1194 Antworten in diesem Thema

[Darkrider296]

katiebour you always give good rebuttals. Hold the line mage supporters do not let the fear and supposition of the opposing side break down what you know to be right at your core. I do not have the stomach to help the Templars. Call me weak for that if you want but in my heart I know its the right thing. Simple as that.

[Always Alice]

Darkrider296 wrote...
 Plus even the mages that do turn to evil things it is more because of circumstance.

That's a pretty big assumption to make. Caldrius is a victim of circumstance? Tarohne? That blood mage elf? Decimus? I don't recall seeing any of them show any remorse or regret over their actions.

Question that Maker in the sky who never does #$@% you'll be happy you did.

Who will be happy, exactly? I believe I said this on another thread, but you do realize a lot of these "little guys" believe in the Maker, right?  Do you feel that if the Chantry loses power then everyone will magically (pun partially intended) stop believing in Andraste and the Maker? Do you think they will all suddenly believe that magic is the greatest thing ever and they shouldn't fear what it can do?

Thedas get ready for some good old fashioned warfare. The streets will run red with seeker and templar blood. Hawke and Anders rebal forces will hunt those fanatics like ninjas 

For someone who wants peace you sure seem eager to have people killed

[Always Alice]

katiebour, I'm not the person you're replying to, but I hope you don't mind if I add in my two cents

katiebour wrote...

So are the Grey Wardens.  So are the Templars.  So is Fenris.  So is Aveline(/punch Darkspawn!)  So is/was Loghain.  There are any number of people in-game who are Walking Weapons of Mass Destruction.  So are the everyday bandits that plunder and destroy villages.  That title isn't limited to those with mage power.  It is also implied in the books/comics that there are mages whose magical power will just about let them light a candle, and little more.  Many mages are just very slightly magically gifted but otherwise ordinary people.

If you can't see the difference between someone with a sword and someone with magic then you're being deliberately obtuse. Unbridled magical ability can lead to disasterous consequences that would not be possible for a non-mage. Someone with magic might be a perfectly nice person, but they could be the cause of hundreds of deaths if they lose control of their powers without even meaning to. A mage might also give into a demon in a moment of weakness, without even realzing what she is doing (http://peopleoftheda...org/593442.html). That's why some kind of educational system is necessary.

Not every mage is a blood mage.  Not every mercenary is a reaver.  Not every pickpocket is an assassin.  Blood magic practiced by one mage, using their own blood and no one else's, is simply a power amplifier equal to loads and loads of lyrium.  Not every blood mage even makes a deal with a demon- that part is optional and unrelated to the use of blood as a power source.

The source doesn't matter; the results are the same: someone who is well-versed enough in bloodmagic is able to create a thrall. Imagine if someone like that ended up controlling a noble, or someone else in a position of power?

If you are a moral person and mage (Jedi *cough*) then you will use your powers for good and avoid their abuse.  

If you are an evil person and mage then you will join the Dark Side and use your powers for selfish ends.  And you will be hunted and killed, eventually.

You make it sound so simple. How many would die while this person is being hunted? How many people could he or she control? Who would you task with hunting down this mage? (I'm assuming templars, but you seem to be against the Circle system).

Being a good or bad person is unrelated to being a mage.  Being a bad person who is also a mage simply gives you new and more powerful ways to be evil, in the same way that being a bad person who is also a peerless warrior or mad scientist gives you other new and powerful ways to be evil.

Like I said before, having magic is A LOT different than being skilled with a sword.If you have a sword then you can be taken out by other guys with swords, but if you have magic then everyone else is pretty much screwed.

The flip side of that is that being a good person who is a mage gives you new and powerful ways to be good.  The Chantry should be teaching its followers (by example) how to be better people, not locking them up based on whether or not they're mages.

THIS. Mages could do so much good, but the current system is extrmely stifling. And the whole point of religion is to lead better lives, and in having mages help out society they really can "serve man." The problem is that there needs to be a way to teach them how to control these gifts.

Mages are more obvious targets than your average dreamers, but your Templars and your Harimanns are also susceptible.  EVERYONE should be taught the dangers of demons, not just mages.  EVERYONE is at risk.  And if EVERYONE (including mages) is smart, moral, and takes the appropriate precautions, then EVERYONE will be safe.

I agree completely. But the difference between the two is that if a non-mage is enthralled they will not have the ability to throw fireballs around. So while both might be at risk, one is the greater threat.

Except when they're useful for healing, and defeating Orlesian invasions, and fighting off Qunari, oh, and killing Darkspawn.  Let's just use the mages when we want to and then throw them back in their stone prisons when we're done with them.  Never mind the fact that the reason Duncan recruits in the Mage Tower in the first place is that mages have helped to defeat every Blight since the beginning of all Blights.

Ironically, the Divine brings up this exact point in Asunder.

