1194 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

Urzon wrote...
But, lets says they did somehow get Meredith replaced. What is that going to solve for Kirkwall. The only thing i can imagine they would get out of the replacement is a new Viscount.

Depends on the timing, I'd say.  If Meredith had been replaced before things went completely bonkers - say at the end of Act 2 when Hawke has saved the city and could provide a surge of hope and good will - then I do think things might have calmed down and war might have been averted.

The question for me is, should things calm down?  Is avoiding war at all costs really the "best" answer? 

All game evidence suggests that the Chantry's fear mongering is not helping.  There will always be mages who cannot abide having their freedom stolen to make other people feel safer.  This will always lead to unrest.  This will lead to incidents like Uldred which in turn give the Chantry more ammunition against mages.  It is a vicious cycle.

The cycle has to break in order for true peace to be possible.  If the Chantry hasn't found motivation in 900 years to fix this problem, it's because they don't want to.  And why should they?  They just invoke a Right of Annulment and start over.  But that's not a solution.

Think about Connor:  an entire village nearly wiped out because a woman was so warped by the dogma of the Chantry that she kept her son's ability secret and invited a stranger into her home rather than send Connor away for life.  Redcliffe was destroyed because of the Chantry.  If Isolde hadn't felt shame and fear at finding out her son was a mage, Connor might have recieved proper training.  Jowan would never have been invited in to be able to carry out Loghain's treachery.

Respect breeds respect and contempt breeds contempt.  Treating mages like criminals will tend to make things worse.  Treating mages like valued members of the community (who happen to require special training) appears to make things better.  The Chansind, Dalish and Rivaini are not all overrun by blood mages and abominations.  Even Tevinter isn't overrun by abominations.

It's nature vs. nurture folks, and I don't see any case in the game where mages are shown to be evil by nature to any greater extent than any other social group.  And before someone brings up Tevinter, let's all admit that anyone being raised in that society is going to be tainted.  That's still an issue of nurture.

And I really don't see where you can claim that more lives are saved by backing mages into a corner (if a circle can be said to have a corner) and then slaughtering them all when you don't like the results.

Everything that happened in Kirkwall happened despite 900 years of the Chantry system.  Perhaps even because of it.  So, rampant blood mages, abominations, Templars abuses and insanity aren't stopped by the circle system.  And still, the Templars would rather leave the Chantry than pursue some other solution.  It's hard for me to understand why anyone on the forums still says the circle is better than (trained but) free mages.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I suppose the lack of oppression by a brutal, anti-mage religious regime does create a divide between the Andrastian nations and the non-Andrastian societies where free mages aren't trying to emulate the Imperium.[/quote]

If you think this is the only difference between the Andrastean nations and communities such as the Avvar or the Dalish, you're deluding yourself. That's all I have to say to this. [/quote]

I certainly think the fact that they aren't oppressing mages under a brutal system of oppression is a significant difference between their societies.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm addressing what we know from the codex entries about those societies, and what we know about the Dalish from the protagonist's encounters with them. I'm also not certain why you're claiming I have an 'agenda' simply because I side with the mages, when you clearly side with the templars.[/quote]

So where exactly did this magister's research - which is just as valid as the Codex entries - contradict them?

I also don't recall ever having claimed I would not have an agenda. The amount of energy the both of us have put into discussing this topic should be clear enough. We both have our perceptions of the setting and remain convinced we are in the right. Vicious cycle.  [/quote]

Addressing basic information, like the Rivain seers allowing spirits into them, or the Dalish claims about the Exalted March on the Dales, is quite a different thing than addressing that one society is inferior to another. While I cite certain information, I certainly don't hold to some views proposed in the codex entries that are clearly slanted and biased, like Genitivi's claim that humans are the rightful "masters of Thedas."

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Regardless, the fact remains that we know from the codex entries (and even David Gaider) that these societies have mages who aren't "controlled," and that even in spite of abominations, they aren't oppressing mages like the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars.[/quote]

Another "fact" that remains is that they have fewer recognized mages to begin with, that their powers are generally not as versatile/destructive and that we do not actually know how they fit into their various societies. We know very little about the Avvar, the Chasind or the Rivaini, and even less about their wizards/shamans/witches/etc. [/quote]

If I was addressing how powerful a Circle mage was in comparison to a mage from the Avvar or the Chasind, you would have a point, but I'm addressing the basic fact that the Avvar and the Chasind aren't discriminating mages like the people living in Andrastian society are.

According to the Bioware Blog, "It is a templar’s place to watch their charges for signs of weakness or corruption, and should they find it to act without hesitation for the good of all. That this occasionally leads to charges of tyranny and abuse is, according to the Chantry, a price that must be paid for the security the templars offer." The fact that the codex openly addresses that some "are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas" leads me to realize that even in Thedas, people debate whether the Chantry controlled Circles are necessary.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Kingdom of Rivain disprove the claim that free mages would inevitably try to emulate the Tevinter Imperium.[/quote]

If every nation on Thedas would have a culture similar to the Dalish - sure. Unfortunately, that is not the case. [/quote]

Not with the Andrastian Chantry preaching that magic is a "curse," of course. This becomes apparent when Bethany asks Merrill about the free mages among the Dalish.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I suppose brutally oppressing men, women, and children in an system that is condemned by some as slavery marks the Circle mages as facing different temptations than the free mages in the non-Andrastian societies who don't face the same issues.[/quote]

Yes, I'm quite sure that many of the Circle's policies are intended to reduce the contact their mages have with things that would weaken their resolve. Focusing the mages' efforts on learning or communal services would seem to be much more beneficial than allowing them to run around and, say, try to raise their social status or become rich or sleep with every girl in town. You know, the kind of temptations everyone else is facing. [/quote]

Except mages are imprisoned in Circle Towers because mages peacefully protested their lack of rights centuries ago, as we can read in the "History of the Circle" codex. Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral as a result.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

More oppressive by subjugating countless people for how they were born would be more likely.[/quote]

Safer than allowing the mages to exploit and oppress way, way, way more people for how they were not born more likely.

