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How can anyone support the Templars after visting the Gallows?


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#801
dragonflight288

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From my understanding these are some of the major problems with the Chantrys authority. Even when you have Justina trying reform the Circle. its not possible without the trust of those shes trying to help. As president Abraham Lincoln says " A house divided against itself can not stand." Justina may want to reform but she is not able to keep all the groups under her together. In the End she loses them all.


To quote Sun Tzu: He who tries to defend everything, ultimately defends nothing.

I like her and am glad she's trying to reform the circle, but the house is divided. She couldn't appease both the mages and the templars both. Mages wanted more rights or at the very least less restrictions, and the templars (and the Lord High Seeker) wanted the mages under tighter restrictions or just flat out killed. If she is going to ultimately choose a side to support in the war, she'll have to recognize that sacrifices will have to be made. No war is ever won without them. And sometimes you have to give up something in order to get something else.

Sun Tzu has another quote I like: If you know your capabilities but not your enemies, your job is only half done. If you know your enemies battle readiness but not your own, you job is only half done. If you know the readiness of both your troops and theirs, but have done nothing yet, your job is only half done. If you know their weaknesses but not yours, the job is only half done. If you know your strength but not theirs, your job is only half done. If you are ready and they aren't, your job is only half done.

#802
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Hanz54321 wrote...

Rinshikai wrote...

Overall I think that this task would better suited for the grey wardens. 


The Wardens have a job.  An important one.  Darkspawn.

I think what you are getting at really comes down to Chantry corruption.  The Chantry needs to choose more level headed fighters for Templars and needs to quit addicting them to lyrium to control them as an army.

The idea of Templars watching mages is fine.  But as Alistair says, the Templars real purpose is to be the Chantry's personal army.  That's where the neutrality issue becomes a mess.

I agree with your thoughts on a "neutral" group, but I disagree that it should be the Wardens.
 

I'd say the dwarves, they're resistant to magic so they'd make good 'guardians' and the mages could help them retake some of the lost thaigs.

#803
dragonflight288

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I'd say the dwarves, they're resistant to magic so they'd make good 'guardians' and the mages could help them retake some of the lost thaigs.


Then we'd have to get into the complicated caste system, and make up an entire new one. I'm sure the Casteless would be happy to step up and assume a role instead of being born nothing and never existing legally their entire lives.

#804
Dave of Canada

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 Templar class description in DA2.

The strong arm of the Chantry, templars serve as guardians of the Circles of Magi, hunters of apostates and maleficarum, and rarely, as a standing army at the command of the Divine. Through ingestion of carefully prepared lyrium, templars gain resistance to magic, including the ability to interrupt spells. Though the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, those with the right connections can acquire enough to emulate the abilities of these vigilant warriors. 


Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 mai 2012 - 04:11 .


#805
Urzon

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I think we need templars to help protect/police the mages, but the templars don't need to be under Chantry control. The whole "divine right" and hiring on religious fervor is very bad practice. They can just be a special branch of the kingdom's army that deals with guarding/policing the Circles in their region, as well a catching rogue aposates.

Since the templars and seekers broke away from the Chantry, it will slowly loose its monopoly on the lyrium market. The different kings of the land can then swoop down and easily buy their own supplies.(Not to mention, i'm sure the dwarves will enjoy the bidding war.) After that, they can make their templar forces.

#806
Rinshikai

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Urzon wrote...

I think we need templars to help protect/police the mages, but the templars don't need to be under Chantry control. The whole "divine right" and hiring on religious fervor is very bad practice. They can just be a special branch of the kingdom's army that deals with guarding/policing the Circles in their region, as well a catching rogue aposates.

Since the templars and seekers broke away from the Chantry, it will slowly loose its monopoly on the lyrium market. The different kings of the land can then swoop down and easily buy their own supplies.(Not to mention, i'm sure the dwarves will enjoy the bidding war.) After that, they can make their templar forces.


This is some thing I could agree with.

#807
vixvicco

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Mages are oppressed for a reason. Most of them are a threat, as proven time and time again. They shouldn't be raped or tortured, but they need some sort of heavy restrictions. I do believe they could live outside the circle, being monitored.

#808
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Well Dragonflight addressed my point about Templars and lyrium, Dave of Canada countered.

I had not actually read the class description in DA2. I knew that the Templars in Denerim in DAO insist that one cannot be a templar without snorting lyrium, yet Alistair and my Warden had no problem advancing the class abilities without it.

I could say some bull**** about "Hawke never took lyrium in game so the DA2 class description is just propoganda."

I could also change my opinion and decide that Alistair was a crappy templar who never realized his full potential.

