1194 réponses à ce sujet

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Must be nice to be able to boil down everything to two perspectives, then overly dramatize (and over explain) the point you don't agree with. All the while, you keep your opinion short and sweet, but never go into details about the downsides.

Then when people try and push for a compromise between the two side, it is always written off as "you don't understand the dangers".

Which always seems to boil down to, "Mages bad, go in Circle" or "Mage evil, die!".

After so many pages, you really expect me to write essays?
"Mages dangerous, lock in circles" is an apt simplification.

And the downsides? Everyone knows the downsides of the Circle system. We've seen the downsides. No one is happy with the downsides.
But at least the Circle supporters acknowledge the downsides. Most mage supporters are blind to the downsides of mages roaming free.

Also, I am a moderate.
Do you think I like mage abuse? Yes, I'd like better oversight as well, but the issue and it's solution is hardly as simple as many think.

Some solutions are just that simple. But he problem is Lotion is that make a lot of claims but cannot back them up with the DA lore. Its amusing watching flailing about. You say the only system that works is the circle system but their are several society's where mages just do fine without a circle. Its even more amusing that you say the circle system is the only way while its that system that broke down and will fail utterly. The templars will lose one way or another as time is catching up with their antiquated ways. Even if the mage rebellion is wiped out the tevinter imperium or qunari will step in. 

[dragonflight288]

Lotion wrote

One that postulates that mages really aren't that dangerous, that the Chantry is evil, corrupt and inflates the danger, and that letting a thousand mages roam free would end great for everyone.
This view is rather popular, in no small part due to humanities leanings to root for the underdog and the rather negative view on religion (and the Catholic church in general) and many misconceptions about it. Also a factor is our modern push for Political Correctnes (gonw wild) and the idea that any and all limitations on anyones freedom is eeeeevil.

hahahaha. Nice try. Very nice. Not trying to be judgmental or discourage you, but if that's your honest belief that I'm arguing for full freedom of mages, then you need to reread a few of my arguments.

My argument is, and always has been, that mages are both dangerous, the threat of abominations is very real, and I recognize a rogue blood mage criminal has the capability of causing far more damage than a guy with a knife (but given enough time, the guy with a knife can do just as much as the mage in an instant), and the Chantry IS corrupt. I have always argued both. Using in game-lore, and I'll use more than one here...paraphrasing the codexes because I have to go to work soon, but you can look them up if you so choose...

A.) History of the Chantry Codex- Specifically says that the first Emperor of Orlais chose one of many Andrastian cults, 100 years after Andraste's death. He and this new Chantry, worked together to conquer all the city-states of Orlais, spreading the Chant of Light as interpreted by this particular Andrastian Cult, throughout Orlais as the Emperor conquered the other city-states.

Orlais then proceeded to conquer other countries as well, Nevarra, Rivain, Ferelden, the Dales, and the Free Marches. At the end of the last Age, the Divine was about to call it the Sun Age, both as the symbol of the Chantry and the emblem of of the Empire of Orlais.

B.) Then we have a codex on the war between Orlais and Ferelden, and the final battle between Maric, Loghain and King Drakon on behalf of Orlais. The Divine was about to name the new age the Sun Age when a High Dragon, thought to be extinct, made an appearance in the Frostback Mountains. Swiftly, the Divine named it the Dragon Age. Many believed she did it in favor of the Orlesian forces in Orlais, because Drakon's emblem was a dragon.

Instead of the Dragon's expected course towards the East, the dragon went West, into Orlais and killed hundreds of Orlesians. Also, Loghain won the battle and the Orlesians were driven out of Ferelden. And so the Dragon Age is believed to be a time of violence and change. All according to the Codex.

