1194 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkrider296]

Right on KainD. Don't call a Mage a murderer if he/she decides to free themselves from their Templar jailers.

[Darkrider296]

Confront my original point people. The CURRENT circle in Kirkwall is evil. Plain and simple. I saw gut wrenching things that my Hawke can not ignore or walk away from. After witnessing an Elf call to his lover only to hear her blank words, is that the fault of the mage? Or are you with the Templars who are only too happy to give thirty lashes for JUST SPEAKING to people. The supporters keep mentioning isolated incidents as justifications while they ignore the crimes going on in the Gallows on a daily basis. "I'm sorry for being the way I was born Mr Templar please whip me some more". What a great place the Templars run eh folks

[KainD]

Darkrider296 wrote...

Confront my original point people. The CURRENT circle in Kirkwall is evil.

There is no current circle in Kirkwall, only the circle of the past. Anders made sure of that. 

[Darkrider296]

good point, wrong wording lol. VIVA LA REVOLUTION

[Realmzmaster]

Darkrider296 wrote...

But what other method will free the mages? I would hope in the war that innocents would be avoided. I can imagine that once the war has truly started the fighting will mainly be done between Chantry supporters and Mages. Some causes are worth fighting for. Why is that a scary concept to people. Mages who are PEOPLE that can LEARN to CHANNEL (Speaking to you DeathScepter) their power should be allowed to use their powers to help for the better. Yes the good out weighs the bad in my eyes. Most mages don't get a chance to help out. At best if they've pleased their jailers enough they can be given escorts for their outside travels. Still not true freedom. For every good mage you keep locked away your denying the world another Malcom Hawke or Wynne. People who could be actively helping in society every day.

The fighting will not be done just between Chantry supporters and mages. Wars do not work that way. Do you really think an arl or lord is going to allow the war to rage on his/her lands unchecked hurting the people he/she is sworn to protect? No he/she will send out his/her warriors to defend the land  even if that means taking out mages and templars alike. The sheer amount of collateral damage will make the lords and ladys act. The war will not be contained to just two sides.

[Darkrider296]

You don't understand I see the current situation as terrible to allow it to continue. When the British government declared war on the Germans in WW2 they knew that much of their population would die. But guess what they knew they were doing the right thing. Yes people die in wars, but sometimes the cause is justified. I don't have the stomach to help those SS like Templars that get their authority from some god in the sky. The moment we show respect to people like that, the more harm and abuse will follow. We need to stand together against bullies and evil people in general, no more scape goats. Mages can be dangerous but so can a man who chooses to pick up a knife and go on a stabbing spree. Heres one more question you Templar supporters can be all high mighty but how would you feel if you were a mage or part of a mage family and you saw ur self and/or parents/siblings being dragged away to never be seen again. Keep that image in hear head. Imagine the screams.

[KainD]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The fighting will not be done just between Chantry supporters and mages. Wars do not work that way. Do you really think an arl or lord is going to allow the war to rage on his/her lands unchecked hurting the people he/she is sworn to protect? No he/she will send out his/her warriors to defend the land  even if that means taking out mages and templars alike. The sheer amount of collateral damage will make the lords and ladys act. The war will not be contained to just two sides.

There are no innocents in this war. The common folk supported the system, the common soldier will follow the templars once the mages brake free, the common folk also worship the chantry, and the chantry will support the templars saying that all mages are possesed or something. 

There is no pleasant way all of that is going to end. Mages will be outnumbered if they don't get decent support, and the best bet is to head for tevinter and unite. I think Tevinter will forget about their political games for a while, and fill their ranks with huge amount of trained mages from the broken circles, which will help them drive the qunari back. Then there will be an inavitable war between Tevinter and the other nations, a war between templars/chantry and mages/"corrupted" chantry ( if Tevinter won't overthrow the chantry at all with such a large amount of mages. 

Everything will end in either fall of Tevinter, or with Tevinter making a huge empire where mages rule supreme.

If the empire falls mages get even worse treatment in the future. If the empire wins everyone is a slave to the mages.

Modifié par KainD, 24 mars 2012 - 09:48 .

[Realmzmaster]

KainD wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The fighting will not be done just between Chantry supporters and mages. Wars do not work that way. Do you really think an arl or lord is going to allow the war to rage on his/her lands unchecked hurting the people he/she is sworn to protect? No he/she will send out his/her warriors to defend the land  even if that means taking out mages and templars alike. The sheer amount of collateral damage will make the lords and ladys act. The war will not be contained to just two sides.

There are no innocents in this war. The common folk supported the system, the common soldier will follow the templars once the mages brake free, the common folk also worship the chantry, and the chantry will support the templars saying that all mages are possesed or something. 

