1194 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelFinnegan]

5trangeCase wrote...

I think a problem here is people treating mages like they are the same everyone else.

They are not. Not even close. They shouldn't be treated like everyone else, because they aren't like everyone else. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be given freedom, that's not relevant to the point I'm trying to make, I'm just trying to drive home the fact that they are not the same as other elves, humans and kossith.

Sten actually makes a fairly accurate description of mages "they are beasts that wear the faces of men". Mages wear the faces of men, but do not realise it is just a mask, within each one contains a rabid, unrelenting animal prepared to indiscriminately destroy all around it. For this reason, mages should not be treated the same as all others.

Do I think the persecution that occurred in the Gallows is right? No, of course not, no one in this thread does, but the Gallows are an extreme example, just like the Tevinter Circles. The mages rebel because they are not given freedom, and they believe that they are like everyone else and deserve freedom. But again, I'm not here to talk about whether they deserve freedom or not, I'm just saying that mages are not the same as everyone else, it is so blatantly obvious it's shocking that the mages, in all their wisdom, don't notice it.

Well, assuming for the moment the mages aren't the same as everyone else, what is one to do about it? What do you think ought to be done about it?

Around that is where most of the debates revolve - that a certain section of Thedas, in whatever number, consider mages a mortal threat, and therefore would have them confined. (At least I've seen even the most diehard supporters of mages here in the forums agreeing to the notion that mages need to be trained, generally conceding the point that mages are dangerous, potentially or otherwise.) It is, I believe, more or less a natural course of action that most groups of people would take, assuming they have the sufficient power to enforce it. And it comes about I think not because there is some kind of inherent moral justification for it, but because people mainly think and work toward their own self-preservation. What is a more appropriate phrase? Peace of mind? Having the mages so confined, they can go about their daily business, without having to be eternally vigilant or fearful. What is to be realized is that the "system" really works only so long as the aggressors have stronger numbers on their hands, and to an extent because mages fear their own conditions, or until a breaking point is reached. Of course, the environment the mages are brought up in also somewhat makes them docile toward that condition. (The real issue with the system is the inertia and rigidity around the policies it builds around itself, but that's another matter left to another day.)

I believe, though, that you're generally missing the point by confining yourself to "mages are different" and not willing to commit to any argument beyond that. But I get the suspicion that you're tacitly assuming that "mages are not like everyone else, in other words they're dangerous towards others" (indeed, if the difference were merely that they are blue or red in color, in comparison to others, we'd not be having this debate), is tantamount to "mages should accept the Circle system." For the "revolt" or the "freedom movement" is merely to be free from the Circle system, is it not? You'd be hard pressed to prove this assessment however. One could make an argument that the rest of Thedas (barring mages, i.e.) could enact some preventative measures that'd counter the ill-effects that some mages could have on the rest of society; one cannot, however, make an argument that the Circle system is merely and only that.

The issue really is merely that - what is one to do about it? The Circle system has been one attempt. One that is fast becoming a failure, by the looks of things.

Finally, self-preservation works both ways. Just as the rest of Thedas think that they have some sort of inherent right to exist free of the dangers of mages, so too I'd assume at least some of the mages would think that they ought to live free of the oppression of others. There is nothing odd about the concept. I believe the difficulty you might be facing is because you've assumed the Circle system has been efficacious. That is hard to justify, in fact.

[Dave of Canada]

Quick post between projects.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Well, assuming for the moment the mages aren't the same as everyone else

There is no assuming, they aren't the same.

what is one to do about it? What do you think ought to be done about it?

Total extermination of any child born with magic (tranquility or death, choice given to the parent(s) or the mage themselves if they comply) or the circle system.

The issue really is merely that - what is one to do about it? The Circle system has been one attempt. One that is fast becoming a failure, by the looks of things.

It's worked for approximately a thousand years, it can work again once the mages are culled.

Finally, self-preservation works both ways. Just as the rest of Thedas think that they have some sort of inherent right to exist free of the dangers of mages, so too I'd assume at least some of the mages would think that they ought to live free of the oppression of others.

