1194 réponses à ce sujet

[Lazy Jer]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mages can also look a demon in the eye and say "forget you! FIREBALL!!!" Then proceed to live a happy life without any demon turning him/her into an abomination.

Truuue....but if that was easy there'd be a heck of a lot  less of them.  Plus they do fight back.

[Dwarven exile]

I like to compare the Mage/templar conflict to the Genophage plague unleashed to the Krogan in the Mass Effect series. Just like the Salarians who released genophage to keep the Krogan number in check, the Templars do, in what they believe, a ''necessary evil, pragmatic way'' of solving the problem and avoiding a catastrophe in the near future. Curing the genophage/freeing the mages may seem like the most ''ethical'' way of dealing with the problem, but in the long run, one wonders if it blow up on people's face.

[TEWR]

Lazy Jer wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mages can also look a demon in the eye and say "forget you! FIREBALL!!!" Then proceed to live a happy life without any demon turning him/her into an abomination.

Truuue....but if that was easy there'd be a heck of a lot  less of them.  Plus they do fight back.

This is kinda an argument for demonology to be performed, even in a limited and supervised fashion.

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself,
you will succumb in every battle

If the mages know demons and how to combat them, then it becomes easier. Contrast this to the demons, who know quite easily how to combat a Mage.

Whether through brute force or more subtle means.

Demonology doesn't require blood magic, just to be clear. At least, not how I understood it. Demonology and blood magic seem to be two separate things that can work together, but don't require the other to work.

I mean, all that needs to be done to study demons is... well... study the Fade when you sleep.

But I think the Chantry tends to conflate the two as being joint at the hip, so to speak. So you don't see much progress done since the classification of demons into the sins they embody -- at least by Andrastian Mages, though it is very apt -- was done by Enchanter.... Bromin I think was his name.

[MichaelFinnegan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

@ MichaelFinnegan

Nice set of rebuttals and discussions there. It was fascinating to read it all. Good job.

That was most kind. My gratitude for your compliments.

[MichaelFinnegan]

GavrielKay wrote...

My basic feeling on this issue is that mages are a natural occurrence.  Like a rainstorm which nourishes the crops or a hurricane that washes them away.  When a natural disaster happens ( like an earthquake or hurricane etc ) people die and their friends and families cry and wring their hands and then move on with their lives.  It's a tradgedy.  But when it happens we don't talk about forcing everyone to move away from the coast or out of the earthquake zone.

Interesting analogy.

On a slightly different note I'd like to bring in some perspective, and I'd like to discuss about a tragedy in the context of mages.

***Spoiler alert for those who've not read Asunder***

I'm not sure if you've read Asunder. But in that novel there is a particular incident that is worthy of note. The inhabitants of the Fortress Adamant take in Pharamond, a tranquil tasked with finding a cure for tranquility. Why, Adamant? Because the Veil is already thin there, and it is far away from the prying eyes of templars; all of which provides a conducive environment for what Pharamond is about to do. The essential point is that the inhabitants show exceptional kindness toward Pharamond - mostly because he is a tranquil. And they allow him to do his research there, knowing full well what it might lead to. So a thought occurs to Pharamond. The thought is generally to allure a demon across the Veil to just about possess him, by letting down his tranquil-guard, his natural defense against the demons. He discusses this with the Mayor of the Fortress and its denizens and they're willing to allow him to do it. And they're willing to face the risks. So they seal the main doors of the Fortress; to contain the situation in the event there is an outbreak.

Now, no matter the outcome of this, the point is this: a group of people willingly put themselves at risk, knowing full well the consequences. My heart eternally goes out to them - and I laud them as heros. A task the Chantry and templars should have taken is being taken up a group of ordinary people; out of, if nothing else, compassion for a fellow being whose emotions have been stripped from him.

But... the situation isn't as simple. It doesn't end there. The fact of the matter is, no matter what precautions the denizens of the Fortress took, it nearly wasn't enough. Why? The demons are out of The Fade, and free to cause more havoc in the moral realm. Now this action in turn endangers the lives of others, whether that was intended or not.

