1194 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Silfren wrote...

Ahem.  Non-Mages CAN be possessed.  Ths is one thing on which the lore is abundantly clear.  

With the influence of mages.

Ha.  The Seekers and Divine are most assuredly NOT neutral.

Divine seeks to reform the Circle to benefit mages, that's about as neutral as you'll ever get in the conflict. She has Leliana, Cassandra and more Seekers / Templar under her command as not all followed Lambert.

dragonflight288 wrote...

And yet Meredith, just a soldier for the chantry (and Alistair calls the templars an army...which are used whenever an exalted march is called) she also became the defacto viscount of Kirkwall and was able to keep the nobles from doing anything to help run the city, and then proceeded to try and kick Aveline out of the captaincy so she could solidify power. 

 

Meredith didn't abuse her powers, she abused authority which she never should've had. Any monarch, noble or whatever could've done something similar to what Meredith had done, the only difference is that Meredith should've been told to stand down by Elthina long ago.

The Templar are an army, though any army still answers to the lead figure. They're common soldiers, born and raised like anybody else on Thedas, with intense training that instills anti-magic capabilities. Templar can co-exist with society without risk, their only abuse of power is their own.

Thus the "their only soldiers" comment, the one who should theoretically be the one abusing this power is the Divine. Any mage's abuse of their powers would lead to far worse alternatives, they'd be fully capable of doing everything Templar / normal people do, with the added capabilities of all their abilities--such as mind control, which mages have used to their political advantage before--to create far worse alternatives.

Even if mages were answerable to any authority who instantly knew of their abuse, you'd still have to consider how mages are fully capable of doing far worse to protect themselves than anyone else. Blood magic, demons, undead, possession, ect.

somebody else's *car comparison*

Hahahahahahahahaha.

Edit: No.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 mai 2012 - 04:54 .

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Ahem.  Non-Mages CAN be possessed.  Ths is one thing on which the lore is abundantly clear.  

With the influence of mages.

Ha.  The Seekers and Divine are most assuredly NOT neutral.

Divine seeks to reform the Circle to benefit mages, that's about as neutral as you'll ever get in the conflict. She has Leliana, Cassandra and more Seekers / Templar under her command as not all followed Lambert.

The Divine's position supporting reform for mages is NOT neutral, that was my point.  I find it silly to even frame it as "close to neutral as you'll ever get" when the basic conflict comes down to support mages/support templars.  We don't know exactly how things will go down, but as it stands now, the Divine is a supporter of mages. 

And I don't think we can really know yet just exactly how many Seekers remained loyal to the Chantry and which followed Lambert.  All we know from Asunder is that the Lord-Seeker declared the Seekers independent, and that Leliana is somehow involved as an agent of the Divine.  How much do we know about Cassandra, though?  For that matter, is it even clear just where Cassandra's interrogation of Varric takes place in the timeline? 

Dave of Canada wrote...
Meredith didn't abuse her powers, she abused authority which she never should've had. Any monarch, noble or whatever could've done something similar to what Meredith had done, the only difference is that Meredith should've been told to stand down by Elthina long ago.

Meredith's power IS her authority.  There's no sense in trying to claim she abused one but not the other when they are one and the same.  We see this throughout the game, and one of the guardsmen states flat out in the beginning of the game, "She's the power in Kirkwall."

Given that Grand Cleric Elthina is the one who placed Meredith in power in the first place, I no longer think that the reason Elthina did nothing about her is because Elthina was lazy or incompetent. 

Dave of Canadawrote...
somebody else's *car comparison*
Hahahahahahahahaha.