Then they need not complain when I slay them.

Majority over minority, lesser evil. In addition to other things which mages could cause (political mindcontrol, destroying villages alone, ect) possibly against their own will doesn't sit right.

There is nothing odd about the concept. I believe the difficulty you might be facing is because you've assumed the Circle system has been efficacious. That is hard to justify, in fact.

It's kept weak mages dead (a good thing), it's mostly self-sufficient due to tranquil workers, educates mages throughout their entire lives lessons on magic and more, allows mages to have differing goals, keeps the public safe from abominations and allows mages to live in well-off community without fear of public prejudice. I'd say that's fairly successful, it's only failure being that it failed to contain a coordinated mage break-out with Divine interfearing in the Seekers and Templar's affairs.

Which is why the Inquisition is back.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 avril 2012 - 08:37 .

[Karlone123]

The Gallows would have been no different to a medieval prison except prisons had torture chambers.

[Lazy Jer]

First of all mages are not "Beasts with the faces of men." Sten's a groovy character and all, but he wasn't right about that. They ARE human (etc.) The reason they're different is that they're humans (etc.) with the power to melt faces and that they do catch the eye of the occasional demon from across the fade. To that end the Circle, to some degree, is necessary. But clearly, so is reforming the circle system. Kirkwall Circle may have only gone rogue because it was fight or die thanks to Anders, but abuse did get to the ears of our main protagonist, (i.e. the Ser Alricks and KC Meredeths of the world). Furthermore the ease with which Uldred was able to sway people in the Ferelden Circle when all that happened, and the fact that there WAS a war subsequent to Anders' bomb shows that there are problems with the Circle that cause mages to look for another way out.

[Dave of Canada]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Furthermore the ease with which Uldred was able to sway people in the Ferelden Circle when all that happened, and the fact that there WAS a war subsequent to Anders' bomb shows that there are problems with the Circle that cause mages to look for another way out.

Uldred didn't have ease swaying people, he was going to be stopped until he and a few of his followers summoned demons and he became a Pride Abomination. The largest fraternities pre-Kirkwall were Loyalists and 
Aequitarians, who supported the Chantry until the events of Dragon Age 2 and Asunder.

Even at the end of Asunder, after Kirkwall and Lord-Seeker's events, the enchanters decided to go to war by one vote. 

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Quick post between projects.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Well, assuming for the moment the mages aren't the same as everyone else

There is no assuming, they aren't the same.

what is one to do about it? What do you think ought to be done about it?

Total extermination of any child born with magic (tranquility or death, choice given to the parent(s) or the mage themselves if they comply) or the circle system.

The issue really is merely that - what is one to do about it? The Circle system has been one attempt. One that is fast becoming a failure, by the looks of things.

It's worked for approximately a thousand years, it can work again once the mages are culled.

Finally, self-preservation works both ways. Just as the rest of Thedas think that they have some sort of inherent right to exist free of the dangers of mages, so too I'd assume at least some of the mages would think that they ought to live free of the oppression of others.

Then they need not complain when I slay them.

Majority over minority, lesser evil. In addition to other things which mages could cause (political mindcontrol, destroying villages alone, ect) possibly against their own will doesn't sit right.

There is nothing odd about the concept. I believe the difficulty you might be facing is because you've assumed the Circle system has been efficacious. That is hard to justify, in fact.

It's kept weak mages dead (a good thing), it's mostly self-sufficient due to tranquil workers, educates mages throughout their entire lives lessons on magic and more, allows mages to have differing goals, keeps the public safe from abominations and allows mages to live in well-off community without fear of public prejudice. I'd say that's fairly successful, it's only failure being that it failed to contain a coordinated mage break-out with Divine interfearing in the Seekers and Templar's affairs.

Which is why the Inquisition is back.