That said I have no sympathy for those who cry that Pharamond caused the death of those people at the Fortress. I think such accusations fall short, simply because the lives of people are their own business, to live it or give it up as they see fit, for the cause they choose.

***End spoiler alert***

Accidental possession falls into the hurricane category for me - natural disaster.

The case I made above I believe was a case of accidental possession - the tranquil was never intending to become possessed, for all intents and purposes. But I understand that you mean "accidental possession" in a different and broader sense. If certain people choose to allow mages to exist freely among them knowing full well what that might end up becoming, then it's their business - but we need to consider that consequences have a bad habit of spilling across, to other sets/groups of people who have not allowed mages to live among them, so the latter group of people might very well object when the former decide to harbor mages.

Just because mages can be locked up and earthquakes can't doesn't make it right.  Life is risky.  The fact that one of those risks is contained in a sentient body which can be put in a tower and kept under guard doesn't make it morally right to do so.

Locking up a mage doesn't become a moral argument, in my book, up until the point that there is at least one case of violence by the mage - same as that for a psychopath, which I was discussing earlier. That is the risk that any such moral argument runs against; what the normal folks in Thedas actuality do is act in terms of self-preservation - on the fear (not entirely irrational) that someday the mage might do something wrong. That is group mentality - it only works because there are numbers (or should I call it "brute force"?) behind that argument.

Even if some lives might be saved it isn't any more right to lock up mages than to force all fisherman to give up their livelihood and move out of a hurricane's reach.

Locking up mages isn't the same thing as forcing fishermen to move, though, is it? Besides a mage isn't equivalent to a hurricane until he manifests his "tempestual" abilities, so the analogy is actually contingent on certain actions already having been taken by a mage.

PS:  I think of it this way...  if we do not tell the fisherman that his safety is more important than his freedom, how can we say that fisherman's safety is more important than someone else's freedom?

The question of importance is relative. It'd usually be accurate if we name an object: for whom is the said freedom important, for instance?

My freedom is important to me than yours, but your freedom is also important to me in the sense that I'd think I'd have a better chance of having my freedom if I recognize (and not violate) yours. If I decide to somehow curtail your freedom, in the name of some arbitrary notion of safety, which may not even hold since you might not have violated my sense of freedom, then, naturally you'd object. Freedom is therefore a mutual deal.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Lazy Jer wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mages can also look a demon in the eye and say "forget you! FIREBALL!!!" Then proceed to live a happy life without any demon turning him/her into an abomination.

Truuue....but if that was easy there'd be a heck of a lot  less of them.  Plus they do fight back.

Do we even know there is a "limited supply" of demons? 

[dragonflight288]

Truuue....but if that was easy there'd be a heck of a lot less of them. Plus they do fight back.

Yes they do. Which is why a mandatory boarding school and training would be necessary. A learning environment where people don't have to worry on how templar's treating them based on the attitude of the resident Knight-Commander. Templars are needed to deal with rogue mages and maleficar, but not needed to be the overpowered watchdogs of EVERY mage in the Circle, including the ones who, as MichaelFinnegan has brought up, have absolutely no record or behavior of criminal activity and simply need a place to learn and defend themselves.

Then go out into the world as fully prepared as they can be (nothing's perfect) without needing to ask permission from a Grand Cleric or Revered Mother for permission to marry and have children.

[Lazy Jer]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Truuue....but if that was easy there'd be a heck of a lot  less of them.  Plus they do fight back.

Do we even know there is a "limited supply" of demons? 

Where did I say that there were?

Dragonflight288 wrote...

Yes they do. Which is why a mandatory boarding school and training would be necessary. A learning environment where people don't have to worry on how templar's treating them based on the attitude of the resident Knight-Commander. Templars are needed to deal with rogue mages and maleficar, but not needed to be the overpowered watchdogs of EVERY mage in the Circle, including the ones who, as MichaelFinnegan has brought up, have absolutely no record or behavior of criminal activity and simply need a place to learn and defend themselves.

