1194 réponses à ce sujet

[Porenferser]

prizm123 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

if Orsino detested the research, then he should have destroyed it... just sayin....

Who's to say he didn't? That he remembered how to do it doesn't mean that he didn't destroy it, considering he says he put it aside because it was too evil and clearly doesn't have a few pages in front of him when he goes insane -- something I'll never see as canon.

you answered your own question, he said he put it aside, he doesnt say it was destroyed, and since it happened in the game itself, then it is canon, whether you see it that way or not. end of story.

Dito.
Always this *I think it makes no sense, so it is not canon and your argument is invalid*-bull****.
You can say that you didn't like certain parts of the DA2-story (hell, I for example hate bioware for this **** they did with Anders), but to say it isn't canon just because you dislike it is useless for a discussion.

Modifié par Porenferser, 11 avril 2012 - 01:58 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see why examples of societies where mages are free shouldn't be addressed when you are claiming that free mages will lead to Tevinter, when that clearly isn't the case with several societies that have mages who aren't controlled.[/quote]

Because the Andrastean societies are much closer to Tevinter than to some tribal society where people quite simply are not subjected to the same vices that ultimately lead to both susceptibility to demonic possession as well as an abuse of arcane talents. In Tevinter, Ferelden, Orlais, people grow up being surrounded by greed and jealousy, exploitation and power plays. They grow up wishing to become so rich that they could live in a palace too, or that they could visit the brothel every single day, or that they'd like to have a dozen servants so they never have to work again. The same isn't true for the Dalish, and neither is it for the Avvar. Not to mention that the latter's shamans aren't even schooled in a way that would make them as powerful/dangerous as a trained Circle mage.

If you don't understand this, we can only agree to disagree. We've been over this enough times. [/quote]

The Avvar tribes and the Chasind Wilders might be tribal, but the Kingdom of Rivain doesn't appear to be. The Dalish are effectively nomadic because their second homeland was sacked by the Chantry led forces in the Exalted March of the Dales, but prior to that they had two kingdoms, the first of which possessed advanced technology (as we see in Witch Hunt and Dragon Age II). I don't see how you can seriously claim that free mages will lead to another Tevinter when we see that this hasn't been the case thus far.

Also, Aldenon the Great was believed to be a tribal, and he was depicted as being more powerful than a Tevinter Magister: The codex on Aldenon reads, "To all appearances, he was a hedge wizard hailing from the Frostbacks, perhaps Alamarri - but from the wild lands if so." It continued, "I sat with the mage in many councils and although his magecraft was greater than even the Tevinter magisters, many believed his advice to be folly. He had little appreciation for the hard truths of our lands, they said. Compassion, mercy, justice—they matter not when Teyrn Simeon invades your land, subverts your nobles, and takes what's yours. He grew bitter and impatient with us and ours, and these sentiments were often returned. But others could see he had a vision of something better than the endless petty wars of teyrns and arls."

And what did Aldenon the Great - a free mage - try to achieve when he was working with Teyrn Calenhad to form Ferelden, and even long before he ever met Calenhad? He wanted a kingdom where all would be treated equally, mage and non-mage alike:

"Aldenon conceived a plan to enlist strong allies and Calenhad went into the Brecilian Forest to make it so. But unbeknownst to the mage, Calenhad had made contact with the Chantry. When Calenhad returned at the head of the Ash Warriors as Aldenon expected, so as well did templars and Circle mages join our host. Aldenon was in a fury such as I've never seen. He wanted a kingdom of free men, of moral people beholden to law. Where a common man could tend his land safely and in peace. He lifted his staff and his voice echoed through the hills: 'A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break - if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!'

"Then Aldenon left."

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Temptation and corruption can happen in any society, [...][/quote]

Which is why there are still abominations happening. Temptation and corruption would seem to happen in different degrees, however. The tribal societies don't seem to have as much of a problem with their mages because most of them die pretty young (makes you wonder why, doesn't it?) and because they don't regard their ability as an artform. These shamans and hedge wizards never fully develop their potential; their use of magic is in general rather clumsy and thus does not offer them the same power. Lastly, the communal spirit of their tribes prevents most of the temptation that exists in the modern nations.
The Dalish are an exception to the "clumsy" bit, but they are also an exception in that they are even more communal than the humans. For all intents and purposes, theirs is an alien society. [/quote]

Where does it read that the shamans and hedge wizards never develop to their full potential? We already see the example of Aldenon the Great as a powerful mage, and he certainly wasn't from Andrastian society.

And your insistence that tribal societies are "alien" gives me the impression that you don't really understand how incorrect and dehumanizing that kind of language is. People in tribal societies aren't aliens, they are human, and they can face the same flaws and temptations that anyone else can. And since we see Chasind Wilders in Lothering, I don't really understand why you act as though they live on some other planet.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

They are different, not alien. You travel around the world, and you see that there are always differences. You can see the poverty and despair in Mexico, you can see the cobblestone roads in Rome and how tourism has positively impacted their businesses, you can see that while cultures can be different, they are all human.[/quote]

Your argument is flawed as you are comparing fully modernized societies with each other. There is no drastic culture clash between Mexicans and Italians.
A more accurate comparison would be when you look to something like these Peruvian tribes. [/quote]

My point was that all societies differ from each other in certain ways, but your argument doesn't stand: Ferelden isn't a modern society. Orlais isn't a modern society. The Qunari are seen as technologically advanced because the Kossith have cannons.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I see that magic and mages can be beneficial to the people. [/quote]

I do not think anyone ever doubted this. The problem is that for all its beneficial potential, there is the potential for abuse. Call me pessimistic, but I am of the opinion that "modernized" civilization does result in more people exploiting each other than people helping each other. Greed, jealousy and pride are powerful urges, and for people who are born with an ability enabling them to get what they want, there will be a big temptation to overcome.

I'm fairly certain the Tevinter Magisters were not always evil, either. At some point, it just became an arms race - with stuff like blood magic, mind control and slave sacrifices providing the most powerful arms to achieve a position of influence. The same path Tevinter is treading once again. The temptation is too big. [/quote]

If your claim that free mages will always lead to another Tevinter was accurate, shouldn't the Grey Warden mages be trying to emulate the Imperium? Shouldn't the Warden-Commander from the Circle of Ferelden have tried to create a magocracy? Why did Malcolm Hawke try to instill a sense of decency in an apostate Hawke and Bethany if the temptation is too great? I don't see the point in enslaving mages to the Chantry controlled Circles simply because some might abuse their powers, as we see people abusing their authority within the Chantry, within the templars, and among the nobility. Oppressing an entire race of people isn't going to solve any problems, it's only going to create new problems.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That's because I never claim that all templars are evil, I address the problems with the Chantry controlled Circles that leave mages powerless when templars have "divine right" over their lives.[/quote]

Abuse is not covered by this right. In fact, it goes against both Chantry doctrine as well as the templars' self-stated purpose. It is, in essence, an act of treason - no different than a cop beating a handcuffed innocent suspect. Yet nobody campaigns for abolishing the police (I hope)? [/quote]