Dave if it was possible (otherwise the DA3 plot is killed) the only thing the mages have to do to ensure complete and total victory over the chantry is to simply head west into Urthiemiel plateau and live happily ever after. Without mages the chantry states will fall to external factions who will use magic with intelligence and sensibility common in the most dimwitted persons. So your "solution" really doesnt work

Also te circle system didnt work because of the chantry or templars but because of the mages allowed themselves to be governed that way.

[Dave of Canada]

That's why Templar exist.

[The Baconer]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
The issue really is merely that - what is one to do about it? The Circle system has been one attempt. One that is fast becoming a failure, by the looks of things.

I imagine this unfortunate series of occurrences could have been pre-emptively avoided during the reign of the Old Tevinter Empire. The magisters wallowed in the decadence of the present instead of looking toward the future, breeding mundanes like precious livestock. True, while this is the station of the mundanes by the orders of rank, the slave rebellions that led to the collapse of the Empire was inevitable.

While hindsight is indeed 20/20, I believe that if the magisters had abandoned their egotistical tendancies and instead focused on preserving Mage Blood and Mage Culture, contemporary Thedas would be spared the current civil strife that is tearing it apart. Not only that, but the land would fare better against the invasions of the Qunari beasts. This process of preservation would involve Interbreeding with mundanes on a large scale, along with the disposal of mundane-born children. This increasing concentration of magic across multiple generations, and the inhibition of pollution by mundane blood, would reverse the biological norm. Whereas mundane birth used to be the norm, it is now a rarity, an uncommon birth defect.

Unfortunately, the magisters did not think to deprive the mundanes of their sole advantage in numbers, and the mages of today pay for this mistake as the orders of rank are violated; the sheep now tend the shepherd. If these brave souls can topple the tyrannical rule that besets them and reverse the social hierarchy, as the mundanes themselves did ages ago, hopefully they learn from the errors of their forebears. It will be up to them to halt the perpetuation of mundane blood, lest Thedas continue to bear the burden of its obsoletion.

[Lazy Jer]

The Baconer wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
The issue really is merely that - what is one to do about it? The Circle system has been one attempt. One that is fast becoming a failure, by the looks of things.

I imagine this unfortunate series of occurrences could have been pre-emptively avoided during the reign of the Old Tevinter Empire. The magisters wallowed in the decadence of the present instead of looking toward the future, breeding mundanes like precious livestock. True, while this is the station of the mundanes by the orders of rank, the slave rebellions that led to the collapse of the Empire was inevitable.

While hindsight is indeed 20/20, I believe that if the magisters had abandoned their egotistical tendancies and instead focused on preserving Mage Blood and Mage Culture, contemporary Thedas would be spared the current civil strife that is tearing it apart. Not only that, but the land would fare better against the invasions of the Qunari beasts. This process of preservation would involve Interbreeding with mundanes on a large scale, along with the disposal of mundane-born children. This increasing concentration of magic across multiple generations, and the inhibition of pollution by mundane blood, would reverse the biological norm. Whereas mundane birth used to be the norm, it is now a rarity, an uncommon birth defect.

Unfortunately, the magisters did not think to deprive the mundanes of their sole advantage in numbers, and the mages of today pay for this mistake as the orders of rank are violated; the sheep now tend the shepherd. If these brave souls can topple the tyrannical rule that besets them and reverse the social hierarchy, as the mundanes themselves did ages ago, hopefully they learn from the errors of their forebears. It will be up to them to halt the perpetuation of mundane blood, lest Thedas continue to bear the burden of its obsoletion.

Riiiight.  Magneto from the X-Men had some interesting ideas along those lines.

[The Baconer]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Riiiight.  Magneto from the X-Men had some interesting ideas along those lines.

Was he wrong?

[MichaelFinnegan]

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]MichaelFinnegan wrote...
what is one to do about it? What do you think ought to be done about it?[/quote]

Total extermination of any child born with magic (tranquility or death, choice given to the parent(s) or the mage themselves if they comply) or the circle system.[/quote]
You're setting up a false dilemma. Those are by no means the only available options, but they are also options. The real question is what makes you biased toward only those two options.

