone who believes in the chantry. Lastly i want to point out that what i just said means the mages are going to be out numbered 3 to 1 and will (maybe) resort to foreign allies (tevinter) and use blood magic. One more thing my Warden was a templar and same with Hawke so in my game they stand no chance.

Why you pity the Grand Cleric ? She did nothing to stop Meredith or the templars abuses.. is funny you know, how innocent people are always in the side that you feel comfortable with.
To me The mages in the circle of Magi has NOTHING to do with Orsino or Anders actions and because they are innocent myhawke can't kill them, thats my moral and yet you guys puke about how much wrong mages can do, now tell me about how much wrong someone without magic can do, or the "Power corrupt"  only fit mages?

If for exemple thedas didn't have any mage or magic at all, do you still think their people would have been happier? healthier? Richer? that there would be no slaves at all? Are you convinced that No goverment or religion will kill "others" because of their believes? Do you?

Here is what Marcus Tullius Cicero said:
"Good men are incited to fraud by no king of gain, evil men are often so incited by very small gain."
"Boni nullo emolumento impelluntur in fraudem, improbi saepe parvo."

"Undoubtedly ignorance of future ills is a more useful thing than knowledge."
"Certe ignoratio futurorum malorum utilior est waum scientia."

Modifié par Huntress, 10 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[prizm123]

judging by the number of times i seem to get jumped by blood mages while strolling through Hightown, having that stupid pos Grace kidnap my sibling, being attacked before i can even say hi to a lot of other mages, even when i go to try to help them, having Orsino keep and study Quentin's research...... yeah it is very hard for me to see why this particular circle deserves to be saved

[Porenferser]

Why you pity the Grand Cleric ? She did nothing to stop Meredith or the
templars abuses.. is funny you know, how innocent people are always in
the side that you feel comfortable with.

She explained pretty good why she didn't pick a side.
Also, if she wouldn't have cared at all, she would have left the city.
She didn't, I apreciate that, it's more then most of the people would have done.

To me The mages in the circle of Magi has NOTHING to do with Orsino or Anders actions and because they are innocent
myhawke can't kill them, thats my moral and yet you guys puke about how
much wrong mages can do, now tell me about how much wrong someone
without magic can do, or the "Power corrupt"  only fit mages?

Judging by the numbers of blood mages, demons and abominations who you have to fight in the end (even on the mages side!), the circle is not as innocent as you claim it is.

Modifié par Porenferser, 11 avril 2012 - 09:25 .

[TEWR]

Judging by the numbers of blood mages, demons and abominations who you have to fight in the end (even on the mages side!), the circle is not as innocent as you claim it is.

Yeah.... a lot of the mages fought in DAII are apostates and shouldn't be held accountable for the Circle Mages.

The Mages fought in the endgame also don't use blood magic, save for Orsino. The ones in the room with the demon? Thralls and nothing more.

And considering the Veil is extremely thin to the point of emaciation, demons crossing over should also not be something to blame the Mages for.

[Shared]

Pretty east actually ;D i get to be the king of the city if i support the templars. Also the mages (or orsino is inderectly/directly responsible for you mothers death, while the templars do not do anything specifically to you personally.

Which also reminds me. They really should have made something more special around you (if your mage) or bethany (if your not). Huge oppertunity missed in DA 2.

[TEWR]

while the templars do not do anything specifically to you personally.

If they had done their job properly, Quentin may have been apprehended before he killed your mother.

The Templars are more at fault, because it's their duty to search for apostates within the city.

[Porenferser]

The only bad templars I can think of in DA2 are (in that order)  Alrik, Varnell, Mettin, Meredith and Karras.
5 in total.
There are way more bad mages in Kirkwall.

(And please don't argue with nameless dudes. If I'd count them, the mages would outnumber the templars even more)

[Shared]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

while the templars do not do anything specifically to you personally.

If they had done their job properly, Quentin may have been apprehended before he killed your mother.

The Templars are more at fault, because it's their duty to search for apostates within the city.

Can't agree with you there, because an apostate mage is not nessicarily bad. However Orsino KNEW that Quentin was a blood mage, and what his experiments where, yet did nothing. The templars did not know about this,.

[TEWR]

Can't agree with you there, because an apostate mage is not nessicarily bad.

Of course. Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-mage. I'm merely stating what the duty of the Templars actually is, per what the Chantry and Templars state on the matter.

To protect the Circle, watch for Abominations, and track down apostates. Unfortunately, the nature of the apostate is largely irrelevant. If they're good, it usually doesn't matter because they're punished anyway in some form.

If they're bad like Quentin though, they obviously needed to die. So I won't hold any qualms over a death like that.

Quentin was bad, and the Templars' duty -- even if I disagree with it when applied to mages like Merrill, Anders pre-endgame, or Morrigan -- is to hunt down apostates.

Their duty is to hunt down the people like Quentin. It is NOT the Mages' duty to do so, despite how that can be a beneficial thing -- as the Mages' Collective demonstrates. But as I addressed below, offering to help is not a viable option for the Mages.

However Orsino KNEW that Quentin was a blood mage, and what his experiments where, yet did nothing. The templars did not know about this,.

Because the Templars would've used that as evidence of the Circle's corruption and a basis for the RoA even if Orsino said he knew the whereabouts of Quentin.

In a system like Kirkwall's, the mages can't offer to help the Templars because the Templars will view them with suspicion and think they have some ulterior motive, possibly going so far as to abuse them further.

And for the record, Orsino detested Quentin's Harvester research and was horrified that his former colleague was murdering people for a necromantic ritual.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 avril 2012 - 10:47 .

[TEWR]

Porenferser wrote...

The only bad templars I can think of in DA2 are (in that order)  Alrik, Varnell, Mettin, Meredith and Karras.
5 in total.
There are way more bad mages in Kirkwall.