I could take a side. But I won't.

In truth, it doesn't matter. Necessary or not, the Chantry does take advantage of the Templars' lyrium dependence to control them. This was the point I was making.

#809
CrimsonZephyr

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vixvicco wrote...

Mages are oppressed for a reason. Most of them are a threat, as proven time and time again. They shouldn't be raped or tortured, but they need some sort of heavy restrictions. I do believe they could live outside the circle, being monitored.


They're also angry for a reason. You can't expect an inequitable arrangement to treat the disadvantaged party fairly. Saying that "rapes and torture shouldn't happen" but then placing a system where such horrors are allowed to go unreported and laws against them unenforced, or where sufficient recourse for mages is not available, is stupid, and believing it produces anything, but resentment is myopic and naive.

#810
TEWR

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So, were I to reform the Circle here's what I'd do. Some of it may have been said by other posters in the last few pages. I've been working on this for the last few days. Feel free to point out any flaws with the ideas, people. I don't promise this will be perfect on the first try:

1) First, the Templars should no longer be under the authority of the Chantry. At least not in everyday circumstances. I would say that the Divine should only be able to assume direct control of the Templars during times of true holy war. Nothing like what Divine Ambrosia wanted to do on her own Cathedral. Even then though, it still setting up a dangerous notion. But I think they should either be under the jurisdiction of the state or the Circle. I'm leaning more towards the latter, simply because the former doesn't give a guarantee of it working for future generations. For kings like Alistair, it might work. But for kings not like Alistair, it'd be bad.

Then again, there's no guarantee that the former will work all the time either. But there's a better chance of it I think.

Ideally, what should happen is that the Mages and Templars form a council. We already have half of that, what with the mages having the senior enchanters and the First Enchanter. I'd propose that each Circle be governed by a council of Senior Templars, Senior Enchanters, the First Enchanter, and the Knight-Commander. The last two would have the authority to make decisions after discussing the matter -- like they do currently where they discuss issues, or should in the case of Kirkwall but don't because of Meredith -- but would discuss the matter in an open forum with the Senior members beforehand

I think that this would help matters somewhat.

2) Routine psychological screenings of both Mages and Templars. Pretty self-explanatory. We don't need repeats of Quentin and Meredith. The former had to have been close to the edge prior to his wife's death and her death was what sent him into the depths of insanity. And Meredith was never fit to raise beyond the title of "generic mook Templar". Hell, she should never have been a Templar in the first place IMO.

3) A division of Seekers should be present in every Circle, consisting of varied people. Atheists, believers, Elves, Dwarves. I think the Seekers should definitely be sworn to the state and not the Chantry or the Circle.

4) Recruit Dwarves into the Templar ranks. Have Dwarven Templars. This means fighting rogue maleficarum or Abominations will be easier.

5) Quit preaching that magic is a curse and a sin on the person's soul, a mark of the Maker's hatred. That leads to more problems then it solves, if it solves any at all. If you're going to call it anything, call it a privilege. You have to use it safely, otherwise you're not fit to be a Mage -- and that comment is made based on the idea of a refined form of Tranquility that eliminates magic but not emotions.

6) Allow supervised research. Demonology should always be studied, so as to learn more about Demons and how to fight them. Allow Mages to refine and practice all types of magic, save for the forbidden art of blood magic. My personal feelings on blood magic is that it isn't inherently evil and can be used for great deeds that can help humanity, but it's far more common for it to be abused. As a result, it's best left as something that only certain Mages can practice. Grey Wardens for one. Mages like Jowan and Merrill are others, but you'd be hard pressed to determine who would be good their entire life and able to be blood mages.

So my personal feelings on blood magic aren't factoring into what I think should be done with it. That said, Grey Warden mages can practice it since it helps them do their duty and we now have evidence to point to it cleansing inanimate objects of the Taint. And, if done appropriately, Wardens can live for 200 years and fight the Darkspawn as opposed to only 30 or so. 

7) Teach the mages more about the Harrowing. Don't inform them at the last minute. By Chantry dogma, even normal Mages are plagued by Demons day in and day out. If this is true, then they've already passed Harrowings time and time again. We know it's true for Somniari, who are a different type of Mage. But is it true for normal Mages? I don't know. If it isn't, then it needs to be corrected to say only Somniari are plagued by demons day in and day out. 

8) Allow the Mages to form personal bonds. They can have friends currently, but if they want something more they shouldn't have to do it in secret. They should be able to meet with family and have a dating life.
 
===============================================================================

I'd also like to say what should be done ideally to allow for Mages to live alongside the community that provides both relative freedom and security.