I'll admit that the car analogy is a weak parallel.  The point behind it, however, was simply that human beings spend their lives around dangerous, deadly things every minute of every day of their lives.  We live lives in a constant state of risk of something, because we have accepted that even though occasionally horrific, unspeakable things will happen that will end or ruin our lives...we'll live with the risk anyway.  Usually we're not even actively aware of these risks, but we do it regardless.  People who live in coastal regions that routinely get b!tchslapped by hurricanes every other year are the best example of people who make a conscious choice to live with ever-present danger.  Yet we (they) go right on living their lives in the same dangerous location.  They do this recognizing that there's only so much you can do to mitigate the danger; even if you take the best precautions available, they still aren't a 100% guarantee of total safety.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Forceful possession does exist yes. I haven't claimed otherwise (see the previous page). But it only happens when a demon is in the physical realm, either from crossing a thin Veil or being summoned through blood magic.

Was more in answer to those which were saying mages just had to ignore the demons and they went away.

Ah. My mistake.

Silfren wrote...

Yes, the citizens of Ferelden and Orlais are of a different mindset, but it is the direct result of Chantry indoctrination.

Not really the case for Ferelden.

From the Collective Arming Cowl's description:

Identified by a simple runic pattern on the inverse, this cowl was commissioned by a group of mages who improve the perception of magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

Silfren wrote...

For that matter, is it even clear just where Cassandra's interrogation of Varric takes place in the timeline? 

9:40 Dragon, inside and outside of the now abandoned Hawke Estate.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 mai 2012 - 09:16 .

[dragonflight288]

Meredith didn't abuse her powers, she abused authority which she never should've had. Any monarch, noble or whatever could've done something similar to what Meredith had done, the only difference is that Meredith should've been told to stand down by Elthina long ago.

What silfren said. And if you ignore that, then a case can also be made of her direct subordinates. Alrik, Kerras, and other templars abused their power over the mages .Raping, illegally tranquilizing, beatiing, and just plain harassing the mages. The templars charge is to protect mages from the world as well as protect the world from mages. Meredith constantly makes a case of protecting the city, but she does nothing to help protect the mages either.

As the direct superior of the templars who abused the mages, it was her responsibility to investigate and punish templars who did so. The fact that she doesn't, and that the templars who did those things rose to high ranks, is very telling. I know Alrik hid what he was doing from Meredith, but you don't have so many tranquil mages walking around, those who passed their harrowing making it illegal to make them tranquil, without it being obvious someone is doing something they shouldn't. (that scene with the elven mage and his recently tranquilized lover is disgusting, as it shows what Alrik is capable of, and it's also obvious whose responsible, yet nothing is done.)

Thus the "their only soldiers" comment, the one who should theoretically be the one abusing this power is the Divine. Any mage's abuse of their powers would lead to far worse alternatives, they'd be fully capable of doing everything Templar / normal people do, with the added capabilities of all their abilities--such as mind control, which mages have used to their political advantage before--to create far worse alternatives.

And so many mages becoming desperate enough to call on blood magic and demons...wouldn't have happened in the first place if Meredith and templars weren't so hard on them.

Varic said it well. Meredith sqeezed as the mages resisted. And the harder she squeezed, the more they resisted, the more they resisted, the harder she squeezed.

I can see one or two bad eggs on the mages side. That's why we have the templars in the first place. But when the templars are driving the mages to blood magic in desperation, then we have a problem, and a desperate mage is much more likely to do something stupid without thinking of the consequences than one who possess full faculty of mind.

[John Renegade]

Silfren wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

The problem is that you're making a lot of conclusions about how the magisters feel and behave regarding their subjects. The old tevinter existed for a long time as a 'stable society'.

'They don't have to care about the general populace.' So, what exact way of protection you propose, that could protect all civilians from harm? And I vould like a clear description, nothing vague, please. Also, you should mind the resources available, many people forget to consider them.

And regarding my first sentence, don't call me hypocrite for my statements about possible tevinter magisters' attitudes earlier. I was just offering you a possible alternative to show you that magisters don't have to have only that kind of attitude that you think they have.

Seriously?  YOU wrote a post scoffing at me about my statement on Tevinter, basing it on your assertion that Tevinter Magisters likely don't care about the masses, and now you have the audacity to lecture me for allegedly having only that kind of attitude that think they have?

I think we have enough evidence in game to suggest that research is needed.  The Litany alone tells us that there ARE protections available.  There is no good reason not to invest more time, money, and effort into further research to expand upon what we have.