C.) The codex on Rivain and another one on the treaty between the Chantry and the Qunari in Rivain. The Qunari conquered Rivian, and the northern section of it is still strong believers in the Qun. Also, while Rivain does have a Circle, it strongly rejects the Chantry (after being conquered by Orlais in the past, the Chantry moved in) because it has a strong reverence in its Seers, mages who sometimes willingly let themselves become possessed, as the Chantry's teachings directly go against millennia of tradition in that country. And while the Qunari broke the treaty made by the Chantry the first time, the Chantry also broke that treaty and tried to reconquer northern Rivain the second time that treaty was broken.

Taking all these codexes into account, it becomes very safe to assume that Orlesian and Chantry interests are one and the same, and there are more to support this theory. The templar codex specifically says they recruit mostly from people who adhere to the Chantry's beliefs so much, they are borderline zealots, all for the purpose of keeping them from questioning their orders, like Annuling a Circle.

My argument has always been, that we need templars who WILL question their orders, like in Kirkwall. Meredith ordered a Rite of Annulment for the actions committed by an apostate who was never a member of that circle. That particular Circle did nothing. Meredith was going to the Divine, over Elthina's head, to try and get that Rite approved because Elthina wasn't approving it, and the very moment Elthina and the priests were out of the way, Meredith moved in to kill all the mages and wouldn't accept any arguments against her.

We needed Templars to question their orders because at the moment Meredith gave the order, there was literally no evidence that the Circle was guilty of any wrong doing. True, we saw abominations during the battle that followed, but that can easily be explained that the mages were driven to desperation by the templars and not that they were always bad eggs.

As such, it must be done that a Circle system must be created that both deals with the potential abominations and abuse of power, but also prevents templars, or the templar equivalents, from having power OVER mages, and by that, I mean where templars can rape and abuse the mages without consequence, and the templars must be held accountable for their action or inaction regarding mage and non-mage safety.

So, I have argued a required learning period within the Circle where the mages have to pass at least some form of Harrowing before leaving. They are allowed the right to marry and have children without special permission. After passing their harrowing, they have the option to live among a population, where they check in with the templars. If they wish to conduct any magical research, it can be done at the Circle, or under supervision of the local lord or Knight-Captain.

The templars need to check in with a third party and account for what they do to keep mages safe, and keep non-mages safe. If they go too far, they need to be punished according to the crime committed. Illegally tranquilize a mage, you are cut off from lyrium entirely (if it's true that lyrium gives you the powers instead of amplifying them...or something like that) and kicked out of the order. Throw your rank around to get what you want, you get demoted, etc. etc.

Mages need to be trained appropriately, you'll never hear me say otherwise. But they can't be trained in an environment where they're told constantly what they have is a curse upon their soul, they are damned in the eyes of the maker, and magic can only be a punishment (see Kalei in Origins, or Bethany's original thoughts on magic in DA2).

The Lord High Seeker and the templars as a whole rebelled from the Chantry because they didn't agree with the Divine, and while the bad eggs among the mages weren't making things any easier on them, it was the templars who forced the issue and made it a war. (Asunder)

I have used codexes and the novels to show that the Chantry's interests like with those of Orlais throughout their history, and it's a history of blood and death, tied in with a shared power with Orlais, in addition to a codex on templars and in-game evidence (and in-book evidence) that the templar order is corrupt in its own way. The mages weren't guilty of the crimes they were being put to death for, and no one is going to sit on their hands and knees while men with sharp objects butcher them either. It's complicated, and I don't know if my system would work or not, but I do know it hasn't been tried in Thedas (to my knowledge) before, and the current system doesn't work.

Abominations are dangerous, but the Chantry and the templar order itself is also corrupt. That's the long and short of it.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 17 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Some solutions are just that simple.

This is what foolish people usually think.

But he problem is Lotion is that make a lot of claims but cannot back them up with the DA lore. Its amusing watching flailing about.

I've backed it up more then enough. If you dont' want to read, dont' blame me.

You say the only system that works is the circle system but their are several society's where mages just do fine without a circle.