So, let's run with the idea of Johnny being discovered to be a Mage.

One day, Johnny's helping his father clean out the horse stables when somehow he freezes the bucket of water closest to him. He's not sure how, but when he tries to touch it again it suddenly melts back into liquid form. He runs to tell his father and his father says, "Johnny, looks like you're a Mage."

The Templars that are somewhere close by to Johnny's father's farm are notified. They arrive to take Johnny to the Circle Tower, but before doing so they sit down with Johnny, his father, and his mother. They discuss the issue and say that since he's a Mage, he's required by the law of the land to study at a Circle Tower, preferably the one closest to him so as to lessen the chance of being possessed ASAP.

"Madam, I realize it'll be hard for you to watch your child grow up without you there, but this is truly what's best for him. We will allow you to communicate by letters and visit, as that is your right. Given time, if your son proves himself to have followed the laws regarding magic well, he can even spend an extended amount of time with you. With Templar supervision nearby, of course."

So Johnny and the family converse with the Templars further and come to an agreement that it's best if Johnny does in fact go to the Circle.

He arrives there and is amazed at how huge it is in comparison to his dinky little farm, but is sad that he can't see his family. But he decides to make the most of it and do his best so he can make them proud and see them again, as he was told.

They take his blood and create two phylacteries.

Jump ahead 15 or so years. Johnny has proven himself a capable mage. Now it's time for his Harrowing. He's been informed of what he'd face in the past so he knows full well what's in store. But he knows that it's not as simple as "Go in, defeat demon, live happy". He knows that it's going to be difficult, because he's been hammered with that idea in his classes. It's never easy. To assume it will be means failure. He's been taught Dalish views on the Fade, knowing that in the Fade all you can believe is yourself. Everything in there is a lie, a trick, or a trap. So he goes in.

....

He's now passed his Harrowing. Now he is informed by the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter of his two options: 1) He can either remain at the Tower to live there for the rest of his life, tutoring new Mages and assisting in daily Circle affairs/politics or 2) He can move to a (fairly) major settlement -- like Redcliffe, Denerim, Kirkwall, Starkhaven, or Lothering -- that has a considerable Templar presence, where he can then have his own life and assist in increasing the positive opinion of Mages.

If he chooses the second option, it comes with its own set of limitations:

1) He must check in with the Templars daily.
2) If he is to perform magical research, it must be of the sanctioned kind and he must notify the Templars in his area, the Circle closest to him, and the Grand Cleric/Revered Mother/whoever is the highest priest in the area.
3) The Templars of that area will have on store one of the two phylacteries that were made when Johnny was first brought to the Circle. 

I dunno, maybe some other things.

I think this is a good way to start off on reforming the Circle system, based on what we know.


Dave of Canada wrote...


The strong arm of the Chantry, templars serve as guardians of the Circles of Magi, hunters of apostates and maleficarum, and rarely, as a standing army at the command of the Divine. Through ingestion of carefully prepared lyrium, templars gain resistance to magic, including the ability to interrupt spells. Though the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, those with the right connections can acquire enough to emulate the abilities of these vigilant warriors. 


But Alistair's own comments on the matter show something different.

1) Alistair says that Templars only receive lyrium when they take their vows.
2) Alistair says he has never taken his vows, therefore he has never ingested lyrium (he even says he never has IIRC).
3) Alistair is able to be a Templar
4) Duncan recruited him partially for his Templar abilities
5) Alistair can teach this to a Warrior Warden, who has also never ingested lyrium.

While the intended idea was for the Templars to only gain it upon ingestion, that idea was scrapped for DAO so it cannot be applicable as lore.

As such, what this Templar description that we have from one of the games right here says directly contradicts the facts established by Alistair.

I can accept lyrium amplifying Templar abilities as Alistair himself posits, but not lyrium actually being required to become a Templar. Simply because of what Alistair has said in DAO.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mai 2012 - 07:33 .


#811
GodWood

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Godwood wrote...
Those clamouring for 'complete and total mage liberation' are just fanatical morons who refuse to accept the inherent dangers of magic and who have absolutely no perspective in regards as to just how comfortable a mage's life is in comparison to the common man.

Barely anyone has said that the Mages should roam free with no restrictions in place. To think that's the prevailing opinion amongst pro-mage people is foolish

Unfortunately, from what I've experienced on these forums, that is prevailing opinion amongst most players.

#812
Ivucci

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GodWood wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Godwood wrote...
Those clamouring for 'complete and total mage liberation' are just fanatical morons who refuse to accept the inherent dangers of magic and who have absolutely no perspective in regards as to just how comfortable a mage's life is in comparison to the common man.