I said powerless, not abuse, even though some would argue that the Chantry controlled Circles are already a form of abuse against countless people with magical ability. Mages are powerless - we see that Jowan was going to undergo the Rite of Tranquility, and that First Enchanter Irving never even knew what evidence was against Jowan when he signed the Rite. We know that Aneirin was nearly killed as a boy because the templars claimed that he was a maleficar, but what does he become when he grows up among the Dalish? Aneirin the Healer. Even though the First Enchanter is technically supposed to determine whether mages fight in a war, we see Greagoir overrule him, and only permit seven mages to go to Ostagar to combat the darkspawn.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Wynne argues against a potential genocide in Amarantine, so Wynne understands what the Chantry will do if the mages break free from Chantry control. It's the argument she makes to The Warden, who can be from the Circle of Ferelden, a place he can call a "prison" and an "oppressive place" with no rebuttal from Wynne. In fact, the Hero of Ferelden can advocate the emancipation of the Circle of Ferelden, with the new ruler fully supporting the measure. First Enchanter Irving also supports it, because it frees the mages from "their shackles," as he put it.[/quote]

I know of this, but I am unsure what you are trying to express by it?

Wynne is a realist. She can dislike the measures she herself has been subjected to and still regard them as necessary - just like she knows the Chantry harbors the same sentiment, and will act accordingly if it feels threatened. [/quote]

If Wynne dislikes the measures, why does she try to persuade The Warden to return to the Circle to use his influence and try to change it?

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No, "at the mercy" of the people who have "divine right" over their very lives, as Cullen pointed out in Act III.[/quote]

And how is this different from noble lords? The King of Ferelden was crowned by the Chantry.
Not to mention that I'm fairly sure that few people see a difference between "divine right" and "secular right" when both are enforced at swordpoint. [/quote]

Because the most popular religion of the land isn't dehumanizing the common people for being common, while the Chantry does precisely that to mages.

Also, the disenfranchised elves are at a disadvantage because of racism against their people, and that's a reason why Anders says the elves should be fighting with the mages to gain rights that they currently don't have. Anders argues for people being treated equally, which is why he agrees with Aveline that he'll face judgement for killing Grand Cleric Elthina - because he wants to live in a land where everyone is treated equally. He says this to Aveline right after Hawke defeats the templars (after Meredith invokes the Right of Annulment).

[Lynata]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Avvar tribes and the Chasind Wilders might be tribal, but the Kingdom of Rivain doesn't appear to be.[/quote]Yes, I too would like to know more about Rivain. The information we have is disturbingly sparse.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see how you can seriously claim that free mages will lead to another Tevinter when we see that this hasn't been the case thus far.[/quote]I don't see how you can seriously claim that Orlais or Ferelden are closer to the ancient elven kingdom of Elvhenan than to Tevinter.

http://dragonage.wik...lvhenan#Culture

I'm sorry, I just don't see the same capacity for the greed, the envy and the hate cultivated in human nations. The very factors that lead to mages pursueing forbidden magic in their search for greater power, or falling prey to demonic temptation promising to fulfill their deepest wishes.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Where does it read that the shamans and hedge wizards never develop to their full potential? We already see the example of Aldenon the Great as a powerful mage, and he certainly wasn't from Andrastian society.[/quote]Not "never", usually. And it makes sense, given that they do not pursue magic with the same resources and science as the Circle mages or the Tevinter magisters do, no?

I've already quoted the relevant part of Magister Allineas' studies on page 11 on this thread:

"Magical talent is like a flowing river. Properly channeled, it finds its way to the ocean - mages such as yourself, possessing the ability to cast spells. Left to its own devices, however, it might flow in a different and unexpected direction. But that talent will express itself somehow. [...] Prior to the Circle, magical talent expressed itself in many ways, often guided by ancient tradition. Some of these 'hedge mages', as you call them, possessed powers no Circle spell could replicate. Their unpredictability was considered a threat. [...] These wild talents were more than unpredictable; they were chaotic. Allineas mentions these people communing with spirits, being lured into darker paths . . . many of them went insane. Few lived long lives."

We don't even have to look to your ancient mage legend (whose accounts are probably as close to the truth as those about Andraste) to consider that there can indeed be very powerful wizards or witches without professional education. Flemeth and Morrigan alone are perfect examples of how much power they can amass. Yet I would say that these are exceptions from the rule.

In fact, there are many 'hedge mages' who do not even regard themselves as possessing magical ability. Never being discovered and properly taught, they (and the people they are living with) fail to understand their talent, which then remains limited to brewing strange potions or healing salves or poisons or whatever.
Just like the Chasind or Avvar shamans are quite simply not as "multi-talented" as a Circle mage or Tevinter magister. Maybe one of them is an excellent healer. Maybe one of them has mastered the art of calling down thunder from the heavens. Maybe one of them can conjure fire. But lack of scientific training means that they will always have ... well, "less options", instead having specialized in whatever the preceding shaman has taught them.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
And your insistence that tribal societies are "alien" gives me the impression that you don't really understand how incorrect and dehumanizing that kind of language is. People in tribal societies aren't aliens, they are human, and they can face the same flaws and temptations that anyone else can.[/quote]Your reply gives me the impression that you don't really understand the meaning and nature of this term.

http://en.wiktionary...i/alien#English

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
My point was that all societies differ from each other in certain ways, but your argument doesn't stand: Ferelden isn't a modern society. Orlais isn't a modern society.[/quote]Are you kidding? Fledgling urbanization, currency-based economy, roads, organized trade/religion/education/science, ... compared to the Chasind and the Avvar, these societies are quite modern. Yet with modernization comes not just the benefits, but also disadvantages - here in the form of increased "social corruption", if one were to use that term. Tribal communities, on the other hand, will always be more tightly connected, their members usually feeling a greater responsibility to society as a whole instead of just to their own wellbeing.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
If your claim that free mages will always lead to another Tevinter was accurate, shouldn't the Grey Warden mages be trying to emulate the Imperium?[/quote]If they'd not have the Blight as a cause to dedicate their existence to and the non-mages keeping their mage-members in check, this might be the case.

Do you know the story of Warden-Commander Sophia Arlessa Dryden, perchance?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see the point in enslaving mages to the Chantry controlled Circles simply because some might abuse their powers, as we see people abusing their authority within the Chantry, within the templars, and among the nobility.[/quote]Because it's generally a little more difficult to deal with undetectable mind-domination, exploding fireballs and summoned demons than guys with swords and armour. Not that I think you'd actually agree with this assessment at this point. You've made your negligience of safety quite clear.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Oppressing an entire race of people isn't going to solve any problems, it's only going to create new problems.[/quote]The mages of the Andrastean nations aren't a "race", they are a couple hundred members of society who were unfortunately born with a condition rendering them a much bigger threat than the average citizen.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
If Wynne dislikes the measures, why does she try to persuade The Warden to return to the Circle to use his influence and try to change it?[/quote]Can you clarify? This choice of words seems somewhat self-contradictory.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Because the most popular religion of the land isn't dehumanizing the common people for being common, while the Chantry does precisely that to mages.[/quote]First off, I don't see how the Chantry as a whole is "dehumanizing" mages. There are certainly individual members who would like to treat mages - and elves - as lesser beings, just like there are other individual members who treat mages as equals to be pitied due to suffering from a condition rendering them a threat to no fault of their own. The current Divine belongs to the latter, and her opinion is reflected in the Chant of Light, which still sets the organization's official religious doctrine.