Actually no. Tevinter also has circles. Rivian also has circles. And the qunari...well.
And do other societies do just fine? Not really. At best it's debatable, especially given how little we know of it.

Its even more amusing that you say the circle system is the only way while its that system that broke down and will fail utterly. The templars will lose one way or another as time is catching up with their antiquated ways. Even if the mage rebellion is wiped out the tevinter imperium or qunari will step in. 

Rebelion = system broke?
I asked you before - does a prison rebellion mean the prison system doesn't work and all prisoners should be let out to roam free? Of course not. So why do oyu aply such broken logic here?

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
My argument is, and always has been, that mages are both dangerous, the threat of abominations is very real, and I recognize a rogue blood mage criminal has the capability of causing far more damage than a guy with a knife (but given enough time, the guy with a knife can do just as much as the mage in an instant), and the Chantry IS corrupt. I have always argued both.

The Chantry is no more corrupt than any other huge organization.
It is an inherent flaw of any system run by humans.

Taking all these codexes into account, it becomes very safe to assume that Orlesian and Chantry interests are one and the same, and there are more to support this theory.

Assume all you want.

We needed Templars to question their orders because at the moment Meredith gave the order, there was literally no evidence that the Circle was guilty of any wrong doing. True, we saw abominations during the battle that followed, but that can easily be explained that the mages were driven to desperation by the templars and not that they were always bad eggs.

given all the blood magic and abominations runign around, it could ALSO be reasonably assumed that the circle is irreparably corrupt.

So, I have argued a required learning period within the Circle where the mages have to pass at least some form of Harrowing before leaving. They are allowed the right to marry and have children without special permission. After passing their harrowing, they have the option to live among a population, where they check in with the templars. If they wish to conduct any magical research, it can be done at the Circle, or under supervision of the local lord or Knight-Captain.

That is the big gaping flaw there.

[dragonflight288]

given all the blood magic and abominations runign around, it could ALSO be reasonably assumed that the circle is irreparably corrupt.

They could be apostates for all we know.

Grace and the other bloodmages in the circle that we know of before driven to desperation are all killed by the end of Thrask's life and rebellion...which wanted nothing more than to remove Meredith from power, and she had too much for  a Knight-Commander to have.

to quote varic: Meredith ruled with an iron fist. The more the mages resisted, the tighter she squeezed, the tighter she squeezed, the more they resisted.

That is the big gaping flaw there.

Very well. If you would be so kind as to point it out, in detail?

Modifié par dragonflight288, 18 mai 2012 - 01:01 .

[dragonflight288]

And do other societies do just fine? Not really. At best it's debatable, especially given how little we know of it.

Actually, the fact that we don't know much about them means it isn't debatable. We just know that there are other systems in place, and have been for centuries, without Chantry interference. We don't know what they do, strengths or weaknesses. I do know that nothing thought up by mankind will be free of flaws, so they obviously have downsides, but they must also have positive ones or they wouldn't use them.

Simply put, the Chantry way isn't the only way, and their way simply doesn't work, as is evidenced by the whole war (started by templars.)

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Rebelion = system broke?
I asked you before - does a prison rebellion mean the prison system doesn't work and all prisoners should be let out to roam free? Of course not. So why do oyu aply such broken logic here?

There is a difference between "needs to be fixed" and "needs to be shut down and allow prisoners to run free."  This isn't an either/or question.  You can have reform that doesn't simply turn mages loose on the population.  You can have training without incarceration.  You can have respect for the dangers without having mindless fear.

A prison rebellion does mean the prison system is broken and that things need to be fixed.  If the system allows bad members to get strong enough to actually form a rebellion, that's a problem.  And if the system forces otherwise cooperative members into desperate acts, that's a problem too.

Just because the system says someone should be locked up doesn't mean you have to believe it.  The American prison system is now privatized such that certain people make piles of money by ensuring that laws get passed to create more inmates.  The original purpose of rehabilitating criminals and protecting everyone else from them is now just a small part of a money making machine.

