1194 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

 I think regular people can never live peacefully with mages. I think mages need their own plane, the one where ONLY mages will live, where they can all be equal, and sort their problems of blood magic and abominations and demons and politics themselves, just like regular people do among themselves. I think all mages need to be gathered and sent somewhere over the seas where they will build their own society with their own hands. I think every mage should be sent there. 

Something like that.

In time the veil in Ferelden will become more thick without the use of magic, and mages will be rarer and rarer, until they won't even be born in ferelden anymore. 

Modifié par KainD, 26 mars 2012 - 10:10 .

[esper]

KainD wrote...

 I think regular people can never live peacefully with mages. I think mages need their own plane, the one where ONLY mages will live, where they can all be equal, and sort their problems of blood magic and abominations and demons and politics themselves, just like regular people do among themselves. I think all mages need to be gathered and sent somewhere over the seas where they will build their own society with their own hands. I think every mage should be sent there. 

Something like that.

And how about the mage who is born of ordinary parents? Given Thedas economy if they are poor enough how would they even afford to send their kid to this country/land/place? Traveling is as easy as you think for people who don't have the money or the skills to buy proctecting. The Isolatists idea is virtueally impossible.

Edit. Violent and a lot of death thins the veil. Mages existance don't in itself. It is death and blood that thins it and you don't need mages to waste those.

Modifié par esper, 26 mars 2012 - 10:11 .

[KainD]

esper wrote...

And how about the mage who is born of ordinary parents? Given Thedas economy if they are poor enough how would they even afford to send their kid to this country/land/place? Traveling is as easy as you think for people who don't have the money or the skills to buy proctecting. The Isolatists idea is virtueally impossible.

The chantry should pay for that. I am sure it costs a lot less, than feeding a mage all their life in a circle. 

[Nathan Redgrave]

Lynata wrote...

It comes down to whether you'd rather oppress a minority or allow entire communities to be threatened.

What it comes down to is whether or not the current establishment is justified or not, which it most certainly is not. Mages can be protected from themselves, and people from mages, without the baggage that the Templars and the Chantry bring into it.

Kirkwall just happens to be the purest example of said baggage.

[esper]

KainD wrote...

esper wrote...

And how about the mage who is born of ordinary parents? Given Thedas economy if they are poor enough how would they even afford to send their kid to this country/land/place? Traveling is as easy as you think for people who don't have the money or the skills to buy proctecting. The Isolatists idea is virtueally impossible.

The chantry should pay for that. I am sure it costs a lot less, than feeding a mage all their life in a circle. 

And why would the chantry pay for loosing their very useable army? Not to mention their healers? They will never do that and they will also never find all the mage children, then can't even find them now. Apostates exists in large number.

[KainD]

esper wrote...

And why would the chantry pay for loosing their very useable army? Not to mention their healers? They will never do that and they will also never find all the mage children, then can't even find them now. Apostates exists in large number.

They would pay, because people would love it. Because they would rather not have mages at all, but they do not feel good about just killing them right away. 

Of course you can't get EVERY SINGLE mage into the other land. I am just talking about a large scale solution that is going to fix MOST of it.

[esper]

KainD wrote...

esper wrote...

And why would the chantry pay for loosing their very useable army? Not to mention their healers? They will never do that and they will also never find all the mage children, then can't even find them now. Apostates exists in large number.

They would pay, because people would love it. Because they would rather not have mages at all, but they do not feel good about just killing them right away. 

Of course you can't get EVERY SINGLE mage into the other land. I am just talking about a large scale solution that is going to fix MOST of it.

Expect the chantry as an organisation cares nothing for the little man. Certain indivudals in it may, but as an Organisation, it cares for spreading Andrastiantism to all four corner of the world. And if not every single mage goes into the other land your whole point is invalid as those that stay behind still is the same danger as those who don't. And being forced to move from your homeland because you are born differently is still as bad as being forced to move to a gilded cage. It is just a larger gilded cage with no wards in it.

[KainD]

esper wrote...

Expect the chantry as an organisation cares nothing for the little man. Certain indivudals in it may, but as an Organisation, it cares for spreading Andrastiantism to all four corner of the world. And if not every single mage goes into the other land your whole point is invalid as those that stay behind still is the same danger as those who don't. And being forced to move from your homeland because you are born differently is still as bad as being forced to move to a gilded cage. It is just a larger gilded cage with no wards in it.