Fire can burn and create a wound or it can cauterize and heal one.  The difference in how it's applied depends on the situation and the mage controlling the power.  Teach your mage to be a good person, give him support and freedom and a happy life in your community, and he will fight to the death to defend his friends, his neighbors, his family.  He will be there to heal your sick children and livestock, to cast sleep spells before setting bones, pulling teeth, and so forth.

Yes, yes,and yes. But at the same time, you can't go and assume that every mage will actually give a **** about the state of the community. And you need to be prepared for those situations, and how the non-mage population could be safeguarded.

Bearbeitet von Always Alice, 25 März 2012 - 05:32 .

[Always Alice]

double post

Bearbeitet von Always Alice, 25 März 2012 - 05:32 .

[Lynata]

Just to add something:

katiebour wrote...
EVERYONE is at risk.  And if EVERYONE (including mages) is smart, moral, and takes the appropriate precautions, then EVERYONE will be safe.

This is quite simply not how it works. Aside from becoming a Tranquil, there is no way for 100% safety against demonic possession - not ever. Even the Harrowing only shows that a mage has the potential to resist a demon, yet that doesn't mean he won't ever be turned. There will always be a certain risk. And as even the mages know, there are quite simply a lot of humans who do not have the willpower - a Circle's enchanters are responsible for submitting apprentices who are deemed to "not ever be ready" for the Rite of Tranquility; I do not think this is a decision they are making lightly.

Also, I do not think it is even possible for non-mages to get possessed by demons just because they are sleeping.

If you remember the possessed templar in DA2, this is what Cullen - a veteran with experience - says about it:

"I knew he was involved in something sinister, but this ... is it even possible? Normally we only worry that mages will fall victim to possession. I have heard of blood mages or demons in solid form who could summon others into unwilling hosts."

If you investigate, it turns out that indeed these possessed templars were the result of a group of blood mages capturing recruits for an "implantation" ritual.

From the DARPG (Set 1 Player's Guide, page 47 "The Dangers of Magic"):

"For reasons still unknown, mages attract the attention of the Fade's native spirits. Some sages speculate that the mages' native ability to use magic makes them appear differently in the Fade. Unlike other living beings, when a mage enters the Fade (voluntarily or not) he is able to act normally, and spirits may be able to sense this difference in them. However it occurs, malevolent spirits (such as demons) that wish to enter the world of the living are drawn to mages like beacons. Should a mage encounter such a demon in the Fade, it will attempt to possess him. Some demons try to use force, but others cajole or trick their prey, offering power or nearly anything to get their way.

The result is inevitably the same: an abomination is created. This is the name given to possessed mages, though it is not a physical possession. The demon is still in the Fade, but so is the mage's own spirit; the demon twists and controls the mage's body through that captive spirit. The demon sees through the body's eyes, channels his power through it, and is able to use the mage's magic in ways the captive would never have imagined. Once the demon is in control, an abomination becomes a mad creature that goes on a rampage until stopped. The more powerful the demon, the worse the abomination, and historical records tell of abominations that have ravaged entire settlements and continued to terrorize the countryside for years.

So it is that the fears of the common people are not unjustified. All mages are susceptible to demonic possession, and even the strongest must stay on their guard. This is why the Chantry created the Circle of Magi in the first place. If mages must exist so their power can be wielded against the darkspawn, so be it. The Chantry insists, however, that they must be watched carefully and that those who endanger Thedas be dealt with before possession can take place."

In short: normal dreamers get ignored in the Fade; the demons cannot interact with them (as their presence is entirely passive), so they are uninteresting, perhaps cannot even be sensed by the spirits. Ergo they are not at risk.

Lastly, I think that comparing blackmail to total mind control is an extremely simplified perspective. One lets you keep your free will and thus the chance to break free again, the other simply turns you into a puppet, without anyone noticing. This is what makes it so scary.

Bearbeitet von Lynata, 26 März 2012 - 12:22 .

[Faust1979]

Well every magic user except your sister  you run into does turn into an abomination in this game and tries to kill you

[glitter_guld]

That is because starting with Orsino this particular (Kirkwall) circle appears to be corrupted and indeed must be purged. This was not the case for the DA:O circle, where the head was not rotten.

[DKJaigen]

Lynata wrote...

It comes down to whether you'd rather oppress a minority or allow entire communities to be threatened. Demonic possession and mages abusing their power are just as much a fact as the incidents involving templars committing crimes against those under their care - just that the latter is generally seen as less dangerous to Thedas as a whole.

People are also very quick to forget that there's a big difference between Kirkwall and other Templar garrisons, influenced by the local Veil being much thinner and the region sporting many more blood mages than elsewhere as well as the commander in charge being influenced by a corrupting artefact and the First Enchanter covering up forbidden magic. There are laws against mage abuse - it's just that in Kirkwall, the situation between templars and mages has deteriorated so far that many people on both sides don't care anymore for the cooperation that the Circles *should* be about.

