1194 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRatPack55]

Silfren wrote...

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

I forgot to mention that while you the player knew who was in the Chantry, Hawke did not.

My Hawke was inside the Chantry plenty of times, during the day and night, either appealing to the Grand Cleric or running errands for Sebastian's fool ass, that she was plenty reassured that Anders didn't kill anyone inside but the Grand Cleric and a few templars.  People who were supporting Meredith, in other words, and who therefore didn't get to be called innocent.

I've mentioned it in another thread, and I stand by it here - I hold everyone within the ranks of the Chantry culpable for the abhorrent treatment of mages - the Grand Cleric, the Templars, the brothers and sisters, and the followers. Whoever supports this status quo by supporting the principles the Chantry stands for is guilty of supporting the abhorrent system. Radical as it may seem, in my eyes there were no innocents in the Chantry at the time of the explosion. As a side note - FFS, everyone does realize that the Templars are the Chantry's army, right?

To elaborate a bit on the Grand Cleric's role - the moment Elthina showed concern over the death of Ser Alric rather then the plans he had for the Tranquil Solution as Hawke showed her the aproppriate papers, I was ready to kick her down from the balcony she was uselessly hanging out on. Shame that wasn't an option.

Modifié par TheRatPack55, 25 avril 2012 - 08:34 .

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Anders knew that the Grand Cleric would have offered a peaceful solution. He destroyed the Chantry precisely because he did not want a peaceful solution.   The Chantry was never shown to be full of people just because Bioware limited the number of NPCs. At ant time, there may be a lot of people inside. Also, the Chantry was knows to be the biggest charity around, and would even house orphans and take in the needy. The important thing to understand is that the Chantry as an institution was multi-faceted.  I can point to all sorts of bad things that the US Government is doing around the world, but you won't see me blowing up government buildings.  If I had the time, I might take part in a protest, but not terrorism.

Modifié par Sir Pounce-a-lot, 25 avril 2012 - 08:36 .

[TheRatPack55]

^If you ever listened to Anders in Act 2 then you would have seen he wanted a peaceful solution. Elthina offered eff all - she conveniently left everything to the Maker - who may or may not exist, by the way. And as I stated earlier, I do not care how many people were in the Chantry - they were not the innocents so many people make them out to be. They were Chantry supporters, one way or the other. Charity? Apart from the mages, Darktown and it's beggars would have something untoward to say about that I'm sure.
I don't know, I just can't comprehend how anyone could exhaust the conversation options with Elthina and not end up utterly despising her. She had the spiritual power to influence the people, yet she chose to turn a blind eye to the horrors of the Circle - not surprising, since she was ultimately a part of the very institution that imposed the horrors in the first place, and that institution's interests were what she cared about. Her 'neutrality' did nothing to improve the Kirkwall society, and everything to maintain the existing circumstances. For a change for the better to be made, she had to be removed. I, personally, was overjoyed that she did - I only wished I could have played a more active role in her removal.

[Knight Commander]

Anders was a terrorist admit it or not he killed innocents and started a war there is no way it was a "justice" act. But I'll admit if he never "merged" with justice I bet he wouldn't have done this.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

I see how the game was written, but destroying the Chantry would create so much public hatred for mages that everyone would want to kill them. Yes, there were lots of poor people, but without the Chantry's charities, it'd be a lot worse (imagine destroying Goodwill).  Anders methods and willingness to commit mass murder made him a terrorist.  Looking at the real world, terrorism never furthers a cause. The terrorist always harms his cause.  McVeigh destroyed the militia movement in America.  Al Queda has created more hate for Muslims than sympathy.  Simply put: terrorism doesn't work.

As for Anders, the writers of DA2 were basically saying that within Anders, Justice had been warped into Vengeance.  What was once a good spirit and a good man were both corrupted and twisted into a 'vengeance abomination'.