Then go out into the world as fully prepared as they can be (nothing's perfect) without needing to ask permission from a Grand Cleric or Revered Mother for permission to marry and have children.

Well keep in mind that the purpose of the templars in the Circle isn't just to bully mages around.  People often forget that the Templars are also there to protect the mages and the circle.  People also assume that the circle in Kirkwall is representative of all circles.  Meredeth overstepped her boundries to the point where she went directly against the system she proclaimed she was protecting.  Technically speaking the First Enchanter is in charge of the circle.  The Knight-Commander is just in charge of the templars that run the place.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 01 mai 2012 - 03:43 .

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
It might not be the most moral decision but given what we've seen mages are capable of; what they can do by accident, or in anger, or fear, or despair it is irresponsible to just let them run free, and Thedas is too big to effectively police them all across the continent.

At least you admit is isn't moral.  It is also irresponsible to treat them like caged beasts and expect them to act like something else.

Ok hypothetical; I'm capable of blowing myself up with the force of my weight in TNT, I can do it at will but it can also happen without my trying when I'm angry, scared, or depressed.  So potentially every time I have a really bad nightmare I could blow up the house I'm in.  Not to mention day to day interactions with people.  In that instance is my freedom more important than the safety and well being of everyone I meet?  No, no it's not.

That depends on what the chances really are.  If the chance is 50/50 then we'd probably be safer just knifing you the moment we find you.  If the chance is 1 in 10,000 then perhaps we're just being paranoid and thinking our miniscule chance of being blown up jusitfies making you and everyone like you into playthings for sadistic bastards.

There are thousands of mages.  Nearly all of them are never going to hurt anyone.  If every single mage really had a high chance of having a nightmare and blowing up his house, then circles wouldn't work anyway.  They'd be smoking ruins from having hundreds of these ticking time bombs housed there.  So in fact, it seems there's a very small chance of any given mage actually hurting themselves or anyone else. 

I maintain that it is society's problem to deal with that small chance the same way they deal with the possibility of having their village burn down from a lightning strike.

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...
I guess what I'm saying is that I liken it less to a natural disaster and more to people who who happen to have schitzophrenia.  Not everyone who has scitzophrenia is going to go out and murder anyone, but enough who do have that certain precautions must be made.  That being said, it's not right to simply chuck them all into a prision.

I agree here, that precautions must be taken.

I think it is a matter of scale, and perhaps schitzophrenia is a good example.  Not many people with the disease are actually going to hurt anyone, so setting up a religion based around telling everyone that it's a curse and so dangerous that as soon as you find someone who has it, they must be carted away for life is just paranoia.

[GavrielKay]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
If certain people choose to allow mages to exist freely among them knowing full well what that might end up becoming, then it's their business - but we need to consider that consequences have a bad habit of spilling across, to other sets/groups of people who have not allowed mages to live among them, so the latter group of people might very well object when the former decide to harbor mages.

See, all this relies on the simple fact that mages are of a physical nature that provides the expedient of being locked up.  I think that is a convenience that people take advantage of because they can.  Other potential disasters (fire, flood, drought, hurricane etc) people just figure out whatever precautions they can and deal with it.

A hypothetical of my own:

What solutions do you think people would come up with if imprisoning mages weren't possible for some reason?  If they could teleport or walk through walls and could not be contained.  Would they just be killed outright in fear or would some sort of peaceful co-existance be worked out?

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

Silfren wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Knight Commander wrote...
The problem about this war will be that now most of the mages will resort to blood magic and if that happens than if they lose this war (possibly) every single mage that participated will be executed or something like that. Anyways if they want to prove that they're worth being treated as real people then how about this"stop using blood magic".

