1194 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinshikai]

LOL! Oh this is getting good.

But in all seriousness I too am a more moderate viewer after going to the gallows. I believe that what happened in the gallows should not be allowed to happen. This would require that the chantry oversight be removed, and the templars replaced with guardians that place duty over faith. However I do not believe that the mages could have complete freedom.

The only alternative that I could see is making the Circle a school for mages that do not have someone to teach them (Morrigan,Bethany, Hawke). Once they show a ability to reset a demon. they could be integrated into society where their powers could be useful. An example of this could be fire fighters, in the mage origin we see a Enchanter put out a fire using an ice spell. this could be beneficial in controlling fire damage during break out.

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
Where did I say that there were?

You did say, if mages could easily get rid of demons, there would be lot less of demons (unless you meant something else by "them."). That aside, it'd be an interesting question in and of itself: are demons finite in number? If there is no end to demons, any mage is in constant danger of being possessed, no matter what he/she does.

What I meant was that if saying no to a demons temptations was easy then there'd be a lot less abominations.

Of course, relative to the total number of mages in Thedas there might not be very many abominations, really.  We as the PC put ourselves in every lousy situation within range - so it's to be expected that bad stuff will happen where we can see it.  For the rest of the world, it doesn't seem to be an issue very often. 

If only 0.5% of mages will ever become an abomination, and many of those will do so because they are tormented by the Chantry and see no other recourse...  perhaps circles are overkill.

[Lazy Jer]

GavrielKay wrote...

Of course, relative to the total number of mages in Thedas there might not be very many abominations, really.  We as the PC put ourselves in every lousy situation within range - so it's to be expected that bad stuff will happen where we can see it.  For the rest of the world, it doesn't seem to be an issue very often. 

If only 0.5% of mages will ever become an abomination, and many of those will do so because they are tormented by the Chantry and see no other recourse...  perhaps circles are overkill.

Well we know that the mage-to-abomination ration has to have been high enough to cause the Chantry to come up with it's stance on magic being dangerous in the first place. 

[dragonflight288]

Well we know that the mage-to-abomination ration has to have been high enough to cause the Chantry to come up with it's stance on magic being dangerous in the first place.

That and the history of being slaves to mages during the height of the Tevinter Imperium. And that the Chantry was only created 100 years AFTER Andraste's death by an Orlesian warlord who chose one of many Andrastian cults to support because they supported him.

[Silfren]

Lazy Jer wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Of course, relative to the total number of mages in Thedas there might not be very many abominations, really.  We as the PC put ourselves in every lousy situation within range - so it's to be expected that bad stuff will happen where we can see it.  For the rest of the world, it doesn't seem to be an issue very often. 

If only 0.5% of mages will ever become an abomination, and many of those will do so because they are tormented by the Chantry and see no other recourse...  perhaps circles are overkill.

Well we know that the mage-to-abomination ration has to have been high enough to cause the Chantry to come up with it's stance on magic being dangerous in the first place. 

Actually no, we  don't know that.  It's pure speculation.  We know that the Chantry teaches that mages are so inherently dangerous that the Circle system is absolutely necessary in its current form.  We don't actually know if it is actually true that mages are that dangerous, and we don't know that the Circle system as it currently exists is the only viable method to deal with the potential danger.  

The only fact we have in evidence is that the Chantry uses its claims about mages and Andraste's teachings to enforce its subjugation of mages.  We don't actually know what Andraste herself had to say, or whether her teachings had as much focus on magic as the Chantry and her later followers would have us believe.  Everything els is tied to Chantry propaganda, and the Chantry is hardly a disinterested party without a vested motive for maintaining its own powerbase, so their doctrines are just a wee bit suspect.

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Of course, relative to the total number of mages in Thedas there might not be very many abominations, really.  We as the PC put ourselves in every lousy situation within range - so it's to be expected that bad stuff will happen where we can see it.  For the rest of the world, it doesn't seem to be an issue very often. 

If only 0.5% of mages will ever become an abomination, and many of those will do so because they are tormented by the Chantry and see no other recourse...  perhaps circles are overkill.

