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[John Renegade]

Silfren wrote...

You know, I'm not in the least bit interested in conversing with someone who tries to call me out for a statement I did not make right after they made it themselves, and then resorts to highfalutin rhetoric instead of arguing honestly and plainly. 

I just tried to clarify things, I understand that posts made at about 2:00 AM may not be entirely coherent; sorry that you feel wronged.


On another note, my mention about Meredith and Orsino's death was made by association. When it comes to the effect of the idol between act 1 and 2, I really don't know. It's true, however, that based on what happened in her past, Meredith had a good reason to be biased against mages, so...

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

I'm not sure what the idol does. I've toyed with the idea that it somehow feeds on a person's nastier traits, and inflames them in the process. Not altogether unlike a demon.

That's actually the same idea I had about a week or so ago. Great minds think alike.

Filament wrote...

Yeah, still don't agree. They specifically put it in Hawke's banter that s/he "doesn't hear anything" in response to Varric. It's not something the writers simply didn't acknowledge, they went out of their way to point out that it affects Varric differently.

That's not indicative of anything being tied to "affects Dwarves differently" given that Dwarves were already declared able to hear lyrium singing in the lyrium codex.

We already knew that they could hear lyrium singing -- as can Fade spirits. That doesn't really mean that the lyrium idol immediately affects solely Dwarves in a fashion that is "Go insane". All it does is hold true to what the Dwarves were already capable of.

I mean we know it does the insanity thing to Dwarves, but it doesn't mean that Dwarves are the only ones to suffer the immediate consequences and that Humans have to wait a little longer.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 mai 2012 - 09:33 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...
The entry doesn't say only dwarves can hear it, it only says lyrium sings and the discerning ear can pick it up. But the fact that regular lyrium affects dwarves differently, possibly in that way, also because of their resistance to it, only seems to make it more likely that red lyrium also has a special relation with dwarves. In red lyrium's case, it seems to be the inverse.

I never denied that red lyrium has a relationship with the Dwarves. Quite the opposite. I have long been a proponent of a theory that ties the Primeval Thaig's Dwarves and the Red Lyrium to the Darkspawn.

And besides, that Hawke can't hear the lyrium shard singing is proof that his ears aren't discerning, not that red lyrium affects Dwarves differently in regards to insanity upon immediately grabbing it.

I don't deny that the Dwarves and the Red lyrium are linked together, but I do deny the idea that the red lyrium only immediately affects Dwarves when it's interacted with. We know that Meredith heard voices and responded in kind to them, often making it seem like she was talking to herself. It seems that her ears were more discerning then Hawke's.

Or it was louder, since it was broken when she got it and therefore more potent.

Filament wrote...

And it's shown that Anders can't hear the singing either, so it's not just Hawke and apparently not something dwarves have in common with spirits either (or any of the other companions). And of course, it's not just about the singing, Varric gets obsessive about it, too. Neither Hawke nor the companions are affected like that.

This just goes to show that they can't hear it because they're not attuned to the singing -- though perhaps Justice is... -- and not that the idol is something that only makes Dwarves go immediately mad upon touching it.

Varric became obsessed with it because he could hear it and then because he held it. Hawke is the PC and therefore seems to have plot armor in regards to why it doesn't make him go crazy. We know that Meredith also talked with herself -- as early as Act 2 IIRC -- so it seems that her ears are able to pick up on it as well.

Perhaps -- since the idol is a living entity of sorts -- it calls out to those whom it wants to be heard. Maybe it has nothing to do with being red lyrium but rather the fact that something is in the red lyrium.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 mai 2012 - 09:52 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

I find it strange how quickly you flowed from "of course they can hear it and only them, we already knew that, that means nothing" (when it would) to "see, of course it's not unique to them, anyone can hear it and Hawke's just not attuned to it" as it suits the argument... just saying.

I said perhaps Meredith heard it immediately.

Or at least I thought I did.

We do know though that there were rumors abound that she was talking to herself. I never said that she definitively heard it immediately when she got it. That is what I'm thinking, but not what I'm stating as the fact of the matter.