The circle seems much the same.  The Chantry benefits greatly from its (mostly) exclusive power over the mages.  This makes it very difficult to consider them completely objective about whether the system is necessary, whether its functioning as well as possible and whether there are alternatives.

[DKJaigen]

[quote]
Actually no. Tevinter also has circles. Rivian also has circles. And the qunari...well.
And do other societies do just fine? Not really. At best it's debatable, especially given how little we know of it.
[/quote]

They do not dont break down. Each has his own cultural problems but they are not magic related. Also weird that the you name the tevinter imperium. The circles there are only for educating mages. The mages themselves rule that place and yet i do not see massive amount of abominations running rampant.

[quote]
Rebelion = system broke?
I asked you before - does a prison rebellion mean the prison system doesn't work and all prisoners should be let out to roam free? Of course not. So why do oyu aply such broken logic here? [/quote]

GavrielKay Silfren already explained that in detail . if a system breaks down their is a fundamental problem with it .

[quote]
given all the blood magic and abominations runign around, it could ALSO
be reasonably assumed that the circle is irreparably corrupt.
[/quote]


And the chantry is responsible for the education of the mages. So it begs the question if the chantry provides such poor education for the mages that so many are corrupted? And it once again raises the question if the chantry is doing its task correctly [/quote]

Modifié par DKJaigen, 18 mai 2012 - 06:18 .

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
given all the blood magic and abominations runign around, it could ALSO be reasonably assumed that the circle is irreparably corrupt.

As I recall we don't see very many circle mages until the end game.  Apostate mages going bonkers in the hellmouth that is Kirkwall is a shame, but perhaps not completely unexpected.  Blaming the remaining hundreds of mages in the circle itself for what you see running around town is unfair.  Genitivi says there are hundreds of mages in the Gallows (source) before the Starkhaven mages join them.  That's a lot of people to put under one assumption. 

Men, women, children, elderly mages...  were they all so bad as Meredith would have us believe, the Gallows would look more like the Ferelden circle during the Broken Circle quest.  As we know Meredith is influenced by the same red lyrium that had Bartrand slicing bits off his household members, it also seems reasonable that she's just plain loony.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...
A prison rebellion does mean the prison system is broken and that things need to be fixed.  If the system allows bad members to get strong enough to actually form a rebellion, that's a problem.  And if the system forces otherwise cooperative members into desperate acts, that's a problem too.

Actually no.

From the begining of time and the invention of prisons there have been riots, prison breaks and rebellions.
No matter how the prisons changed over the centureis, it always keeps happening. Why? Because they always will.
no matter how you change a prison, it remains a prison. All the captives will NEVER be happy. Soem might. But never all. Sooner or later ther cauldron will boil over and there will be a riot. And when it is put down, things will settle down once again. It's is a cycle that has repeated itself forever.

And the underlined here is exactly the cause. You have two diametricly opposd goals. The more restrictions and oversight you put into the captives, the angrier they become. Yet the less of it you put, the easier it is for them to become strong enough.
There is no perfect balance, as not all humans are the same. There is no perfect system. There is no unescapable prison.

There is no way to fix the system that will prevent this from happening.

Just because the system says someone should be locked up doesn't mean you have to believe it.

It doesn't mean they should be locked up either.
If mages were alive and existing, today, in this world - I'd want them locked up. I'm sorry, but they're just too dangerous to let roam around.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

They do not dont break down. Each has his own cultural problems but they are not magic related. Also weird that the you name the tevinter imperium. The circles there are only for educating mages. The mages themselves rule that place and yet i do not see massive amount of abominations running rampant.

How do you knwo they do not break down? It's not like Tevinter is open and news flow freely in TheDas.

