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[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Cullen, in the mage origin in Ferelden, outright says he knows templars who discuss killing mages with glee.

You mean just like there are US soldier who discuss killing "towelheads" with glee?
Are you surprised? How many frinds does a templar loose over the years to mages? It's a high-strung enviroment and talk like that is not uncommon. As long as it remains just talk, it's not a problem..

Wynne mentions that a fourteen year old ran away to join the Dalish, the templars didn't accept any excuses, but simply ran him through and called him maleficar (we later find him as a healer for the Dalish, not practicing any forbidden magics at all) and Gregoire was seen in the comic beating a pregnant mage.

So? There are templars who are jerks.. what's so surprising about that. There will always be those, just like there will be corrupt cops.
As for Gregoire - comics suck balls and are written by compeltely differnet people.

Thedas doesn't have our standards, but does that mean we need to throw away our standards to match the game? Or do we accept these things as acceptable?

It means you scale your expectations accordingly and search for solutions that are viable and probable in the setting/timeframe.

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You mean just like there are US soldier who discuss killing "towelheads" with glee?
Are you surprised? How many frinds does a templar loose over the years to mages? It's a high-strung enviroment and talk like that is not uncommon. As long as it remains just talk, it's not a problem..

There is a difference between talking about killing active combative enemies, and talking about killing people under your own guard and/or protection. And i'm sure that the mages lose just as many friends to the templars, as the templars do to mages. It might be "all talk", but it causes a distrust between the two groups. How can a mage trust a templar after hearing him happily recount, how he killed their best friend because he was taking too long on his Harrowing?

So? There are templars who are jerks.. what's so surprising about that. There will always be those, just like there will be corrupt cops.
As for Gregoire - comics suck balls and are written by compeltely differnet people.

A jerk is someone who bullies you, and makes your life hell. A jerk isn't someone who skewers you with a sword, kicks you while you are choking on your blood, and then leaves you to die in the middle of no where. I agree that there is going to always bad apples, but that doesn't mean that's ok. Those are the types things you don't want to be able to just shrug off and say, "What's so surprising about that?"

Comics are still canon.

Modifié par Urzon, 14 mai 2012 - 09:17 .

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


You mean just like there are US soldier who discuss killing "towelheads" with glee?
Are you surprised? How many frinds does a templar loose over the years to mages? It's a high-strung enviroment and talk like that is not uncommon. As long as it remains just talk, it's not a problem..

Dafuq? AM soldiers and "towelheads" are at war with each other. Templars are supposed to be the protectors of the mages. Massive difference. I would not even tolerate this **** from wardens to their prisoners.

So? There are templars who are jerks.. what's so surprising about that. There will always be those, just like there will be corrupt cops.
As for Gregoire - comics suck balls and are written by compeltely differnet people.

Any decent cop will say that the templar order is one massive pile of diarrhea. No discipline , drug addiction  , zealotry , no moral compass , no self improving factors , no internal regulators and candidates recruited on religious believes instead of character. In short the templars are one massive pile of fail. supporting it means you fail just as well.

[GodWood]

Ivucci wrote...
I don't know how to find out what is the prevailing opinion and you may in theory be right but frankly I don't believe you are.

Well naturally it'd be by asking every single person who has played the game and tallying the results. However it should be noted I did not say it was the prevailing opinion, rather from what I've experienced on the forums it is the prevailing opinion.

Two completely different things. 

Anyways, it's not that hard to believe that such a stupid opinion could be held by most. The game's largest audience is your typical emotional, freedom-loving, libertarian who will see any supposed 'oppression' as unjust and a violation of liberal rights regardless of the context.

That's just how the kiddies are.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Urzon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You mean just like there are US soldier who discuss killing "towelheads" with glee?
Are you surprised? How many frinds does a templar loose over the years to mages? It's a high-strung enviroment and talk like that is not uncommon. As long as it remains just talk, it's not a problem..

There is a difference between talking about killing active combative enemies, and talking about killing people under your own guard and/or protection. And i'm sure that the mages lose just as many friends to the templars, as the templars do to mages. It might be "all talk", but it causes a distrust between the two groups. How can a mage trust a templar after hearing him happily recount, how he killed their best friend because he was taking too long on his Harrowing?

Mages are pretty much both.
They can be frinds with a templar, or the templar could view the mas enemies. It woudl depend on their personal history and interaction.
And in general, those kinds of things is what templars discuss between themselves, not the things they say to mages. For their ears only.

I agree that there is going to always bad apples, but that doesn't mean that's ok. Those are the types things you don't want to be able to just shrug off and say, "What's so surprising about that?"