Scaling down the issue to "templars are evil, stop oppressing the mages!" is an extremely simplified, biased and naive perspective, imo.

From a sheer pragmatism point i say the templars cause far more damage then good. By actively preventing mages from doing any kind of research into demons they are making mages a lot more dangerous then they should. Over the last 1000 years the circles have not advanced and this has hurt society overall.

[Lynata]

DKJaigen wrote...
From a sheer pragmatism point i say the templars cause far more damage then good. By actively preventing mages from doing any kind of research into demons they are making mages a lot more dangerous then they should. Over the last 1000 years the circles have not advanced and this has hurt society overall.

How would you say that Tevinter mages - who are free to do pretty much whatever they want - are less dangerous than Andrastean mages?

The issue might be "less grey" if we'd know that Tevinter mages somehow found a way to make themselves immune to demonic corruption. From all I can see, however, "researching demons" usually ends up with crazy mages trying to kill people.

[DKJaigen]

Lynata wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
From a sheer pragmatism point i say the templars cause far more damage then good. By actively preventing mages from doing any kind of research into demons they are making mages a lot more dangerous then they should. Over the last 1000 years the circles have not advanced and this has hurt society overall.

How would you say that Tevinter mages - who are free to do pretty much whatever they want - are less dangerous than Andrastean mages?

The issue might be "less grey" if we'd know that Tevinter mages somehow found a way to make themselves immune to demonic corruption. From all I can see, however, "researching demons" usually ends up with crazy mages trying to kill people.

I dont care about tevinter. The tevinters act like a bunch of dicks because its their culture not their magic.

Alos you argument is not solid. because all the magical research that gone wrong is clandestine and outside the circle. Thats because the templars do not allow it. and such the root of the problem is the templars and the chantry. If the mages where allowed to research magic with the proper resources and security measures these tragedies could have been averted.

But right now  time is running out. The tevinter imperium is researching and sooner or later it will find magic that will allow it to dominate Thedas again. Ignorance is not a strenght. Thats why i support the mages. Templars are endangering the thedas way of life while claiming to protect it.

[Lynata]

DKJaigen wrote...
I dont care about tevinter. The tevinters act like a bunch of dicks because its their culture not their magic.

Interesting. I for one think their culture is because of magic. You know, the strong ruling the weak, and the (morally, not necesssarily demonical) corrupting influence of power.

You claim my argument about history and the current situation isn't solid, yet yours is entirely based on the off chance that it might be possible that some day someone will find a way for protection against demons. Something I don't see any reason for actually even being possible. Don't you think that the magisters of the Tevinter Imperium wouldn't have done so already over the past centuries? They had the freedom and the means, and certainly the motivation - after all, nobody really wants to get possessed, given that it means surrendering all they have achieved.

Ignorance isn't a strength, but carelessness isn't either. 

Bearbeitet von Lynata, 26 März 2012 - 02:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Darkrider296 wrote...

The Gallows has some screwed up stuff going on. Listen to what the mages walking by you say. Listen to what the Tranquil's walking by you say. Listen to the whippings and sceams you hear when you go by those gates in the Gallows. You can kill all the bad Templars you want yet the sexual abuse doesn't stop even in Act III its mentioned. Mages are made Tranquil for political purposes more and more. Also look for a scene involving an elf who sees his lover turned into a Tranquil. That scene was beyond disgusting. Screw the Templars they prove what Flemeth said. Sometimes the hearts of men hold things darker than any demon.

I'd say that people have different reasons for their decisions in supporting either faction, although it seems like the fans put more thought into the dichotomy between the templars and the mages than the creators did in Dragon Age II. I would have preferred to see Orsino and Meredith handled like Skyrim's Ulfric and Tullius - as flawed leaders who aren't villified simply for being antagonists (if the protagonist sides against them), rather than the cardboard cutout lunatics that Dragon Age II turns them into. The general mages and templars aren't much different, either: the mages are mostly insane, while the templars are mostly sadistic.

That said, I'm personally not a supporter of the Chantry controlled Circles, and I've had my (ethnically Antivan) Surana Warden advocate the emancipation of the Circle of Ferelden as his royal boon, and my (ethnically Antivan) apostate Hawke protect the mages from Knight-Commander Meredith's Right of Annulment because I didn't agree with killing hundreds of mages for an act that none of them were responsible for.

While I don't think that all templars are bad (because we did have Ser Thrask to contrast vile templars like Alrik and Karras, even if the creators did kill Thrask off in an asinine manner because we are forced down a plot railroad of sheer stupidity), I simply don't agree with what the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars do to the mages. Cullen addressing how the templars have "divine right" over mages illustrates one of the primary problems with placing a religious order that preaches intolerance against mages and gives them absolute authority over virutally all mages across the continent. I don't dismiss the reasons that people have in their choices; people have their own reasons for siding with either the templars or the mages, but I ultimately side with the mage cause. If Dragon Age 2 had presented the opportunity, my Antivan (the Latino equivalent of Thedas) Hawke would have become the Che Guevara of the mage revolution.