[Knight Commander]

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

I see how the game was written, but destroying the Chantry would create so much public hatred for mages that everyone would want to kill them. Yes, there were lots of poor people, but without the Chantry's charities, it'd be a lot worse (imagine destroying Goodwill).  Anders methods and willingness to commit mass murder made him a terrorist.  Looking at the real world, terrorism never furthers a cause. The terrorist always harms his cause.  McVeigh destroyed the militia movement in America.  Al Queda has created more hate for Muslims than sympathy.  Simply put: terrorism doesn't work.

As for Anders, the writers of DA2 were basically saying that within Anders, Justice had been warped into Vengeance.  What was once a good spirit and a good man were both corrupted and twisted into a 'vengeance abomination'.

With what you just said this agrument about Anders is over, well done my friend.

[TheRatPack55]

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

I see how the game was written, but destroying the Chantry would create so much public hatred for mages that everyone would want to kill them. Yes, there were lots of poor people, but without the Chantry's charities, it'd be a lot worse (imagine destroying Goodwill).  Anders methods and willingness to commit mass murder made him a terrorist.  Looking at the real world, terrorism never furthers a cause. The terrorist always harms his cause.  McVeigh destroyed the militia movement in America.  Al Queda has created more hate for Muslims than sympathy.  Simply put: terrorism doesn't work.

As for Anders, the writers of DA2 were basically saying that within Anders, Justice had been warped into Vengeance.  What was once a good spirit and a good man were both corrupted and twisted into a 'vengeance abomination'.

Possibly, but all the same I do not agree with labelling Anders a terrorist in the first place, which for me renders that particular argument void. Clearly it is a point we won't ever agree on.

Aditionally, not everyone supports the Chantry, or is an Andrastian. The world of DA is much more diverse, I'm sure the mages will find more then a little support. The Dalish and Tevinter hold different beliefs, just to name a couple.

As for the Justice/Vengeance case, vengeance is a concept I can still get behind in many a case, so once again it is a question of personal views rather then some (nonexistent) ubiquitous common morality. In my opinion, justice and vengeance are often one and the same - consider capital punishment.

(Ok, goodnight, gotta sleep in my part of the world if I want to be conscious at work tomorrow.)

Modifié par TheRatPack55, 25 avril 2012 - 10:24 .

[Silfren]

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

Anders knew that the Grand Cleric would have offered a peaceful solution. He destroyed the Chantry precisely because he did not want a peaceful solution.   The Chantry was never shown to be full of people just because Bioware limited the number of NPCs. At ant time, there may be a lot of people inside. Also, the Chantry was knows to be the biggest charity around, and would even house orphans and take in the needy. The important thing to understand is that the Chantry as an institution was multi-faceted.  I can point to all sorts of bad things that the US Government is doing around the world, but you won't see me blowing up government buildings.  If I had the time, I might take part in a protest, but not terrorism.

Bah.  The Grand Cleric didn't offer solutions.  She perpetuated the status quo.  The templars held all the power, so by staying neutral Elthina effectively sided with them.  

[Rinshikai]

I have to agree with you Silfren, Elthina did next to nothing when it came to keeping the templars in line.

If I recall was she not the one the promoted Meridith to KC? If so a lot of the problems in the gallows are a result of Elthina.

[Silfren]

TheRatPack55 wrote...

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

I see how the game was written, but destroying the Chantry would create so much public hatred for mages that everyone would want to kill them. Yes, there were lots of poor people, but without the Chantry's charities, it'd be a lot worse (imagine destroying Goodwill).  Anders methods and willingness to commit mass murder made him a terrorist.  Looking at the real world, terrorism never furthers a cause. The terrorist always harms his cause.  McVeigh destroyed the militia movement in America.  Al Queda has created more hate for Muslims than sympathy.  Simply put: terrorism doesn't work.

As for Anders, the writers of DA2 were basically saying that within Anders, Justice had been warped into Vengeance.  What was once a good spirit and a good man were both corrupted and twisted into a 'vengeance abomination'.

Possibly, but all the same I do not agree with labelling Anders a terrorist in the first place, which for me renders that particular argument void. Clearly it is a point we won't ever agree on.