Two can play this game. [/quote]

Not safer for mages like Alain, who was raped by templars because he was threatened with the Rite of Tranquility. Not safe for Ella, a child mage who was threatened with tranquility and implied rape by Alrik. Even a female Hawke can have Kerras threaten her with implied rape. A pro-mage Hawke can encounter a woman who is going to be murdered by a death squad of templars because she fed her starving and tortured mage cousin. I don't see how anyone would be safe from templars who can abuse their rights against mages, because templars have "divine right" over them. It's this imbalance that pushes people to advocate against the Chantry controlled Circles of Magi.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't call the Wardens in the Deep Roads trying to kill Anders for not doing his duty as a Grey Warden, or even trying to make an attempt if they see him during the Qunari invasion of Kirkwall.[/quote]

Lack of knowledge, I'd presume. Anders is on the run from the order. Having killed several Grey Wardens, I would expect them to run him through if they'd knew it was really him.

Just answer this question: Do you believe that, generally, the Grey Wardens would not intervene if one of their own would put his own goals before the order? The term "order" already implies how they operate. The Grey Wardens have their own rules just like the Circle or the templars. [/quote]

That short story doesn't really make much sense, especially considering that a pro-mage Warden-Commander isn't going to bend knee to the templars. Especially one who asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence. In addition to King Alistair or Queen Anora having no problem with Anders' entry into the Wardens. It also has Anders eating human flesh and being immune to weapons, which clearly isn't the case since Anders can be killed by a knife, and never desires human flesh. Anders isn't the first mage to enter the Wardens, and it isn't rare for mages to be part of the organization. I suppose it's supposed to serve as the scenerio if Anders wasn't recruited by the Warden-Commander, but another organization after he fled again from Rylock (since Justice isn't possessing Kristoff), but even then the Wardens are autonomous from the Chantry, as (Head Writer) David Gaider noted when he addressed that Grey Warden mages don't have to give up their children to the Chantry.

The Wardens who encounter Anders - lead by Stroud in the Deep Roads - know that Anders defected from the Order. The Wardens know that the Hero of Ferelden is no longer serving as the Warden-Commander, as the Epilogue slide notes with a romanced Leliana (although I would assume the same is true with the Hero of Ferelden who leaves the Order to be with Morrigan and his son at the end of Witch Hunt).

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In fact, Fiona left the Wardens, and no one killed her.[/quote]

Which is pretty confusing, wouldn't you say? The Grey Wardens kill everyone who doesn't wish to go through the Joining in order to preserve their secrets. It always seemed like an "once you're in, you're in forever" kind of deal. [/quote]

She becomes a very prominent member of the Circles of Magi, so it could be the same as how Alistair can become King in Origins. The Anderfel Wardens clearly value the idea of Wardens gaining authority and power outside of the time during a Blight, as Mistress Woolsey explains to the Warden-Commander at Amaranthine. To address your example, I don't think it's quite the same thing as someone refusing to go through with the Joining, and being more likely to spill the secrets than someone who has shown that they can abide by the rules. We see that even Queen Anora knew there were risks with the Joining, when she advocates for her father to become a Grey Warden as opposed to killing him.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hero of Ferelden can leave the Wardens, and no one tries to kill him (or her).[/quote]

Actually, I don't recall this one. Only that the Hero of Ferelden travels a lot - but this would apply to a lot of Grey Wardens, I presume. [/quote]

If The Warden survives: the Dwarven Noble is made Paragon and given his (or her) own House. The City Elf Warden can become the first elven Bann of the Alienage. Any Hero of Ferelden can become Teyrn of Gwaren. It's also noted for The Warden who romanced Leliana in Awakening.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

How is Avernus fighting for personal gain when Sophia Dryden was the one leading the charge to topple an oppressive ruler? And summoning the demons was about trying to stay alive against the army of Ferelden.[/quote]

Avernus was fighting for Sophia's personal gain when he should've fought for the Warden's actual goal. Not that I disagree with Sophia's motivations - yet they violate the order's purpose and endangered its position. The circumstances of his summoning are of no concern, the fact remains that when push came to shove he resorted to it. As all too many mages do.

That you only start launching the nukes when it gets tough does not change the fact that you shouldn't have them, given that the mere option is temptation enough to escalate an issue rather than letting it rest. [/quote]

Avernus was helping Sophia against a tyrant, so I don't really blame him for that. Especially given the dark things that were being said about Arland. I certainly don't agree with Avernus summoning so many demons, but trying to overthrow a despot isn't something I would criticize either one for.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Race is a classification system that is utilized to denote humans into specific groups, so I don't see why mages couldn't be classified as their own group. Discussions in the past have had people argue that mages can be classified as their own race of people.[/quote]

Funny. Are gingers their own race now, too?