Um, no. There's the Templar that tries to kill you for killing Karras in self-defense and there's the Templar that tortured and killed an Elven child to gain information on Feynriel, and she said she didn't care at all about the lives of the Elves on Sundermount.

(And please don't argue with nameless dudes. If I'd count them, the mages would outnumber the templars even more)

LOL no.

If you actually deign to count them, the Templars far outnumber the Mages you fight. And considering that most of the mages fought are apostates and not members of the Circle, the Circle should not be blamed for their actions.

Considering the Templars far outnumber the Mages of the Gallows, every single one that killed the Mages and supported the Annulment for an act the mages had nothing to do with is by default evil to some degree.

Only exceptions? Maybe Cullen and maybe Carver.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 avril 2012 - 10:56 .

[Edrick1976]

I think they both have good points and both sides have good reason to be pissed off however when anders went and did what he did Hell even my pro mage Hawk had a hard time sideing with the mages.. Not to mention when the first enchanter went all blood mage on everyone it kinda proved the templars point that when push came to shove they will allways turn to blood magic.

[Shared]

Edington wrote...

I think they both have good points and both sides have good reason to be pissed off however when anders went and did what he did Hell even my pro mage Hawk had a hard time sideing with the mages.. Not to mention when the first enchanter went all blood mage on everyone it kinda proved the templars point that when push came to shove they will allways turn to blood magic.

Except hawke, or no wait. My hawke was a blood mage :/

[prizm123]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Can't agree with you there, because an apostate mage is not nessicarily bad.

Of course. Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-mage. I'm merely stating what the duty of the Templars actually is, per what the Chantry and Templars state on the matter.

To protect the Circle, watch for Abominations, and track down apostates. Unfortunately, the nature of the apostate is largely irrelevant. If they're good, it usually doesn't matter because they're punished anyway in some form.

If they're bad like Quentin though, they obviously needed to die. So I won't hold any qualms over a death like that.

Quentin was bad, and the Templars' duty -- even if I disagree with it when applied to mages like Merrill, Anders pre-endgame, or Morrigan -- is to hunt down apostates.

Their duty is to hunt down the people like Quentin. It is NOT the Mages' duty to do so, despite how that can be a beneficial thing -- as the Mages' Collective demonstrates. But as I addressed below, offering to help is not a viable option for the Mages.

However Orsino KNEW that Quentin was a blood mage, and what his experiments where, yet did nothing. The templars did not know about this,.

Because the Templars would've used that as evidence of the Circle's corruption and a basis for the RoA even if Orsino said he knew the whereabouts of Quentin.

In a system like Kirkwall's, the mages can't offer to help the Templars because the Templars will view them with suspicion and think they have some ulterior motive, possibly going so far as to abuse them further.

And for the record, Orsino detested Quentin's Harvester research and was horrified that his former colleague was murdering people for a necromantic ritual.

if Orsino detested the research, then he should have destroyed it... just sayin....

besides, there was a helpful Templar who was on Quentin's tail, unfortunately, poor decent Emeric was ambushed  and murdered

and most of the mages were either from the circle or escaped from the circle, even all the damn blood mages... and Grace's little crew...

Modifié par prizm123, 11 avril 2012 - 01:01 .

[TEWR]

if Orsino detested the research, then he should have destroyed it... just sayin....

Who's to say he didn't? That he remembered how to do it doesn't mean that he didn't destroy it, considering he says he put it aside because it was too evil and clearly doesn't have a few pages in front of him when he goes insane -- something I'll never see as canon.

besides, there was a helpful Templar who was on Quentin's tail, unfortunately, poor decent Emeric was ambushed and murdered

Who was kept from fully doing his job by his superiors.

and most of the mages were either from the circle or escaped from the circle, even all the damn blood mages... and Grace's little crew...

First off, Grace's actions during BSC make no sense for a pro-mage Hawke. Here's why:

And I simply find BSC's plot -- for a pro-mage person anyway -- to be completely idiotic. You can denounce Meredith and support Orsino -- which Thrask himself will state if you talk to him! -- and yet the group says things like this:

"We know you're spying for Orsino!"

and the kicker...

"I don't know why you support Meredith" said by Thrask.

I'm spying for the man arguing for Meredith to step down and for greater rights for the mages and Thrask knew I denounced her publicly and supported Orsino -- something that he states -- yet the whole quest just reeks of plot stupidity.

Secondly, Decimus' actions -- which I also find to be based off of plot stupidity rather then any semblance of sense -- were those of a man not only from another Circle, but that had branded himself as an apostate.

Third, no. Those Mages you fight in the streets as part of the gangs? They're all apostates. None of them have any connections to the Circle or the Mage Underground.

[prizm123]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

if Orsino detested the research, then he should have destroyed it... just sayin....

Who's to say he didn't? That he remembered how to do it doesn't mean that he didn't destroy it, considering he says he put it aside because it was too evil and clearly doesn't have a few pages in front of him when he goes insane -- something I'll never see as canon.

you answered your own question, he said he put it aside, he doesnt say it was destroyed, and since it happened in the game itself, then it is canon, whether you see it that way or not. end of story.

[Vincent Laww]

In the Dragon Age Series you're posed with many radical choices. Whether or not your support the Templars is based on your perception of the organisation itself. They're Andrastian related, and believe 'Magic is not mean't to control man, but rather serve him'. I'm guessing those are correct words. I think the Templar do what they believe is best, they think Mages have the potential to become an evil incarnation, and it is there job to ensure they don't succumb to temptation. Mages live an oppressed life under their regime. I can sympathise with the Mages, but I also under the convictions that driver the Templars to act the way they do. They at times can be misguided, but they have noble agendas, but one templar, or two can't represent the totality of the organisation.