Secondly, you are now touching upon an entirely different issue. The Chantry making mages "feel bad" has nothing to do with where the enforcement of its templars is rooted.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders argues for people being treated equally, which is why he agrees with Aveline that he'll face judgement for killing Grand Cleric Elthina - because he wants to live in a land where everyone is treated equally. He says this to Aveline right after Hawke defeats the templars (after Meredith invokes the Right of Annulment).[/quote]Unfortunately, reality doesn't work that way. Which Anders displays himself with his reaction when you're selling Fenris. But hey, preaching something has always been different from actually doing it - given your opinion of the Chantry, Anders is at least equal in this, wouldn't you agree?

Modifié par Lynata, 11 avril 2012 - 06:40 .

[Knight Commander]

Porenferser wrote...

Why you pity the Grand Cleric ? She did nothing to stop Meredith or the
templars abuses.. is funny you know, how innocent people are always in
the side that you feel comfortable with.

She explained pretty good why she didn't pick a side.
Also, if she wouldn't have cared at all, she would have left the city.
She didn't, I apreciate that, it's more then most of the people would have done.

To me The mages in the circle of Magi has NOTHING to do with Orsino or Anders actions and because they are innocent
myhawke can't kill them, thats my moral and yet you guys puke about how
much wrong mages can do, now tell me about how much wrong someone
without magic can do, or the "Power corrupt"  only fit mages?

Judging by the numbers of blood mages, demons and abominations who you have to fight in the end (even on the mages side!), the circle is not as innocent as you claim it is.

Thank you now I don't have to reply to him/her.

[Porenferser]

No problem.
I really never understood the hate for Elthina.
People accuse her of doing nothing, but for real:
What COULD she have done?
If she had picked a side there would have been war anyway, just a little earlier.
In fact she was the only little buffer left between mages and templars.
She risked her life by staying, if she wouldn't have cared at all, she would have left the city.
Before her death, it might have ended more or less peacefully, but thanks to that ****face Anders......

Just compare this to a real life situation:
Do you hate the pope for not stopping the eternal war of religions?
He is just one man after all, he can't fullfill miracles.
So is the Grand Cleric.

Modifié par Porenferser, 11 avril 2012 - 07:10 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see how you can seriously claim that free mages will lead to another Tevinter when we see that this hasn't been the case thus far.[/quote]

I don't see how you can seriously claim that Orlais or Ferelden are closer to the ancient elven kingdom of Elvhenan than to Tevinter.

http://dragonage.wik...lvhenan#Culture

I'm sorry, I just don't see the same capacity for the greed, the envy and the hate cultivated in human nations. The very factors that lead to mages pursueing forbidden magic in their search for greater power, or falling prey to demonic temptation promising to fulfill their deepest wishes. [/quote]

I don't see why you are dismissing the fact that mages can be free and hold positions of authority without emulating the Tevinter Imperium. When I cite examples of alternative societies, you make it out to be as though these cultures are so utterly inhuman that it would be impossible to compare, but that's simply not the case.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Where does it read that the shamans and hedge wizards never develop to their full potential? We already see the example of Aldenon the Great as a powerful mage, and he certainly wasn't from Andrastian society.[/quote]

Not "never", usually. And it makes sense, given that they do not pursue magic with the same resources and science as the Circle mages or the Tevinter magisters do, no?

I've already quoted the relevant part of Magister Allineas' studies on page 11 on this thread:

"Magical talent is like a flowing river. Properly channeled, it finds its way to the ocean - mages such as yourself, possessing the ability to cast spells. Left to its own devices, however, it might flow in a different and unexpected direction. But that talent will express itself somehow. [...] Prior to the Circle, magical talent expressed itself in many ways, often guided by ancient tradition. Some of these 'hedge mages', as you call them, possessed powers no Circle spell could replicate. Their unpredictability was considered a threat. [...] These wild talents were more than unpredictable; they were chaotic. Allineas mentions these people communing with spirits, being lured into darker paths . . . many of them went insane. Few lived long lives."

We don't even have to look to your ancient mage legend (whose accounts are probably as close to the truth as those about Andraste) to consider that there can indeed be very powerful wizards or witches without professional education. Flemeth and Morrigan alone are perfect examples of how much power they can amass. Yet I would say that these are exceptions from the rule.

In fact, there are many 'hedge mages' who do not even regard themselves as possessing magical ability. Never being discovered and properly taught, they (and the people they are living with) fail to understand their talent, which then remains limited to brewing strange potions or healing salves or poisons or whatever.
Just like the Chasind or Avvar shamans are quite simply not as "multi-talented" as a Circle mage or Tevinter magister. Maybe one of them is an excellent healer. Maybe one of them has mastered the art of calling down thunder from the heavens. Maybe one of them can conjure fire. But lack of scientific training means that they will always have ... well, "less options", instead having specialized in whatever the preceding shaman has taught them. [/quote]

You're addressing multiple cultures on the opinion of one single Magister? I guess if one man has an opinion, it must be true.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And your insistence that tribal societies are "alien" gives me the impression that you don't really understand how incorrect and dehumanizing that kind of language is. People in tribal societies aren't aliens, they are human, and they can face the same flaws and temptations that anyone else can.[/quote]

Your reply gives me the impression that you don't really understand the meaning and nature of this term.

http://en.wiktionary...i/alien#English [/quote]

Nothing you have stated dismisses the fact that tribal societies can face temptation as well, and that tribal people are flawed like everyone else. In the fictional world of Thedas, demons can temptations to mages, and I don't see why you continue to dismiss that. The stark difference remains that Andrastian culture villifies mages for the actions of the Magisters, while the several other cultures I have cited do not.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

My point was that all societies differ from each other in certain ways, but your argument doesn't stand: Ferelden isn't a modern society. Orlais isn't a modern society.[/quote]

Are you kidding? Fledgling urbanization, currency-based economy, roads, organized trade/religion/education/science, ... compared to the Chasind and the Avvar, these societies are quite modern. Yet with modernization comes not just the benefits, but also disadvantages - here in the form of increased "social corruption", if one were to use that term. Tribal communities, on the other hand, will always be more tightly connected, their members usually feeling a greater responsibility to society as a whole instead of just to their own wellbeing. [/quote]

They are closer to medieval, not modern.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If your claim that free mages will always lead to another Tevinter was accurate, shouldn't the Grey Warden mages be trying to emulate the Imperium?[/quote]

If they'd not have the Blight as a cause to dedicate their existence to and the non-mages keeping their mage-members in check, this might be the case.