Well we know that the mage-to-abomination ration has to have been high enough to cause the Chantry to come up with it's stance on magic being dangerous in the first place. 

Actually the codex on the original formation of the circles reads much more peacefully than that.  The mages wanted to be able to practice and learn and the Chantry didn't want them to do that while living among normals.  So, the mages agreed to live in circles in order to be allowed the freedom to study.  I never saw that it had anything to do with abominations.  Of course once the mages placed themselves in the care of the Templars things didn't continue on quite so peacefully.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...
If only 0.5% of mages will ever become an abomination, and many of those will do so because they are tormented by the Chantry and see no other recourse...  perhaps circles are overkill.

Except Gadier confirmed that before the circels, there were a lot more abominations running around the countryside killing people. In essence, the cirlces made the world a safer place.


Let's say:
- no Cirlces: 1000 people die every year in mage-related incident
- Circles: 100 mages die every year (probably too high a figure, but what the heck)

Which is better?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

Actually no, we  don't know that.  It's pure speculation.  We know that the Chantry teaches that mages are so inherently dangerous that the Circle system is absolutely necessary in its current form.  We don't actually know if it is actually true that mages are that dangerous, and we don't know that the Circle system as it currently exists is the only viable method to deal with the potential danger. 

No, we actually do know.
It doens't take a rocket scientist to figure out just how dangerous mages are.

A single child mage almsot destroyed an entire village. We have storeis of abominations tearing apart villages..soemtimes even KINGOMS (teh facebook game).
You have to be living in some prettty big denial to deny that.

[Lazy Jer]

Silfren wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Well we know that the mage-to-abomination ration has to have been high enough to cause the Chantry to come up with it's stance on magic being dangerous in the first place. 

Actually no, we  don't know that.  It's pure speculation.  We know that the Chantry teaches that mages are so inherently dangerous that the Circle system is absolutely necessary in its current form.  We don't actually know if it is actually true that mages are that dangerous, and we don't know that the Circle system as it currently exists is the only viable method to deal with the potential danger.  

The only fact we have in evidence is that the Chantry uses its claims about mages and Andraste's teachings to enforce its subjugation of mages.  We don't actually know what Andraste herself had to say, or whether her teachings had as much focus on magic as the Chantry and her later followers would have us believe.  Everything els is tied to Chantry propaganda, and the Chantry is hardly a disinterested party without a vested motive for maintaining its own powerbase, so their doctrines are just a wee bit suspect.

Well I think we can logically assume that the Chantry came up with their claims about magic being dangerous is based on something.  I mean I seriously doubt that early Chantry theologeans through darts at a wall full of different groups of people and decided to pick mages because his set of darts tended to bank to left a bit. 

The Chantry may be particularly biased against magic due to it's history against Tevinter, but that doesn't change the fact that mages can become aboninations.  The basis for magic being thought of as dangerous has got to have at least some link to that.

[GavrielKay]

Lazy Jer wrote...
The Chantry may be particularly biased against magic due to it's history against Tevinter, but that doesn't change the fact that mages can become aboninations.  The basis for magic being thought of as dangerous has got to have at least some link to that.

Agreed.  The question is, have they overstated the danger and do they take actions far more extreme than the optimal?

[Lazy Jer]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
The Chantry may be particularly biased against magic due to it's history against Tevinter, but that doesn't change the fact that mages can become aboninations.  The basis for magic being thought of as dangerous has got to have at least some link to that.

Agreed.  The question is, have they overstated the danger and do they take actions far more extreme than the optimal?

I'm sure many of them have, and I'm sure that the Libertarians have understated the danger.  That's why I think that one of the good things the Circle does to is forces mages to gain an education, not only about their powers but about the various entities that seek to take advantage of those powers.

Personally I think the Mages Collective, or at least it's stated goal, is a step in the right direction. 

[Rinshikai]

I agree with you on the collective Lazy Jer. Its a shame the we don't know more about them.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
If only 0.5% of mages will ever become an abomination, and many of those will do so because they are tormented by the Chantry and see no other recourse...  perhaps circles are overkill.