When you're quoting from wikipedia, at least don't omit the other half of the sentence:
"Race is a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by heritable phenotypic characteristics, geographic ancestry, physical appearance, and ethnicity."

If every child of a mage would be a mage, too, things might be different. As it is, however, mages are no more a race than people with blue eyes or black hair.
Magical affinity is, at best, a genetic mutation that may or may not be inherited by one's descendants. Just like the tendency to become fat faster than other people even when you're eating the same stuff and working out just as much. [/quote]

The basic idea that race classifies humans can be ascertained from pretty much everything; it isn't limited to any one source of information. Pull up Yahoo, Google, or any search engine, and put in "race" and "classification" and you can find there are a plethora of sources.

As for the discussion at hand, there have been debates about classifying mages as their own people during the discussions about the Right of Annulment, and those ended in stalemates between the people advocating in favor of the mages, and the people supporting the templars.

Regardless of where we fall on the debate, the actual mage characters in the narrative address that mages are their "people," from The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden to Circle mage Bethany.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a matter of life and death, as she confides to her close friend at the City of Amaranthine, because she thinks the Chantry would try to kill all the mages if the Circles tried to break free.[/quote]

Was this ever in question? Mages breaking free is pretty much the worst case scenario for the majority of Thedas' human population. [/quote]

Not everyone shares your opinion; the new ruler of Ferelden proclaims that mages have earned the right to govern themselves, if The Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence. A moderate like Irving even supports what The Warden requested, and profusely thanks him for asking for this boon instead of asking for wealth.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The fact that a the local head of the Chantry needs to assure a mage that a mob won't try to murder him while he (or she) is trying to save the village tells me this is how life is for mages in Andrastian society.[/quote]

The fact that the local head of the Chantry is doing this should tell you that some villagers' opinion is an extreme of what said head of the Chantry has been teaching, actually.

Villagers have a tendency to see things in black or white, especially when they have made bad experiences with mages in the past - like that mob Ser Evangeline had to protect the mages she was travelling with from. It's the "uninformed peasant" cliché, and it makes sense for a setting like Thedas. [/quote]

The Andrastian peasants who view magic as a curse like many other Andrastian in the two games, you mean.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see that as the case, especially when he admits he's willing to give himself up to Aveline because he wants to live in a society where everyone is treated equally. He's essentially arguing in favor of the principles that Aldenon the Great tried to fight for.[/quote]

Judging from all his actions, it seems to me that his sense of equality stops at "mages should be free". And just like most Libertarian mages following this way of thinking, he doesn't even know what he's talking about - in Awakening, he was still a big fan of the Tevinter Imperium because he apparently doesn't know at all how it really is like there.
Anders is an egoist. He doesn't even care for what other mages want, only what he thinks they should want. [/quote]

What are you talking about? In Awakening, Anders openly disagreed with the idea of the Circles of Magi trying to break free from the Chantry when Wynne initially brings the issue up, and it's The Warden who can disagree with her. Justice is the one who tries to push Anders to give a damn about his people in Amaranthine:

Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.

Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?

Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?

Anders: Because it sounds difficult?

Justice: Apathy is a weakness.

Anders: So is death, I'm just saying.

This is further addressed in another dialogue between the two characters:

Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.

Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?

Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed!

Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.

Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.

Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

[DKJaigen]

Urzon wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

The only thing she should have said is that she is pissing of the nobility with her antics and the problem is solved. The chantry is still dependant on the good will of the nobility you know. And both the divine and the knight vigilant would have replaced for that reason even if a desire demon opens a  new brothel in kirkwall.

If the Kirkwall nobles were powerful enough to sway the Chantry, they wouldn't need to go through Elthina to do so. They have more than enough money, and the means to do it on their own. If they had to go threw the Grand Cleric just for their thoughts to be heard, obviously that impies that the Chantry isn't nearly dependant on the nobles as you might think.

But, lets says they did somehow get Meredith replaced. What is that going to solve for Kirkwall. The only thing i can imagine they would get out of the replacement is a new Viscount.

What is the new replacement going to do about the blood mage gangs? Since, i'd imagine they was the number one fear factor in Kirkwall at the time. Is he/she going to send templars after them? That isn't any different then what Meredith was doing, and she was doing it quite ruthlessly.

What is he or she going to do about the Mage Underground? Tell them that they will treat the mages in the Circle better, and then kindly tell them to leave the Gallows alone? If they tell them that, all you did what show them you aren't nearly and ruthless as Meredith was.

You have a bunch of mages that aren't afraid to attack and raid the Gallows. Add to that, their mentality that mages should be free, and them knowing you are alot more softer than Meredith in punishments.

What you get from that is..... Even more attacks on the Gallows to free the mages!

Which leads too...... Even more angry aposates on the streets of Kirkwal, and some of them might even resort to blood magic!

And then... That leads to even more fear on the streets!

Which leads too..... A tougher crackdown by the templars in the search from the escaped mages!

Which leads too.... even more angry mages that have a higher chance to resort to blood magic because of the templars!

And the cycle begins anew!

Nice speculation.