Do you know the story of Warden-Commander Sophia Arlessa Dryden, perchance? [/quote]

So you're saying that the mage Wardens care more about saving the world than taking it over?

Sophia Dryden? You mean the Grey Warden who tried to overthrow a tyrant? Yeah, she reminds me of that other Grey Warden who got involved with politics during the Fifth Blight.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see the point in enslaving mages to the Chantry controlled Circles simply because some might abuse their powers, as we see people abusing their authority within the Chantry, within the templars, and among the nobility.[/quote]

Because it's generally a little more difficult to deal with undetectable mind-domination, exploding fireballs and summoned demons than guys with swords and armour. Not that I think you'd actually agree with this assessment at this point. You've made your negligience of safety quite clear. [/quote]

I am an opponent of slavery, what can I say?

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Oppressing an entire race of people isn't going to solve any problems, it's only going to create new problems.[/quote]

The mages of the Andrastean nations aren't a "race", they are a couple hundred members of society who were unfortunately born with a condition rendering them a much bigger threat than the average citizen. [/quote]

Some mages refer to mages as a whole as "my people," from The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden to Circle mage Bethany.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If Wynne dislikes the measures, why does she try to persuade The Warden to return to the Circle to use his influence and try to change it?[/quote]

Can you clarify? This choice of words seems somewhat self-contradictory. [/quote]

Aneirin recommends The Warden to return to the Circle to help bring change to it (if the protagonist is a mage), and the next time Wynne speaks with The Warden, she recommends that he returns to the Circle. This is where the protagonist can point out that it's an oppressive place, and she argues that he can change that, given time. She says it's her dream, but that she doesn't think she will live long enough to make that dream a reality.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Because the most popular religion of the land isn't dehumanizing the common people for being common, while the Chantry does precisely that to mages.[/quote]

First off, I don't see how the Chantry as a whole is "dehumanizing" mages. There are certainly individual members who would like to treat mages - and elves - as lesser beings, just like there are other individual members who treat mages as equals to be pitied due to suffering from a condition rendering them a threat to no fault of their own. The current Divine belongs to the latter, and her opinion is reflected in the Chant of Light, which still sets the organization's official religious doctrine.

Secondly, you are now touching upon an entirely different issue. The Chantry making mages "feel bad" has nothing to do with where the enforcement of its templars is rooted. [/quote]

Casting them as "cursed" to the point where mages are killed simply for being mages (as Wynne addresses), where Mother Hannah of Redcliffe needs to assure the Amell Warden that a mob won't kill him, where Keili thinks all mages need to die at the hands of templars, is hardly an issue of simply making mages "feel bad."

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders argues for people being treated equally, which is why he agrees with Aveline that he'll face judgement for killing Grand Cleric Elthina - because he wants to live in a land where everyone is treated equally. He says this to Aveline right after Hawke defeats the templars (after Meredith invokes the Right of Annulment).[/quote]

Unfortunately, reality doesn't work that way. Which Anders displays himself with his reaction when you're selling Fenris. But hey, preaching something has always been different from actually doing it - given your opinion of the Chantry, Anders is at least equal in this, wouldn't you agree? [/quote]

I didn't realize Anders hating Fenris, specifically, dismissed his argument about how elves (as a whole) should be fighting for their rights at the side of mages. Simply because Anders hates Fenris, doesn't mean he hates elves as a whole.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Lynata wrote...

It comes down to whether you'd rather oppress a minority or allow entire communities to be threatened. Demonic possession and mages abusing their power are just as much a fact as the incidents involving templars committing crimes against those under their care - just that the latter is generally seen as less dangerous to Thedas .

Individual mages that are misusing their power should be hunted down, not all of them. This reminds me of the X-Men movies. There are 3 factions:

1.  The anti-mutant humans that want to see all mutants made into 2nd class citizens.
2.  Magneto's mutants, that want dominion over non-mutants.
3.  Xavier's school, that consists of mutants that fight for mutant rights without harming innocents, and believe that mutants should use their powers properly.

In Dragon Age, it's:
1.  The Chantry and the Templars.
2.  Blood mages and mage radicals.
3.  Those that support mage's equal rights but insist that their abilities be used properly.

The first two are both different shades of evil. Option 3 is the good one, and it's the most logical and rational.

[Lynata]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see why you are dismissing the fact that mages can be free and hold positions of authority without emulating the Tevinter Imperium. When I cite examples of alternative societies, you make it out to be as though these cultures are so utterly inhuman that it would be impossible to compare, but that's simply not the case.[/quote]Not "inhuman", simply too different to apply as viable examples. These societies teach different values, explaining how there might be a lower susceptibility to temptation, which in turn - in combination with their (on average) lesser powers - explains why they might not be as feared or shunned.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You're addressing multiple cultures on the opinion of one single Magister? I guess if one man has an opinion, it must be true.[/quote]Well, it's better than your personal opinion as a player with an obvious agenda but no actual knowledge of said cultures aside from "they don't seem to fear their mages".

In short: it's not much, but it is something, it doesn't contradict with anything else - and it sounds as if it makes sense.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Nothing you have stated dismisses the fact that tribal societies can face temptation as well, and that tribal people are flawed like everyone else. In the fictional world of Thedas, demons can temptations to mages, and I don't see why you continue to dismiss that.[/quote]I have explained multiple times now that whilst any society can face temptation it will differ in both nature and strength depending on where you grew up and what you've been taught.

Why do we even continue this back-and-forth?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
They are closer to medieval, not modern.[/quote]More modern than the Avvar or the Chasind.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
So you're saying that the mage Wardens care more about saving the world than taking it over?[/quote]Obviously. If they wouldn't, the other Grey Wardens would simply kill them.

Actually, shouldn't you regard this as oppression as well?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Sophia Dryden? You mean the Grey Warden who tried to overthrow a tyrant? Yeah, she reminds me of that other Grey Warden who got involved with politics during the Fifth Blight.[/quote]Weren't these two one and the same?

Anyways - it's a good example of a Warden blood mage summoning a demon to fight for personal gain rather than against the Blight. Same for mind control:
"You practiced blood magic on the nobles?" - "Of course. To nudge people, to keep our secret safe."

Fortunately, incidents like these remain scarce, the Wardens usually focusing on that which they were meant to fight.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I am an opponent of slavery, what can I say?[/quote]That is certainly one way to see it.
As I said - kudos to BioWare for creating such a controversial setting. 

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Some mages refer to mages as a whole as "my people," from The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden to Circle mage Bethany.[/quote]That doesn't make them a race any more than the same term being applied to the inhabitants of a specific city, company, or any other organization though.
Certainly we have a consensus in that they are a group - no discussion there.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Aneirin recommends The Warden to return to the Circle to help bring change to it (if the protagonist is a mage), and the next time Wynne speaks with The Warden, she recommends that he returns to the Circle. This is where the protagonist can point out that it's an oppressive place, and she argues that he can change that, given time. She says it's her dream, but that she doesn't think she will live long enough to make that dream a reality.[/quote]Ah, so we do mean the same thing. As I said, Wynne dislikes certain aspects of Circle life, yet remains convinced that reforming it is much preferrable to abandoning or destroying it, as the latter can only lead to bloodshed and a tainted future for all of them.