[quote]
[quote]
The issue really is merely that - what is one to do about it? The Circle system has been one attempt. One that is fast becoming a failure, by the looks of things.[/quote]

It's worked for approximately a thousand years, it can work again once the mages are culled.[/quote]
I'm sure there are other systerms that have "worked" for significant lengths of time, so maybe we ought to bring those back instead. Or maybe you're merely arguing from the point of view of your character's self-preservation?

[quote]
[quote]Finally, self-preservation works both ways. Just as the rest of Thedas think that they have some sort of inherent right to exist free of the dangers of mages, so too I'd assume at least some of the mages would think that they ought to live free of the oppression of others.[/quote]

Then they need not complain when I slay them.[/quote]
Oh, they will. You're just setting up one more iteration of violence.

[quote]
Majority over minority, lesser evil. In addition to other things which mages could cause (political mindcontrol, destroying villages alone, ect) possibly against their own will doesn't sit right.[/quote]
Playing a numbers game (majority over minority), as Baconer has pointed out, there are ways for mages to enjoy the "merits" of such logic by increasing their own numbers. I'm sure you'd have no disagreements with that...

The essential thing, to reiterate, is that nobody denies the dangers that any mage might someday pose; but the debate revolves around this: given that understanding, what steps does the rest of the world takes, and how far do those steps go in merely countering those dangers, and what checks and bounds do they set up so they don't overstep their bounds The key-phrase here is "mutual benefit.".

[quote]
[quote]There is nothing odd about the concept. I believe the difficulty you might be facing is because you've assumed the Circle system has been efficacious. That is hard to justify, in fact.[/quote]

It's kept weak mages dead (a good thing), it's mostly self-sufficient due to tranquil workers, educates mages throughout their entire lives lessons on magic and more, allows mages to have differing goals, keeps the public safe from abominations and allows mages to live in well-off community without fear of public prejudice. I'd say that's fairly successful,[/quote]
It's been successful at achieving what all goal? In other words, what other things has it done which oversteps the barriers that limit its intended purpose?

[quote]
it's only failure being that it failed to contain a coordinated mage break-out with Divine interfearing in the Seekers and Templar's affairs.[/quote]
So your claim is that the Divine was merely an ardent mage supporter and didn't have other intentions in mind?

I'd have thought the very fact that the Divine could view tranquility in a different light than the Lord Seeker ought to have given one pause.

[quote]
Which is why the Inquisition is back.[/quote]
The Inquisition, or something very much like it, is back also because the Commander-in-Chief of the seeker and templar armies deems it necessary; and because his words carries weight and fear among many of his subordinates.

By no means the situation should have deteriorated the way it did at the end of Asunder. Lambert could have prevented it if he was more rational, and if he had the best interests of all in mind.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Lazy Jer wrote...

First of all mages are not "Beasts with the faces of men." Sten's a groovy character and all, but he wasn't right about that. They ARE human (etc.)

Sten is just biased by how his kindred treat their own mages. Having associated with Wynne (a thinking, talking mage, which ought to be non-existent where he comes from) he really ought to know better.

The reason they're different is that they're humans (etc.) with the power to melt faces and that they do catch the eye of the occasional demon from across the fade. To that end the Circle, to some degree, is necessary.

A point of disagreement here. I'd phrase that as the rest of the world needs to take some precautions against those dangers. I'd not conclude that the Circle, to whatever degree, is necessary. Only so long as the Circle sticks to that purpose, I'd agree with you.

But clearly, so is reforming the circle system.

That is not so easy a task. Think of the current Circle system as an intertial one, one that strongly resists change.

Kirkwall Circle may have only gone rogue because it was fight or die thanks to Anders, but abuse did get to the ears of our main protagonist, (i.e. the Ser Alricks and KC Meredeths of the world). Furthermore the ease with which Uldred was able to sway people in the Ferelden Circle when all that happened, and the fact that there WAS a war subsequent to Anders' bomb shows that there are problems with the Circle that cause mages to look for another way out.