I don't know when she heard the voices and began talking to them. Only that she heard them and began talking to them, where I choose to see it as "right from the beginning". Which as a result means that Dwarves aren't the only ones that go immediately bonkers.

This is a rumor that spread around town during Act II by way of Corff and a Templar, IIRC.

Are the Dwarves linked to the PT and the Red Lyrium? Of course. I'm not denying that.

My position is that Dwarves are always going to be immediately affected by the Idol -- which I've stated -- because they are always able to hear lyrium sing. But my position is also that Meredith is the "discerning ear" the codex claims non-Dwarves can be whereas Hawke and companions are quite frankly not that type of ear.

There's a lot of unknowns about the idol, especially in the timeframe when Meredith got it in act II and when we are officially told of it in Act III.

As such, I'm speculating and arguing based on that speculation. And I'm gonna compile everything about the Primeval Thaig, lyrium, Dwarves, Darkspawn, the Old Gods, and anything else in order to think up one ginormongous theory. It's not gigantic, it's not enormous, it's not even humongous.

It'll be ginormongous.

Anyway, I said Varric is the only one that can hear it because he's a Dwarf and Dwarves are naturally able to hear lyrium -- the codex says that it sings to them and that the discerning ear can do the same. That's the fact of the matter.

I also said "Perhaps Meredith is the discerning ear", since you said that the same codex I referenced says the discerning ear can do the same thing as the Dwarves. I never claimed "She is! She is!". I said that maybe the reason why Hawke and the companions can't hear diddly but Varric -- and possibly Meredith -- can is due to them being uniquely able to hear it.

Because one's a Dwarf and the other may be a person with discerning ears. And thus why they're immediately affected is because they're able to hear it, not because it only affects Dwarves.

I never claimed it as fact.

Which would explain why they're immediately affected and go bonkers, especially when it's broken and therefore more potent.

Or, as I posited, the idol calls out to whomever it wishes to hear it. First comes Bartrand, then comes Meredith, then comes Varric.

He was clearly obsessed before he held it, considering his interaction with the serving girl.

That's what I said. I said he was obsessed with it because he could hear it and then because he held it.
 

And that doesn't account for why none of the other companions joined up with Varric in his obsession, if Hawke is the only one with PC plot armor here.

Because none of them are the "discerning ear" that other races can be, whereas Meredith might've been?

Again, this does nothing to say that only Dwarves are immediately affected with insanity by it. If anything, it just says "If you can hear it, you go insane."

That doesn't mean that only Dwarves go insane right off the bat. It just means that out of everyone Hawke knows and can take with him, only Varric goes bonkers.

EDIT: I'm thinking this argument has become severely muddled, since we're misinterpreting each other's posts.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 mai 2012 - 10:32 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Well, you said as a fact that it immediately affects anyone who touches it. The concession is mine!

Based on what we've seen, Hawke and Sandal notwithstanding since one's the PC and one's a..... Sandal.

So it's either that it affects anyone that touches it or it affects only those that can hear it.

Either's valid it seems, considering what little we know at the moment. I dunno. I can't go on anymore in separate posts because now I'm starting to get confuzled on what I'm saying, what you're saying, what was said and done in-game, and so on and so forth.

How I wish we were told more in DAII rather then giving us only vague tidbits, from which we must draw theories.

Sometimes I wonder if Bioware does this so they can garner ideas from the forumites.

Filament wrote...

Don't know how that accounts for Justice who certainly can hear lyrium in Awakening, unless he was napping in Anders' head at the time.

Justice is like an Abra. He sleeps for 18 hours a day.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 mai 2012 - 10:57 .

[Lazy Jer]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'm not sure what the idol does. I've toyed with the idea that it somehow feeds on a person's nastier traits, and inflames them in the process. Not altogether unlike a demon.

That's actually the same idea I had about a week or so ago. Great minds think alike.

I had the same general idea, but with the addition that it tends to effect people who are somewhat dominated by those traits.  Hawke touches the thing and it doesn't really effect him, Varric also grabs it and similar reaction, but when Bartium grabs it he immediately sells out his own brother so he won't have to split the proceeds three ways.  What's the difference between them, Varric is pretty easy going, interested in money but not to the exclusion of his morals, Hawke...well he's a PC so it's rare anything of that nature effects him so it's more a case of the limitations of the medium.  Anyway the idol eventually drives Bartium into the loony bin, or into an early grave if you choose the option.