Except Gadier confirmed that before the circels, there were a lot more abominations running around the countryside killing people. In essence, the cirlces made the world a safer place.


Let's say:
- no Cirlces: 1000 people die every year in mage-related incident
- Circles: 100 mages die every year (probably too high a figure, but what the heck)

Which is better?

The world was in complete turmoil back then so its not unsurprising that more abominations existed. also pulling numbers from nowhere doesnt help your case

[Lotion Soronarr]

Given the number of mages in proportion to the normal populace and the destructive potential of abominations, Id' say those numbers are generous.

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Given the number of mages in proportion to the normal populace and the destructive potential of abominations, Id' say those numbers are generous.

Yet, we are never given the exact numbers of any of those. We aren't given the exact number of mages in the each Circle, the exact population of the countries, the birthrate of mages in each country, the number of aposates (both free born and Circle runaways), the number of death caused by abominations, or how many of those death are caused by Circle abomination or aposate abomination.

All those numbers on your part is pure speculation.

Modifié par Urzon, 09 mai 2012 - 11:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Educated guss...

But it is CERTAIN that less people die with mages locked in the Circles.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Educated guss...

But it is CERTAIN that less people die with mages locked in the Circles.

Pulling more "facts" out of your ass? After a war the most common cause of death is either disease or starvation or bandits during the middle ages. Hey guess what mages can heal diseases and can use their magic to grow crops (proven in the dragon age comic before you ask).

[Koire]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
If only 0.5% of mages will ever become an abomination, and many of those will do so because they are tormented by the Chantry and see no other recourse...  perhaps circles are overkill.

Except Gadier confirmed that before the circels, there were a lot more abominations running around the countryside killing people. In essence, the cirlces made the world a safer place.

Except that is not what he said.

"As a matter of fact the Templars were once all part of a group called the Inquisition. There was an Inquisition in Thedas. It existed around the time that the Chantry started to come to be. This was a time after the First Blight, after Andraste's March, when there was chaos everywhere, the Imperium had broken apart, you had the Old God cults, so a lot of blood magic. There was a lot of chaos, you had the cults of Andraste...and the Inquisition sort of arose as a group of people who said "Enough is enough, somebody has to do something about this magic that is tearing apart the world." And when the Chantry came to be they went to the Inquisition and said "Hey, we're of the same mind on this, why don't we pull together" and that's when the Inquisition turned into the Seekers and the Templar Order. They kind of merged. It'd be interesting to see if the Inquisition ever rose up again." © 

DKJaigen wrote...
Hey guess what mages can heal diseases and can use their magic to grow crops (proven in the dragon age comic before you ask).

Can you tell me in which of the comics, please? There is a pretty long discussion on magic and its uses here, I though I could write it to the guys in that thread if that's true

Modifié par Koire, 09 mai 2012 - 04:06 .

[DKJaigen]

voila

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Fallstick

Of course it has to proven yet but so far this guy has no reason to lie about it.

[Vormaerin]

There is clearly no justification for the treatment that the mages in the Gallows received. But that is not the same thing as saying mages should be allowed to roam free. While abominations are certainly one reason why that is true, there are far more insidious reasons why it is true.

If all mages were free to do as they wished, there would be substantial political and economic problems. Every nobleman would want his pet wizard to help with his wars and intrigues. No wizards would be left in peace unless they were so badass everyone was too scared to try to bring them into service.

Even if a mage somehow escaped the shackles of noble patronage, he'd have to make a living somehow. And that living would be from selling magical things. If enough mages are doing that, then its going to disrupt the livelihoods of mundane craftsmen. If I'm busy making unbreakable, ever sharp swords or self mending clothes or whatever, I'm going to quickly drive the top mundane craftsmen out of business (or, at least, into a lower income bracket). Do you think they are going to take that lying down?

The Circles provide the mages with a luxurious lifestyle, freedom from the imposition of kings and nobles, and the ability to pretty much study whatever they want (other than a few dark magics). Of course, the cost is being cloistered. Some are fine with that, others are not.