[Lynata]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Addressing basic information, like the Rivain seers allowing spirits into them, or the Dalish claims about the Exalted March on the Dales, is quite a different thing than addressing that one society is inferior to another.[/quote]Missing the point. Or deliberately trying to twist my words.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 
If I was addressing how powerful a Circle mage was in comparison to a mage from the Avvar or the Chasind, you would have a point, but I'm addressing the basic fact that the Avvar and the Chasind aren't discriminating mages like the people living in Andrastian society are.[/quote]Right. How dangerous a mage is totally has -nothing- to do with how much they are feared by people.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote... 
Not with the Andrastian Chantry preaching that magic is a "curse," of course.[/quote]Not with Andrastian and Tevinter nations being dog-eat-dog cultures, rather. But go ahead and deny that things like greed, envy and abuse are way more prominent there than in communal societies. I'd say it's delusional, but as I said, we can only agree to disagree.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Except mages are imprisoned in Circle Towers because mages peacefully protested their lack of rights centuries ago, as we can read in the "History of the Circle" codex. Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral as a result.[/quote]I think you're missing the bit that mages were still imprisoned in the cathedral back then. The Circles are an improvement - as is the fact that the mages were allowed to do more than just light up enchanted glowlamps like they did at first.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Not safer for mages like [...][/quote]Safer for the hundreds of thousands of innocent people you are willing to cast aside because you care more for a few hundred mages, out of whom some may face the same abuse as other common folk in Thedas.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
That short story doesn't really make much sense [...][/quote]Ahh, another claim of "this doesn't make sense so it's not canon for me". Got it.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
She becomes a very prominent member of the Circles of Magi, so it could be the same as how Alistair can become King in Origins. The Anderfel Wardens clearly value the idea of Wardens gaining authority and power outside of the time during a Blight, as Mistress Woolsey explains to the Warden-Commander at Amaranthine.[/quote]The Wardens also value their neutrality even more. I daresay Fiona's personal ambitions will put the order in a tight spot - the Grey Wardens will either be forced to side with or publicly denounce her.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
If The Warden survives: the Dwarven Noble is made Paragon and given his (or her) own House. The City Elf Warden can become the first elven Bann of the Alienage. Any Hero of Ferelden can become Teyrn of Gwaren. It's also noted for The Warden who romanced Leliana in Awakening.[/quote]Yeah, but they wouldn't leave the Order.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Regardless of where we fall on the debate, the actual mage characters in the narrative address that mages are their "people," from The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden to Circle mage Bethany.[/quote]Being "a people" is different from being "a race". A people can be a tribe or a nation, yet its inhabitans will likely be of the same race as their neighbors.

Not that this bit is truly worth discussing, though.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Not everyone shares your opinion [...][/quote]Nope. But the vast majority does.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
What are you talking about? In Awakening, Anders openly disagreed with the idea of the Circles of Magi trying to break free from the Chantry when Wynne initially brings the issue up, and it's The Warden who can disagree with her. Justice is the one who tries to push Anders to give a damn about his people in Amaranthine:[/quote]... so? Weren't you discussing the DA2-Anders? Because the Anders in Awakening also thought that he wanted to live in Tevinter because it's totally cool there.

Modifié par Lynata, 13 avril 2012 - 07:00 .

[DKJaigen]

Urzon wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

The only thing she should have said is that she is pissing of the nobility with her antics and the problem is solved. The chantry is still dependant on the good will of the nobility you know. And both the divine and the knight vigilant would have replaced for that reason even if a desire demon opens a  new brothel in kirkwall.

If the Kirkwall nobles were powerful enough to sway the Chantry, they wouldn't need to go through Elthina to do so. They have more than enough money, and the means to do it on their own. If they had to go threw the Grand Cleric just for their thoughts to be heard, obviously that impies that the Chantry isn't nearly dependant on the nobles as you might think.

But, lets says they did somehow get Meredith replaced. What is that going to solve for Kirkwall. The only thing i can imagine they would get out of the replacement is a new Viscount.

What is the new replacement going to do about the blood mage gangs? Since, i'd imagine they was the number one fear factor in Kirkwall at the time. Is he/she going to send templars after them? That isn't any different then what Meredith was doing, and she was doing it quite ruthlessly.

What is he or she going to do about the Mage Underground? Tell them that they will treat the mages in the Circle better, and then kindly tell them to leave the Gallows alone? If they tell them that, all you did what show them you aren't nearly and ruthless as Meredith was.

You have a bunch of mages that aren't afraid to attack and raid the Gallows. Add to that, their mentality that mages should be free, and them knowing you are alot more softer than Meredith in punishments.

What you get from that is..... Even more attacks on the Gallows to free the mages!

Which leads too...... Even more angry aposates on the streets of Kirkwal, and some of them might even resort to blood magic!

And then... That leads to even more fear on the streets!

Which leads too..... A tougher crackdown by the templars in the search from the escaped mages!

Which leads too.... even more angry mages that have a higher chance to resort to blood magic because of the templars!

And the cycle begins anew!

nice speculation their mate.

Oh BTW lynata if you believe your own theory so much why dont you go live in a police state. Since every person can be corrupted it means you as well.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 13 avril 2012 - 07:00 .

[GavrielKay]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?

Do you find it as interesting as I do, that Justice (long before he merges with Anders and possibly becomes Vengeance) pushes for freeing the mages?  It's funny to me that BioWare thinks they are creating a gray area around mage freedom when their own incarnation of "Justice" advocates for mage freedom.

[Lynata]

DKJaigen wrote...
Oh BTW lynata if you believe your own theory so much why dont you go live in a police state. Since every person can be corrupted it means you as well.

Fortunately, less power means less corruption - or at least a lesser threat even if people give in.

I don't think there is any state on this world that doesn't isolate citizens believed to be a threat, by the way. If people are infected with a dangerous disease or have some mental disorder rendering them a risk, they are generally separated regardless of whether they've actually harmed anyone or not. Is it different where you live?