The next person this idol effects is Meredith.  Meredith is resolute, uncompromising and not just a little controlling even at the beginning of the game.  In act 3, presumedly after getting the idol, she becomes someone who is apparently sees blood magic everywhere and is so controlling that she directly oversteps her boundries and takes direct command of Kirkwall despite the objections of the local nobility, which by law is the rightful government.  Later on we find that she's got the idol.  Later on in the game she becomes so bat spit insane that she turns on her own people (or at least I think she does, haven't supported the Templars in game yet).  Even Cullen turns against her.  So the idol's possession seems to have a definite time line ending with full on madness.

Now as for why it doesn't effect Varric or Hawk, an additional thought on the subject is that the idol could be sentient.  It may very well have had the ability to effect Varric or Hawke, but not the desire.  Whereas Bartium and Meredith may have been much more attractive victims.

This all leaves us with one question: How off-topic am I?

[dragonflight288]

It's the one lyrium idol to rule them all!

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

I find it strange how quickly you flowed from "of course they can hear it and only them, we already knew that, that means nothing" (when it would) to "see, of course it's not unique to them, anyone can hear it and Hawke's just not attuned to it" as it suits the argument... just saying.

I said perhaps Meredith heard it immediately.

Or at least I thought I did.

We do know though that there were rumors abound that she was talking to herself. I never said that she definitively heard it immediately when she got it. That is what I'm thinking, but not what I'm stating as the fact of the matter.

I don't know when she heard the voices and began talking to them. Only that she heard them and began talking to them, where I choose to see it as "right from the beginning". Which as a result means that Dwarves aren't the only ones that go immediately bonkers.

This is a rumor that spread around town during Act II by way of Corff and a Templar, IIRC.

Are the Dwarves linked to the PT and the Red Lyrium? Of course. I'm not denying that.

My position is that Dwarves are always going to be immediately affected by the Idol -- which I've stated -- because they are always able to hear lyrium sing. But my position is also that Meredith is the "discerning ear" the codex claims non-Dwarves can be whereas Hawke and companions are quite frankly not that type of ear.

There's a lot of unknowns about the idol, especially in the timeframe when Meredith got it in act II and when we are officially told of it in Act III.

As such, I'm speculating and arguing based on that speculation. And I'm gonna compile everything about the Primeval Thaig, lyrium, Dwarves, Darkspawn, the Old Gods, and anything else in order to think up one ginormongous theory. It's not gigantic, it's not enormous, it's not even humongous.

It'll be ginormongous.

Anyway, I said Varric is the only one that can hear it because he's a Dwarf and Dwarves are naturally able to hear lyrium -- the codex says that it sings to them and that the discerning ear can do the same. That's the fact of the matter.

I also said "Perhaps Meredith is the discerning ear", since you said that the same codex I referenced says the discerning ear can do the same thing as the Dwarves. I never claimed "She is! She is!". I said that maybe the reason why Hawke and the companions can't hear diddly but Varric -- and possibly Meredith -- can is due to them being uniquely able to hear it.

Because one's a Dwarf and the other may be a person with discerning ears. And thus why they're immediately affected is because they're able to hear it, not because it only affects Dwarves.

I never claimed it as fact.

Which would explain why they're immediately affected and go bonkers, especially when it's broken and therefore more potent.

Or, as I posited, the idol calls out to whomever it wishes to hear it. First comes Bartrand, then comes Meredith, then comes Varric.

He was clearly obsessed before he held it, considering his interaction with the serving girl.

That's what I said. I said he was obsessed with it because he could hear it and then because he held it.
 

And that doesn't account for why none of the other companions joined up with Varric in his obsession, if Hawke is the only one with PC plot armor here.

Because none of them are the "discerning ear" that other races can be, whereas Meredith might've been?

Again, this does nothing to say that only Dwarves are immediately affected with insanity by it. If anything, it just says "If you can hear it, you go insane."

That doesn't mean that only Dwarves go insane right off the bat. It just means that out of everyone Hawke knows and can take with him, only Varric goes bonkers.