They will be executed anyway so what is the point. and i dont think the common people care if the mages are use regular magic or. to them mages are bad period. Unless their is a very strong faction willing to aid the mages i see blood magic as inevitable. And why shouldnt they use BM. its proven is effective and unlike what the chantry says it doesnt corrupt people

You are doing harm to someone (yourself or another) solely to increase you power.  That changes you.  Ignoring the obvious slippery slope towards sadism and human sacrifice, you do run into the risk of dehumanization of your fellow man; people stop being people and become batteries.

Heck a small change in my behaviour led me to dehumanize my fellow man and I was just trying to keep to a schedule.

Doing harm to oneself is a person's personal business.  It shouldn't even be part of the equation.  And it isn't done SOLELY to incerase your own power.

You misunderstand me, I'm not demonizing the act of choosing to harm yourself.  However you can't claim that choosing to start doing so, as an everyday practice, won't change you.  Furthermore it is solely about increasing your power.  Circumstances and motivations, why you need/want more power, may vary but as far as blood magic is concerned the act of harming yourself or someone else is entirely about acquiring more power.

Silfren wrote...
What happens when a mage is in the middle of a fight, has taxed their lyrium-based mana?  Should they just give themselves over to death rather than resort to their own blood in order to continue fighting?  Grey Warden Mages would be a good example of this.  Is a mage to simply give up and die rather than use blood to fuel their spells in order to take down darkspawn?

Fine examples, and I'm not saying that blood magic is bad all the time, but there's a difference between using blood magic as a matter of general practice and using it as a matter of necessity.  I'm not arguing against the use of blood magic, I'm arguing against the idea that you can start down that road and not be affected by it.  A good example of what I'm talking about is Avernus.  What were his fellow Wardens, his "volunteers" to him?  Nothing, a means to an end, through them he could master the taint and increase his longevity and hopefully find a way to defeat the demons he'd set loose.  He wasn't out to hurt people for it's own sake, he wasn't murdering people just to fuel some need for power, he just stopped seeing them as allies, colleagues, or friends and saw them as subjects.

That is the danger, that is the corruption, that blood magic, while it doesn't create it, feeds.  It's not that blood magic turns good men into monsters, it's that eventually you've got to ask yourself; if you view your own life force as disposable, a resource to be tapped as often and as deeply as necessary, then what value does anyone else's hold?

Avernus is ONE example of a blood mage using his abilities in unethical ways for a good cause, yes, but he shouldn't be held up as de facto evidence that all mages will inevitably be changed.  We don't see evidence that he started down that road with a different perspective.  If anything, we see evidence that he ALWAYS believed the ends justified the means, always believed that it was acceptable to use unethical methods if the end results were beneficial.  We do NOT see that he was ever a person who believed otherwise, that he was ever of a mindset that there was a certain that that a person should not ever cross, and that the use of blood magic caused him to eventually leave that belief behind.  So no, Avernus alone does not "prove" that blood magic will inevitably cause a person to undergo a change in their moral perspective.

I don't at all see that a person will inevitably come to believe that they have the right to use other people's life force according to their personal whim simply because they believed that using their OWN life force however they see fit is their own damn business.  Believing that the blood in your veins is yours to use as you will does NOT equate to believing that you see it as disposable or without value.  I'm one of those people, you see.  I believe that my life is my own to use in any way I see fit, regardless of any harm I may or may not cause to myself.  It is MY life, after all.  But never once has this caused me to "under-value" ANY life, mine or otherwise.  Honestly I don't see the logic in assuming that simply because a person views the blood in their own veins as free for their use in any way they deem appropriate, it means that they don't consider that life to be of any value.  This may be your personal view, but you have no reason to project it onto others.

[Silfren]

Urzon wrote...

DannieCraft wrote...

It is a fact that mages are dangerous. They are born with a dangerous gift, and demons are always looking for potentials. Not all mages use their gift for wickedness, but as long as there are those who does, how should they control it? Letting mages deal with their own kind is one idea that through history have been proven not to work.

I support the Templars.