Modifié par Lynata, 13 avril 2012 - 07:37 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]GavrielKay wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else? [/quote]

Do you find it as interesting as I do, that Justice (long before he merges with Anders and possibly becomes Vengeance) pushes for freeing the mages?  It's funny to me that BioWare thinks they are creating a gray area around mage freedom when their own incarnation of "Justice" advocates for mage freedom. [/quote]

I always liked that aspect of Justice in Amaranthine, and I really wish my Surana Warden could have discussed the issue with him. I always thought that it was very strange that my Hero of Ferelden asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence, but no one ever commented on it - not Anders, not Justice, not even Finn.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Addressing basic information, like the Rivain seers allowing spirits into them, or the Dalish claims about the Exalted March on the Dales, is quite a different thing than addressing that one society is inferior to another.[/quote]

Missing the point. Or deliberately trying to twist my words. [/quote]

I wasn't trying to claim that you said one society was inferior to another, that's simply how the Magister's words came across to me.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If I was addressing how powerful a Circle mage was in comparison to a mage from the Avvar or the Chasind, you would have a point, but I'm addressing the basic fact that the Avvar and the Chasind aren't discriminating mages like the people living in Andrastian society are.[/quote]

Right. How dangerous a mage is totally has -nothing- to do with how much they are feared by people. [/quote]

Considering that the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Rivaini deal with abominations, and don't automatically hate or imprison mages simply for being mages, perhaps the Andrastian societies are different because the dominant religion is advocating that mages are "cursed," which is why templars have "dominion over mages by divine right," as Cullen points out to Hawke.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Not with the Andrastian Chantry preaching that magic is a "curse," of course.[/quote]

Not with Andrastian and Tevinter nations being dog-eat-dog cultures, rather. But go ahead and deny that things like greed, envy and abuse are way more prominent there than in communal societies. I'd say it's delusional, but as I said, we can only agree to disagree. [/quote]

Considering that Lanaya won the role of First over others who struggled to attain that right, isn't that reason for envy? Isn't that room for the other elven mages who vied for the position to abuse their abilities? I don't see how you claim that these other cultures can't face the same temptations. Aneirin could have wanted to hurt the templars who tried to murder him for running away, but instead he became a healer among the Dalish. Simply because a mage is free doesn't mean that he is going to become a Tevinter Magister.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except mages are imprisoned in Circle Towers because mages peacefully protested their lack of rights centuries ago, as we can read in the "History of the Circle" codex. Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral as a result.[/quote]

I think you're missing the bit that mages were still imprisoned in the cathedral back then. The Circles are an improvement - as is the fact that the mages were allowed to do more than just light up enchanted glowlamps like they did at first. [/quote]

The entry doesn't claim that mages were imprisoned in the cathedral, it reads that mages barracaded themselves in the cathedral.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Not safer for mages like [...][/quote]

Safer for the hundreds of thousands of innocent people you are willing to cast aside because you care more for a few hundred mages, out of whom some may face the same abuse as other common folk in Thedas. [/quote]

Enslaving and oppressing countless men, women, and children across the continent isn't protecting anyone, it's simply setting the seeds for revolution, as we've seen from Aldenon the Great and centuries later with Anders and a pro-mage Hawke (who Anders says should lead the mage rebellion).

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That short story doesn't really make much sense [...][/quote]

Ahh, another claim of "this doesn't make sense so it's not canon for me". Got it. [/quote]

You edited out the reasons I thought it didn't make much sense - from the cannibalism that is never addressed in Dragon Age II to the fact that Anders doesn't get hurt by weapons in the short story, which is disproven in Dragon Age II as Anders can be killed by weapons. I also explained the issue with how a templar would even enter the Wardens under a pro-mage Hero of Ferelden serving as Warden-Commander, as well as why the templars would even care that much about a single runaway mage. Especially in the wake of Rylock trying to murder the Warden-Commander and Anders. If you have explanations for these issues, feel free to provide them.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

She becomes a very prominent member of the Circles of Magi, so it could be the same as how Alistair can become King in Origins. The Anderfel Wardens clearly value the idea of Wardens gaining authority and power outside of the time during a Blight, as Mistress Woolsey explains to the Warden-Commander at Amaranthine.[/quote]

The Wardens also value their neutrality even more. I daresay Fiona's personal ambitions will put the order in a tight spot - the Grey Wardens will either be forced to side with or publicly denounce her. [/quote]

You seem to be ignoring the entire premise of Awakening. The First Warden wanted the Hero of Ferelden/Warden-Commander to succeed as Arl of Amaranthine because it would set a precedent, as Mistress Woolsey explains.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If The Warden survives: the Dwarven Noble is made Paragon and given his (or her) own House. The City Elf Warden can become the first elven Bann of the Alienage. Any Hero of Ferelden can become Teyrn of Gwaren. It's also noted for The Warden who romanced Leliana in Awakening.[/quote]

Yeah, but they wouldn't leave the Order. [/quote]

If the Hero of Ferelden is serving as the Paragon in Orzammar, the Bann of the Alienage, or the Teyrn in Gwaren, then they aren't acting as a Grey Warden fighting the darkspawn. Alistair is already an example of a Grey Warden who can leave the order to become King of Ferelden.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Not everyone shares your opinion [...][/quote]

Nope. But the vast majority does. [/quote]