A general tendency for mages to look for ways out of the Circle probably represents a systemic problem.

[MichaelFinnegan]

The Baconer wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
The issue really is merely that - what is one to do about it? The Circle system has been one attempt. One that is fast becoming a failure, by the looks of things.

I imagine this unfortunate series of occurrences could have been pre-emptively avoided during the reign of the Old Tevinter Empire. The magisters wallowed in the decadence of the present instead of looking toward the future, breeding mundanes like precious livestock. True, while this is the station of the mundanes by the orders of rank, the slave rebellions that led to the collapse of the Empire was inevitable.

While hindsight is indeed 20/20, I believe that if the magisters had abandoned their egotistical tendancies and instead focused on preserving Mage Blood and Mage Culture, contemporary Thedas would be spared the current civil strife that is tearing it apart. Not only that, but the land would fare better against the invasions of the Qunari beasts. This process of preservation would involve Interbreeding with mundanes on a large scale, along with the disposal of mundane-born children. This increasing concentration of magic across multiple generations, and the inhibition of pollution by mundane blood, would reverse the biological norm. Whereas mundane birth used to be the norm, it is now a rarity, an uncommon birth defect.

Unfortunately, the magisters did not think to deprive the mundanes of their sole advantage in numbers, and the mages of today pay for this mistake as the orders of rank are violated; the sheep now tend the shepherd. If these brave souls can topple the tyrannical rule that besets them and reverse the social hierarchy, as the mundanes themselves did ages ago, hopefully they learn from the errors of their forebears. It will be up to them to halt the perpetuation of mundane blood, lest Thedas continue to bear the burden of its obsoletion.

I have nothing much to say to that, except that "it wouldn't work." Every "social doctor" runs around with the assumption that he can control everything - all he deserves is a second chance. It all boils down to such thinking: if X goes right, and if Y behaves this way, ...ad nauseum..., we'd surely accomplish XYZ. Things work in ways that make such nonsensical computations merely exercises in futility.

And as I said earlier, the general tendency of groups it seems is enacting behaviors or systems that tend to enhance their own self-preservation. There seems to be no real or strict moral justifiation for such behaviors, neither in the case of Old Tevinter nor in the case of the present Circle system. The more the degree to which such behaviors violate the self-preservation tendencies of those in the minority, of those it necesssarily subjugates, the faster comes the demise of the system. This gives opportunites for new systems to rise, giving people a fresh chance to make such mistakes all over again. Ad infinitum...

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

That's why Templar exist.

Templars are not suited for open warfare. Their lyrium addiction makes it impossible to keep them in large numbers for long. Second part while they are reasonably effective vs mages they are just man in armor against other soldiers. So solutions will cause the mages to win one way or the other. And if the qunari win then both sides loses

[5trangeCase]

I maintain that Sten was right. Mages ARE beasts that wear the faces of men. But they do not realise that they are beasts. "Mundanes" have the potential to become serial killers, but mundanes can't topple cities with the power of their will alone. And that can be a mage that isn't possessed by a demon. Power corrupts, and power is intrinsically woven into the skin of every mage. A mage can be a destructive beast without a demon possessing him/her.

Mages are powerful. Power corrupts. The corruption of power leads one to seek more power. Seeking power leads to blood magic. Blood magic leads to demonic possession.

This is the cycle of the magi.

You place Wynne before me. You say that you cannot understand how Sten can believe that with Wynne around him. Wynne has lived in the Circle all her life. The Circle has properly conditioned her so she can master the beast within. Sten knows that there is still a beast inside her, but he won't change his opinion because she isn't a typical mage, she has tamed herself. That said, Orsino produced a brilliant argument towards Saarebas at the end of DA2.

What do I believe is the solution? The Circle of Magi, however, I would remove the current hierarchy so there is no position above Knight Templar. The priests of the Chantry should hold all leadership within the Templar order. This is the best effort I believe towards the Gallows never happening again.