[DKJaigen]

Lynata wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
I dont care about tevinter. The tevinters act like a bunch of dicks because its their culture not their magic.

Interesting. I for one think their culture is because of magic. You know, the strong ruling the weak, and the (morally, not necesssarily demonical) corrupting influence of power.

You claim my argument about history and the current situation isn't solid, yet yours is entirely based on the off chance that it might be possible that some day someone will find a way for protection against demons. Something I don't see any reason for actually even being possible. Don't you think that the magisters of the Tevinter Imperium wouldn't have done so already over the past centuries? They had the freedom and the means, and certainly the motivation - after all, nobody really wants to get possessed, given that it means surrendering all they have achieved.

The strong ruling the weak is a cultural fenomenon so you wrong on that. magic is not a thought altering substance.

As for the imperium not finidng a cure is irrelevant. Even they had no full mastery over magic. But currently several mages gave managed to perform feats that goes against established magical theory.So their is a lot to learn. In short the templars have unknowingly put thedas in very great danger danger.

Ignorance isn't a strength, but carelessness isn't either. 

LOL? You can not be carefull if you are ignorant.

[Tatinger]

Treble Charger has made the ultimate, anti-Anders, anthem: "Hundred Million".

[Lynata]

DKJaigen wrote...
The strong ruling the weak is a cultural fenomenon so you wrong on that. magic is not a thought altering substance.

Magic is power and power corrupts. Both history and present day society of our real world are proof enough that anyone should be able to see it unfortunately holds true more often than not.

It may not apply to the Dalish or some of the more communal human tribes (who hence have not as big of a problem with their mages), but it certainly applies to the human nations of Thedas, and I don't see any indication of this changing. Greed, jealousy, egoism and pride are real. This is just how "civilized" humans tick, and no amount of idealism is going to change this uncomfortable fact, so it needs to be accounted for.

DKJaigen wrote...
As for the imperium not finidng a cure is irrelevant. Even they had no full mastery over magic. But currently several mages gave managed to perform feats that goes against established magical theory.So their is a lot to learn. In short the templars have unknowingly put thedas in very great danger danger.

Not as great a danger as mages have. I realize your motivation is to free mages from the oppressive conditions they are subjected to as part of the Chantry's efforts to protect Thedas, but neglecting the risk magic poses and blindly believing that "it won't happen again" isn't gonna cut it.

In fact, I do believe it is exactly this attitude that causes most mages to fall prey to their own hubris and end up possessed.  Even Archmage Wynne has shown to be vulnerable to demonic possession; the assumption that you could have a "lab" of mages somehow researching demonology in a pursuit of some kind of safeguard - which even the Dalish do not have - and expect that everything goes well just sounds dangerously naive.
I recommend you read "Asunder", it contains a great deal of valuable insight on this subject.

Anyways, when you say that even the Tevinter Magisters - with their nigh-unlimited resources and liberties - did not have "full mastery over magic", why do you think this would be a no-brainer once Circle mages go free? I cannot follow this line of reasoning at all. Did it occur to you that possession is a problem that, just maybe, possibly, cannot ever be solved?

DKJaigen wrote...
LOL? You can not be carefull if you are ignorant.

See, it's a matter of perspectives. The templars (and not just them) would say you are ignorant about the dangers of magic. 

Bearbeitet von Lynata, 26 März 2012 - 05:04 .

[Darkrider296]

I actually like to use Tevinter as an example of Magic being controlled within a society. Yes Tevinter is evil for its slavery and practices of blood magic going behind the scenes. BUT it does not have abominations running around un-controlled. Its still a functioning society, even if it has some serious moral issues. We need to try and emulate Tevinter just without the evil aspects. Its not impossible to have mages living free without society crumbling chaos. Where Tevinter goes wrong is that its culture puts too much emphases on power and strength therefore encouraging people to be immoral.

[miniy2j]

I've always seen the mage plight like an x-men comic and mutant registration. Which is an issue I'm torn on, I mean you have Magneto and a bunch of other mutant villains trying to regular folks so that mutants can be in power and then you have the x-men...and several other x-something or rathers trying to make sure that they aren't in power. Instead of moving all the mutants to Canada, you know where people probably wouldn't care one way or another, they stay in America and moan and go it's not fair that THEY have to register their powers. Some of these people are walking atomic bombs and weapons of mass destruction. Mind control is real, and people are being killed in these super hero brawls in the street and the rampant destruction of property is probably costing the tax payers billions upon billions of dollars.

So yes I believe in mutant registration has a place and purpose, you can't deny the trouble the mutants get into, as long as it doesn't devolve into concentration camps and there is a strong mutant policing policy with mutants and other super powered heroes working together to take down the threat of terrorists.