There is no pleasant way all of that is going to end. Mages will be outnumbered if they don't get decent support, and the best bet is to head for tevinter and unite. I think Tevinter will forget about their political games for a while, and fill their ranks with huge amount of trained mages from the broken circles, which will help them drive the qunari back. Then there will be an inavitable war between Tevinter and the other nations, a war between templars/chantry and mages/"corrupted" chantry ( if Tevinter won't overthrow the chantry at all with such a large amount of mages. 

Everything will end in either fall of Tevinter, or with Tevinter making a huge empire where mages rule supreme.

If the empire falls mages get even worse treatment in the future. If the empire wins everyone is a slave to the mages.

You forget that Tevinter has it own Chantry. The mages simply run it. The mages still believe in the Maker. They interpret his will differently. So Tevinter would not destroy the Chantry. Also you are assuming the Tevinter mages would want to help the other mages who would be seen as competition. Far better to allow the two fractions to destroy each other and devestate the land. Now that would leave the land open for either Tevinter or the Qunari or both.

[KainD]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You forget that Tevinter has it own Chantry. The mages simply run it. The mages still believe in the Maker. They interpret his will differently. So Tevinter would not destroy the Chantry. Also you are assuming the Tevinter mages would want to help the other mages who would be seen as competition. Far better to allow the two fractions to destroy each other and devestate the land. Now that would leave the land open for either Tevinter or the Qunari or both.

Sure, their chantry makes them a LOT more free though. And no I don't think they would want to help other mages, I think they would want to help themselves to pushing back qunari and invading the realms with a fresh big trained mage numbers, works a lot better. Nothing will really change if Tevinter won't help the mages, on their own they will be put down by superior numbers without weakenning the nations enough. That's how I see it anyway.

Modifié par KainD, 24 mars 2012 - 11:40 .

[Always Alice]

I don't think many (if any) "templar supporters" on this forum agree with how the templars handled the situation in Kirkwall. What it comes down to is that some see the presence of templars as necessary for the safety of the rest of Thedas, while others would rather see mages live without restraints.

Darkrider296 wrote...

That was the case of one mad man. Secondly much of the Circle sadly turned to blood magic out of circumstance not because of character prolems (although i bet some were just jerks). Evil is to be found in all groups that does not mean that all should suffer because of the actions of some

Exactly! Which is why I can never fully support Anders' actions at the end of the game

[Dave of Canada]

Always Alice wrote...

I don't think many (if any) "templar supporters" on this forum agree with how the templars handled the situation in Kirkwall.

I don't agree with how Kirkwall was handled.

It should've happened sooner.

[Hurbster]

I'd be more supportive of the mages if 95% of them didn't go into blood mage mode as soon as they stubbed their toe.

And zombie mom and Orsino.

'Hey Orsino - we just kicked Templar ass !!'

'In that case i have no option but to kill you all with blood magic.'

'Er, excuse me ?'

[Darkrider296]

Thats a massive exaggeration your making Hurbster. Yes the game shows a lot of blood mages but also shows a lot of evil Templars and evil dwarfs. Gaider even admitted that a lot of evil mages were put in soley for gameplay reasons. Of course you don't see all of the reasonable good mages, their living their lives else where away from Hawke. Even then I still say that most mages sadly turn to blood magic out of desperation and abuse. The stigma breaks down their minds leaving them open to the manipulation of demons. But still the thing im asking is how can your Hawke find the moral gumption to stand with the Templars when you see the grisly things done in the Gallows.Don't those abuses deserve justice? What of Tranquility? Is that not an inherently immoral tool? Yes many of the mages are stupid but what about the Mages who never asked for the fate loaded on to them? I can't find it in my self to kill a person for being born the way they are. Especially when theirs great potential to be found in their powers. An evil mage CAN do a great deal of damage but if we have good mages in the same vain as Malcom Hawke helping society i can see a better world emerging. All races unite to end racism and ignorance in Thedas. No more toleration of hatred to keep the peace. We need more people like Anders standing up to the bullies of Thedas. Varric and Aveline have good intentions by wanting to keep the peace but that peace is not worth keeping in my eyes. Thedas is in need of positive social change

[Lazy Jer]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't agree with how Kirkwall was handled.

It should've happened sooner.

Does that mean you don't agree with how the Kirkwall Circle was handled, or that you agree with how just not when?

[Dave of Canada]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Does that mean you don't agree with how the Kirkwall Circle was handled, or that you agree with how just not when?

Both.

It was handled poorly, the corruption was allowed to fester and by the time the dog was put down it already infected the litter.

[Darkrider296]

Dave you are one piece of work lol. I'd hate to meet your Hawke.