On the subject of the Harrowing and the Rite of Tranquility? Let me say first of all that I believe that the Rite of Annulment is a necessary evil that should be available to the representative of the Divine within each Circle.

But yes, the Harrowing, I believe that it is a necessary evil. However, I think that all recruits to the Circle of Magi should be given at least a year of study before taking on the Harrowing, and no one younger than the age of 18 should be forced to undergo it.

The Tranquils are a necessity, I think. There are mages who volunteer, and it should be a carefully monitored response to failure in the Harrowing. Again, Chantry supervision is vital.

[Lazy Jer]

[quote]5trangeCase wrote...

I maintain that Sten was right. Mages ARE beasts that wear the faces of men. But they do not realise that they are beasts. "Mundanes" have the potential to become serial killers, but mundanes can't topple cities with the power of their will alone. And that can be a mage that isn't possessed by a demon. Power corrupts, and power is intrinsically woven into the skin of every mage. A mage can be a destructive beast without a demon possessing him/her.

Mages are powerful. Power corrupts. The corruption of power leads one to seek more power. Seeking power leads to blood magic. Blood magic leads to demonic possession.

This is the cycle of the magi. [/quote]

How, exactly, are you defining the term "beast"?  I ask this because nothing you said just now indicates at all that a mage is more beast then man.  Power does corrupt...humans (etc.)

[/quote]

[quote]You place Wynne before me. You say that you cannot understand how Sten can believe that with Wynne around him. Wynne has lived in the Circle all her life. The Circle has properly conditioned her so she can master the beast within. Sten knows that there is still a beast inside her, but he won't change his opinion because she isn't a typical mage, she has tamed herself. That said, Orsino produced a brilliant argument towards Saarebas at the end of DA2.[/quote]

If your definition of the a beast is someone that has "a beast within" then we're all beasts.  (Opinion Alert!) Sten believes that mages are "beasts with the faces of men" because he was told that by the Qun.  It makes it a heck of a lot easier to justify cutting someone's toung out or sewing their mouths shut and slapping a color and mask on them for the rest of their lives if you have the "They're not really human, so it's okay." excuse.

[quote]What do I believe is the solution? The Circle of Magi, however, I would remove the current hierarchy so there is no position above Knight Templar. The priests of the Chantry should hold all leadership within the Templar order. This is the best effort I believe towards the Gallows never happening again.[/quote]

You just stated that power corrupts.  How would replacing one set of corruptable people with a different set of corruptable people make anything better.  Personally I think the
 
[quote]On the subject of the Harrowing and the Rite of Tranquility? Let me say first of all that I believe that the Rite of Annulment is a necessary evil that should be available to the representative of the Divine within each Circle.[/quote]

The Rite of Annulment is kept as an option to deal with a circle that has fallen so much to corruption that it presents a danger to the rest of the world (or at least the rest of the continent).  The problem is that there is no similar option to protect mages from a certain branch of the Templar Order that has gotten to be equally corrupt.  The whole hullabaloo in Act 3 could have been avoided if the mages had an offical means of calling Meredeth into question and forcing an inquiry.

[GavrielKay]

5trangeCase wrote...

I maintain that Sten was right. Mages ARE beasts that wear the faces of men. But they do not realise that they are beasts. "Mundanes" have the potential to become serial killers, but mundanes can't topple cities with the power of their will alone. And that can be a mage that isn't possessed by a demon. Power corrupts, and power is intrinsically woven into the skin of every mage. A mage can be a destructive beast without a demon possessing him/her.

Holy cow.

First, game evidence does not bear out your statements.  We meet many mages who are very much in control of their abilities and much less bestial than some of the "mundanes" around them.  Access to power does not make one a beast.

Second, I see no evidence that a mage can topple a city.  We kill quite a few of them in our travels as the Warden and Hawke.  We also see them brought to heel without a lot of trouble by Templars and other strong folks.