If you would have bothered to think my post through, you might have realized that I didn't need to prove my opinion to be the best, I merely provided an alternative to your opinion, therefore making sure that [i]you would have to come up with a more deliberate idea. In other words, as long as your alternative was the only one proposed, you could insist that no other even exists. I wanted to make that impossible.

And you nailed it when you said that more research is needed:

1) We may or may not get results  from said research.

2) Those results may appear in the future - which depends on the writers. What are you going to do until then?

You must decide, what to do with mages now, not in a few decades/centuries when (if) the results appear.

Modifié par John Renegade, 22 mai 2012 - 12:24 .

[robertthebard]

Silfren wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

@Rapscallioness: I assume you'd fall in line with the Divine and the Seekers, then. They're mostly the "neutral" party after Asunder.

Are they? I'm not really familiar with Asunder. Is that a DA book? Or..

And I don't want to be neutral. I'd love to have a "cause" haha. I tried to find something to tip the scales for me, but just when I thought I had my mind made up...some nasty stuff went down. I was like wait, I need to rethink this.

Heck, maybe a Warden again. I wonder if a Seeker is going to be the PC in DA3. I think I'd prefer leaving that option up to me as a player. As to what faction I  would like to align myself with. If any.

At the end of DA2, all I wanted to do was hop on that pirate ship and take off. Let them all burn.

Ha.  The Seekers and Divine are most assuredly NOT neutral.  Yes, Asunder is a DA book, set a year after the events of Kirkwall. Since this IS the spoiler tagged forum, I'll go ahead and say it: the Divine comes out in support of mage reform, to the extent that the Lord-Seeker, head of the Seekers of Truth, breaks from the Chantry after declaring the Nevarran Accord to be void, to wage war on mages.  Neither party can be said to be neutral at all in Asunder, but especially not the Seekers. 

I don't think starting the game as a particular class would have any bearing at all on what path you chose in the game.  The way the story has been set up leaves a perfect opportunity for a Seeker PC to decide to support the Divine and the Chantry, or the Seekers themselves, or to allign with some other faction.  There is potential, after all, for the Chantry to be split into two main factions, as well as the Seekers and Templars.

We get that it is, and that the world is on the brink of all out war from the cutscenes with Cassandra and Varrick.  I didn't read the book, but I didn't have to to know that the Chantry, after centuries of domination, is splintering.

[John Renegade]

And Silfren, you said it yourself: Whole society decided to risk to use cars. I will add: They decided so, because they thought, that the benefits outweighted the risk. Why do you think the people of thedas are going to choose to live more dangerous lives, when benefits do not outweigh the risks?

My opinion on the healer mages has been covered earlier.

Modifié par John Renegade, 22 mai 2012 - 12:26 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I know Alrik hid what he was doing from Meredith, but you don't have so many tranquil mages walking around, those who passed their harrowing making it illegal to make them tranquil, without it being obvious someone is doing something they shouldn't

Especially since the law of the Circles says that Tranquilization shall be authorized by both the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter. And the letter from Ser Alrik to Ser Bardel implies -- and I choose to take it as such -- that Meredith was informed of the illegal tranquilizations.

Some people believe that Meredith was never informed at all, though.

So, we can come to a few conclusions based on that:

1) Meredith knew about the illegal Tranquilizations and authorized them, but told her charges not to tell Orsino
2) Meredith didn't know and was therefore either incompetent or just didn't care when more Tranquil mages popped up. Because if more pop up -- Tranquil that she never authorized to be made Tranquil -- then she should've investigated. But no investigation was called for on Alrik.

Either way, it's damning of Meredith

[Nerys]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Some people believe that Meredith was never informed at all, though.

So, we can come to a few conclusions based on that:

1) Meredith knew about the illegal Tranquilizations and authorized them, but told her charges not to tell Orsino
2) Meredith didn't know and was therefore either incompetent or just didn't care when more Tranquil mages popped up. Because if more pop up -- Tranquil that she never authorized to be made Tranquil -- then she should've investigated. But no investigation was called for on Alrik.