So for the whole mage issue, I think it should be the same. They should all have to register get their phylacteries taken in, and all be required to stay in the tower till they're 18 or 21. Slowly being reintegrated into society after they pass their harrowing. They should be trained to have a job when they get out, I don't see why people should keep a potentially good in society locked up for all eternity. They should be instructed to use their powers, their families should be allowed to visit them constantly. I honestly the good Anders did, before he went all crazy terrorist on us in the third act. Imagine if there were more healer mages who were working their magic, the people who are good at force magic in the armies, or just mages who might never want to use their powers. I think that's a compromise, that people can get behind on. The templar's should hunt down terrorists, and have mages helping them.

[Always Alice]

DKJaigen wrote...

From a sheer pragmatism point i say the templars cause far more damage then good. By actively preventing mages from doing any kind of research into demons they are making mages a lot more dangerous then they should. Over the last 1000 years the circles have not advanced and this has hurt society overall.

I distinctly recall the Divine supporting Pharamond's research in Asunder.

[DKJaigen]

Lynata wrote...


Magic is power and power corrupts. Both history and present day society of our real world are proof enough that anyone should be able to see it unfortunately holds true more often than not.

It may not apply to the Dalish or some of the more communal human tribes (who hence have not as big of a problem with their mages), but it certainly applies to the human nations of Thedas, and I don't see any indication of this changing. Greed, jealousy, egoism and pride are real. This is just how "civilized" humans tick, and no amount of idealism is going to change this uncomfortable fact, so it needs to be accounted for.

Wrong. Myself am a superintendent within the police corps. I have enough knowledge and influence to grow filthy rich if i abused my power. Do you now why i dont abuse that power? for the same reason dalish mages dont abuse theirs: they wish to serve the people. And yet templars strip every identity away. A mage in the circle will feel no loyalty to the people king or country. And as such templars are unwittingly creating an army of monsters. 

In fact, I do believe it is exactly this attitude that causes most mages to fall prey to their own hubris and end up possessed.  Even Archmage Wynne has shown to be vulnerable to demonic possession; the assumption that you could have a "lab" of mages somehow researching demonology in a pursuit of some kind of safeguard - which even the Dalish do not have - and expect that everything goes well just sounds dangerously naive.
I recommend you read "Asunder", it contains a great deal of valuable insight on this subject.

The dalish dont have the resources in a nomadic society.  And i did  read asunder and the whole demon thing could have been better contained if the templar commander and the divine where not in a power struggle.
And shows once again that the chantry is more comfortable with its power then it should be.
The entire project was once again fairly clandestine project. If it had proper supervision it may not have ended in such a mess.

Anyways, when you say that even the Tevinter Magisters - with their nigh-unlimited resources and liberties - did not have "full mastery over magic", why do you think this would be a no-brainer once Circle mages go free? I cannot follow this line of reasoning at all. Did it occur to you that possession is a problem that, just maybe, possibly, cannot ever be solved?

So the mages should not try? Look at your own computer. If you told somebody a hunderd years ago that we would be able create a huge information network they would say you are insane. Same thing applies here. And no the tevinter imperium did not have full mastery over magic or have you forgotten that the empire could not figure out the eluvian.

See, it's a matter of perspectives. The templars (and not just them) would say you are ignorant about the dangers of magic. 

I dont take advise from ignorant idiots and neither should the mages.

[Always Alice]

DKJaigen wrote...

 A mage in the circle will feel no loyalty to the people king or country.

If you read Asunder,then why say this line when Wynne clearly states the opposite? Also,in DAO if you return to the circle after dealing with the uprising you can hear two mages talking about how they want to prove to Ferelden that mages would do their part to help their country.

[Lynata]

miniy2j wrote...
So for the whole mage issue, I think it should be the same. They should all have to register get their phylacteries taken in, and all be required to stay in the tower till they're 18 or 21. Slowly being reintegrated into society after they pass their harrowing. They should be trained to have a job when they get out, I don't see why people should keep a potentially good in society locked up for all eternity.

Were it that easy. Even in the Circles we see young mages submitting to the lure of power - such as Jowan, who apparently takes up blood magic because he was jealous that he couldn't be as good as the Mage Warden.

Then there's no such thing such as "arcane forensics". There is no reliable way to keep track of what a mage is doing - what he might be researching, what his projects are - unless you keep them where you can see them. Even then we see Circle mages dabbling in forbidden magic, but at least in this case the resulting bloodshed may often remain limited to the Tower itself with no harm for the common people.

That a mage has the potential to turn anyone into a mindless puppet without other people even noticing makes the whole subject extremely complicated. With magic, people generally only notice that something is wrong after the fact, and by that time the cost of lifes often has been too high already.

This is not to say that the Circle system couldn't be improved, but I remain convinced that mages would need to be watched carefully, just like you'd watch anyone born with a WMD. That many of them may not wish to use it changes nothing about that some of them will.