Third, learning to control the power and resist demons does not in any way require a religious organization telling them they are beasts and cursed and ...  you get the idea.  The Dalish seem to do just fine with mages.  Even Tevinter isn't overrun by abominations.  Resisting demons appears to be about willpower and self control.  Neither of those things is in any way improved by being taught from puberty that you're hated, feared and too dangerous to be allowed free will.

Fourth, if any of what you say were really true, Thedas would already be a smoking ruin.  There are already a large number of free mages in Thedas.  The Dalish, Rivaini, Chasind and Tevinter have free mages.  Apostates are everywhere.  Even power hungry crazed maleficar seem to abound in Kirkwall.  And yet, the city is still standing.  In fact, I would say the trouble in Kirkwall could much more properly be blamed on the Chantry and it's handling of Meredith than the mages.

[TEWR]

Wow, it's not everyday you meet a Qunari who doesn't even understand what the Qun says.

Send him to the Tamassrans! He must be re-educated!

[Knight Commander]

The problem about this war will be that now most of the mages will resort to blood magic and if that happens than if they lose this war (possibly) every single mage that participated will be executed or something like that. Anyways if they want to prove that they're worth being treated as real people then how about this"stop using blood magic".

[Silfren]

Knight Commander wrote...

The problem about this war will be that now most of the mages will resort to blood magic and if that happens than if they lose this war (possibly) every single mage that participated will be executed or something like that. Anyways if they want to prove that they're worth being treated as real people then how about this"stop using blood magic".

How about we stop forcing mages into life-or-death situations where they literally have nothing to lose by turning to blood magic, because they're going to die otherwise anyway?  How about certain people STOP bringing up examples of mages turning to blood magic in pure desperation because they are literally at sword-point and can see no other means to save their life...and using that to claim that "see, they all turn to blood magic in the end!"  Because many of the blood mages we see in DA2, arguably most, I think, turn to blood magic and demons specifically because it's their last-resort option. 

People shouldn't have to DIE to prove that they were decent, moral people in life.

There just are not that many people who will absolutely hold to their dearest morals when their life is in immediate danger.  Some will, yes, and I'm not denying that.  But most will not, for no other reason than basic survival instinct.  It is hardly fair to force someone into that state of desperation and claim that it proves that it justifies killing them because allegedly it proves  they were immoral all along.

[Knight Commander]

Silfren wrote...

Knight Commander wrote...

The problem about this war will be that now most of the mages will resort to blood magic and if that happens than if they lose this war (possibly) every single mage that participated will be executed or something like that. Anyways if they want to prove that they're worth being treated as real people then how about this"stop using blood magic".

How about we stop forcing mages into life-or-death situations where they literally have nothing to lose by turning to blood magic, because they're going to die otherwise anyway?  How about certain people STOP bringing up examples of mages turning to blood magic in pure desperation because they are literally at sword-point and can see no other means to save their life...and using that to claim that "see, they all turn to blood magic in the end!"  Because many of the blood mages we see in DA2, arguably most, I think, turn to blood magic and demons specifically because it's their last-resort option. 

People shouldn't have to DIE to prove that they were decent, moral people in life.

There just are not that many people who will absolutely hold to their dearest morals when their life is in immediate danger.  Some will, yes, and I'm not denying that.  But most will not, for no other reason than basic survival instinct.  It is hardly fair to force someone into that state of desperation and claim that it proves that it justifies killing them because allegedly it proves  they were immoral all along.

We wouldn't have to force them in to life-or-death situations if none of them started to use blood magic in the first. Even though some templars are very cruel to mages I can understand, everyday they're staring death in the face just so they can protect people and or the chantry. Ever since "First Enchanter" Orisno knew the person who killed the main characters mother in DA2 and then used it means most mages cannot be trusted unless someone like Wynne who has a "Guardian angle". I admit mages shouldn't be treated this bad but I agree with they should never be given "total" freedom unless they're in the Grey Wardens.

[Silfren]

Knight Commander wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Knight Commander wrote...