While it is true that the mages policing mages didn't work, Tevinter regressed back into a magocracy because of that. The Chantry system is flawed as well. It still produces mages that think the only way to true happiness and freedom is through blood magic and over the bodies of others. It also produces the insane blood mages like Uldred, Quentin, Grace, and Orsino. (If that Harvester fight was really canon, and not Varic just embellishing.)

It is safe to say that both systems are broken, in their own ways.

A crucial fact about Tevinter should not be ignored, however:  It already had the culture and history in place to support that regression, and there is evidence that there wasn't much of a "regression" at all, because we have lore that states that Andrastian doctrine was viewed differently by Tevinter than the rest of Thedas FROM THE BEGINNING.  We cannot assume that a nation lacking in that same history, but which has a fundamentally different perspective of Chantry doctrine and a population already inherently opposed to slavery and the unchecked application of blood magic, will inevitably follow the same path.

[Silfren]

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest their are quite a few hints
that the darkspawn existed before the magisters performed their ritual. But untill a full explantion is given about the darkspawn i simply will not discuss it nor will i attribute it to the mages

Could you elaborate a bit on these points?  I've been trying togather up as much evidence as I can that challenges the Chantry's doctrinal assumptions.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 mai 2012 - 06:59 .

[Cantina]

Here is my short summary on how I feel.

Templars: Need to die-yes I mean you too Cullen. Your sex appeal will not save your butt.

The Chantry: <thumbs up for the explosion>

Grand Cleric: Glad she is dead-she annoyed the hell out of me.

Anders: Runaway with him and have a dozen mage babies


My explanation is finished-thee end.


So how about them Darkspawn, nasty little bastards aren’t they?!

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest their are quite a few hints
that the darkspawn existed before the magisters performed their ritual. But untill a full explantion is given about the darkspawn i simply will not discuss it nor will i attribute it to the mages

Could you elaborate a bit on these points?  I've been trying togather up as much evidence as I can that challenges the Chantry's doctrinal assumptions.

The Dwarven codex on darkspawn says they "rose up from the ground", which not only implies they were below the Dwarves but that they were also Genlocks, since Legacy showed Genlocks doing exactly that.

Then there's the Red Lyrium which has the same sound file as the Darkspawn's whispering in Ostagar when they're approaching the edge of the forest, the Warden Joining, and the Reaver Joining. You hear this very faintly in the final battle with Meredith. It's hard to make out over her dialogue, but it is there.

The Darkspawn and both Joinings have one thing in common: They're linked to Dragons. So, logically, the Red Lyrium has to be linked to Dragons.

I could swear there was some other stuff.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest their are quite a few hints
that the darkspawn existed before the magisters performed their ritual. But untill a full explantion is given about the darkspawn i simply will not discuss it nor will i attribute it to the mages

Could you elaborate a bit on these points?  I've been trying togather up as much evidence as I can that challenges the Chantry's doctrinal assumptions.

The Dwarven codex on darkspawn says they "rose up from the ground", which not only implies they were below the Dwarves but that they were also Genlocks, since Legacy showed Genlocks doing exactly that.

Then there's the Red Lyrium which has the same sound file as the Darkspawn's whispering in Ostagar when they're approaching the edge of the forest, the Warden Joining, and the Reaver Joining. You hear this very faintly in the final battle with Meredith. It's hard to make out over her dialogue, but it is there.

The Darkspawn and both Joinings have one thing in common: They're linked to Dragons. So, logically, the Red Lyrium has to be linked to Dragons.

I could swear there was some other stuff.

Abominations also rise up from the ground, to according to DA2.  And Coterie assassins, carta dwarves, and various other banditry groups materialize from thin air and even drop from the sky. 

I'm just sayin'. 

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

Abominations also rise up from the ground, to according to DA2. And Coterie assassins, carta dwarves, and various other banditry groups materialize from thin air and even drop from the sky.

I'm just sayin'.

LOL.

To be fair, IIRC John Epler admitted that wasn't intended for the Abominations. But the Genlocks actually come up out of dirt mounds.

They like to hide.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 08:06 .