DKJaigen wrote...
Wrong. Myself am a superintendent within the police corps. I have enough knowledge and influence to grow filthy rich if i abused my power. Do you now why i dont abuse that power? for the same reason dalish mages dont abuse theirs: they wish to serve the people.

An admirable mindset. Yet I am sure you will not contest the fact that there are also "crooked cops", and it shouldn't be hard to imagine what their motivations are.

Police officers, politicians, clerics, corporate managers - everyone with some sort of power is susceptible to the lure of corruption, and it's no different with the mages in Dragon Age. Mages only have it extra hard because (1) they are vulnerable to demonic possession even if they are genuinely good people and (2) their power is such that it and by extension they are seen as far more dangerous than ordinary men.
Well, that and this bit of history about mages almost destroying the world.

DKJaigen wrote...
So the mages should not try? Look at your own computer. If you told somebody a hunderd years ago that we would be able create a huge information network they would say you are insane. Same thing applies here.

Evolution of knowledge. When an idea becomes feasible, it will be pursued. Evidently, this has yet to be the case in Thedas. Where would you even start - do you have an idea, given that you are so sure the possibility even exists?

At the same time you are neglecting the risk this sort of research comes with. Anyone trying to work on this subject is virtually gambling with their body and soul - it'd be like medical science which is only possible when the researchers work in a contaminated lab! Will they find the cure in time? Will anyone even volunteer for this job?

DKJaigen wrote...
And no the tevinter imperium did not have full mastery over magic or have you forgotten that the empire could not figure out the eluvian.

So why do you think it would be different with freed Circle mages? This is the part in your argument I do not understand, and you seem somewhat elusive to explain it. From all it sounds like, it just comes off like a naive wish. "Wouldn't it be nice if ..." - Yes, it would, just like immortality, equality and a total absence of prejudice.

Well, "nice" from an in-setting PoV, of course. As a player, I think that magic actually having a downside makes this setting much more interesting than the usual D&D cliché where spells are just a tool like the next guy's sword. We'd lose out on a lot of grey elements and interesting social issues in Thedas were it so, and nothing is as boring as a setting where everything is black and white.

Always Alice wrote...
Also,in DAO if you return to the circle after dealing with the uprising you can hear two mages talking about how they want to prove to Ferelden that mages would do their part to help their country.

*nods* The Ferelden Circle also secretly supplied the resistance fighters with enchanted items during the Orlesian occupation.

Bearbeitet von Lynata, 26 März 2012 - 08:07 .

[esper]

The ironic part is that Jowan does far less damage with his blood magic than he does with ordinary poison.
He only knocks out the templars in the origin, yet nearly kills one of the most important person in Fereldan with poison.

[katiebour]

Lynata wrote...

Just to add something:

katiebour wrote...
EVERYONE is at risk.  And if EVERYONE (including mages) is smart, moral, and takes the appropriate precautions, then EVERYONE will be safe.

This is quite simply not how it works. Aside from becoming a Tranquil, there is no way for 100% safety against demonic possession - not ever. Even the Harrowing only shows that a mage has the potential to resist a demon, yet that doesn't mean he won't ever be turned. There will always be a certain risk. And as even the mages know, there are quite simply a lot of humans who do not have the willpower - a Circle's enchanters are responsible for submitting apprentices who are deemed to "not ever be ready" for the Rite of Tranquility; I do not think this is a decision they are making lightly.

Also, I do not think it is even possible for non-mages to get possessed by demons just because they are sleeping.

If you remember the possessed templar in DA2, this is what Cullen - a veteran with experience - says about it:

"I knew he was involved in something sinister, but this ... is it even possible? Normally we only worry that mages will fall victim to possession. I have heard of blood mages or demons in solid form who could summon others into unwilling hosts."

If you investigate, it turns out that indeed these possessed templars were the result of a group of blood mages capturing recruits for an "implantation" ritual.

From the DARPG (Set 1 Player's Guide, page 47 "The Dangers of Magic"):

"For reasons still unknown, mages attract the attention of the Fade's native spirits. Some sages speculate that the mages' native ability to use magic makes them appear differently in the Fade. Unlike other living beings, when a mage enters the Fade (voluntarily or not) he is able to act normally, and spirits may be able to sense this difference in them. However it occurs, malevolent spirits (such as demons) that wish to enter the world of the living are drawn to mages like beacons. Should a mage encounter such a demon in the Fade, it will attempt to possess him. Some demons try to use force, but others cajole or trick their prey, offering power or nearly anything to get their way.

The result is inevitably the same: an abomination is created. This is the name given to possessed mages, though it is not a physical possession. The demon is still in the Fade, but so is the mage's own spirit; the demon twists and controls the mage's body through that captive spirit. The demon sees through the body's eyes, channels his power through it, and is able to use the mage's magic in ways the captive would never have imagined. Once the demon is in control, an abomination becomes a mad creature that goes on a rampage until stopped. The more powerful the demon, the worse the abomination, and historical records tell of abominations that have ravaged entire settlements and continued to terrorize the countryside for years.