A cage? If a person was living in say Canada his/her whole life without visiting say France or other country, then that person was living in a cage? 

It is a far better alternative than living among regular people for mages. There is no middle ground, the issue won't go away, because people are just simply not equal. So we need to force them into a soceity where they are more or less equal.

[dragonflight288]

They would pay, because people would love it. Because they would rather not have mages at all, but they do not feel good about just killing them right away.

Of course you can't get EVERY SINGLE mage into the other land. I am just talking about a large scale solution that is going to fix MOST of it.

Umm....right. You are literally generalizing every single person and race in Thedas with that statement. Parents, elves, qunari would all fall under that. Dalish respect their keepers, and all keepers are mages. The Dalish can't function without them because their entire societies revolve around Keepers learning the old ways and the old magics.

The Seers of Rivain. The regular ordinary people (largely human by my understanding) refuse to give them up to the Chantry right now. And they willingly let themselves become possessed. And yet those people aren't wiped off the face of the map.

I don't know enough about Chasind societies to guess how they treat their mages. But the point is, many people would HATE the Chantry uprooting every mage in the land. And seeing how the Chantry started getting all their power over mages because of such paranoia, I wouldn't trust the Chantry as a whole to stand for what's right for the mages in the long run.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 26 mars 2012 - 10:28 .

[esper]

KainD wrote...

esper wrote...

Expect the chantry as an organisation cares nothing for the little man. Certain indivudals in it may, but as an Organisation, it cares for spreading Andrastiantism to all four corner of the world. And if not every single mage goes into the other land your whole point is invalid as those that stay behind still is the same danger as those who don't. And being forced to move from your homeland because you are born differently is still as bad as being forced to move to a gilded cage. It is just a larger gilded cage with no wards in it.

A cage? If a person was living in say Canada his/her whole life without visiting say France or other country, then that person was living in a cage? 

It is a far better alternative than living among regular people for mages. There is no middle ground, the issue won't go away, because people are just simply not equal. So we need to force them into a soceity where they are more or less equal.

Expect if you were born in France and was told that you had to move to Canada without your parents and wasn't allowed to move out or even visiting France again because if you did you would be breaking the law. Then I would very much call Canada a guilded cage. (And this is what you are suggesting).

And since it is impossible to remove all mages from society attempting to do will always only deepen the conflict. Mages have to function in ordinary society because there always will be mages in ordinary society. Thus people in Thedas have to find a way to make in function. There is no other way and the dalish manage it. So do the chasind (even if fear of the mages still has it hold there they don't lock them up. ).

[Lynata]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Kirkwall just happens to be the purest example of said baggage.

Just like Tevinter is the purest example of the baggage that comes with mage freedom?

I believe the cold hard truth is that any means of reliable control, protection and safety will come with a certain amount of "oppression". It has to. Mages won't ever be equal, simply because the world works differently for them. These aren't the communist Dalish we are talking about - it is either the majority oppressing the minority out of fear, or the minority ruling the majority by arcane might.

The Divine attempted to reform the Circle system, just like it had underwent numerous small changes in the past - of course, now this compromise is pretty much out of the window. The end result will either be Tevinter 2.0 or a resurgent Inquisition. Pick your poison. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

esper wrote...
Expect the chantry as an organisation cares nothing for the little man. Certain indivudals in it may, but as an Organisation, it cares for spreading Andrastiantism to all four corner of the world.

Then again, of course Andrastianism actually includes caring for the little man. You are familiar with the Chant of Light?

Modifié par Lynata, 26 mars 2012 - 10:37 .

[KainD]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Umm....right. You are literally generalizing every single person and race in Thedas with that statement. Parents, elves, qunari would all fall under that. Dalish respect their keepers, and all keepers are mages. The Dalish can't function without them because their entire societies revolve around Keepers learning the old ways and the old magics.

The Seers of Rivain. The regular ordinary people (largely human by my understanding) refuse to give them up to the Chantry right now. And they willingly let themselves become possessed. And yet those people aren't wiped off the face of the map.

I don't know enough about Chasind societies to guess how they treat their mages. But the point is, many people would HATE the Chantry uprooting every mage in the land. And seeing how the Chantry started getting all their power over mages because of such paranoia, I wouldn't trust the Chantry as a whole to stand for what's right for the mages in the long run.