Either way, it's damning of Meredith

One would think that Meredith would have noticed at some point over that course of time that there were Mages in the Gallows made tranquil that she had not given the order for. At the very least Meredith is guilty of negligence. 

[John Renegade]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Especially since the law of the Circles says that Tranquilization shall be authorized by both the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter. And the letter from Ser Alrik to Ser Bardel implies -- and I choose to take it as such -- that Meredith was informed of the illegal tranquilizations.

Some people believe that Meredith was never informed at all, though.

So, we can come to a few conclusions based on that:

1) Meredith knew about the illegal Tranquilizations and authorized them, but told her charges not to tell Orsino
2) Meredith didn't know and was therefore either incompetent or just didn't care when more Tranquil mages popped up. Because if more pop up -- Tranquil that she never authorized to be made Tranquil -- then she should've investigated. But no investigation was called for on Alrik.

Either way, it's damning of Meredith

Reading all this, honestly, I can't really make my final judgement of Meredith's character, maybe because I am of the opinion that she would have been a much better character without the whole idol thing.

The whole ending would be better if she didn't go bat**** insane and Orsino... actually Orsino just the same. The deaths of them both no matter what were just so forced upon the player - at least one should have the chance to survive, based on the player's actions.

Modifié par John Renegade, 22 mai 2012 - 02:55 .

[TEWR]

John Renegade wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Especially since the law of the Circles says that Tranquilization shall be authorized by both the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter. And the letter from Ser Alrik to Ser Bardel implies -- and I choose to take it as such -- that Meredith was informed of the illegal tranquilizations.

Some people believe that Meredith was never informed at all, though.

So, we can come to a few conclusions based on that:

1) Meredith knew about the illegal Tranquilizations and authorized them, but told her charges not to tell Orsino
2) Meredith didn't know and was therefore either incompetent or just didn't care when more Tranquil mages popped up. Because if more pop up -- Tranquil that she never authorized to be made Tranquil -- then she should've investigated. But no investigation was called for on Alrik.

Either way, it's damning of Meredith

Reading all this, honestly, I can't really make my final judgement of Meredith's character, maybe because I am of the opinion that she would have been a much better character without the whole idol thing.

The whole ending would be better if she didn't go bat**** insane and Orsino... actually Orsino just the same. The deaths of them both no matter what were just so forced upon the player - at least one should have the chance to survive, based on the player's actions.

I've had this discussion before -- recently, in fact on this necro'd thread -- and what is at fault isn't the idea itself but simply the implementation.

It's necessary I feel for the story. Symbolically, physically, spiritually, and.... any other -ally you can think of probably.

[dragonflight288]

She didn't have the idol at the time of the illegal tranquilizations. It's not attached to her sword when we fight the qunari, but it is when we start act 3.

We can't blame the idol on her negligence here. She was completely sane.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

She didn't have the idol at the time of the illegal tranquilizations. It's not attached to her sword when we fight the qunari, but it is when we start act 3.

We can't blame the idol on her negligence here. She was completely sane.

Technically, this is both true and false. It's true the illegal tranquilizations were happening prior to and in Act II and we know that she acquired the broken idol -- which is far deadlier then when it was originally intact and immediately affects anyone that touches it. Remember, The idol didn't need to be in sword form to affect people.
 -- from Bartrand sometime in the 3 years after the expedition's success.

So while we can't completely -- if at all -- blame the negligence on the idol, we can certainly attest that as is true with many things on Meredith's person it didn't help matters. Just made them worse.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 mai 2012 - 05:07 .

[Silfren]

John Renegade wrote...

Silfren wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

The problem is that you're making a lot of conclusions about how the magisters feel and behave regarding their subjects. The old tevinter existed for a long time as a 'stable society'.

'They don't have to care about the general populace.' So, what exact way of protection you propose, that could protect all civilians from harm? And I vould like a clear description, nothing vague, please. Also, you should mind the resources available, many people forget to consider them.