[Always Alice]

Darkrider296 wrote...

An evil mage CAN do a great deal of damage but if we have good mages in the same vain as Malcom Hawke helping society i can see a better world emerging. All races unite to end racism and ignorance in Thedas. No more toleration of hatred to keep the peace. We need more people like Anders standing up to the bullies of Thedas. Varric and Aveline have good intentions by wanting to keep the peace but that peace is not worth keeping in my eyes. Thedas is in need of positive social change

This idealism is well and good, but who are going to be the ones happy with the outcome besides mages? You make it seem that if the Chantry suddenly loses all power then mages and non-mages alike will frolic into the sunset holding hands. It doesn't work that way. The common citizen of Thedas fears magic, and for good reason. It's capable of many wonderful things, but many horrible things as well. This fear is not always the result of Chantry doctrine, but also from personal experiences where so-and-so's child ended up lighting their farm on fire thus ruining their business or something along those lines. And I'm sorry, but "positive social change" does not start by blowing up a building in a highly-populated area of town. If anything, this will make people distrust mages even more. And the Chantry is not the sole institution that gets in the way of this magical utopia of equality and tolerance. Do you think the dwarves really give one ****, let alone two, about tolerance? What about the Dalish elves? What about the friggin' QUNARI? People are going to find something to gripe about; that's just human nature.

So no, I would not want people like Anders "standing up to bullies" if "standing up" results in terrorism and the slaughter of countless citizens, mage and non-mage alike.

Modifié par Always Alice, 25 mars 2012 - 03:47 .

[Darkrider296]

I think he only did that particular terrorist action to ignite the spark of the war not for it to be a major frequent tactic. Ideologies will have to be spread through the war. There will be guerrilla partisan like soldiers fighting the Chantry. My cannon Hawke who stands by Ander's side at the end would encourage free mages to help the common folk see that their not inherently evil crazy people to be feared. Yes it won't be entirely peaceful but its a just war in my eyes. The Elfs would also be encouraged to leave their Alienages for Anders does say earlier in the game that the Elfs should also stand by the mages, they've been wronged too. I can imagine King Alistair giving support to my Hawke. Also in my canon story my Hawke and Warden are related (both mages) so big positive #$% would go down in regards to the revolution. Keep in mind this is my story and other Hawkes and Wardens can make so many variable decisions that change what impact they make on the world. Anders would be the leader of this revolution. The warden would give tactile and strategic advise. Hawke would also be a major figure in the warfare and would be a co-leader to Anders. Alistair would of course provide support as well (his support in the Mage cause is only inevitable thanks to the ire hes inspired in the eyes of the Chantry, as he mentions in Act III)

[Always Alice]

Darkrider296 wrote...

I think he only did that particular terrorist action to ignite the spark of the war not for it to be a major frequent tactic.

I hope you're right, but if you spare him and then keep him with you his speech in the Gallows doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

My cannon Hawke who stands by Ander's side at the end would encourage free mages to help the common folk see that their not inherently evil crazy people to be feared.

I can't see Hawke getting any of his desired results in trying to convince people that mages aren't crazy and dangerous if he has Anders at his side, given what he did.

Yes it won't be entirely peaceful but its a just war in my eyes.

This is true. In war, there's bound to be many innocent deaths. My main objection with Anders' actions are that those particular deaths were, imo, unecessary.

The Elfs would also be encouraged to leave their Alienages for Anders does say earlier in the game that the Elfs should also stand by the mages, they've been wronged too.

Why would the elves side with the mages? Just because they've been wronged by the Chantry in the past? Elves fear magic just as much as the rest of the races. 

I can imagine King Alistair giving support to my Hawke.

I could see him supporting Hawke, and perhaps lighter restrictions on mages given his friendship with Wynne. I can't, however, see him supporting Anders at all (remember Alistair's reaction if you threaten the Mother in Lothering?).  

[Darkrider296]

There are good mages to be found in the game and there are bad ones. Alain, Fenryil, and that girl you save from Anders all turn out alright if you give them a chance. Plus even the mages that do turn to evil things it is more because of circumstance. I think that even Grace would have turned out better if she hadn't been picked on and abused. I mean apparently she was almost made tranquil while three other people she knew became like that in front of her. Not only is it a sign of Templars using that tool illegally to silence dissent once again but it is a traumatic event that would scare a person for life. Don't be afraid of sometimes pursing idealism folks. Wishy washyness only helps evil and bigotry grow. I honestly hope that all Empires in Thedas fall to make way for better governments and societies that aren't run on fear and religious bigotry. Question that Maker in the sky who never does #$@% you'll be happy you did.