Make no mistake - the mages and the templars waging war against each other will only remove them further from the common people. If they were aiming for equality, it's a loose-loose situation. Regardless of whether they win or they loose, they will never be accepted this way. All they can do is suppress everyone else or face execution by the hands of the people fearing the former.
As ironic as it may sound, the rebellion is exactly what Lord Seeker Lambert needed to justify his actions.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Casting them as "cursed" to the point where mages are killed simply for being mages (as Wynne addresses), where Mother Hannah of Redcliffe needs to assure the Amell Warden that a mob won't kill him, where Keili thinks all mages need to die at the hands of templars, is hardly an issue of simply making mages "feel bad."[/quote]What you are referring to are extremes, however, which are not part of official Chantry doctrine.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I didn't realize Anders hating Fenris, specifically, dismissed his argument about how elves (as a whole) should be fighting for their rights at the side of mages. Simply because Anders hates Fenris, doesn't mean he hates elves as a whole.[/quote]Oh, I'm sure he would regard them as convenient allies - as long as they are useful.


[quote]Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...
In Dragon Age, it's:
1.  The Chantry and the Templars.
2.  Blood mages and mage radicals.
3.  Those that support mage's equal rights but insist that their abilities be used properly.
The first two are both different shades of evil. Option 3 is the good one, and it's the most logical and rational.
[/quote]I would say it would be more correct to refer to option 1 as the lesser evil, whilst option 3 is unrealistic idealism.

Unharrowed mages are a liability. No-one will undergo the Harrowing if he isn't forced. At some level, one will simply have to acknowledge that mages in DA:O aren't just "different", they can actually become a risk for anyone around them by no fault of their own and - in some cases - with no amount of training being able to change this.
Plus the temptation of abusing blood magic to control other people's minds to get what you want is pretty big. Could you resist it? Could I? Can anyone truly say he would never give in?

Modifié par Lynata, 11 avril 2012 - 08:37 .

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Option 3 is unrealistic, Lynata? People said that about the goals of the abolitionists centuries ago.

[Silfren]

Porenferser wrote...

No problem.
I really never understood the hate for Elthina.
People accuse her of doing nothing, but for real:
What COULD she have done?
If she had picked a side there would have been war anyway, just a little earlier.
In fact she was the only little buffer left between mages and templars.
She risked her life by staying, if she wouldn't have cared at all, she would have left the city.
Before her death, it might have ended more or less peacefully, but thanks to that ****face Anders......

Just compare this to a real life situation:
Do you hate the pope for not stopping the eternal war of religions?
He is just one man after all, he can't fullfill miracles.
So is the Grand Cleric.

And I personally never understand why people excuse Elthina's unwillingness to act by countering with "what COULD she have done?"  

She could have done any number of things.  Mostly obviously of all, if she simply felt that she lacked the power to back up her authority, she could have bloody well stepped down for someone more capable.

Perhaps her actions may have had little effect.  But the fact remains, she would have been doing SOMETHING.  It is her refusal to even TRY that we hate, those of us who do hate Elthina.  Her total response was simply to whine that Hawke overestimated her abilities, or to simply leave it up to the Maker's will.  She didn't even TRY to mediate a compromise, to say nothing of siding with one group over the other. 

She simply chose not to even try.  Why is it so strange that many of us find that apathetic response contemptible?

And for those who don't mind doing some off-site reading, Flutiebear over at Tumblr has some great essays on her own perspective of Grand Cleric Elthina, which I recommend simply because of the depth of research and insight it provides on the existing lore surrounding the Grand Cleric's personal history.  Here's a great one.  Lobselvith, you and EWR, I'm sure, will find it especially interesting.

[Rinshikai]

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

No problem.
I really never understood the hate for Elthina.
People accuse her of doing nothing, but for real:
What COULD she have done?
If she had picked a side there would have been war anyway, just a little earlier.
In fact she was the only little buffer left between mages and templars.
She risked her life by staying, if she wouldn't have cared at all, she would have left the city.
Before her death, it might have ended more or less peacefully, but thanks to that ****face Anders......

Just compare this to a real life situation:
Do you hate the pope for not stopping the eternal war of religions?
He is just one man after all, he can't fullfill miracles.
So is the Grand Cleric.

And I personally never understand why people excuse Elthina's unwillingness to act by countering with "what COULD she have done?"  

She could have done any number of things.  Mostly obviously of all, if she simply felt that she lacked the power to back up her authority, she could have bloody well stepped down for someone more capable.

Perhaps her actions may have had little effect.  But the fact remains, she would have been doing SOMETHING.  It is her refusal to even TRY that we hate, those of us who do hate Elthina.  Her total response was simply to whine that Hawke overestimated her abilities, or to simply leave it up to the Maker's will.  She didn't even TRY to mediate a compromise, to say nothing of siding with one group over the other. 

She simply chose not to even try.  Why is it so strange that many of us find that apathetic response contemptible?

And for those who don't mind doing some off-site reading, Flutiebear over at Tumblr has some great essays on her own perspective of Grand Cleric Elthina, which I recommend simply because of the depth of research and insight it provides on the existing lore surrounding the Grand Cleric's personal history.  Here's a great one.  Lobselvith, you and EWR, I'm sure, will find it especially interesting.

This is a really good article. I was not a fan of Elthina overall due to her inaction, and from what I saw as poor Chantry Leadership. Looking at the Art of War by Sun Tzu I can seen many of his teaching ringing on deaf ears.

http://greywardens.c...agic/#idc-cover

I thought about this article when I was reading this board. It gave me a different in site to magic.

[Porenferser]

First of all, thank you for the links, I will read the essays when I have time.

Second: Just imagine Elthina would have stepped in and (yeah, this is just my theory, but discussions need theorys) things would have gotten more out of hand then they were already.
Be it because of Meredith, who was already too crazy to be controlled, or Orsino who would have made his Harvester-thingy a little earlier, just imagine something like this.

I bet for a 1000 bucks that people would have ranted about her useless help that turned things worse just as much as about her stay out from the conflict.

I think people just search for a scapegoat in this conflict outside the actual contending leaders.

Modifié par Porenferser, 12 avril 2012 - 12:01 .

[Silfren]

Porenferser wrote...

First of all, thank you for the links, I will read the essays when I have time.

Second: Just imagine Elthina would have stepped in and (yeah, this is just my theory, but discussions need theorys) things would have gotten more out of hand then they were already.
Be it because of Meredith, who was already too crazy to be controlled, or Orsino who would have made his Harvester-thingy a little earlier, just imagine something like this.

I bet for a 1000 bucks that people would have ranted about her useless help that turned things worse just as much as about her stay out from the conflict.

I think people just search for a scapegoat in this conflict outside the actual contending leaders.