So it is that the fears of the common people are not unjustified. All mages are susceptible to demonic possession, and even the strongest must stay on their guard. This is why the Chantry created the Circle of Magi in the first place. If mages must exist so their power can be wielded against the darkspawn, so be it. The Chantry insists, however, that they must be watched carefully and that those who endanger Thedas be dealt with before possession can take place."

In short: normal dreamers get ignored in the Fade; the demons cannot interact with them (as their presence is entirely passive), so they are uninteresting, perhaps cannot even be sensed by the spirits. Ergo they are not at risk.

Lastly, I think that comparing blackmail to total mind control is an extremely simplified perspective. One lets you keep your free will and thus the chance to break free again, the other simply turns you into a puppet, without anyone noticing. This is what makes it so scary.

I just replayed through the Circle Tower in DA:O, and I have to say that even abominations are not mindless.  Many of them speak and argue rationally- see the Sloth Demon and Uldred himself for canon abominations who are not at all mindless.  Power-hungry and evil, yes, but not mindless.

And why did Uldred take over the Tower with blood magic?  What was it that drove him to such an extreme measure?

If you talk to Wynne, she says that Loghain promised Uldred freedom from the Templars.  Yes, Uldred turned to evil because of the oppression within the Tower, and many of the mages who followed him (talk to the blood mage on the second floor) did so simply because they wished to be free of the Templars.

Take away the oppressive, evil system and you take away 98% of mages' reasons to dabble in dangerous, forbidden magic.  And the other 2% can be dealt with.

As for possession, Lady Harimann in DA2 was not a mage.  But she was power-hungry and evil, and thought she could control the demon (because she WASN'T a mage) and dealt with it.  As a result her entire family (all non-mages) became possessed.

Here's my understanding- demons are generally trapped in the Fade.  They can't get out, most of the time, except through mages (or tears in the Fade, or places where the curtain between the Fade and reality is thinned- i.e Sundermount), who have a connection to the Fade.  Think of it as an internet connection, if you will, between the Fade and reality, and the strength of a mage depends upon his bandwidth.

Now because mages have this connection, a two-way connection that allows them to both "upload" themselves to the Fade and "download" demons to reality, they are tempting targets for demons who wish to escape.  Your average dreamer, in contrast, has a one-way connection, allowing only "upload" when they dream.  Dwarves and Tranquil have no connection at all.

The exception to this rule include Templars, who by taking lyrium strengthen a (perhaps genetically latent?) connection that they've trained to go from upload to upload/download.  This explains why Templars can create phylacteries (admitted to be blood magic as in Asunder) and why they have magical abilities on par with mages.  This also explains why Alistair, who's never taken lyrium, still has the magical abilities that the Templars train.  Templar training itself turns their connection from upload to upload/download, and lyrium increases the bandwidth of mage and templar alike.

This would easily explain why the Templars made such an easy target for Tarohne and her blood mages- they were already halfway to being mages themselves, by virtue of their training.  I'd imagine that other people with latent upload/download connections (carriers of the mage gene, such as Carver) would also be easy targets for such manipulation.  This explains the ensorcelled Templar in the Circle Tower who was enthralled by a desire demon to believe that he had a home and family, and all of the possessed Templars in the Gallows when you fight your way through at the end of DA2.

The other exception to this rule is non-magical people who use summoning arts to bring demons over, without the aid of a latent connection.  Pharamond in Asunder is Tranquil, both his upload and download capacities severed, and yet he manages to summon demons that destroy the outpost.  Pharamond himself proves that non-mages can be possessed, as can anyone else who happens to be around when demons are set free from the Fade.

Now with the Tranquil, the sticking point is that a demon possessing a Tranquil reconnects his severed connection.  Think of it as retying the puppet strings, so to speak.  The severed end of the line waves around in the Fade like a cut cord, and someone or something else from the Fade can catch the line and reconnect it, undoing Tranquility.  A person from reality only sees the cut end, and has no way of retying the connection from that side.

The part that really, really, really pisses me off is that Tranquility is then without reason.  There is no reason to Tranquil a mage, because it renders him no safer than any other person.  Any summoned demon can still possess him, and Pharamond and Lady Harimann both prove that non-mages can summon demons.  And yet they STILL take Pharamond back and re-Tranquil him, as if he were any safer, as if destroying him twice and removing his humanity would do anything to stop him from being a threat.  Pharamond and Connor are also both living examples of the fact that even possession can be undone.

Cullen says what he says because he doesn't understand the exact mechanics of possession, and is simply parroting the comforting lies that the Templars are fed by their Order.  Probably helps them sleep better at night imagining that they're actually doing something to protect against demons.  And after all, the Chantry makes so much money from the Tranquil and their runes- hate to mess up a good business with something like ethics, right?