And the chantry is responsible for the education of the mages. So it begs the question if the chantry provides such poor education for the mages that so many are corrupted? And it once again raises the question if the chantry is doing its task correctly

Actually, the internal workings of a Circle are left to the first Enchanter and the mages. Mages teach other mages.

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rebelion = system broke?
I asked you before - does a prison rebellion mean the prison system doesn't work and all prisoners should be let out to roam free? Of course not. So why do oyu aply such broken logic here?

This doesn't work because the Circle isn't a prison. A prison is a place where you send criminals as punishment for crimes.

A more accurate comparison is either a internment or concentration camp. A guarded place/area where people are sent without trial because of: political, ethnic, or religious differences. as well as enemies and civillians during wartime.

Modifié par Urzon, 18 mai 2012 - 09:59 .

[DKJaigen]

How do you knwo they do not break down? It's not like Tevinter is open and news flow freely in TheDas.

Because there is indeed no information which means that the tevinter goverment keeps a close watch goes in and out of  their borders. Thats a major indication that tevinter goverment is stable. Second part if the tevinter imperium was unstable they would not send expeditions to capture a qunari tome. third feynriel gives no indication that the tevinter imperium is unstable . and lastly you have no damn proof that the tevinter imperium is unstable.

Actually, the internal workings of a Circle are left to the first Enchanter and the mages. Mages teach other mages.

And the chantry decides what the mages are allowed to teach and research. everything else is immediately labeld malificarum  and banned.

Actually no.

From the begining of time and the invention of prisons there have been riots, prison breaks and rebellions.
No matter how the prisons changed over the centureis, it always keeps happening. Why? Because they always will.
no
matter how you change a prison, it remains a prison. All the captives
will NEVER be happy. Soem might. But never all. Sooner or later ther
cauldron will boil over and there will be a riot. And when it is put
down, things will settle down once again. It's is a cycle that has
repeated itself forever.

If a jailbreak/riot occurs their is usally a major investigation to see how it happend. People will get replaced protocols will change and improvements are made  so that the error within the system never happens again. There may or may  not be another riot but for different reasons.

But the cycle does not repeat itself. If it does you must ask yourself if the persons in charge are competent. Most people lotion are not stupid enough to make the same mistake twice except you i guess

Modifié par DKJaigen, 18 mai 2012 - 12:49 .

[dragonflight288]

Lotion, you dismiss our arguments (and I mention you because at the moment, you're the only one doing this....may change in the future or not) without offering anything to suggest why what we're saying is wrong. You dismissed my entire argument, saying there was a big gaping flaw in a theoretical system which I openly acknowledge has never been tried, but make absolutely no mention what it is. You are defending a system that is broken, and we're pointing out the flaws with the current system.

You're taking our arguments as if it's not that way, we must be extremists on the other side...or at least that's how I'm interpreting your comments. If that's not your intention, then merely say so and explain what you mean.

But you can't dismiss our arguments and only offer an opinion about why they won't work or are flawed arguments. No jury in a trial would accept any argument without evidence. You may use supposition to talk about the rogue blood mages in act 3, and I can also use supposition to take away your argument, and they'll both be valid because no evidence supports either. So when I made my argument on why the chantry is corrupt, I referred to four or five different codex entries, the novel Asunder, and what we see in gameplay at the end of DA2.

In order to fully discredit my argument, which calls for a reformation, not a total liberation, you need to also show me how I misinterpreted all my sources I provided. Please at the very least, provide more than an opinion. I'm not asking you to dig up lore, but if you know of a codex, you can refer to it and one of us will likely find it and pull it out in its entirety for examination.

If all you're doing is telling us we're wrong, but refuse to use lore, codexes, or in-game canon to tell us how we're wrong, then this entire discussion becomes pointless.

[TEWR]

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Rebelion = system broke?

In just short of one decade there were 3 rebellions against the Templars, two of which were also rebellions against the Chantry-controlled Circle system. Ferelden, Starkhaven, and Kirkwall.