No, actually.  Had Elthina actively attempted to rein in Meredith and put a stop to the abuses of her templars, I would have a great deal more sympathy for her, even if her efforts were ultimately ineffective.  I don't think she deserved to die because her actions were ineffective, after all, but because she took NO action in the first place.  Taking action that ultimately proves ineffective is an ENTIRELY different animal from just choosing not to even attempt to act at all.  There's no comparison between the two attitudes.  Had the Grand Cleric been shown taking action to improve the mages' lot in Kirkwall, even if only as a moderate, not intending to reform the Circle, but just to enforce the laws protecting the rights mages were subject to, and preventing the abuses they suffered, then I would have seen her as a potential ally for mages, and my entire perspective on her death at Anders' hands would be different.

Choosing to take no action at all, but leave it in the Maker's hands, is not a laudable attitude.  It is abhorrent, especially so given that there is just no way Elthina didn't know the extent of and nature of the abuses that were going on, and it demonstrates a profound unwillingness to do one's job.  After all, even if she has little actual power, the fact is that as the Grand Cleric, Elthina does indeed have the authority to bring Meredith and her templars to heel.  Having that authority made it her responsibility.  But she did nothing. 

Modifié par Silfren, 12 avril 2012 - 12:09 .

[Always Alice]

IIRC there is a banter where Sebastian says that Meredith no longer listens to Elthina's advice,which implies that she at least tries to talk some reason into her.

[Rinshikai]

Always Alice wrote...

IIRC there is a banter where Sebastian says that Meredith no longer listens to Elthina's advice,which implies that she at least tries to talk some reason into her.

Actions speak louder then words they say.

[Urzon]

The Grand Cleric, a Mother, a couple of Ley Sister, and Sebastian

Vs.

Power hunger tyrant Meredith with a insanity inducing lightsaber, and an army of templars.

Meredith was already blocking any attempts of another Viscount, and she was pressing for control of the city guards constantly as well. If Elthina took a firm stand Meredith during act 3... she would have died. Meredith would have accused her of being a mage sympathizer or a blood mage thrall and killed her.

After that, i'm sure Meredith would have cleared out and killed the rest of the Chantry members, because who knows how deep the blood magic corruption would be. She would have made herself the supreme leader of Kirkwall then, and then proceded to call for an RoA on the Kirkwall Circle.

[DKJaigen]

The grand cleric just could have sent 1 single letter to a the divine or the knight vigilant and merdith would have been replaced. And she even failed at that.

[Ice-Whiz]

This is actually a really great thread. I have read that the devs made the whole Mage/Templar conflict more muddled, because most people sided with the mages in DA:O so they wanted to make it harder to pick a side and show more of the dangers about mages and what they are capable of. That people have such an emotional interest in it, should bode well for the third game, I think

[Urzon]

DKJaigen wrote...

The grand cleric just could have sent 1 single letter to a the divine or the knight vigilant and merdith would have been replaced. And she even failed at that.

As bad as it sounds, The Divine and/or the Knight Vigilant probably thought someone like Meredith was needed in Kirkwall. Though, they might not have know the full extent of Meredith's paranoia and insanity at the end.

There were literal gangs of blood mages roaming the street in Kirkwall. They were enslaving people, as well as attacking the templars and city guards. Not to mention, the Mage Underground in the city were getting more agressive in their actions against the templars. They were sending raiding parties into the Gallows to help free the mages that couldn't escape for themselves.

Sure they might have replaced Meredith with someone else, and that could result in the city getting a new Viscount. But other than that, you still have a city swarming with blood mages, rebellious apostates attacking the Circle to free mages, and a city living in fear.

As Seb's DLC says, Kirkwall was one straw away from breaking the camel's back. The Divine was seriously thinking of just sending in a Exalted March to be done with it. With how rushed ActIII seemed, i don't think they truely conveyed just how bad the situation really was in Kirkwall at the time.

Though that could be just me.

Modifié par Urzon, 12 avril 2012 - 11:16 .

[M-Taylor]

Darkrider296 wrote...

No matter what the game throws at me I keep my real world ideas because I know that they would make Thedas a better place if they were more widely applied. I'm not going to appease the racist and bigoted attitudes of modern Thedas

That kind of attitude is so incredibly arrogant and is infact what leads to so many wars.

Just because YOUR ideology is suitable for the society and culture you live in does not automatically that everyone wants them enforced onto them. The simple fact is that your ideology doesn't apply to Thedas; we don't have people walking around that can instantly slaughter a reasonable amount of people with a swish of their hands, or can possibly be possessed and threaten entire cities.

They're locked up for a reason. I'm not saying I support the Templars (my main DA:O/DA2 playthroughs were both mages and very much anti Chantry), but I'm saying I do understand their reasoning. Approaching the subject with nothing more than an attitude of 'everyone deserves equality' is not applical if you ask me.

Plus, your ideology is constructed through how society brought you up (assuming you live in the western world, that is. Sorry if you don't and I'm just assuming this ). In modern cultures, this equaility spreads to everything from race/sexuality/gender and even economical finance. The government supports the poor so they aren't in danger. That isn't being done in Thedas either, yet you aren't arguing about that. Hell, in DA2 there's quite literally 2 large parts of the city devouted to infering how bad living conditions are for poor people in Thedas. From that, yeah, I can see Dave of Canadas point if view; mages live quite comfortably compared to poor people (who are also at the risk of unfair treatment, rape, assault, murder etc etc).

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see why you are dismissing the fact that mages can be free and hold positions of authority without emulating the Tevinter Imperium. When I cite examples of alternative societies, you make it out to be as though these cultures are so utterly inhuman that it would be impossible to compare, but that's simply not the case.[/quote]

Not "inhuman", simply too different to apply as viable examples. These societies teach different values, explaining how there might be a lower susceptibility to temptation, which in turn - in combination with their (on average) lesser powers - explains why they might not be as feared or shunned. [/quote]

I suppose the lack of oppression by a brutal, anti-mage religious regime does create a divide between the Andrastian nations and the non-Andrastian societies where free mages aren't trying to emulate the Imperium.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You're addressing multiple cultures on the opinion of one single Magister? I guess if one man has an opinion, it must be true.[/quote]

Well, it's better than your personal opinion as a player with an obvious agenda but no actual knowledge of said cultures aside from "they don't seem to fear their mages".

In short: it's not much, but it is something, it doesn't contradict with anything else - and it sounds as if it makes sense. [/quote]

I'm addressing what we know from the codex entries about those societies, and what we know about the Dalish from the protagonist's encounters with them. I'm also not certain why you're claiming I have an 'agenda' simply because I side with the mages, when you clearly side with the templars.

Regardless, the fact remains that we know from the codex entries (and even David Gaider) that these societies have mages who aren't "controlled," and that even in spite of abominations, they aren't oppressing mages like the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars. The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Kingdom of Rivain disprove the claim that free mages would inevitably try to emulate the Tevinter Imperium.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Nothing you have stated dismisses the fact that tribal societies can face temptation as well, and that tribal people are flawed like everyone else. In the fictional world of Thedas, demons can temptations to mages, and I don't see why you continue to dismiss that.[/quote]

I have explained multiple times now that whilst any society can face temptation it will differ in both nature and strength depending on where you grew up and what you've been taught.