What has happened, however, is that in some places the Templars have turned from guardians to jailors. Its worst in Kirkwall, because Kirkwall is a giant blood magic induced crazy-maker thanks to the Tevinter.

And every incident feeds the mutual distrust. That 1 in 100 mage who goes abomination and kills 10 templars or slaughters a village, leaves survivors who remember it was a mage who did that. So they are a little harsher the next time some mage skirts the edge of danger, which makes the mage feel more oppressed and angry. And more likely to react angrily next time. And around and around..

[dragonflight288]

There is clearly no justification for the treatment that the mages in the Gallows received. But that is not the same thing as saying mages should be allowed to roam free. While abominations are certainly one reason why that is true, there are far more insidious reasons why it is true.

If all mages were free to do as they wished, there would be substantial political and economic problems. Every nobleman would want his pet wizard to help with his wars and intrigues. No wizards would be left in peace unless they were so badass everyone was too scared to try to bring them into service.

Even if a mage somehow escaped the shackles of noble patronage, he'd have to make a living somehow. And that living would be from selling magical things. If enough mages are doing that, then its going to disrupt the livelihoods of mundane craftsmen. If I'm busy making unbreakable, ever sharp swords or self mending clothes or whatever, I'm going to quickly drive the top mundane craftsmen out of business (or, at least, into a lower income bracket). Do you think they are going to take that lying down?

The Circles provide the mages with a luxurious lifestyle, freedom from the imposition of kings and nobles, and the ability to pretty much study whatever they want (other than a few dark magics). Of course, the cost is being cloistered. Some are fine with that, others are not.

What has happened, however, is that in some places the Templars have turned from guardians to jailors. Its worst in Kirkwall, because Kirkwall is a giant blood magic induced crazy-maker thanks to the Tevinter.

And every incident feeds the mutual distrust. That 1 in 100 mage who goes abomination and kills 10 templars or slaughters a village, leaves survivors who remember it was a mage who did that. So they are a little harsher the next time some mage skirts the edge of danger, which makes the mage feel more oppressed and angry. And more likely to react angrily next time. And around and around..

Before I get into debate over this, I think I should mention I agree with you for the most part, but there are a few things I feel need to be looked at even more before we pass a few things off as a given.

I agree with the noble patronage part. It's all part of the political game every country seems to play no matter where they're from or what kind of political system they have. Whether that mage acts as a healer for that particular bann, arl, or teyrn, adviser in things magical, or even personal bodyguard. But for there to be that many fully trained mages for that many nobles, well mundanes outnumber mages by a lot, even if the number of mages is increasing.

Granted, I'm willing to bet that most noble families have had at least one mage in the family so that could be the family mage, should mages be given the right to be with their families. They would still need to be trained however, and not Connor style.

And the lore itself contradicts the self-sharpening stuff. Mages have to do things physically like everyone else (see Cardinal Rules of Magic codex). And most enchantments have to be done by a tranquil or a dwarf due to the dangers of working with lyrium. And that's what enchantment is, folding the lyrium rune into the weapon or armor (Bodhan says that in Origins when we first discuss enchantments with Sandal.) And tranquil mages offering enchantments are the main source of wealth for the circles since they don't get by on Charity, with magic being a curse and everything else the chantry teaches (see the Tranquil at Ostagar.)

So a mage would have to learn blacksmithing from a mundane in order to learn how to make weapons and armor, or even repair arms and armor, and then proceed to deal with the dangers of enchantment because of the lyrium itself. That alone would drive the prices for their goods much higher because it would take considerably longer and with a greater risk than just burns. I don't see many mages going into that style of crafting.

Mages may serve in other ways. Being a village healer, serving in the King's army, heck, they may even have mundane jobs and only use magic to help them out every now and then. Or they may do research for a lord (Wilhelm in Honnleath did research in demonology and the crystals in Shale...although I'm positive the demonology was a pet project and not something that had been commissioned)

And yes, it's true the circles can provide a luxurious lifestyle and may help keep mages safe from prejudiced mobs, but even the most gilded cages are just that, cages. Remove a mages choice to live freely just because of what they are, and you'll feed into the paranoia and desperation.