The former two rebelled against both the Circle system and the Templars. The latter only rebelled against Meredith at first and then fought for their lives in the end. The acts of the Templars in the end pushed them to rebel against the current system entirely.

So yes, the system is broken. Because when you can kill all the mages when they're irredeemably corrupt but the mages have no way of purging the corrupt Templars of a Circle if they can no longer be trusted -- without condemning themselves. And it doesn't have to be a violent course of action -- then that says something.

When in one decade, three separate rebellions have occurred, that points to the system being broken.

It's been broken for the greater part of its existence. And it's been breaking more and more over the years.

The first step to fixing the Mage-Templar conflict is to begin providing the Mages greater rights, within reason. We've had evidence to show that when Mages are treated as less then human, things will go wrong. But we've also had evidence to show that when Mages have greater rights but not to the point of Tevinter 2.0, things will go well.

You can't refute the Mages' Collective, the Dalish, the Rivaini, the Chasind, or the Hawke family as evidence. They exist and they prove what I'm saying.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 mai 2012 - 03:50 .

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There is no way to fix the system that will prevent this from happening.

This has to be one of the silliest things I've ever read. 

Your whole argument on several threads where I've seen your posts seems to be centered around not doing anything at all ever to try to make anything better or safer for anyone because it's all pointless and can't work so just sit on your hands and whistle while the world falls apart around you.

Seriously.  There are precious few things in any world that can't be improved upon.  If everyone had your general outlook on issues we'd still be living in caves thinking why bother.

If a prison has riots there's a problem.  A problem of discipline, or conditions or properly containing particularly violent inmates or something.  Even if you are right that certain inmates will never be happy (and I agree) then it is STILL A FAILURE to allow it to escalate into a riot.  It means the more violent elements were not properly controlled and that there is room for improvement.

There are prison systems where very few incidents occur.  Scandinavian prisons especially are pretty good at providing a rehabilitative environment where violence isn't nearly as prevalent as in American prisons as an example.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 18 mai 2012 - 04:02 .

[TEWR]

General addition to the topic: Assuming Sandal's statement about magic coming back pertains to everyone everywhere, then people are automatically going to have to cope with Mage freedom.

Because locking away Mages will no longer be a solution. Everyone would be a Mage.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 mai 2012 - 04:03 .

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Rebelion = system broke?

In just short of one decade there were 3 rebellions against the Templars, two of which were also rebellions against the Chantry-controlled Circle system. Ferelden, Starkhaven, and Kirkwall.

The former two rebelled against both the Circle system and the Templars. The latter only rebelled against Meredith at first and then fought for their lives in the end. The acts of the Templars in the end pushed them to rebel against the current system entirely.

So yes, the system is broken. Because when you can kill all the mages when they're irredeemably corrupt but the mages have no way of purging the corrupt Templars of a Circle if they can no longer be trusted -- without condemning themselves. And it doesn't have to be a violent course of action -- then that says something.

When in one decade, three separate rebellions have occurred, that points to the system being broken.

It's been broken for the greater part of its existence. And it's been breaking more and more over the years.

The first step to fixing the Mage-Templar conflict is to begin providing the Mages greater rights, within reason. We've had evidence to show that when Mages are treated as less then human, things will go wrong. But we've also had evidence to show that when Mages have greater rights but not to the point of Tevinter 2.0, things will go well.

You can't refute the Mages' Collective, the Dalish, the Rivaini, the Chasind, or the Hawke family as evidence. They exist and they prove what I'm saying.

This is perfect.

Others may have said this already, but I'll add that the problem doesn't just lie with the Templars - it lies heavily with the Seekers. They're supposed to be policing the Templars and preventing these kinds of abuses, so where the eff are they?