True, but you can't use those bad apples to say the Circle system doesn't work. Even in todays world, with all of our sensitivites and laws and oversigs and cameras and everything - there's still plenty of bad cops. Adn politicans. and bad apples EVERYWHERE.
It is compeltely unreasonable to expect such things to be rarer in any organization in a more "primitive" setting.

Comics are still canon.

I do not recognize that garabge in any way, shape or form.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Dafuq? AM soldiers and "towelheads" are at war with each other. Templars are supposed to be the protectors of the mages. Massive difference. I would not even tolerate this **** from wardens to their prisoners.

And yet it still happens.
"you shouldnt' be saying things like that" has never stoped humanity...ever.
As I siad - bad apples. Just because one templar overheard antother talking how he killed a mge with glee, doesn't mean anything.

I read in the papers that every once and a while, a mother kills her child. Deos that mean all motehrs are horrible? That the parenting system doesn't work?

Obviously some people project either their hatered for religion from the reail world, or their hatered for authority into TheDas. As such, they interpret everything as the worst case scenario.

I'm quite sure if there was a scene with a templar giving children candy, there'd be folks on the forum here claiming he was a pedo.

Any decent cop will say that the templar order is one massive pile of diarrhea. No discipline , drug addiction  , zealotry , no moral compass , no self improving factors , no internal regulators and candidates recruited on religious believes instead of character. In short the templars are one massive pile of fail. supporting it means you fail just as well.

Would be nice if you could prove half of that...but we know you can't.
Moral compas? you cna't.
No discipline? you cna't.
No internal regulators? You can't.
No self-improving factors? You can't.

Etc..sorry to say this, but that statement is one massive pile of fail.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 14 mai 2012 - 10:53 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

GodWood wrote...
Anyways, it's not that hard to believe that such a stupid opinion could be held by most. The game's largest audience is your typical emotional, freedom-loving, libertarian who will see any supposed 'oppression' as unjust and a violation of liberal rights regardless of the context.

That's just how the kiddies are.

QFT.

Also, the whole rebelion to authority and siding with the underdog.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 14 mai 2012 - 10:55 .

[GodWood]

DKJaigen wrote...
Dafuq? AM soldiers and "towelheads" are at war with each other. Templars are supposed to be the protectors of the mages.

Templars also hunt apostate mages.

Any decent cop will say that the templar order is one massive pile of diarrhea.

Please stick with stating your own opinions and don't pretend they're held by all others of a certain group. 

In short the templars are one massive pile of fail. supporting it means you fail just as well.

Ooo, clever!

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Also, the whole rebelion to authority and siding with the underdog.

Exactly.

Modifié par GodWood, 14 mai 2012 - 10:56 .

[Dave of Canada]

Don't forget the religious hate.

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages are pretty much both.
They can be frinds with a templar, or the templar could view the mas enemies. It woudl depend on their personal history and interaction.
And in general, those kinds of things is what templars discuss between themselves, not the things they say to mages. For their ears only.

Until the end of Asunder, the mages in the Circles weren't enemies to the templar. They were simply their wards. The templars were to guard and police the Circles and hunt for aposates. Their personally views, history and interaction aren't suppose to effect their judgement on the job. They have to keep a clear mind and neutral position. If they had a bias for or against mages, they wouldn't be able to properly do their job. 

While they might discuss that inbetween themselves, you are forgetting that the Circle is a cloistered tower usually in the middle of no where. Each Circle is probably a hive of gossip and information exchange. The mages know what the templars do and talk about, and the same goes in reverse.

I do not recognize that garabge in any way, shape or form.

Yet, it's still canon. So, you can't discount it.

Modifié par Urzon, 14 mai 2012 - 11:29 .

[DKJaigen]

GodWood wrote...

Ivucci wrote...
I don't know how to find out what is the prevailing opinion and you may in theory be right but frankly I don't believe you are.

Well naturally it'd be by asking every single person who has played the game and tallying the results. However it should be noted I did not say it was the prevailing opinion, rather from what I've experienced on the forums it is the prevailing opinion.

Two completely different things. 

Anyways, it's not that hard to believe that such a stupid opinion could be held by most. The game's largest audience is your typical emotional, freedom-loving, libertarian who will see any supposed 'oppression' as unjust and a violation of liberal rights regardless of the context.

That's just how the kiddies are.

" Shakes  head in amusement". I dont know what rock you crawled under from but im going to make the mesage clear to you. The issue is not about the mages being free but if the templar order should exist. 