Because of religious indocturination about how vile magic and mages are, which is how the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars kept their dominance over mages for nearly a millennia. Over the same Circle mages who were directly responsible for helping stop every single Blight that threatened Thedas, as well as being the "greatest asset" against the Qunari and their advanced technology.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

What are you talking about? In Awakening, Anders openly disagreed with the idea of the Circles of Magi trying to break free from the Chantry when Wynne initially brings the issue up, and it's The Warden who can disagree with her. Justice is the one who tries to push Anders to give a damn about his people in Amaranthine:[/quote]

... so? Weren't you discussing the DA2-Anders? Because the Anders in Awakening also thought that he wanted to live in Tevinter because it's totally cool there.[/quote]

Anders in Awakening went through character development, and he didn't support the Chantry controlled Circles trying to break free from the Chantry when Wynne addressed the issue. The only character who can oppose Wynne's proposal to keep the Circles with the Chantry is the Warden-Commander.

[GavrielKay]

Lynata wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Oh BTW lynata if you believe your own theory so much why dont you go live in a police state. Since every person can be corrupted it means you as well.

Fortunately, less power means less corruption - or at least a lesser threat even if people give in.

I don't think there is any state on this world that doesn't isolate citizens believed to be a threat, by the way. If people are infected with a dangerous disease or have some mental disorder rendering them a risk, they are generally separated regardless of whether they've actually harmed anyone or not. Is it different where you live?

I don't know of any states that quarantine people because they might get sick.  Being susceptible to possession is NOT the same as being possessed.

Your mindset appears to be that saving "hundreds of thousands" of people from maybe getting hurt justifies stealing the freedom from thousands of other people.  The trouble is, increased risk is not the same as guaranteed doom.  So you're talking about actually stealing some people's lives in order to maybe save some others.

Yes, some people would be hurt by mages were all mages (who hadn't already committed a crime) free.  Some people are hurt by mages now.

The question is, why are you so convinced that things would be so drastically worse if mages weren't locked up?

Connor could have been sent away for training by a mother proud to have a mage son.  Uldred would have had no reason to fight.  Not having mages concentrated in circles would prevent weakening the veil in those places.  Meredith's parents could have sent their daughter away for training, rather than hide her.  So much of what we see in the game is either caused by, or is impossible to prevent by having the circle system. 

Unless you want to advocate locking all children up until their 20th birthday just in case they turn out to be mages, then there is no "guaranteed" protection.  The Chantry's fear mongering makes it worse, not better.

edit: spelling

Modifié par GavrielKay, 13 avril 2012 - 08:42 .

[Lynata]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Rivaini deal with abominations, and don't automatically hate or imprison mages simply for being mages, perhaps the Andrastian societies are different because the dominant religion is advocating that mages are "cursed," which is why templars have "dominion over mages by divine right," as Cullen points out to Hawke.[/quote]Or perhaps you just don't know how exactly Avvar and Chasind and Rivaini societies deal with corrupted mages or what effect they have upon their various communities.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that Lanaya won the role of First over others who struggled to attain that right, isn't that reason for envy? Isn't that room for the other elven mages who vied for the position to abuse their abilities?[/quote]Apparently not in Dalish society. Like it or not, they have a different way of thinking.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The entry doesn't claim that mages were imprisoned in the cathedral, it reads that mages barracaded themselves in the cathedral.[/quote]Yet given the mages' reaction to switching to the Circles, that very much seems to be the case. Obviously, the mages thought they'd have it better there than in the cathedral.

"The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history."

So yeah, it does sound like an improvement.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Enslaving and oppressing countless men, women, and children across the continent isn't protecting anyone, it's simply setting the seeds for revolution, as we've seen from Aldenon the Great and centuries later with Anders and a pro-mage Hawke (who Anders says should lead the mage rebellion).[/quote]Letting mages run free to practice their abilities as they themselves see fit is obviously not a better alternative. Given the many centuries the peace between mages and "mundanes" was kept, I do believe this says a lot about the general principle.

And regardless of how often you repeat it for the sake of dramatizing the situation, the "mages are slaves" bit doesn't become any more true.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You edited out the reasons I thought it didn't make much sense - from the cannibalism that is never addressed in Dragon Age II to the fact that Anders doesn't get hurt by weapons in the short story, which is disproven in Dragon Age II as Anders can be killed by weapons.[/quote]Because it doesn't matter why you believe it doesn't make sense, not to mention that I'd actually have to invest time into reading the story rather than just looking up a synopsis. There's a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense in DA2 as well, yet once we start picking it apart we have literally no common ground to debate upon left. So for the sake of discussions such as these, either you accept it all - including the bits that are contradictory to your personal opinion - or you'll have to live with the stigma of a cherrypicker.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You seem to be ignoring the entire premise of Awakening. The First Warden wanted the Hero of Ferelden/Warden-Commander to succeed as Arl of Amaranthine because it would set a precedent, as Mistress Woolsey explains.[/quote]Not so much ignoring, only recognizing it is a different situation. As long as Amaranthine and its nobility wouldn't be drawn into a conflict with another entity the Wardens are neutral to, there is no issue. Fiona's personal ambitions are a more difficult topic.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
If the Hero of Ferelden is serving as the Paragon in Orzammar, the Bann of the Alienage, or the Teyrn in Gwaren, then they aren't acting as a Grey Warden fighting the darkspawn. Alistair is already an example of a Grey Warden who can leave the order to become King of Ferelden.[/quote]Grey Wardens are Grey Wardens, regardless of what they do when not fighting darkspawn. Alistair isn't the first king who was a member of the order, and neither was a dwarven noble who becomes a Paragon. Coincidentally, a Paragon - Moroc the Maul - was one of the very first Grey Wardens ever.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Because of religious indocturination about how vile magic and mages are, which is how the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars kept their dominance over mages for nearly a millennia.[/quote]And then we have the "inconvenient" fact that said indoctrination is a direct result of demon cults and blood mages running rampant in the time between Tevinter's surrender and the official founding of the Chantry.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders in Awakening went through character development, and he didn't support the Chantry controlled Circles trying to break free from the Chantry when Wynne addressed the issue. The only character who can oppose Wynne's proposal to keep the Circles with the Chantry is the Warden-Commander.[/quote]Not addressing the point - but that may be because we've come pretty far off-topic from the original question (Anders' supposed feelings on equality).