Why do we even continue this back-and-forth? [/quote]

I suppose brutally oppressing men, women, and children in an system that is condemned by some as slavery marks the Circle mages as facing different temptations than the free mages in the non-Andrastian societies who don't face the same issues.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

They are closer to medieval, not modern.[/quote]

More modern than the Avvar or the Chasind. [/quote]

More oppressive by subjugating countless people for how they were born would be more likely.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

So you're saying that the mage Wardens care more about saving the world than taking it over?[/quote]

Obviously. If they wouldn't, the other Grey Wardens would simply kill them.

Actually, shouldn't you regard this as oppression as well? [/quote]

I don't call the Wardens in the Deep Roads trying to kill Anders for not doing his duty as a Grey Warden, or even trying to make an attempt if they see him during the Qunari invasion of Kirkwall. In fact, Fiona left the Wardens, and no one killed her. The Hero of Ferelden can leave the Wardens, and no one tries to kill him (or her). I don't see how you can claim that the Wardens would kill Warden mages who left the organization, or didn't do their duty, when they clearly aren't doing so with the Warden mages we encounter, or read about.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Sophia Dryden? You mean the Grey Warden who tried to overthrow a tyrant? Yeah, she reminds me of that other Grey Warden who got involved with politics during the Fifth Blight.[/quote]

Weren't these two one and the same?

Anyways - it's a good example of a Warden blood mage summoning a demon to fight for personal gain rather than against the Blight. Same for mind control:
"You practiced blood magic on the nobles?" - "Of course. To nudge people, to keep our secret safe."

Fortunately, incidents like these remain scarce, the Wardens usually focusing on that which they were meant to fight. [/quote]

How is Avernus fighting for personal gain when Sophia Dryden was the one leading the charge to topple an oppressive ruler? And summoning the demons was about trying to stay alive against the army of Ferelden.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Some mages refer to mages as a whole as "my people," from The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden to Circle mage Bethany.[/quote]

That doesn't make them a race any more than the same term being applied to the inhabitants of a specific city, company, or any other organization though.
Certainly we have a consensus in that they are a group - no discussion there. [/quote]

Race is a classification system that is utilized to denote humans into specific groups, so I don't see why mages couldn't be classified as their own group. Discussions in the past have had people argue that mages can be classified as their own race of people.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Aneirin recommends The Warden to return to the Circle to help bring change to it (if the protagonist is a mage), and the next time Wynne speaks with The Warden, she recommends that he returns to the Circle. This is where the protagonist can point out that it's an oppressive place, and she argues that he can change that, given time. She says it's her dream, but that she doesn't think she will live long enough to make that dream a reality.[/quote]

Ah, so we do mean the same thing. As I said, Wynne dislikes certain aspects of Circle life, yet remains convinced that reforming it is much preferrable to abandoning or destroying it, as the latter can only lead to bloodshed and a tainted future for all of them.

Make no mistake - the mages and the templars waging war against each other will only remove them further from the common people. If they were aiming for equality, it's a loose-loose situation. Regardless of whether they win or they loose, they will never be accepted this way. All they can do is suppress everyone else or face execution by the hands of the people fearing the former.
As ironic as it may sound, the rebellion is exactly what Lord Seeker Lambert needed to justify his actions. [/quote]

It's a matter of life and death, as she confides to her close friend at the City of Amaranthine, because she thinks the Chantry would try to kill all the mages if the Circles tried to break free. The fact that the Hero of Ferelden can be from the Circle of Ferelden and argue that mages need to try to emancipate themselves, or that they will "never be free," should address that Wynne's opinion of how to deal with the situation isn't the only one.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Casting them as "cursed" to the point where mages are killed simply for being mages (as Wynne addresses), where Mother Hannah of Redcliffe needs to assure the Amell Warden that a mob won't kill him, where Keili thinks all mages need to die at the hands of templars, is hardly an issue of simply making mages "feel bad."[/quote]

What you are referring to are extremes, however, which are not part of official Chantry doctrine. [/quote]

The fact that a the local head of the Chantry needs to assure a mage that a mob won't try to murder him while he (or she) is trying to save the village tells me this is how life is for mages in Andrastian society.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize Anders hating Fenris, specifically, dismissed his argument about how elves (as a whole) should be fighting for their rights at the side of mages. Simply because Anders hates Fenris, doesn't mean he hates elves as a whole.[/quote]

Oh, I'm sure he would regard them as convenient allies - as long as they are useful. [/quote]

I don't see that as the case, especially when he admits he's willing to give himself up to Aveline because he wants to live in a society where everyone is treated equally. He's essentially arguing in favor of the principles that Aldenon the Great tried to fight for.

[Lynata]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I suppose the lack of oppression by a brutal, anti-mage religious regime does create a divide between the Andrastian nations and the non-Andrastian societies where free mages aren't trying to emulate the Imperium.[/quote]If you think this is the only difference between the Andrastean nations and communities such as the Avvar or the Dalish, you're deluding yourself. That's all I have to say to this.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm addressing what we know from the codex entries about those societies, and what we know about the Dalish from the protagonist's encounters with them. I'm also not certain why you're claiming I have an 'agenda' simply because I side with the mages, when you clearly side with the templars.[/quote]So where exactly did this magister's research - which is just as valid as the Codex entries - contradict them?

I also don't recall ever having claimed I would not have an agenda. The amount of energy the both of us have put into discussing this topic should be clear enough. We both have our perceptions of the setting and remain convinced we are in the right. Vicious cycle. 

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Regardless, the fact remains that we know from the codex entries (and even David Gaider) that these societies have mages who aren't "controlled," and that even in spite of abominations, they aren't oppressing mages like the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars.[/quote]Another "fact" that remains is that they have fewer recognized mages to begin with, that their powers are generally not as versatile/destructive and that we do not actually know how they fit into their various societies. We know very little about the Avvar, the Chasind or the Rivaini, and even less about their wizards/shamans/witches/etc.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Kingdom of Rivain disprove the claim that free mages would inevitably try to emulate the Tevinter Imperium.[/quote]If every nation on Thedas would have a culture similar to the Dalish - sure. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I suppose brutally oppressing men, women, and children in an system that is condemned by some as slavery marks the Circle mages as facing different temptations than the free mages in the non-Andrastian societies who don't face the same issues.[/quote]Yes, I'm quite sure that many of the Circle's policies are intended to reduce the contact their mages have with things that would weaken their resolve. Focusing the mages' efforts on learning or communal services would seem to be much more beneficial than allowing them to run around and, say, try to raise their social status or become rich or sleep with every girl in town. You know, the kind of temptations everyone else is facing.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
More oppressive by subjugating countless people for how they were born would be more likely.[/quote]Safer than allowing the mages to exploit and oppress way, way, way more people for how they were not born more likely.