Aditionally, not everyone supports the Chantry, or is an Andrastian. The world of DA is much more diverse, I'm sure the mages will find more then a little support. The Dalish and Tevinter hold different beliefs, just to name a couple.

As for the Justice/Vengeance case, vengeance is a concept I can still get behind in many a case, so once again it is a question of personal views rather then some (nonexistent) ubiquitous common morality. In my opinion, justice and vengeance are often one and the same - consider capital punishment.

(Ok, goodnight, gotta sleep in my part of the world if I want to be conscious at work tomorrow.)

Absolutely.  The argument is far from over, because whether or not Anders is a terrorist is NOT cut and dried as many people would prefer to believe.  

There is violence in every great cause.  Blood has been shed to abolish slavery, gain suffrage rights, gain a nation's independence...and sometimes it's the heroes of the cause that engage in some of the violence and bloodshed.  Fundamental, societal change rarely happens peacefully or bloodlessly.

I've compared Anders with various real world personas, but I think he most closely parallels with John Brown of the American abolitionist movement.  

There's a damn good reason why Bioware gave us a cutscene in Origins of a woman saying "Andraste waged war on the Imperium, she didn't write a strongly worded letter.  She freed the slaves, gave us the Chantry.  But people died for it."  Anyone who seriously believes that neither Andraste nor her people never killed any innocent people, ever, not even once, has a seriously skewed idea of what war involves. 

Even just and necessary wars involve the slaughter of innocent people.  There's just no way around it. 

[Silfren]

Rinshikai wrote...

I have to agree with you Silfren, Elthina did next to nothing when it came to keeping the templars in line.

If I recall was she not the one the promoted Meridith to KC? If so a lot of the problems in the gallows are a result of Elthina.

I don't necessarily derive my opinion of Elthina from this, but I think that Flutiebear has some excellent insights into the character, since she apparently goes over every single bit of DA lore with the world's finest fine-toothed comb.  She has some great essays on Elthina as a politically shrewd manipulator.  Here's a link to Elthina-tagged posts if you decide you're bored.

Somewhere, she's got an interesting essay on Elthina's manipulation of Sebastian, but I've been digging and can't find it, so it's buried back a ways.

[Rinshikai]

I remember reading that, it was a good essay. Shows a different way of looking at Elthina.

The reason that I talk about Elthina that way is I was reading the Art of War by Sun Tzu, which made me look at the chantry leadership. Overall its not that good, but that is just my view.

[Silfren]

Rinshikai wrote...

I remember reading that, it was a good essay. Shows a different way of looking at Elthina.

The reason that I talk about Elthina that way is I was reading the Art of War by Sun Tzu, which made me look at the chantry leadership. Overall its not that good, but that is just my view.

It isn't good at all, no.  Sure, the Chantry does some good things, but its my view that those good things are extremely minor in comparison to the harm it does, and the cynical part of me suspects that a lot of the good is done in an attempt to re-direct people's attention from the harm it does, not out of a sense of genuine altruism. 

Nor do I think that the dissolution of the Chantry would effectively be the end of charity everywhere for all time.  This is little more than scaremongering alarmist rhetoric. 

Modifié par Silfren, 26 avril 2012 - 12:48 .

[Rinshikai]

I can agree to that.

After reading Asunder, even though Justinia appears to be trying to make a difference for the better. I feel as if she has not earned anything, be it trust of the mages, templars, chantry, or the sit of power she now sits in.

As Fiona would say "I'm sure that the Divine is a nice person" but that really doesn't count for anything unless you can show that you are able to get results. Throughout DA2 and Asunder, I believe that neither, Justinia or Elthina are able to get the results to show that their methods would work.

[Rinshikai]

I personal would not like to do this. I would rather leave Anders justification on another thread.

[Rinshikai]

Ah I see.

[5trangeCase]

I think a problem here is people treating mages like they are the same everyone else.