[5trangeCase]

Broodmothers and Darkspawn live underground, so yes, Darkspawn will come from underground. All Darkspawn come from underground, so saying that they must be Genlocks because they came from underground is leaping to a conclusion.

[TEWR]

5trangeCase wrote...

Broodmothers and Darkspawn live underground, so yes, Darkspawn will come from underground. All Darkspawn come from underground, so saying that they must be Genlocks because they came from underground is leaping to a conclusion.

Fact: The Magisters of Tevinter became Awakened Darkspawn, meaning that they are unable to hear the Call of the Old Gods.

As a result, they cannot seek them out. This is canon lore given to us by the Architect, who has studied why he can't hear the Call of the Old Gods and how he can sever it.

So, logically, this means that the Magisters couldn't have sought out Dumat, if that's indeed the correct Old God that rose. For all we know scholars got the Dragon wrong, since they've been known to debate about it for long periods of time.

We also have Corypheus stating that the Dwarves had slaves. We know the Primeval Thaig existed well before the First Blight.

Add into that everything I've said about red lyrium and the Genlocks actually rising out of dirt mounds -- which supports the claim of the Darkspawn rising from the earth -- and you have sufficient evidence to tie the Primeval Thaig's Dwarves to the Darkspawn.

The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage. At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs, came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong.

--As told by Shaper Czibor.


Creatures in the Dwarves' own likeness. If that doesn't say Genlocks, then I don't know what does.

Plus, to think that the Magisters could've avoided being noticed by the entire Dwarven Empire when it was at its peak is sheer folly. Never mind that there's nothing to indicate that an Awakened Darkspawn will know how to create a broodmother, whereas a non-Awakened Darkspawn knows through pure instinct.

And Varric and Bartrand claim to hear a song because of the lyrium idol. Quite possibly the same song the Darkspawn hear.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 08:24 .

[5trangeCase]

You cannot call Magisters awakened Darkspawn. They are not even really Darkspawn. Besides, even though the Awakened are not bound to the Call, clearly they can in some way find the Old Gods, otherwise how did the Architect find Urthemiel?

There were no Darkspawn in the Primeval Thaig, so what does the Primeval Thaig preceding the First Blight have to do with anything? How does red lyrium have anything to do with Darkspawn?

[TEWR]

5trangeCase wrote...

You cannot call Magisters awakened Darkspawn. They are not even really Darkspawn

Uh, yes they are. Corypheus is an Awakened Darkspawn, labeled as such by the Grey Wardens. The entire DLC was touted as being Darkspawn-centric, where we'd learn more about the Darkspawn.

Never mind the fact that Avernus' research says the Black City is connected to the Taint, which Corypheus and the other Magisters entered.

A lot of people -- myself included -- are highly convinced that the Architect is another of the Magisters that stepped foot in the Black City. If that turns out to be the case, then there's no arguing otherwise.

There were no Darkspawn in the Primeval Thaig, so what does the Primeval Thaig preceding the First Blight have to do with anything? How does red lyrium have anything to do with Darkspawn?

Yes, I know there were no Darkspawn in the Primeval Thaig. But the fact that the Primeval Thaigs are the only places the Darkspawn don't want to go near indicates some connection to their origins, IMO. They don't care about any other place in Thedas, but they don't go near this one?

Seems kinda... mysterious.

And obviously you didn't read what I stated a few posts above about the Red Lyrium. Varric and Bartrand can hear a song because of the Red Lyrium Idol -- quite possibly the same song the Darkspawn hear -- and the fact that the sound file used in the Meredith battle is the same as the Darkspawn whispering one you hear when they begin to exit the Wilds in the Ostagar cinematic, the Warden Joining whispering, and the Reaver Joining whispering also indicates a connection to the Darkspawn.

Especially given the one common factor between the latter three: Dragons. Because they all share one common factor, I'm led to believe the Red Lyrium Idol shares that same common factor.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 10:29 .