I am not proposing the ULTIMATE solution to all world problems. Just a solution for most circles. 
Qunari, Dalish, Chasind, Tevinter etc. they can all do their thing, I am not talking about them. I actually believe most elf mages would rather join the Dalish, because they will slowly die off mating with humans in the mage lands, because they don't give birth to elves if both partners are not elves. 

But circles are not happy about not being free, but people don't want free mages to walk around. What do we do?
Gather people from the circles, gather supplies and send them somwhere far away from the people, so they can be free, and not interfere with each other. Anyone else from other factions of mages wants to join? Welcome! No? Your choice. People that would normally be sent to the circle could be given the same alternative - Run away to the Dalish/Tevinter or something, OR go to the mage land. Simple fact is - no mages around most regular people. 

[KainD]

esper wrote... 

Expect if you were born in France and was told that you had to move to Canada without your parents and wasn't allowed to move out or even visiting France again because if you did you would be breaking the law. Then I would very much call Canada a guilded cage. (And this is what you are suggesting).

 

Except your other option is going to the France "prison" and STILL not seeing your parents. And people in France hate you, while people in Canada will treat you like an equal without prejudice, and you will EARN your reputation instead.

esper wrote...  
And since it is impossible to remove all mages from society attempting to do will always only deepen the conflict. Mages have to function in ordinary society because there always will be mages in ordinary society. Thus people in Thedas have to find a way to make in function. There is no other way and the dalish manage it. So do the chasind (even if fear of the mages still has it hold there they don't lock them up. ).

  
How will it deepen the conflict? Mages CAN'T function in an ordinary society, proven for thousand of years. Not until technology give regular people the same age, and they will be able to use guns against fireballs. 
Dalish and Chasind are a less selfish community, they have other things to hold them together. Other societys are very individualistic.

Modifié par KainD, 26 mars 2012 - 10:42 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Lynata wrote...

I believe the cold hard truth is that any means of reliable control, protection and safety will come with a certain amount of "oppression". It has to.

You're denying the search for a better answer because you don't think there's a perfect one. Which isn't what we're looking for. We're looking to balance out the drawbacks, not eliminate them completely--we're not ENTIRELY unrealistic, you know.

Besides, it's that very oppression that causes more problems than it solves. Half the reason mages have to turn to demons and blood magic is that they feel backed into a corner or resent being oppressed. It's human nature to rebel against perceived injustices, and the Templars as they are only aggravate that fact.

[esper]

I don't care about the chant of the light. I care about how the organisation: The Chantry understands the chant of light. And sadly the Organisation understands it as we must spread our faith every where to get our (evil) deity back. They also seems to think that  our belief is superior and we have a divine right to answer difference in belief with violence and oppression and also we have a divine right to overrule the country's secular authorities.

While I don't want to bring real life religion into it think of the bible: It says a lot of good, but some people still takes that good and twist into their own gain. If they church still did that today then the church as an organisation would be evil and the good thing the bible says is irrelevant because the leading understanding of the bible says the it is the worst and baddest understandings of the book which is the truth. Luckely the church is not in that place anymore. (At least not in my country).  

[Nathan Redgrave]

Lynata wrote...

Then again, of course Andrastianism actually includes caring for the little man. You are familiar with the Chant of Light?

I remember the same Chant of Light referring magic as the Maker's gift in the same breath as it gives us that charming little verse everyone justifies the present state of the Circle with. Convenient how all those blighted Chantry yes-men forget about that, because if they remembered it a little more often we might not be hearing all this stuff about how the Chantry loves reminding mages how "unwelcome" they are.

It's... just like religious people in the real world, actually. Faith is a fickle, selective mistress.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 26 mars 2012 - 10:47 .

[esper]

KainD wrote...

esper wrote... 

Expect if you were born in France and was told that you had to move to Canada without your parents and wasn't allowed to move out or even visiting France again because if you did you would be breaking the law. Then I would very much call Canada a guilded cage. (And this is what you are suggesting).

 

Except your other option is going to the France "prison" and STILL not seeing your parents. And people in France hate you, while people in Canada will treat you like an equal without prejudice, and you will EARN your reputation instead.

esper wrote...  
And since it is impossible to remove all mages from society attempting to do will always only deepen the conflict. Mages have to function in ordinary society because there always will be mages in ordinary society. Thus people in Thedas have to find a way to make in function. There is no other way and the dalish manage it. So do the chasind (even if fear of the mages still has it hold there they don't lock them up. ).