The problem about this war will be that now most of the mages will resort to blood magic and if that happens than if they lose this war (possibly) every single mage that participated will be executed or something like that. Anyways if they want to prove that they're worth being treated as real people then how about this"stop using blood magic".

How about we stop forcing mages into life-or-death situations where they literally have nothing to lose by turning to blood magic, because they're going to die otherwise anyway?  How about certain people STOP bringing up examples of mages turning to blood magic in pure desperation because they are literally at sword-point and can see no other means to save their life...and using that to claim that "see, they all turn to blood magic in the end!"  Because many of the blood mages we see in DA2, arguably most, I think, turn to blood magic and demons specifically because it's their last-resort option. 

People shouldn't have to DIE to prove that they were decent, moral people in life.

There just are not that many people who will absolutely hold to their dearest morals when their life is in immediate danger.  Some will, yes, and I'm not denying that.  But most will not, for no other reason than basic survival instinct.  It is hardly fair to force someone into that state of desperation and claim that it proves that it justifies killing them because allegedly it proves  they were immoral all along.

We wouldn't have to force them in to life-or-death situations if none of them started to use blood magic in the first. Even though some templars are very cruel to mages I can understand, everyday they're staring death in the face just so they can protect people and or the chantry. Ever since "First Enchanter" Orisno knew the person who killed the main characters mother in DA2 and then used it means most mages cannot be trusted unless someone like Wynne who has a "Guardian angle". I admit mages shouldn't be treated this bad but I agree with they should never be given "total" freedom unless they're in the Grey Wardens.

On the contary, DA2 shows several mages for whom there is ZERO evidence they ever used blood magic before they found themselves staring down the point of a sword.

I've never supported "total" freedom for mages if by that you mean no oversight at all.  I think they should be allowed to live free, marry and keep their children, but I have never claimed that mandatory training isn't essential, or that mage-specific guards shouldn't be around to deal with rogues.

[GavrielKay]

Knight Commander wrote...
I admit mages shouldn't be treated this bad but I agree with they should never be given "total" freedom unless they're in the Grey Wardens.

There's an intersting double standard.  There doesn't seem to be anything about being a Grey Warden that should make a mage less attractive to a demon, or more able to resist a demon.

I just don't see that gamplay and even most lore supports -at all- the Chantry dogma that mages are so dangerous they must be locked up.

Given the number of (foreign or illegal) free mages already running about, if they really were that prone to demon possession or psychotic city-destroying rampages, there wouldn't be anything left of the world to protect.  The roving blood mage gangs in Kirkwall should have leveled the city if it were really that bad.

[DKJaigen]

Knight Commander wrote...

The problem about this war will be that now most of the mages will resort to blood magic and if that happens than if they lose this war (possibly) every single mage that participated will be executed or something like that. Anyways if they want to prove that they're worth being treated as real people then how about this"stop using blood magic".

They will be executed anyway so what is the point. and i dont think the common people care if the mages are use regular magic or. to them mages are bad period. Unless their is a very strong faction willing to aid the mages i see blood magic as inevitable. And why shouldnt they use BM. its proven is effective and unlike what the chantry says it doesnt corrupt people

[DPSSOC]

DKJaigen wrote...

Knight Commander wrote...

The problem about this war will be that now most of the mages will resort to blood magic and if that happens than if they lose this war (possibly) every single mage that participated will be executed or something like that. Anyways if they want to prove that they're worth being treated as real people then how about this"stop using blood magic".

They will be executed anyway so what is the point. and i dont think the common people care if the mages are use regular magic or. to them mages are bad period. Unless their is a very strong faction willing to aid the mages i see blood magic as inevitable. And why shouldnt they use BM. its proven is effective and unlike what the chantry says it doesnt corrupt people

You are doing harm to someone (yourself or another) solely to increase you power.  That changes you.  Ignoring the obvious slippery slope towards sadism and human sacrifice, you do run into the risk of dehumanization of your fellow man; people stop being people and become batteries.

Heck a small change in my behaviour led me to dehumanize my fellow man and I was just trying to keep to a schedule.