[dragonflight288]

Well keep in mind that the purpose of the templars in the Circle isn't just to bully mages around. People often forget that the Templars are also there to protect the mages and the circle. People also assume that the circle in Kirkwall is representative of all circles. Meredeth overstepped her boundries to the point where she went directly against the system she proclaimed she was protecting. Technically speaking the First Enchanter is in charge of the circle. The Knight-Commander is just in charge of the templars that run the place.

I bolded the important part. I have not forgotten that. Wynne specifically mentions that the fear and hatred of mages is so great that sometimes when a mage child is discovered, a mob of villagers gather and blame a bad crop, someone's cow dying, or some other bad thing happening as an omen of a curse from the maker as a result of the mage in question, and the templars never get to the kid who is killed.

But we also have Ferelden's circle. If you play the mage origin we have Cullen, who at this point in time, is completely sympathetic to mages and sports a massive (and obvious) crush on the female mage. And to the male mage, he is nothing short of friendly and appears genuinely sorry that he was the one called upon to cut off our head if things went south in the Harrowing. But he talks of templars who discuss the killing of mages with glee.

And Wynne also mentions Aneirin. Her apprentice who left the Circle at the age of fourteen. The templars tracked him down and ran him through, calling him a maleficar because he wanted to live among the Dalish. This is Ferelden, largely considered one of the most mage-friendly circles in Thedas. And what does Aneirin do after surviving his run in with the templars? He becomes a healer for the Dalish, living out in he woods and minding his own business. He seems completely at peace when we find him again. No anger, no blood magic. Nothing the templars accused him of.

I recognize that templars need to protect mages from the world...but it's a world of fear created by the Chantry. The Dalish, the seers of Rivain, the Chasind, they resist the Chantry when it comes to imprisoning their mages. They respect them. How everyone but the Dalish actually treats their mages and the threat of abominations hasn't been revealed yet, but it's only Andrastian nations (and the Qunari) that mages need to fear the populous to begin with.

You cannot call Magisters awakened Darkspawn. They are not even really Darkspawn. Besides, even though the Awakened are not bound to the Call, clearly they can in some way find the Old Gods, otherwise how did the Architect find Urthemiel?

There were no Darkspawn in the Primeval Thaig, so what does the Primeval Thaig preceding the First Blight have to do with anything? How does red lyrium have anything to do with Darkspawn?

....that's exactly what Corypheus is. The Grey Wardens specifically calls him that. And Etheral is right, the Architect proves awakened darkspawn cannot hear the old gods. Heck, that's exactly why the Mother went insane. She was determined to hear the song again, end the silence, and she went completely nuts trying to undo what the Architect had done to her.

[Lazy Jer]

Cantina wrote...

Here is my short summary on how I feel.

Templars: Need to die-yes I mean you too Cullen. Your sex appeal will not save your butt.

The Chantry: <thumbs up for the explosion>

Grand Cleric: Glad she is dead-she annoyed the hell out of me.

Anders: Runaway with him and have a dozen mage babies

My explanation is finished-thee end.

So how about them Darkspawn, nasty little bastards aren’t they?!

How handy...my rebuttle.

Templars: No.

Chantry: Thumbs down.

Grand Cleric: Boo...blowing up the Grand Cleric.  Hooray BEER!

Anders: Death is too good a punishment for him...make him a night manager at a 7-11.

Darkspawn:  Apparently they're better hockey players then the undead.

[Urzon]

5trangeCase wrote...

You cannot call Magisters awakened Darkspawn. They are not even really Darkspawn. Besides, even though the Awakened are not bound to the Call, clearly they can in some way find the Old Gods, otherwise how did the Architect find Urthemiel?

There could be many ways the Architect found the location of Urthemiel.

The higher ranking Grey Wardens are said to know the locations of all the Old Gods. He could have gotten the information out of Utha if she knew. Since the non-awakened darkspawn can still hear the call, he could have easily just followed them and their digging to find a general location of Urthemiel.

Or best of all, sheer dumb luck.