[Darkrider296]

Hanz54321 wrote...

This thread . . . is becoming the work . . . of one mad man.

Bwahahahaahaaa!

Get it? One mad man? Because . . . ahhhh the fun we have.

I do like to see myself as a mad scientist sometimes WO AH HA HA AH  Thedas get ready for some good old fashioned warfare. The streets will run red with seeker and templar blood. Hawke and Anders rebal forces will hunt those fanatics like ninjas  man. Man im tired lol. I dont even care what i say at this point 

[katiebour]

DeathScepter wrote...

Without a leash, Mages are walking Weapons of Mass Destruction. That is why the Templar Order exist in the first place.

What Mages are: Several reasons that Mages are in towers.
1) Walking Weapons of Mass Destruction

So are the Grey Wardens.  So are the Templars.  So is Fenris.  So is Aveline(/punch Darkspawn!)  So is/was Loghain.  There are any number of people in-game who are Walking Weapons of Mass Destruction.  So are the everyday bandits that plunder and destroy villages.  That title isn't limited to those with mage power.  It is also implied in the books/comics that there are mages whose magical power will just about let them light a candle, and little more.  Many mages are just very slightly magically gifted but otherwise ordinary people.

2) Blood Magick is a dangerous art and more potent for abuse due to its mind control.

Not every mage is a blood mage.  Not every mercenary is a reaver.  Not every pickpocket is an assassin.  Blood magic practiced by one mage, using their own blood and no one else's, is simply a power amplifier equal to loads and loads of lyrium.  Not every blood mage even makes a deal with a demon- that part is optional and unrelated to the use of blood as a power source.

The mind control aspect is dangerous and frightening, yes.  Of course, a Knight-Commander blackmailing you, misusing her power and threatening the life of your sister and your loved ones unless you behave in a certain way (i.e. hunt down mages for her) is also frightening.  A magistrate ignoring his duty and hiding the crimes of his crazed, murderous son is also frightening.  

If you are a moral person and mage (Jedi *cough*) then you will use your powers for good and avoid their abuse.  

If you are an evil person and mage then you will join the Dark Side and use your powers for selfish ends.  And you will be hunted and killed, eventually.

3) Not all Mages are nice people, Many of them are horrible Psychopaths. Like the **** that killed Hawke's mother and several women.

Not all non-mages are nice people either.  Why, those Qunari burned down half of Kirkwall and slaughtered the Viscount for a book.  That Templar broke the law and made a good man and a Harrowed mage Tranquil, then went on to abuse and Tranquil other innocent mages.  

Being a good or bad person is unrelated to being a mage.  Being a bad person who is also a mage simply gives you new and more powerful ways to be evil, in the same way that being a bad person who is also a peerless warrior or mad scientist gives you other new and powerful ways to be evil.

The flip side of that is that being a good person who is a mage gives you new and powerful ways to be good.  The Chantry should be teaching its followers (by example) how to be better people, not locking them up based on whether or not they're mages.

4) Nice Targets for Demons due to their Weapons of Mass Destruction status.

And so were many of the Templars in the Circle Tower in Ferelden (remember the enthralled Templar and his desire demon "eek!  There are bandits at the door!  They're going to murder the children!"), and the Templar recruits in Kirkwall, and so were the Harimanns, and the little girl in Shale's village (with her demonic Kitty.)  Mages remain conscious in their sleep in the Fade, and can direct the Fade as they choose both in and out of it.  Demons are drawn to that because they also want the ability to walk outside of the Fade, to experience life in the mortal world while simultaneously controlling the flow of Fade energy.  Mages are more obvious targets than your average dreamers, but your Templars and your Harimanns are also susceptible.  EVERYONE should be taught the dangers of demons, not just mages.  EVERYONE is at risk.  And if EVERYONE (including mages) is smart, moral, and takes the appropriate precautions, then EVERYONE will be safe.

5) Many Arts are dangerous in and of themselves, and the potential for abuse outweighs the Postives.

Except when they're useful for healing, and defeating Orlesian invasions, and fighting off Qunari, oh, and killing Darkspawn.  Let's just use the mages when we want to and then throw them back in their stone prisons when we're done with them.  Never mind the fact that the reason Duncan recruits in the Mage Tower in the first place is that mages have helped to defeat every Blight since the beginning of all Blights.

Fire can burn and create a wound or it can cauterize and heal one.  The difference in how it's applied depends on the situation and the mage controlling the power.  Teach your mage to be a good person, give him support and freedom and a happy life in your community, and he will fight to the death to defend his friends, his neighbors, his family.  He will be there to heal your sick children and livestock, to cast sleep spells before setting bones, pulling teeth, and so forth.