Mages simply have the inborn ability to "download" demons to reality, but they aren't the only ones who can summon them, and a good mage won't do it, just like a good person won't do it.  So train your mages, along with your general populace, to be moral people and to protect against demons, and you win.

Bearbeitet von katiebour, 26 März 2012 - 08:51 .

[Lynata]

esper wrote...
The ironic part is that Jowan does far less damage with his blood magic than he does with ordinary poison.
He
only knocks out the templars in the origin, yet nearly kills one of the
most important person in Fereldan with poison.

Depending on what choices the player picks, Jowan also seems to have at least the capacity to become a good guy, this should not be left unmentioned. Blood magic doesn't automatically turn people into villains, it just comes with an even greater potential of abuse...

Still, a good example of what can bring people to busy themselves with forbidden spells. There may be better ones.

Bearbeitet von Lynata, 26 März 2012 - 08:42 .

[Lynata]

katiebour wrote...
I just replayed through the Circle Tower in DA:O, and I have to say that even abominations are not mindless.  Many of them speak and argue rationally- see the Sloth Demon and Uldred himself for canon abominations who are not at all mindless.  Power-hungry and evil, yes, but not mindless.

I'd suppose Sloth Demons are actual demons summoned into the real world, and not just demons possessing a body hence forming an abomination. There are also more examples for possessed beings that can talk, quite intelligently so, but this seems to depend on the power of the demon. Or it may depend on the degree of how "tight" the demon's bond to the body are? Hmm.

katiebour wrote...
Take away the oppressive, evil system and you take away 98% of mages' reasons to dabble in dangerous, forbidden magic.  And the other 2% can be dealt with.

We could argue about the numbers (especially looking at Tevinter), but in the end: How exactly would you deal with the "2"% if you'd lack the means to control them?

katiebour wrote...
As for possession, Lady Harimann in DA2 was not a mage.  But she was power-hungry and evil, and thought she could control the demon (because she WASN'T a mage) and dealt with it.  As a result her entire family (all non-mages) became possessed.

Are you sure she wasn't a mage? I've not played this DLC, so all I can go by is her wiki page.
Not that it would have made any difference for the outcome, see the Codex entry on the Right of Annulment. Mages are quite capable of losing control over the demons they summon.

katiebour wrote...
This explains why Templars can create phylacteries (admitted to be blood magic as in Asunder) [...]

I thought phylacteries were created by other Circle mages or the Tranquil, actually. Then again, I haven't yet finished the book completely, so maybe there's still a revelation awaiting me. 

katiebour wrote...
This also explains why Alistair, who's never taken lyrium, still has the magical abilities that the Templars train.

This is either wrong or it's been retconned. As per David Gaider, no lyrium = no templar abilities.

"Even if Templar magic was recognized as spellcasting, it's not innate to the Templars, if they just stopped taking lyrium eventually they would lose the ability. Although as Alistair proves, they can use the ability for a long time afterwards."
-- [source]

katiebour wrote...
This would easily explain why the Templars made such an easy target for Tarohne and her blood mages- they were already halfway to being mages themselves, by virtue of their training.

I don't think they were "easy targets". They were trapped in a magical forcefield and bombarded with mind-eroding spells; this would turn anyone sooner or later. In fact, it seems as if templars actually have an above-average resistance against this compared to the common people ... which makes sense, when you consider that they are trained to resist whatever a mage can throw at them. As shown in both games, this is no perfect safety, but it's better than nothing.

Also, if templars would work similar to mages in the Fade, they'd be "active" dreamers as well. As exemplified by Evangeline's utter cluelessness about that plane, and as explained in the DARPG on mages being the only ones active in the Fade, this is not the case.

On a funny sidenote, the latter was said to trigger a bit of an awkward moment for the Chantry as
it teaches that the souls of deceased humans travel through the Fade to go to the Maker - and then the
mages were like "uh, actually, we didn't see no souls". 

katiebour wrote...
The part that really, really, really pisses me off is that Tranquility is then without reason.  There is no reason to Tranquil a mage, because it renders him no safer than any other person.

Ah, but the big difference is that mages face a risk of possession every single night they go to sleep, whereas ... well, how often do you think is the average Thedan commoner encountering not only an actual demon who managed to break through the Veil himself, but a demon who also retains the cleverness and the time to try and force himself into a sentient being in the real world?

This is the major difference. You have a single case where Tranquility didn't help to prevent possession. A single case in several centuries. And this case only came about due to the combination of several external factors, such as the Veil's weakness on-site.

katiebour wrote...
Cullen says what he says because he doesn't understand the exact mechanics of possession, and is simply parroting the comforting lies that the Templars are fed by their Order.  Probably helps them sleep better at night imagining that they're actually doing something to protect against demons.

Maybe. But maybe his insights are still closer to the truth than our speculations, many of whom are just as fueled by personal bias like the desire for mage freedom. All I know is that he is a veteran templar who has seen quite a bit.

Bearbeitet von Lynata, 26 März 2012 - 09:22 .