And regarding my first sentence, don't call me hypocrite for my statements about possible tevinter magisters' attitudes earlier. I was just offering you a possible alternative to show you that magisters don't have to have only that kind of attitude that you think they have.

Seriously?  YOU wrote a post scoffing at me about my statement on Tevinter, basing it on your assertion that Tevinter Magisters likely don't care about the masses, and now you have the audacity to lecture me for allegedly having only that kind of attitude that think they have?

I think we have enough evidence in game to suggest that research is needed.  The Litany alone tells us that there ARE protections available.  There is no good reason not to invest more time, money, and effort into further research to expand upon what we have.

If you would have bothered to think my post through, you might have realized that I didn't need to prove my opinion to be the best, I merely provided an alternative to your opinion, therefore making sure that [i]you would have to come up with a more deliberate idea. In other words, as long as your alternative was the only one proposed, you could insist that no other even exists. I wanted to make that impossible.

And you nailed it when you said that more research is needed:

1) We may or may not get results  from said research.

2) Those results may appear in the future - which depends on the writers. What are you going to do until then?

You must decide, what to do with mages now, not in a few decades/centuries when (if) the results appear.

You know, I'm not in the least bit interested in conversing with someone who tries to call me out for a statement I did not make right after they made it themselves, and then resorts to highfalutin rhetoric instead of arguing honestly and plainly. 

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I know Alrik hid what he was doing from Meredith, but you don't have so many tranquil mages walking around, those who passed their harrowing making it illegal to make them tranquil, without it being obvious someone is doing something they shouldn't

Especially since the law of the Circles says that Tranquilization shall be authorized by both the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter. And the letter from Ser Alrik to Ser Bardel implies -- and I choose to take it as such -- that Meredith was informed of the illegal tranquilizations.

Some people believe that Meredith was never informed at all, though.

So, we can come to a few conclusions based on that:

1) Meredith knew about the illegal Tranquilizations and authorized them, but told her charges not to tell Orsino
2) Meredith didn't know and was therefore either incompetent or just didn't care when more Tranquil mages popped up. Because if more pop up -- Tranquil that she never authorized to be made Tranquil -- then she should've investigated. But no investigation was called for on Alrik.

Either way, it's damning of Meredith

I've always found it interesting--in a suspicious way--that so many mages end up Tranquil despite their Harrowing.  We're told that it's illegal to Tranquil a mage who has passed their Harrowing, and we are NOT told that there are any provisions that permit exemptions to this law in the event of crimes committed.  I always took that to mean that legally there are no exceptions, that a Harrowed mage who has committed a crime is subject either to the death penalty or Aeonar, but that being Tranquiled is off-limits no matter the crime.  That it actually is illegal on the books tells me that the Chantry damn well knows how cruel it is and the notion that it is somehow kinder to emotionally neuter a mage than kill them outright is a myth.  That it seems to be carried out regardless, in many cases, also leads to me to think that the templars damn well know it's a worse punishment than death and PREFER to punish mages in this manner.  Quite beyond Alrik and his sadism, I think a lot of templars just enjoy the added layer of cruelty, especially since many of them clearly don't consider mages to be people at all.  (as witnessed by how many of them denigrate mages as "robes.")

[Silfren]

Nerys wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Some people believe that Meredith was never informed at all, though.

So, we can come to a few conclusions based on that:

1) Meredith knew about the illegal Tranquilizations and authorized them, but told her charges not to tell Orsino
2) Meredith didn't know and was therefore either incompetent or just didn't care when more Tranquil mages popped up. Because if more pop up -- Tranquil that she never authorized to be made Tranquil -- then she should've investigated. But no investigation was called for on Alrik.

Either way, it's damning of Meredith

One would think that Meredith would have noticed at some point over that course of time that there were Mages in the Gallows made tranquil that she had not given the order for. At the very least Meredith is guilty of negligence. 

That's kind of the point.  Even if the Rite was being carried out without her knowledge or consent, Meredith could not have failed to notice the growing number of Tranquils and the decreasing number of mages.  Which means she didn't give a damn.  