"Asunder" showed us that some of them possess enough political power to question the Divine, who currently is for mage rights. But all the good she hopes to accomplish could be wiped away if the next Divine after her hates mages. What Justinia needs to accomplish is a return to Chant-based Chantry morality. Andrastians themselves don't seem to understand what "magic is meant to serve man and never to rule over him" means, in that the current system doesn't allow mages to serve man at all. They're ignoring the Maker's will. Then we have these:

Blessed are they who stand before
The corrupt and the wicked and do not falter.
Blessed are the peacekeepers, the champions of the just.
- Benedictions 4:10

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,
From the lowest slaves
To the highest kings.
Those who bring harm
Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker.
- Transfigurations 1:3

Foul and corrupt are you
Who have taken My gift
And turned it against My children.
- Transfigurations 18:1 (couldn't this apply to Templars as well?)

It's also worth noting that the Chant (as much as we know of it - it goes on for weeks in Thedas time) only condemns blood mages (Transfigurations 1:2). The rest of the Chant upholds magic as a gift straight from the Maker. The Chantry needs to take a good look back at their scripture and decide what "provocation" means. Is just being born a mage provocation? Is aggressive spellcasting? Is blood magic? Could they, in fact, be storing wrath up for themselves from the Maker for the way they've treated mages, who are his children too?

Like with most religions IRL, the problem isn't the Chantry's teachings -- it's their people. It's hypocrisy. It's a twisted agenda. They need to "practice what they preach" - but first they need to start understanding the Chant, instead of just memorizing it.

[dragonflight288]

People will interpret the Chant in whatever way suits their own morality and opinions. If the Maker and Andraste came in and told them that their version of the Chant is wrong, they'd still probably find some way to justify it to themselves because it's what they've been taught their whole lives, and it matches what they want it to be.

[rapscallioness]

Well, I've tried to go full Templar just to mix it up a bit. Personally, I don't think either side is especially precious.

But in the end, no matter my intentions setting out to support the Templars, I simply can't abide all the Circle mages being dragged out and executed for something they did not do.

It's not the "cause" I'm supporting in the end, but rather those specific people at that specific time. The last straw was the Chantry debacle. Done by my nutcase boyfriend. I can't let them be killed over something they had no hand in.

So, it really puts you in a bind at the end. Even when I'm trying to role play on the side of the Templars.....I have to choose to support the mages in order to keep these innocent people from being killed.

edit: for whatever that ended up being worth<_<

Modifié par rapscallioness, 18 mai 2012 - 07:42 .

[Knight Commander]

If a first enchanter will turn into a "abomination" and use blood magic willingly means I can never trust another mage again. It proves they're just ticking time bombs, if backed into a corner they will resort to blood magic or turn into a abomination. No normal human, elf, or dwarf has that kind of "last resort option". Blood magic is illegal for a reason. Orisno evens betrays you after you support him. Now I know I will get some "disapproving responses", but compared to Meredith he is more wrong than she ever was (before being corrupt by the red lyrium sword). I also felt that I needed to repay her after she saves your life in the end of act 2. Also even you guys know that she would have not attacked you if you supported the templars at the end if she never had that red lyrium sword. Last thing we have know idea what is "really" going on in all the other countries/provinces whatever you want to call them so don't try to back up your statements with them.

[Silfren]

Knight Commander wrote...

If a first enchanter will turn into a "abomination" and use blood magic willingly means I can never trust another mage again. It proves they're just ticking time bombs, if backed into a corner they will resort to blood magic or turn into a abomination. No normal human, elf, or dwarf has that kind of "last resort option". Blood magic is illegal for a reason. Orisno evens betrays you after you support him. Now I know I will get some "disapproving responses", but compared to Meredith he is more wrong than she ever was (before being corrupt by the red lyrium sword). I also felt that I needed to repay her after she saves your life in the end of act 2. Also even you guys know that she would have not attacked you if you supported the templars at the end if she never had that red lyrium sword. Last thing we have know idea what is "really" going on in all the other countries/provinces whatever you want to call them so don't try to back up your statements with them.