Barely anyone has said that the Mages should roam free with no restrictions in place. To think that's the prevailing opinion amongst pro-mage people is foolish

Unfortunately, from what I've experienced on these forums, that is prevailing opinion amongst most players.


I don't know how to find out what is the prevailing opinion and you may in theory be right but frankly I don't believe you are. At least those people who are able to put more than two sentences together and are able to participate in a discussion in a decent manner seem largely reasonable.

Of course, when you try to oppose an extreme view such as "FACT: mages' oppression is justified and there's no other way", anything you say is easily interpreted as the opposite extreme, even though it's not true.

#813
Lotion Soronarr

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Urzon wrote...

I think we need templars to help protect/police the mages, but the templars don't need to be under Chantry control..


And being under someone elses control is better because...why exactly?
Templars controlled by a king is better for mages?  Not really?
How about merchants? Nobles?

#814
dragonflight288

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Unfortunately, from what I've experienced on these forums, that is prevailing opinion amongst most players.


Hmm. One thing I have noticed, and I myself have been guilty of this in the past, is that we take a look at one person's post, read the whole thing, but the things we disagree with stand out so much to us, that we debate that one point and subconsciously ignore the other points made, and we soon come to the opinion that the person we're debating is saying something they actually didn't, all because of a disagreement among other issues. Mage supporters start off arguments about why the circles need reformation, and cite templar corruption and power abuses by the Chantry throughout established lore and history in the game, but those who are pro-templar and see mages in need of being locked up, will constantly cite the abominations and rogue blood mages as proof that it's needed. Then the two groups start saying mages are driven to desperation by templars in the current system (which they are) and that templars are meant to protect mages as well as people (which they are) and then the two sides get so caught up on the technicalities that issues that can be addressed and worked with are overlooked because people see one argument, and had many similar to it in the past, instantly assume they are arguing one thing based entirely on the points that stand out to that person, and not the whole argument itself.

It's human nature.

@ E.W.R

Like your system. Has a couple of flaws like what keeping mages checking in with the templars daily, when they could easily go hunting with some friends and forget to check in, and the templars believe he's running away? (an example I just thought up on the top of my head)

#815
Lotion Soronarr

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CrimsonZephyr wrote...

vixvicco wrote...

Mages are oppressed for a reason. Most of them are a threat, as proven time and time again. They shouldn't be raped or tortured, but they need some sort of heavy restrictions. I do believe they could live outside the circle, being monitored.


They're also angry for a reason. You can't expect an inequitable arrangement to treat the disadvantaged party fairly. Saying that "rapes and torture shouldn't happen" but then placing a system where such horrors are allowed to go unreported and laws against them unenforced, or where sufficient recourse for mages is not available, is stupid, and believing it produces anything, but resentment is myopic and naive.


That depends on the Circle in question, doesn't it?
You assume rape and killing is common, while it's far more likely it's an exception.
We ARE talking about middle ages here... things such as transparency, human rights and such didn't exist.

And yet you want to shoehorn them in. No faction, organization or individual in TheDas can live up to the standards of todays world.

#816
dragonflight288

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That depends on the Circle in question, doesn't it?
You assume rape and killing is common, while it's far more likely it's an exception.
We ARE talking about middle ages here... things such as transparency, human rights and such didn't exist.

And yet you want to shoehorn them in. No faction, organization or individual in TheDas can live up to the standards of todays world.


Cullen, in the mage origin in Ferelden, outright says he knows templars who discuss killing mages with glee. Wynne mentions that a fourteen year old ran away to join the Dalish, the templars didn't accept any excuses, but simply ran him through and called him maleficar (we later find him as a healer for the Dalish, not practicing any forbidden magics at all) and Gregoire was seen in the comic beating a pregnant mage.

Thedas doesn't have our standards, but does that mean we need to throw away our standards to match the game? Or do we accept these things as acceptable?

#817
TEWR

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Like your system. Has a couple of flaws like what keeping mages checking in with the templars daily, when they could easily go hunting with some friends and forget to check in, and the templars believe he's running away? (an example I just thought up on the top of my head)


Hmm... perhaps just notify them beforehand.

"Hey Laurence, I'm gonna go hunting with some of my buddies tomorrow, so I won't be checking in at the usual time. I'll probably be back around nightfall."

"Alright, I'll take a watch around the city gates and keep an eye out for when you return."

#818
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Ivucci wrote...

I don't know how to find out what is the prevailing opinion and you may in theory be right but frankly I don't believe you are. At least those people who are able to put more than two sentences together and are able to participate in a discussion in a decent manner seem largely reasonable.