Of course, that does lead one to wonder why Orsino wasn't raising holy hell about it, because he can't have failed to notice either, and you'd think he'd at least have complained to Elthina, even if it went no further, given how little the Grand Cleric cared. 

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Technically, this is both true and false. It's true the illegal tranquilizations were happening prior to and in Act II and we know that she acquired the broken idol -- which is far deadlier then when it was originally intact and immediately affects anyone that touches it. Remember, The idol didn't need to be in sword form to affect people.
 -- from Bartrand sometime in the 3 years after the expedition's success.

So while we can't completely -- if at all -- blame the negligence on the idol, we can certainly attest that as is true with many things on Meredith's person it didn't help matters. Just made them worse.

It immediately affects Varric (though, he doesn't seem to go insane if you let him keep it either). It doesn't seem to affect Hawke, or Sandal.

Varric only had a small shard of the idol, not the whole thing, if I recall.  That it didn't affect Hawke can be attributed to plot armour, though I think that was a failing on the Devs part.  We see Hawke struggling with Idunna and having to summon the willpower to resist the mind control, so we could easily have gotten a similar scene with Hawke and the shard.  

Sandal is a special case no matter how you look at it.  We're talking about a dwarf who leaves scores of darkspawn dead in his wake, and whatever he did to that ogre, even though it was clearly magic but being a dwarf, he shouldn't have been able to do it.  I suspect that Tranquils would have been able to handle the idol without being adversely affected by it the way that Sandal was able to.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Technically, this is both true and false. It's true the illegal tranquilizations were happening prior to and in Act II and we know that she acquired the broken idol -- which is far deadlier then when it was originally intact and immediately affects anyone that touches it. Remember, The idol didn't need to be in sword form to affect people.
 -- from Bartrand sometime in the 3 years after the expedition's success.

So while we can't completely -- if at all -- blame the negligence on the idol, we can certainly attest that as is true with many things on Meredith's person it didn't help matters. Just made them worse.

It immediately affects Varric (though, he doesn't seem to go insane if you let him keep it either). It doesn't seem to affect Hawke, or Sandal.

It also immediately affects Bartrand, since it glows once he gets his hands on it. I've always chalked up Hawke's immunity to him being the PC and not due to any lore on the subject -- since what lore we have is very scant. Additionally, Varric admits later on -- if you tell him to get rid of it -- that he was acting crazy. That he may have some semblance of sanity in his interrogation with Cassandra is either a rare instance of clarity.... or the rushed nature of Act III.

The devs have said that they rushed Act III out the door and what happened wasn't "ideal". Chances are this wasn't restricted to the main arc of Act III but to many aspects not fully related.

As for Sandal... well... he's a unique half-dwarf. Perhaps the mixed blood has something to do with it, though we never really see how he handled the lyrium shard and made the rune. We just know that he handled it. Perhaps -- since he is a savant on lyrium runesmithing -- he employed some method that allowed him to safely use it for the unique type of rune that it is.

I dunno.

But it does immediately affect people that touch it, based on what we see and learn of it.

Silfren wrote...

I've always found it interesting--in a suspicious way--that so many mages end up Tranquil despite their Harrowing.  We're told that it's illegal to Tranquil a mage who has passed their Harrowing, and we are NOT told that there are any provisions that permit exemptions to this law in the event of crimes committed.

 

Well, that's only true for in-game. Gaider has said in the past that there has to be sufficient provocation for the Rite of Tranquility to be done on a Harrowed Mage.

Nerys wrote...


One would think that Meredith would have noticed at some point over that course of time that there were Mages in the Gallows made tranquil that she had not given the order for. At the very least Meredith is guilty of negligence. 

Yup! Precisely .

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 mai 2012 - 07:42 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Technically, this is both true and false. It's true the illegal tranquilizations were happening prior to and in Act II and we know that she acquired the broken idol -- which is far deadlier then when it was originally intact and immediately affects anyone that touches it. Remember, The idol didn't need to be in sword form to affect people.
 -- from Bartrand sometime in the 3 years after the expedition's success.