Would be nice if you could prove half of that...but we know you can't.
Moral compas? you cna't.
No discipline? you cna't.
No internal regulators? You can't.
No self-improving factors? You can't.

Are you trying to proof that you are an idiot? if so your doing a great job at it. I dont have to proof anything. You proof to me that the templar order functions well after they brought the entire world to the brink of collapse.

Templars also hunt apostate mages.

Look godwood im a police officer myself. If i say  that i want to kill all the criminal scum i can turn over my badge. Do you why? Because it shows that you cannot judge objectively. if you cannot judge objectively you will fail as an enforcer of the laws. Be it present day cops or templars.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 14 mai 2012 - 11:38 .

[GodWood]

DKJaigen wrote...
" Shakes  head in amusement". I dont know what rock you crawled under from but im going to make the mesage clear to you. The issue is not about the mages being free but if the templar order should exist.

Considering this was a seperate discussion from yours I believe it's about what ever I want it to be about provided it's under the clause of mages and templars (the general thread topic).

Look godwood im a police officer myself.

Oink.

If i say  that i want to kill all the criminal scum i can turn over my badge. Do you know why? Because it shows that you cannot judge objectively. if you cannot judge objectively you will fail as an enforcer of the laws. Be it present day cops or templars.

Lovely story but I'm failing to see the point.

You said bigotry between two warring groups in RL is not comparable to a templar being bigoted of mages because "Templars are meant to protect mages". I corrected you by adding that they also hunt apostate ones.

Not a defence of bigotry. Just pointing out the inherent hostilities between templars and apostate mages.

Modifié par GodWood, 14 mai 2012 - 12:13 .

[DKJaigen]

Not a defence of bigotry. Just pointing out the inherent hostilities between templars and apostate mages.

Their is a large amount of hostility between the police and the criminal elements of a country. What im saying is that any police force that is biased will fail or cause enormous amount of damage. Aneirin is a good example. The templars tried to kill a confused kid no matter how dangerous he was to his surroundings. Greagoir ordered the death of a pregnant women. In short the templars cause massive amount of harm with their bigotry. The mage templar war is just the bigotry spilling over to the entire world.

[dragonflight288]

Lovely story but I'm failing to see the point.

You said bigotry between two warring groups in RL is not comparable to a templar being bigoted of mages because "Templars are meant to protect mages". I corrected you by adding that they also hunt apostate ones.

Not a defence of bigotry. Just pointing out the inherent hostilities between templars and apostate mages.

The point was that the templars, largely recruited from people with religious zeal and less from people with moral fiber (templar codex) tend to largely see all mages with the same lens. Some even want to kill all mages for being mages because of religious conviction. This desire and bias keeps the templars from behaving objectively when dealing with their charges and with apostates both. And if you can't judge a situation objectively, then you will ultimately fail in your duties.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The point was that the templars, largely recruited from people with religious zeal and less from people with moral fiber (templar codex) tend to largely see all mages with the same lens.

"Moral fiber" is subjective. You don't know exactly what the Chantry looks for in the templars, nor can you say that that is not what they consider the backbone of good moral fiber.

Some even want to kill all mages for being mages because of religious conviction. This desire and bias keeps the templars from behaving objectively when dealing with their charges and with apostates both. And if you can't judge a situation objectively, then you will ultimately fail in your duties.

Well, given that 99,9% of the pro-mage supporters can't seem to judge objectively either, that statement itself is kinda worthless.
What you consider objective, may very well not be that.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion considering you have tried to twist several pieces of information your opinion is about as biased as it can get. You cannot even consider the possibility of improvement. So i find ironic that you claim mage supporters cannot judge objectively while so far have never been able to do so.

[Lazy Jer]

DKJaigen wrote...

Look godwood im a police officer myself. If i say  that i want to kill all the criminal scum i can turn over my badge. Do you why? Because it shows that you cannot judge objectively. if you cannot judge objectively you will fail as an enforcer of the laws. Be it present day cops or templars.

You say that as though it were the opinion of every templar you run into that all mages should be killed.  It's not.  It's not even the opinion of most of them.  Meredeth doesn't even think so or else she wouldn't have turned down the Tranquil Solution (which isn't killing the mages per se, but is certainly comparable). 


What's more, you really can't compare a modern day police force with the templars.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 14 mai 2012 - 07:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion considering you have tried to twist several pieces of information your opinion is about as biased as it can get. You cannot even consider the possibility of improvement. So i find ironic that you claim mage supporters cannot judge objectively while so far have never been able to do so.