[quote]GavrielKay wrote...
I don't know of any states that quarantine people because they might get sick.  Being susceptible to possession is NOT the same as being possessed.[/quote]False analogy. Might infect others, not just might get sick themselves. And yes, this happens.

[quote]GavrielKay wrote... 
The question is, why are you so convinced that things would be so drastically worse if mages weren't locked up?[/quote]Personal analysis of the disadvantages / dangers associated with magic as explained throughout the various sources, including demonic possession (voluntary or involuntary) and the temptation for abuse associated with magical ability when living in a society where said temptation is commonplace.

Hell, if I'd have an ability to control other people's minds, I'd probably do it. I think most people would.

Modifié par Lynata, 13 avril 2012 - 09:00 .

[GavrielKay]

Lynata wrote...
Yet given the mages' reaction to switching to the Circles, that very much seems to be the case. Obviously, the mages thought they'd have it better there than in the cathedral.

As I recall, the promise was that mages could freely learn and practice magic if they were willing to isolate themselves.  I don't think that's quite how I would describe a systematic denigrading of mages, kidnapping children and having religous zealots preventing them from having families.

False analogy. Might infect others, not just might get sick themselves. And yes, this happens.

Infect others?  If "might get sick" isn't a good analogy, then "might infect others" isn't either.  The idea of a mage being always vulnerable to demon possession is more like saying someone could catch the plague just walking down the street, so you'd better keep them locked up all the time.  Even Typhoid Mary was given several chances to live a normal life if only she'd quit working as a cook.  Only when she refused several times to stay away from kitchens did they finally lock her up.

GavrielKay wrote... 
The question is, why are you so convinced that things would be so drastically worse if mages weren't locked up?

Personal analysis of the disadvantages / dangers associated with magic as explained throughout the various sources, including demonic possession (voluntary or involuntary) and the temptation for abuse associated with magical ability when living in a society where said temptation is commonplace.

Hell, if I'd have an ability to control other people's minds, I'd probably do it. I think most people would.

Um, geez.  I wouldn't do it, and I'd think most other folks wouldn't either.  Perhaps that's the problem, we see our own temptations in other people?

Modifié par GavrielKay, 13 avril 2012 - 09:19 .

[DKJaigen]

Lynata wrote...

Fortunately, less power means less corruption - or at least a lesser threat even if people give in.

Such naivety. Power can never be lessend it only shifts. And less power can mean enslavement anarchy and untold human suffering. And trust me i know because im a police officer. If we didnt have the power to deal with the crimanal elements within our society the people would suffer. Less power for us means more power for criminals and that means more rapes murders , and theft. And absolute power corrupts but if you balance power and divide it then it will not corrupt.

And thats why i find the templars such a great threat. They are shifting power to the tevinter imperium , qunari and darkspawn. Without mages Thedas will not last. 

I don't think there is any state on this world that doesn't isolate citizens believed to be a threat, by the way. If people are infected with a dangerous disease or have some mental disorder rendering them a risk, they are generally separated regardless of whether they've actually harmed anyone or not. Is it different where you live?

Who cares? you can wield a knife and kill someone. What do i have as an assurance that you will not kill someone Lynata? If you cannot provide an answer then i fear i have to strip your freedom. I will lock you in an isolation cell and i will tell you when you can eat , work or other activities because i cannot be sure you will not grab that knife.

[Spinel_]

Lynata wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Oh BTW lynata if you believe your own theory so much why dont you go live in a police state. Since every person can be corrupted it means you as well.

Fortunately, less power means less corruption - or at least a lesser threat even if people give in.

I don't think there is any state on this world that doesn't isolate citizens believed to be a threat, by the way. If people are infected with a dangerous disease or have some mental disorder rendering them a risk, they are generally separated regardless of whether they've actually harmed anyone or not. Is it different where you live?

It differs from state to state in the US, but under California law (I'm not going to dig through 49 other state's laws on this because they don't apply to me, but look yourself if you're interested), basically an individual can only be involuntarily committed into a mental institution if, as a result of a mental disorder, they are either in immediate danger of doing harm to themselves or others or are gravely disabled.  The involuntary commitment only lasts 72 hours where, after the 72 hours, they are then reevaluated.  If their situation is no longer immediate, they can be released or stay voluntarily.  If the individual has attempted or threatened to take their life during that time, they will remain an additional 14 days.  If sufficient evidence is found, due to a mental disorder, that the individual is a danger to others, the person in charge of the facility can petition the court to require no more than an additional 180 days of treatment, and during that time, the individual has the right to an attorney and a trial.  Simply having a diagnosis of, for example, schizophrenia does not necessarily cause an individual to be in immediate danger of harming themselves or others or be and thus warrant involuntary commitment, even if it were the case that people with that diagnosis were more at risk of being in any of those situations than people who have no prior diagnosis of a mental disorder.  That would be a violation of their civil liberties.