I recognize not every circle is like that, I mean Wynne and Finn both got leave to leave the Ferelden Circle on business because of their good behavior, but good behavior won't do a thing when the templars do decide to become jailors. One Knight-Commander can change the templar attitudes...or at least let more abuses pass. Gregoire seemed like a decent guy, who was not afraid to give his own templars a talking too (reprimanding Cullen for urging the Rite of Annulment even after we save Irving), but Meredith seemed to only see the dangers in the mages and let her templars run willy-nilly and we end up with sadists like Alrik raping and illegally tranquilizing mages, Kerras who looked for excuses to kill mages legally (and rapes mages as well, or it's heavily implied he does) and the actions of an apostate not even connected to the Circle led to the Annulment of the Circle irregardless of their behavior.

Templars, their abilities, and their experience hunting rogue blood mages, and regular mage criminals, are needed. But it has become exceedingly obvious they can't be trusted with guarding the mages since they can't guard them from themselves, or won't.

I also recognize that not every templar is like that. But when you have a religious order made up of drug addicted fanatics largely recruited for religious zeal and less for moral fiber (templar codex, explained so templars wouldn't question the difficult orders they would have to follow) it's kind of easy to point out the more than flawed members and easy to overlook the good ones who honestly are trying to do an honest day's work and help both the mages and the mundanes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And yes, it's true the circles can provide a luxurious lifestyle and may help keep mages safe from prejudiced mobs, but even the most gilded cages are just that, cages. Remove a mages choice to live freely just because of what they are, and you'll feed into the paranoia and desperation.

Life is a cage. All life follows restrictions. Mages have to follow more restrictions because of what they are and the danger tehy represent. It is necessary.  It's that simple.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Koire wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
If only 0.5% of mages will ever become an abomination, and many of those will do so because they are tormented by the Chantry and see no other recourse...  perhaps circles are overkill.

Except Gadier confirmed that before the circels, there were a lot more abominations running around the countryside killing people. In essence, the cirlces made the world a safer place.

Except that is not what he said.

"As a matter of fact the Templars were once all part of a group called the Inquisition. There was an Inquisition in Thedas. It existed around the time that the Chantry started to come to be. This was a time after the First Blight, after Andraste's March, when there was chaos everywhere, the Imperium had broken apart, you had the Old God cults, so a lot of blood magic. There was a lot of chaos, you had the cults of Andraste...and the Inquisition sort of arose as a group of people who said "Enough is enough, somebody has to do something about this magic that is tearing apart the world." And when the Chantry came to be they went to the Inquisition and said "Hey, we're of the same mind on this, why don't we pull together" and that's when the Inquisition turned into the Seekers and the Templar Order. They kind of merged. It'd be interesting to see if the Inquisition ever rose up again." ©

Except that IS what he said.. Altough in a different quote.

Which I'd now have to track down, as it was in one of the old mages/templars discussion thread.

Mages runing around frely = more deaths.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Educated guss...

But it is CERTAIN that less people die with mages locked in the Circles.

Pulling more "facts" out of your ass? After a war the most common cause of death is either disease or starvation or bandits during the middle ages. Hey guess what mages can heal diseases and can use their magic to grow crops (proven in the dragon age comic before you ask).

Don't be redicolous.

It's simple common sense (and confirmed). It's like asking me to pove that more poeple die during a natural disaster then when there isn't one.

With amges roaming free you get more abuse of magic, more abominations - and more importantly - all in areas where they can't be easily contained and stopped.
If an abomination or crazed mage happens in a circle, it is contained. At worst a few templars and mages die before they can stop it.
If that happens in a remote village? Say hello to the Connor scenario, with lots of dead and walking corpses.

The common folk will never let the mages roam free. And neither should they.
In fact, if DA ever goes that way, it will abandon all behavioral realism, and the setting will be dead to me.