Say what mr. Pot?

There is room for improvement, but what most suggest is wishfull thinking that cannot reasonably work.

[dragonflight288]

Say what mr. Pot?

There is room for improvement, but what most suggest is wishfull thinking that cannot reasonably work.

What most suggest is removing the power the templars have over mages because the order is corrupt and abuse its power, and reforming the circle to be improved. You and other templar supporters oppose every argument made in favor of removing the templars power, and then twist our words to make it sound like we're saying things we aren't.

How about you take the system Etheral Writer wrote, address it, point by point, and thoughtfully tell us why it will never work? I'm open for an honest debate. Don't give me opinions. Give me lore, history, facts, that proves that our ideas won't work.

And just so you know, David Gaider outright said once that codexes can't be taken as gospel truth for the lore, because they have their own biases based on their own authors, so we have to take more than one codex at a time to set up an argument. Follow that rule, and I'll do the same.

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It is compeltely unreasonable to expect such things to be rarer in any organization in a more "primitive" setting.

It is probably realistic for them to show this in a setting such as the game world, however the fact that it is pretty standard for this sort of behavior to happen is part of why mages shouldn't be in the care of religious zealots.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

What most suggest is removing the power the templars have over mages because the order is corrupt and abuse its power, and reforming the circle to be improved. You and other templar supporters oppose every argument made in favor of removing the templars power, and then twist our words to make it sound like we're saying things we aren't.

SOME templars are currupt. There is no wide-spread, insitutional abuse (but some pro-magers want it to be and see it in everything).

You need temaplrs. Removing them from power is a bad move. Who would watch over mages? Mages themselves? Yeah, like that would work! It won't. Not from a practical standpoint, nor from a social one.

Replace it with some normal guards? Wihout templar powers how cna they properly police mages?

Who can you replace templars with? How do you ensre they don't abuse their power?

Nah, the only changes needed is some stricter templar oversight.

How about you take the system Etheral Writer wrote, address it, point by point, and thoughtfully tell us why it will never work? I'm open for an honest debate. Don't give me opinions. Give me lore, history, facts, that proves that our ideas won't work.

Why it won't work? Practical reasons. Logistical reasons. Social reasons.

A lot of pro-magers constantly play the moral card, but ignore the practical considerations.
Any new system proposed has to be one that the common people of TheDas would accept.
It would have to be one that would be just as effective at keeping mages from causing trouble and killing people.

And even if you want to play the moral card, what's so moral about a system that results in more deaths? Is mages freedom more important than the lives of common folk?

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You need temaplrs. Removing them from power is a bad move. Who would watch over mages? Mages themselves? Yeah, like that would work! It won't. Not from a practical standpoint, nor from a social one.

Not what he was saying at all.

He never said remove the Templars completely or at all. He said remove the power they hold over Mages.

He wants them to be a neutral party, rather then a biased one that controls the Mages. He never said make them unable to perform their abilities.

Because crap like this...

We have dominance over Mages by divine right. -- Cullen

Mages aren't people. They are weapons. -- Cullen

....is a sure sign of why the Templar Order in its current form is not how it should be. The Templars need to be an equal party with the Mages, neither beholden to the Chantry or the State but to the Circle itself (IMO).

I refer you to my post on the last page or so, where what I proposed is effectively what dragonflight288 is saying now.

And I'm willing to bet that the common people of Thedas would accept Mages being free, if the right methods were used. Ferelden has already seen a surge in pro-mage sentiments due to the Mages' Collective, where they assisted the populus and made problems disappear before Chantry involvement.

By doing so, Ferelden has become more pro-mage and accepting of them.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 mai 2012 - 08:22 .

[GodWood]

DKJaigen wrote...
The mage templar war is just the bigotry spilling over to the entire world.

Well that's out right wrong. If the templar's supposed 'bigotry' was the source of the mage/templar war the war would've been started by some templars who wanted to f*ck sh*t up.

For someone who takes pride in his supposed 'objectivity' you seem to have some difficulty applying that to the mage/templar conflict.

dragonflight288 wrote...
The point was that the templars, largely recruited from people with religious zeal and less from people with moral fiber (templar codex) tend to largely see all mages with the same lens. Some even want to kill all mages for being mages because of religious conviction. This desire and bias keeps the templars from behaving objectively when dealing with their charges and with apostates both. And if you can't judge a situation objectively, then you will ultimately fail in your duties.

This was certainly not his original point but he seems to have tried to make it so.

Modifié par GodWood, 15 mai 2012 - 10:27 .