So while we can't completely -- if at all -- blame the negligence on the idol, we can certainly attest that as is true with many things on Meredith's person it didn't help matters. Just made them worse.

It immediately affects Varric (though, he doesn't seem to go insane if you let him keep it either). It doesn't seem to affect Hawke, or Sandal.

It also immediately affects Bartrand, since it glows once he gets his hands on it. I've always chalked up Hawke's immunity to him being the PC and not due to any lore on the subject -- since what lore we have is very scant. Additionally, Varric admits later on -- if you tell him to get rid of it -- that he was acting crazy. That he may have some semblance of sanity in his interrogation with Cassandra is either a rare instance of clarity.... or the rushed nature of Act III.

But it does immediately affect people that touch it, based on what we see and learn of it.

What the hell...?  I just typed out a whole response to this, and when I clicked submit, I got redirected to some random Mass Effect page and the damn site ate my post.  

Gah.  Trying again.

I don't think Varric's sanity has anything to do with being a rare moment of clarity or another example of Bioware's rush job. 

That he was affected by the idol doesn't have to mean he was affected as strongly or as permanently as Bartrand or Meredith.  From what little we know of the idol, I think a few things can be inferred:

Firstly, while it does have an instant effect on anyone who handles it (excepting Hawke for reasons I've already mentioend), it seems to be more "in tune" somehow with baser personality traits, like greed or fanaticism or paranoia.  After all, Varric makes it clear that he considers Bartrand a son of a b!tch--something that Aveline says of the dwarf, so it's clear that Bartrand was never Mr. Sunshine.  We see that for ourselves when talking to Bartrand just befor the Deep Roads.  I think it's clear he never wanted to share the proceeds from the expedition.  Same with Meredith: her extremism and paranoia weren't created by the idol but exacerbated by it.  

Secondly, the idol seems to have a greater effect the longer a person is exposed to it.  It's never clear, is it, just how long Bartrand kept the idol in his possession before selling it to Meredith, right?  He might not have had it very long, but I think it's safe to say he had it for a while, and I think he had it on his person often, if not all the time.  Certainly he has it for longer than Varric.  (How long does Varric keep it before getting rid of it if you don't convince him right away to hand it over?)  On top of that, Varric has a more even-keeled personality than Bartrand.  We don't see that he has any vices that really stand out.

I'm not sure what the idol does.  I've toyed with the idea that it somehow feeds on a person's nastier traits, and inflames them in the process.  Not altogether unlike a demon.

Modifié par Silfren, 22 mai 2012 - 08:07 .

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It also immediately affects Bartrand, since it glows once he gets his hands on it. I've always chalked up Hawke's immunity to him being the PC and not due to any lore on the subject -- since what lore we have is very scant.

In this case, I wouldn't necessarily agree. It's not just that the protagonist can always resist mind effects like from demons and such-- the haunting quest seemed to imply that it specifically only affected Varric (possibly dwarves in general) in that way. He was the only one who could hear the strange "singing" coming from the shard.

I wouldn't go looking too deeply here.  The idol affects Meredith as well, so it can't really be said to be something unique to the Tethras brothers for being dwarves, or something.  It was just a silly case of plot armor.  Not that I recall Varric hearing any singing from the shard.  I'll have to re-play the quest to know for sure.  

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I wouldn't go looking too deeply here.  The idol affects Meredith as well, so it can't really be said to be something unique to the Tethras brothers for being dwarves, or something.  It was just a silly case of plot armor.  Not that I recall Varric hearing any singing from the shard.  I'll have to re-play the quest to know for sure.  

It's not looking that deeply. We find the idol in a thaig, after all. I suspect it's related to lost dwarven magic. It affects Meredith, yes, but only to an extent that's 'conclusive' after a long period of time.

I don't find it all that compelling, sorry.  I think the PC was not affected by the idol for the same reason that the PC was not recognized as a blood mage, or even a mage at all, etc.