Two can play this game.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't call the Wardens in the Deep Roads trying to kill Anders for not doing his duty as a Grey Warden, or even trying to make an attempt if they see him during the Qunari invasion of Kirkwall.[/quote]Lack of knowledge, I'd presume. Anders is on the run from the order. Having killed several Grey Wardens, I would expect them to run him through if they'd knew it was really him.

Just answer this question: Do you believe that, generally, the Grey Wardens would not intervene if one of their own would put his own goals before the order? The term "order" already implies how they operate. The Grey Wardens have their own rules just like the Circle or the templars.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
In fact, Fiona left the Wardens, and no one killed her.[/quote]Which is pretty confusing, wouldn't you say? The Grey Wardens kill everyone who doesn't wish to go through the Joining in order to preserve their secrets. It always seemed like an "once you're in, you're in forever" kind of deal.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Hero of Ferelden can leave the Wardens, and no one tries to kill him (or her).[/quote]Actually, I don't recall this one. Only that the Hero of Ferelden travels a lot - but this would apply to a lot of Grey Wardens, I presume.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
How is Avernus fighting for personal gain when Sophia Dryden was the one leading the charge to topple an oppressive ruler? And summoning the demons was about trying to stay alive against the army of Ferelden.[/quote]Avernus was fighting for Sophia's personal gain when he should've fought for the Warden's actual goal. Not that I disagree with Sophia's motivations - yet they violate the order's purpose and endangered its position. The circumstances of his summoning are of no concern, the fact remains that when push came to shove he resorted to it. As all too many mages do.

That you only start launching the nukes when it gets tough does not change the fact that you shouldn't have them, given that the mere option is temptation enough to escalate an issue rather than letting it rest.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Race is a classification system that is utilized to denote humans into specific groups, so I don't see why mages couldn't be classified as their own group. Discussions in the past have had people argue that mages can be classified as their own race of people.[/quote]Funny. Are gingers their own race now, too?

When you're quoting from wikipedia, at least don't omit the other half of the sentence:
"Race is a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by heritable phenotypic characteristics, geographic ancestry, physical appearance, and ethnicity."

If every child of a mage would be a mage, too, things might be different. As it is, however, mages are no more a race than people with blue eyes or black hair.
Magical affinity is, at best, a genetic mutation that may or may not be inherited by one's descendants. Just like the tendency to become fat faster than other people even when you're eating the same stuff and working out just as much.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
It's a matter of life and death, as she confides to her close friend at the City of Amaranthine, because she thinks the Chantry would try to kill all the mages if the Circles tried to break free.[/quote]Was this ever in question? Mages breaking free is pretty much the worst case scenario for the majority of Thedas' human population.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The fact that a the local head of the Chantry needs to assure a mage that a mob won't try to murder him while he (or she) is trying to save the village tells me this is how life is for mages in Andrastian society.[/quote]The fact that the local head of the Chantry is doing this should tell you that some villagers' opinion is an extreme of what said head of the Chantry has been teaching, actually.

Villagers have a tendency to see things in black or white, especially when they have made bad experiences with mages in the past - like that mob Ser Evangeline had to protect the mages she was travelling with from. It's the "uninformed peasant" cliché, and it makes sense for a setting like Thedas.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see that as the case, especially when he admits he's willing to give himself up to Aveline because he wants to live in a society where everyone is treated equally. He's essentially arguing in favor of the principles that Aldenon the Great tried to fight for.[/quote]Judging from all his actions, it seems to me that his sense of equality stops at "mages should be free". And just like most Libertarian mages following this way of thinking, he doesn't even know what he's talking about - in Awakening, he was still a big fan of the Tevinter Imperium because he apparently doesn't know at all how it really is like there.
Anders is an egoist. He doesn't even care for what other mages want, only what he thinks they should want.

[Always Alice]

Rinshikai wrote...

Always Alice wrote...

IIRC there is a banter where Sebastian says that Meredith no longer listens to Elthina's advice,which implies that she at least tries to talk some reason into her.

Actions speak louder then words they say.

Maybe, but it's not "nothing." Not disagreeing that she should have done more, however.

[DKJaigen]

Urzon wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

The grand cleric just could have sent 1 single letter to a the divine or the knight vigilant and merdith would have been replaced. And she even failed at that.

As bad as it sounds, The Divine and/or the Knight Vigilant probably thought someone like Meredith was needed in Kirkwall. Though, they might not have know the full extent of Meredith's paranoia and insanity at the end.

There were literal gangs of blood mages roaming the street in Kirkwall. They were enslaving people, as well as attacking the templars and city guards. Not to mention, the Mage Underground in the city were getting more agressive in their actions against the templars. They were sending raiding parties into the Gallows to help free the mages that couldn't escape for themselves.

Sure they might have replaced Meredith with someone else, and that could result in the city getting a new Viscount. But other than that, you still have a city swarming with blood mages, rebellious apostates attacking the Circle to free mages, and a city living in fear.

As Seb's DLC says, Kirkwall was one straw away from breaking the camel's back. The Divine was seriously thinking of just sending in a Exalted March to be done with it. With how rushed ActIII seemed, i don't think they truely conveyed just how bad the situation really was in Kirkwall at the time.

Though that could be just me.

The only thing she should have said is that she is pissing of the nobility with her antics and the problem is solved. The chantry is still dependant on the good will of the nobility you know. And both the divine and the knight vigilant would have replaced for that reason even if a desire demon opens a  new brothel in kirkwall.

[Urzon]

DKJaigen wrote...

The only thing she should have said is that she is pissing of the nobility with her antics and the problem is solved. The chantry is still dependant on the good will of the nobility you know. And both the divine and the knight vigilant would have replaced for that reason even if a desire demon opens a  new brothel in kirkwall.

If the Kirkwall nobles were powerful enough to sway the Chantry, they wouldn't need to go through Elthina to do so. They have more than enough money, and the means to do it on their own. If they had to go threw the Grand Cleric just for their thoughts to be heard, obviously that impies that the Chantry isn't nearly dependant on the nobles as you might think.

But, lets says they did somehow get Meredith replaced. What is that going to solve for Kirkwall. The only thing i can imagine they would get out of the replacement is a new Viscount.

What is the new replacement going to do about the blood mage gangs? Since, i'd imagine they was the number one fear factor in Kirkwall at the time. Is he/she going to send templars after them? That isn't any different then what Meredith was doing, and she was doing it quite ruthlessly.

What is he or she going to do about the Mage Underground? Tell them that they will treat the mages in the Circle better, and then kindly tell them to leave the Gallows alone? If they tell them that, all you did what show them you aren't nearly and ruthless as Meredith was.

You have a bunch of mages that aren't afraid to attack and raid the Gallows. Add to that, their mentality that mages should be free, and them knowing you are alot more softer than Meredith in punishments.

What you get from that is..... Even more attacks on the Gallows to free the mages!

Which leads too...... Even more angry aposates on the streets of Kirkwal, and some of them might even resort to blood magic!

And then... That leads to even more fear on the streets!

Which leads too..... A tougher crackdown by the templars in the search from the escaped mages!

Which leads too.... even more angry mages that have a higher chance to resort to blood magic because of the templars!

And the cycle begins anew!