  
How will it deepen the conflict? Mages CAN'T function in an ordinary society, proven for thousand of years. Not until technology give regular people the same age, and they will be able to use guns against fireballs. 
Dalish and Chasind are a less selfish community, they have other things to hold them together. Other societys are very individualistic.

Doesn't matter I was born in France in this example and might still feel more France than Canadian and I am four to six years old and want to stay with mommy and daddy not a whole bunch of strangers I don't know. And as I said if the choice is the France Prison or the Canadian prison it is still prison because I am not allowed to leave and am being forcefully removed from everything I know. It is simply to gilded cage. Just the gold on the Canadian prison glimmer a little stronger.

It will deepen the conflict because you keep pressing the point that mages are differnent and not like us, but since apostates wills still exist the problem is still there, and you will only deepen the problem because now the common man can say well the have that pretty place Canadian it is all gold and glimmering and thus the common man will hate mages even more causing and even deeper rift between apostates and man, and the more the common man says mages are not like us the more apostates will say then I don't have to try and be like you.

It doesn't matter that chasind and dalish society are different. They work in that aspect. And so does Rivain. Thedas is a world where mages are born, their societies needs find a way to adapt to that. It is really that simple. And since there are example of societies doing it succesfully, it can work. The societies that doesn't will bow under in its own infight since mages will be born in every non-dwarven society...  Or else the human societies will simply shift between Tevinterlike/Antitevinterlike/Tevinterlike/Antitevinterlike for all enterty.

[Nathan Redgrave]

The major danger with mages is that they may become abominations, right? So why not give mages who've already PASSED their Harrowing more freedom? The choice to come and go from the tower, live and work amongst society in roles that only mages can fulfill? That by itself would give mages-in-training something to look forward to apart from a lifetime locked away in a tower with a bunch of stuffy old people who've spent their lives locked away in a tower.

Make the Circle more like a training academy than a containment measure. Keep the phylacteries so that mages who do go rogue can be tracked, but lose the "prison" aspect. Also, give the kids' parents some goddamn visitation rights. It'll make parents less reluctant to surrender their children to the Circle, especially if said Circle is more of a boarding school than a lifelong sentence of confinement.

Also, fire all the Templars that fail at being decent human beings. You'll have to re-staff almost the whole of the order in Kirkwall, sure, but less mages feeling oppressed translates quite cleanly into "less blood mages and abominations." If mages feel that the Templars are their allies, they won't be so quick to defy them.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 26 mars 2012 - 11:09 .

[KainD]

esper wrote...

Doesn't matter I was born in France in this example and might still feel more France than Canadian and I am four to six years old and want to stay with mommy and daddy not a whole bunch of strangers I don't know. And as I said if the choice is the France Prison or the Canadian prison it is still prison because I am not allowed to leave and am being forcefully removed from everything I know. It is simply to gilded cage. Just the gold on the Canadian prison glimmer a little stronger.

It will deepen the conflict because you keep pressing the point that mages are differnent and not like us, but since apostates wills still exist the problem is still there, and you will only deepen the problem because now the common man can say well the have that pretty place Canadian it is all gold and glimmering and thus the common man will hate mages even more causing and even deeper rift between apostates and man, and the more the common man says mages are not like us the more apostates will say then I don't have to try and be like you.

It doesn't matter that chasind and dalish society are different. They work in that aspect. And so does Rivain. Thedas is a world where mages are born, their societies needs find a way to adapt to that. It is really that simple. And since there are example of societies doing it succesfully, it can work. The societies that doesn't will bow under in its own infight since mages will be born in every non-dwarven society...  Or else the human societies will simply shift between Tevinterlike/Antitevinterlike/Tevinterlike/Antitevinterlike for all enterty.

There is no "Canadian prison!" People there are free. There are no non-mages there. There will be lands, and houses and gardens and rivers. Get it?

Apostates will be in huge minority once most of the circle mages are gone. Each case will be looked through individualy. Apostates DON'T have to try and be like regular people, they have to leave the regular people be, and live fully somewhere else, far away, with people like them, or with the dalish or someone in between. Just not with regular folk.

I believe seperating mages from non-mages will do both factions plenty good. Until they become more advanced and civilized. 

[glitter_guld]

You simply can't separate mages from regular people and send them away, because every father, whose daughter will show even traces of magic will hide it (the fact) and protect her with his life. It is still possible to somewhat separate them by creating circles, but nothing more drastic than that.

Modifié par glitter_guld, 26 mars 2012 - 11:21 .