If you have a problem with mages turning to blood magic or turning into abominations when backed into a corner, the solution would probably be to...not back them into a corner.

Seriously, why do so many people think there's something wrong with a mage resorting to desperate measures when pushed into a desperate situation? 

Expecting a mage to adhere to certain rules of morality that EVERYBODY is expected to live by in order to make society possible, that's one thing.  But expecting a mage to die in order to prove how moral they are...that's not reasonable in the least.  You simply cannot point to what a mage does when pushed to the extreme limits of desperation, and claim it proves that they cannot be trusted in a more ordinary situation. 

No, I don't know that Meredith wouldn't have turned on my Hawke without the lyrium sword.  We didn't play that story, it doesn't exist; but we do have lore that points to Meredith being extreme even before the sword showed up.  It is not unreasonable to think she would have decided to turn on us at the end--especially a Mage!Hawke. 

We CAN actually point to other regions to back up our statements.  Sometimes absence of evidence IS evidence of absence.  That may change in the future, when and if we see other parts of Thedas, but going with what we have now, there are plenty of reasonable assumptions that could be made.  The utter lack of abominations pouring out of Tevinter is nothing but a giant refutation of Chantry propaganda. 

[Knight Commander]

Silfren wrote...

Knight Commander wrote...

If a first enchanter will turn into a "abomination" and use blood magic willingly means I can never trust another mage again. It proves they're just ticking time bombs, if backed into a corner they will resort to blood magic or turn into a abomination. No normal human, elf, or dwarf has that kind of "last resort option". Blood magic is illegal for a reason. Orisno evens betrays you after you support him. Now I know I will get some "disapproving responses", but compared to Meredith he is more wrong than she ever was (before being corrupt by the red lyrium sword). I also felt that I needed to repay her after she saves your life in the end of act 2. Also even you guys know that she would have not attacked you if you supported the templars at the end if she never had that red lyrium sword. Last thing we have know idea what is "really" going on in all the other countries/provinces whatever you want to call them so don't try to back up your statements with them.

If you have a problem with mages turning to blood magic or turning into abominations when backed into a corner, the solution would probably be to...not back them into a corner.

Seriously, why do so many people think there's something wrong with a mage resorting to desperate measures when pushed into a desperate situation? 

Expecting a mage to adhere to certain rules of morality that EVERYBODY is expected to live by in order to make society possible, that's one thing.  But expecting a mage to die in order to prove how moral they are...that's not reasonable in the least.  You simply cannot point to what a mage does when pushed to the extreme limits of desperation, and claim it proves that they cannot be trusted in a more ordinary situation. 

No, I don't know that Meredith wouldn't have turned on my Hawke without the lyrium sword.  We didn't play that story, it doesn't exist; but we do have lore that points to Meredith being extreme even before the sword showed up.  It is not unreasonable to think she would have decided to turn on us at the end--especially a Mage!Hawke. 

We CAN actually point to other regions to back up our statements.  Sometimes absence of evidence IS evidence of absence.  That may change in the future, when and if we see other parts of Thedas, but going with what we have now, there are plenty of reasonable assumptions that could be made.  The utter lack of abominations pouring out of Tevinter is nothing but a giant refutation of Chantry propaganda. 

So if an apostate is corned after killing a whole family they can use blood magic? NO it doesn't make it ok and have you seen what an abomination is why do you think it's called one. Also using your own blood for power is just evil, look at the stuff mages do with that power. I never said Meredith was not "normal" before the sword but im willing to bet that none of this would of happend if she was her old self. No we can't know anything about the other regions, it is Biowares job to tell us what is happening we have absolutly no idea. "Absence of evidence is evidence of absesnce" is just rubbish its a videogame Bioware will most likely not add big events about other countries. Lastly Tevinter has slaves look how much Fenris hates the mages they were not nice "owners".

Modifié par Knight Commander, 20 mai 2012 - 12:24 .