I don't know that it's that unreasonable. Unless we're all happy hypocrites playing fully free mageHawke.

#819
dragonflight288

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Hmm... perhaps just notify them beforehand.

"Hey Laurence, I'm gonna go hunting with some of my buddies tomorrow, so I won't be checking in at the usual time. I'll probably be back around nightfall."

"Alright, I'll take a watch around the city gates and keep an eye out for when you return."


Right...my point was a case of forgetfulness. We all have forgotten something or another at some point.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 14 mai 2012 - 12:43 .


#820
Ivucci

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Filament wrote...

Ivucci wrote...

I don't know how to find out what is the prevailing opinion and you may in theory be right but frankly I don't believe you are. At least those people who are able to put more than two sentences together and are able to participate in a discussion in a decent manner seem largely reasonable.

I don't know that it's that unreasonable. Unless we're all happy hypocrites playing fully free mageHawke.


Sorry didn't actually mean to make a generalisation or speak for others.
As for 2, well that's why it's repeated every now and then that mageHawke doesn't make much sense in DA2 seeing as no one properly reacts to you being a free mage who doesn't even attempt to hide it.


Sorry I can't keep up with the discussion so I always just jump in, would like to react to The Ethereal Writer Redux's post which I like but it's a few hours past midnight here...

#821
bleachorange

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I think this has all gotten way out of proportion. I vote that the mages achieve freedom, then the templars kill them all and seal away the fade forever. yay.;)

Modifié par bleachorange, 14 mai 2012 - 01:54 .


#822
TEWR

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Hmm... perhaps just notify them beforehand.

"Hey Laurence, I'm gonna go hunting with some of my buddies tomorrow, so I won't be checking in at the usual time. I'll probably be back around nightfall."

"Alright, I'll take a watch around the city gates and keep an eye out for when you return."


Right...my point was a case of forgetfulness. We all have forgotten something or another at some point.


Ah. Had just woken up around then so I wasn't really at my brightest.

At any rate it's a fair point. We all have those moments. I suppose that were the Mage to not notify any Templar of where he was going because he forgot, he would have to be reprimanded fairly because by doing so it created an air of worry about where he is, what he's doing, and what's happened to him. I dunno. I can't really think of a good one.

#823
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dragonflight288 wrote...


Hmm. One thing I have noticed, and I myself have been guilty of this in the past, is that we take a look at one person's post, read the whole thing, but the things we disagree with stand out so much to us, that we debate that one point and subconsciously ignore the other points made, and we soon come to the opinion that the person we're debating is saying something they actually didn't, all because of a disagreement among other issues. 


I take issue with this statement and ignore the rest of your post!

Posted Image

#824
TEWR

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Hmm. One thing I have noticed, and I myself have been guilty of this in the past, is that we take a look at one person's post, read the whole thing, but the things we disagree with stand out so much to us, that we debate that one point and subconsciously ignore the other points made, and we soon come to the opinion that the person we're debating is saying something they actually didn't, all because of a disagreement among other issues. Mage supporters start off arguments about why the circles need reformation, and cite templar corruption and power abuses by the Chantry throughout established lore and history in the game, but those who are pro-templar and see mages in need of being locked up, will constantly cite the abominations and rogue blood mages as proof that it's needed. Then the two groups start saying mages are driven to desperation by templars in the current system (which they are) and that templars are meant to protect mages as well as people (which they are) and then the two sides get so caught up on the technicalities that issues that can be addressed and worked with are overlooked because people see one argument, and had many similar to it in the past, instantly assume they are arguing one thing based entirely on the points that stand out to that person, and not the whole argument itself.

It's human nature.


I've found that this applies to me a fair deal when devs enter the picture. They'll start to say something and have maybe one or two lines that are highlighting an example of something that went wrong in DAII and it just sends me off into a rant that is -- while related -- not the point the dev was trying to make.

I see a key word or phrase or even a paragraph and I just go off. At the end of the day, I end up rereading it and asking myself "Why didn't I focus on the real point, rather then some point that really didn't matter in the grand scheme of things?"

#825
dragonflight288

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I've found that this applies to me a fair deal when devs enter the picture. They'll start to say something and have maybe one or two lines that are highlighting an example of something that went wrong in DAII and it just sends me off into a rant that is -- while related -- not the point the dev was trying to make.

I see a key word or phrase or even a paragraph and I just go off. At the end of the day, I end up rereading it and asking myself "Why didn't I focus on the real point, rather then some point that really didn't matter in the grand scheme of things?"


Happens to everyone. Then I go eat a cookie, order a pizza, and watch a movie like Lord of the Rings to feel better about it, then get back to debating other people until I need more pizza.