They are not. Not even close. They shouldn't be treated like everyone else, because they aren't like everyone else. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be given freedom, that's not relevant to the point I'm trying to make, I'm just trying to drive home the fact that they are not the same as other elves, humans and kossith.

Sten actually makes a fairly accurate description of mages "they are beasts that wear the faces of men". Mages wear the faces of men, but do not realise it is just a mask, within each one contains a rabid, unrelenting animal prepared to indiscriminately destroy all around it. For this reason, mages should not be treated the same as all others.

Do I think the persecution that occurred in the Gallows is right? No, of course not, no one in this thread does, but the Gallows are an extreme example, just like the Tevinter Circles. The mages rebel because they are not given freedom, and they believe that they are like everyone else and deserve freedom. But again, I'm not here to talk about whether they deserve freedom or not, I'm just saying that mages are not the same as everyone else, it is so blatantly obvious it's shocking that the mages, in all their wisdom, don't notice it.

[DKJaigen]

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

I see how the game was written, but destroying the Chantry would create so much public hatred for mages that everyone would want to kill them. Yes, there were lots of poor people, but without the Chantry's charities, it'd be a lot worse (imagine destroying Goodwill).  Anders methods and willingness to commit mass murder made him a terrorist.  Looking at the real world, terrorism never furthers a cause. The terrorist always harms his cause.  McVeigh destroyed the militia movement in America.  Al Queda has created more hate for Muslims than sympathy.  Simply put: terrorism doesn't work.

As for Anders, the writers of DA2 were basically saying that within Anders, Justice had been warped into Vengeance.  What was once a good spirit and a good man were both corrupted and twisted into a 'vengeance abomination'.

I beg to differ terrorism works but i do not call al Queda terrorists. i call them morons. The roman empire the mongol horde are examples that terrorism works. Mages do well to copy their tactics as it is perhaps one of the few open to them.

[DKJaigen]

5trangeCase wrote...

I think a problem here is people treating mages like they are the same everyone else.

They are not. Not even close. They shouldn't be treated like everyone else, because they aren't like everyone else. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be given freedom, that's not relevant to the point I'm trying to make, I'm just trying to drive home the fact that they are not the same as other elves, humans and kossith.

Sten actually makes a fairly accurate description of mages "they are beasts that wear the faces of men". Mages wear the faces of men, but do not realise it is just a mask, within each one contains a rabid, unrelenting animal prepared to indiscriminately destroy all around it. For this reason, mages should not be treated the same as all others.

Do I think the persecution that occurred in the Gallows is right? No, of course not, no one in this thread does, but the Gallows are an extreme example, just like the Tevinter Circles. The mages rebel because they are not given freedom, and they believe that they are like everyone else and deserve freedom. But again, I'm not here to talk about whether they deserve freedom or not, I'm just saying that mages are not the same as everyone else, it is so blatantly obvious it's shocking that the mages, in all their wisdom, don't notice it.

What a load of bull. We have our own  mages in our world they are called soldiers. Trained killers that can develop severe mental problems like PTSS  after returning home from a warzone. When they are gripped by their mental problems the damage they can do to themselves and others around them can be severe. But i dare you to say that all soldiers that are returning from a warzone should be locked up for this.

Also hillarious that you quote sten:  he killed of an entire familly because he lost his blade. Also what guarantees can you give me that you are not a danger to yourself and the others around you? or should i lock you up for the safety of the people.

[Tenshi]

TheRatPack55 wrote...

Urzon wrote...


US using the atom bomb on Japan = An act of evil to stop a war.

Anders using a bomb to blow up the Chantry = An act of evil to cause a war.

My stance here would be: Anders using a bomb to blow up the Chantry = A necessary act of relative evil to stop a holocaust.

my stance here is that you are sick ************ and  you spited on a grave of 200000 innocent people while discussing game.

to OP: i did side with templars, orsino was one of the reason hawke mother was killed.

Modifié par xxx2emo4Uxxx, 26 avril 2012 - 04:31 .