[KainD]

glitter_guld wrote...

You simply can't separate mages from regular people and send them away, because every father, whose daughter will show even traces of magic will hide it (the fact) and protect her with his life. It is still possible to somewhat separate them by creating circles, but nothing more drastic than that.

What kind of messed up father is that, that would rather see his daughter in a prison near his house, which he can't even visit, rather than send her somewhere where she will get a home, education and freedom?

[glitter_guld]

Any father and any mother would like to have their child with them. It is also valid for real life. Hawke is an example.

[esper]

KainD wrote...

esper wrote...

Doesn't matter I was born in France in this example and might still feel more France than Canadian and I am four to six years old and want to stay with mommy and daddy not a whole bunch of strangers I don't know. And as I said if the choice is the France Prison or the Canadian prison it is still prison because I am not allowed to leave and am being forcefully removed from everything I know. It is simply to gilded cage. Just the gold on the Canadian prison glimmer a little stronger.

It will deepen the conflict because you keep pressing the point that mages are differnent and not like us, but since apostates wills still exist the problem is still there, and you will only deepen the problem because now the common man can say well the have that pretty place Canadian it is all gold and glimmering and thus the common man will hate mages even more causing and even deeper rift between apostates and man, and the more the common man says mages are not like us the more apostates will say then I don't have to try and be like you.

It doesn't matter that chasind and dalish society are different. They work in that aspect. And so does Rivain. Thedas is a world where mages are born, their societies needs find a way to adapt to that. It is really that simple. And since there are example of societies doing it succesfully, it can work. The societies that doesn't will bow under in its own infight since mages will be born in every non-dwarven society...  Or else the human societies will simply shift between Tevinterlike/Antitevinterlike/Tevinterlike/Antitevinterlike for all enterty.

There is no "Canadian prison!" People there are free. There are no non-mages there. There will be lands, and houses and gardens and rivers. Get it?

Apostates will be in huge minority once most of the circle mages are gone. Each case will be looked through individualy. Apostates DON'T have to try and be like regular people, they have to leave the regular people be, and live fully somewhere else, far away, with people like them, or with the dalish or someone in between. Just not with regular folk.

I believe seperating mages from non-mages will do both factions plenty good. Until they become more advanced and civilized. 

People are not free if they can't leave Canadian and are forced to go there. You are simply moving the circle out door and giving it a different name which you find is prettier. I don't want rivers, gardens and  little house. I want to live in the country I was born in, with the family I was born into and the people I grew up knowing the first years of my life - I at the very least want to have the choice to do so.

You cannot seperate mages and non mages because mages are born from non-mages, and non-mages are born from mages.Mage and non-mage is not a faction. Just like being born as a  woman or an man is not a faction. Factions you join, you don't join the mages or non-mages you are born as it. And because of that they will just have a  to find a way to live together because they will keep to be born into each others group. If your idea have to sense you will also have to remove non-mage children from their mage-parentes, because they belong to different 'factions' and cannot live together.

[KainD]

glitter_guld wrote...

Any father and any mother would like to have their child with them. It is also valid for real life. Hawke is an example.

That's nice, but selfish. The child has to be taken away by force then. There is no one to blame in this situation but "nature", but it is for the best of all, not only the regular people but the child as well. 

[KainD]

esper wrote...

People are not free if they can't leave Canadian and are forced to go there. You are simply moving the circle out door and giving it a different name which you find is prettier. I don't want rivers, gardens and  little house. I want to live in the country I was born in, with the family I was born into and the people I grew up knowing the first years of my life - I at the very least want to have the choice to do so.

You cannot seperate mages and non mages because mages are born from non-mages, and non-mages are born from mages.Mage and non-mage is not a faction. Just like being born as a  woman or an man is not a faction. Factions you join, you don't join the mages or non-mages you are born as it. And because of that they will just have a  to find a way to live together because they will keep to be born into each others group. If your idea have to sense you will also have to remove non-mage children from their mage-parentes, because they belong to different 'factions' and cannot live together.

It is a seperation by land. Regular people aren't any more free. They can't enter Qunari lands, because that is not theirs, also regulard people won't be allowed into the mage lands, so they won't have that freedom too. No one is ever completely free to wonder where ever they please. I am not free to walk in my neibhors house, it is not mine. There is only a concept of size. Mages can have a decent size to their land. 

Yes non-mage children will have to be removed from mages too.