Modifié par Spinel_, 14 avril 2012 - 01:59 .

[dragonflight288]

I myself have once been in a mental institution as a patient (only for a day of observation, but I've experienced it) I've been in one of those the by five foot white rooms for isolation (mainly because I lost a bet, but I experienced what that's like mentally)

When someone has a history of proving they are dangerous to themselves and those around them, should it be forced upon them. But when you are forcing conditions on an entire section of the population because of what they might do, I cannot accept such a system. At all. It messes with your head. It messes with your emotions.

The circle as it works now, does nothing to keep people from being safe. There are still apostates, hedge mages, all of whom fear the templars coming for them and would go to desperate measures to stay free. And at the same time you have a large number of bitter mages who want the basic right to have families without fear of their child being taken away and being told all its life that they're cursed.

[Rinshikai]

Is this discussion over? I was looking forward to hearing some more good points from both sides.

[keesio74]

ok i'll put in my 2 cents:

How can anyone support full freedom of mages after learning about the Tevinter Imperium?

Ok, maybe that is not fair but Tevinter is the one nation where mages fully free and in control... it it sounds like a f**ked up place.

Also with almost every mage in DA2 on the edge of going blood magic and turning abomination.. I can see why Templars are needed.

[Rinshikai]

I think that some of us are not realizing that the reason there are so many blood mages in Kirkwall was more for game play rather then Plot. I believe that either David or Mike said that one thing that they wanted to do was to have more moderate Mages and Templars, but were not able to do this in time. I know that this is off topic but I just wanted to point this out.

[Urzon]

I try not to think of the Tevinter Imperium as a single idea, that being Mage Freedom. I try and think of it as just another human society with a completly different culture. That culture being where slavery is promoted, and where the Might Makes Right mentality is in full force.

Mages of course, being born with magic, were born with a natural advantage over the non-magical citizens. The culture of Tevinter promotes the idea that you can take what you want, as long as you have the power to do so. So, it was only a matter of time before mages started rising to the top and taking over postions of power. Once getting there, they started changing the laws to suit their own needs. Just like any other human would do.

I would say it is just like the nobility of the different countries. Their ancestors used their power to gather large armies to conquer the lands around them. When they finally succeded, they wrote the laws saying only their blood would rule the land. The King/Queen would then start changing the laws to suit their own needs. Raise or lower taxes if they needed money, taking so much of a farmer's harvest because it was grown on their land, and sending the lower classes to war to fight their battles.

The difference being that the Magister's power is alot more easier to see, since it's physical... well magical. The point being that you can actually see, and it can frighten you and force you to obey. The nobility's power on the only hand is alot more subtle. It is the decades/centuries of peer pressure and history saying that their word is law, simply because of their blood. People don't question it because that is what their were told when they were young by their parents, and their parent's parents told them the same thing as well.

Modifié par Urzon, 18 avril 2012 - 05:04 .

[chaosomegas]

first i support no one group. i support the people and having Exalted March on kirkwall doesn't help people or mages even my mage help templars restore the peace.

[LobselVith8]

keesio74 wrote...

How can anyone support full freedom of mages after learning about the Tevinter Imperium?

Following that logic, the Dalish clans that are governed by elven mages must be exactly like the Tevinter Imperium, because the mages aren't controlled by the templars or the Chantey. As well as the shamans and the free mages among the Avvar tribes and the Chasind Wilders. Not to mention the seers and witches in the Kingdom of Rivain. There are also the Grey Warden mages, who are not beholden to the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars.

keesio74 wrote...

Also with almost every mage in DA2 on the edge of going blood magic and turning abomination.. I can see why the Templars are needed.

I didn't realize Hawke had met the hundreds of men, women, and children in the Gallows. I thought he primarily dealt with criminals. I guess all dwarves need to be killed because they must be members of the carta, since almost every dwarf we encounter is a criminal member of the cart a trying to kill our protagonist.

[TEWR]

keesio74 wrote...

How can anyone support full freedom of mages after learning about the Tevinter Imperium?

I haven't seen anyone say that the mages should be granted full freedom with absolutely no oversight whatsoever.

[DKJaigen]

keesio74 wrote...

ok i'll put in my 2 cents:

How can anyone support full freedom of mages after learning about the Tevinter Imperium?

Ok, maybe that is not fair but Tevinter is the one nation where mages fully free and in control... it it sounds like a f**ked up place.

Also with almost every mage in DA2 on the edge of going blood magic and turning abomination.. I can see why Templars are needed.

The tevinter mages are just like everywhere else a minority. So who gave the mages power? The nobility, the military and  he merchants. Since i hear nothing about any resistance to their rule its obvious to me that the normal humans support the actions of the mages. The tevinter imperium is purely a cultural problem as the common people are as much to blame as the mages are.

[Rinshikai]

Doesn't Fenris talk about slave revolts happening all the time DKJaigen?

Modifié par Rinshikai, 18 avril 2012 - 09:02 .

[DKJaigen]

Rinshikai wrote...

Doesn't Fenris talk about slave revolts happening all the time DKJaigen?

Yeah and the entire society consist out of slaves and mages right .