[dragonflight288]

I think a problem here is people treating mages like they are the same everyone else.

They are not. Not even close. They shouldn't be treated like everyone else, because they aren't like everyone else. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be given freedom, that's not relevant to the point I'm trying to make, I'm just trying to drive home the fact that they are not the same as other elves, humans and kossith.

Sten actually makes a fairly accurate description of mages "they are beasts that wear the faces of men". Mages wear the faces of men, but do not realise it is just a mask, within each one contains a rabid, unrelenting animal prepared to indiscriminately destroy all around it. For this reason, mages should not be treated the same as all others.

Do I think the persecution that occurred in the Gallows is right? No, of course not, no one in this thread does, but the Gallows are an extreme example, just like the Tevinter Circles. The mages rebel because they are not given freedom, and they believe that they are like everyone else and deserve freedom. But again, I'm not here to talk about whether they deserve freedom or not, I'm just saying that mages are not the same as everyone else, it is so blatantly obvious it's shocking that the mages, in all their wisdom, don't notice it.

Right. If I were to venture a guess, you are actually referring to abominations, or speaking out of a prejudice against ALL mages because of connection to the Fade. A connection all races save the dwarves have, mage or not. The Fade is a realm of dreams, and every human, elf, and kossith go there when they dream. The only thing that separates mages from the others is the capability of entering the Fade conscious and aware.

DKJaigan made a good point that every soldier runs the risk of PTSS. There's also the possibility of a father having a drink when he gets home and then murdering his whole family in a fit of drunken rage, so we should lock up every father who has alcohol in their home too! Maybe we should take the children of everyone ever born so they can be raised correctly by some government or church because parents may abuse their kids, or not raise them properly and spoil them, creating mental disorders.

That was largely sarcasm if you couldn't tell (I know it's much more difficult to read sarcasm than to hear it.)

[GavrielKay]

5trangeCase wrote...

I think a problem here is people treating mages like they are the same everyone else.

They are not. Not even close. They shouldn't be treated like everyone else, because they aren't like everyone else. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be given freedom, that's not relevant to the point I'm trying to make, I'm just trying to drive home the fact that they are not the same as other elves, humans and kossith.

Well, let's see...  they are born from mothers like everyone else, they have the same potential hopes and dreams of everyone else, the same biology as far as I can tell.  They seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses of character as everyone else.

Is "humanity" defined only as ability (or lack)?  Is "humanity" granted or revoked according to someone's perception of how safe they'd be sitting next to someone?  Dehumanizing someone because of an ability they are born with is not a good moral stance.  It is often used as a prelude to enact what would never be tolerated otherwise.

p.s.  "Humanity" used here in the literary sense...  not meant to exclude elves or qunari 

Modifié par GavrielKay, 26 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[Knight Commander]

5trangeCase wrote...

I think a problem here is people treating mages like they are the same everyone else.

They are not. Not even close. They shouldn't be treated like everyone else, because they aren't like everyone else. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be given freedom, that's not relevant to the point I'm trying to make, I'm just trying to drive home the fact that they are not the same as other elves, humans and kossith.

Sten actually makes a fairly accurate description of mages "they are beasts that wear the faces of men". Mages wear the faces of men, but do not realise it is just a mask, within each one contains a rabid, unrelenting animal prepared to indiscriminately destroy all around it. For this reason, mages should not be treated the same as all others.

Do I think the persecution that occurred in the Gallows is right? No, of course not, no one in this thread does, but the Gallows are an extreme example, just like the Tevinter Circles. The mages rebel because they are not given freedom, and they believe that they are like everyone else and deserve freedom. But again, I'm not here to talk about whether they deserve freedom or not, I'm just saying that mages are not the same as everyone else, it is so blatantly obvious it's shocking that the mages, in all their wisdom, don't notice it.

Even though it seems that everyone else thinks your wrong I think your right, you're not saying that you hate mages and agree with the Templars "harsh" rules you're just putting out facts that these people won't except.