EDIT: I'm thinking this argument has become severely muddled, since we're misinterpreting each other's posts.

I have to admit, there is something to be said about Filament's argument.  I'm not really convinced, but I find their arguments difficult to set completely aside.

Being a templar, Meredith would have regularly consumed lyrium. That right there could plausibly account for her ability to hear the lyrium idol singing.  

We know from Awakening that Justice had the ability to hear lyrium sing, which begs the question as to why Anders couldn't hear it (I need to run through that quest again to get all the companions' dialogue, dang it).  I suppose being fused with Anders could have negated his ability to hear lyrium, though I'd think a MAGE would be more likely, not less, to hear it sing.

[Silfren]

Lazy Jer wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'm not sure what the idol does. I've toyed with the idea that it somehow feeds on a person's nastier traits, and inflames them in the process. Not altogether unlike a demon.

That's actually the same idea I had about a week or so ago. Great minds think alike.

I had the same general idea, but with the addition that it tends to effect people who are somewhat dominated by those traits.  Hawke touches the thing and it doesn't really effect him, Varric also grabs it and similar reaction, but when Bartium grabs it he immediately sells out his own brother so he won't have to split the proceeds three ways.  What's the difference between them, Varric is pretty easy going, interested in money but not to the exclusion of his morals, Hawke...well he's a PC so it's rare anything of that nature effects him so it's more a case of the limitations of the medium.  Anyway the idol eventually drives Bartium into the loony bin, or into an early grave if you choose the option.

The next person this idol effects is Meredith.  Meredith is resolute, uncompromising and not just a little controlling even at the beginning of the game.  In act 3, presumedly after getting the idol, she becomes someone who is apparently sees blood magic everywhere and is so controlling that she directly oversteps her boundries and takes direct command of Kirkwall despite the objections of the local nobility, which by law is the rightful government.  Later on we find that she's got the idol.  Later on in the game she becomes so bat spit insane that she turns on her own people (or at least I think she does, haven't supported the Templars in game yet).  Even Cullen turns against her.  So the idol's possession seems to have a definite time line ending with full on madness.

Now as for why it doesn't effect Varric or Hawk, an additional thought on the subject is that the idol could be sentient.  It may very well have had the ability to effect Varric or Hawke, but not the desire.  Whereas Bartium and Meredith may have been much more attractive victims.

This all leaves us with one question: How off-topic am I?

Yes, that was my thought.  My assumption for why Varric didn't go immediately and as badly crazy as Bartrand was that he is a moderate, balanced individual, whereas Bartrand and Meredith both were ruled by greed and fanaticism respectively.  I think the idol needs a person to have some kind of dominating emotion to feed from.  I wonder if it would affect someone dominated by a more positive emotional state, either by enhancing or twisting it.  Say, Leliana's faith or Wynne's compassion.  It reminds me of a spirit or demon, after all, and we know that all Fade beings feed on the emotion of living beings.  I'm inclined to say no, since we only ever see demons actively seeking out emotional creatures, but we do have info that says spirits feed on emotion just as much.  

The thing's an idol, after all, so I'm totally in with the idea that the thing is a demon (as in, possessed of a demon) or cursed by one, somehow.  I'm starting to think that lyrium itself is sentient, after a fashion. 

Also, I think that Flemeth is connected somehow.  Of course, all roads lead back to Flemeth eventually, but in this case, I do have a sneaking suspicion that she is intimately involved.

[Urzon]

I always thought the Idol effected Varric's possessiveness. Usually when Varric sees something, he sents out to get it, and he keeps it. You can see it with Bianca. When he first met Hawke, he just knew they were going to be best friends. Him befriending Hawke's friends, and the numerous times he kept them safe over the years and helped them out. That and finally, Bartrand. He might not like him, but if you let him live; Varric trys to take care of him the best he can. Because Bartrand is his brother.

Varric is a very humble person, but he gets very possessive of the few things he does have. He also uses all of his power to keep them safe as possibly.

Modifié par Urzon, 24 mai 2012 - 03:53 .

[Reznore57]

I think the idol has an extra "something" from normal red lyrium.If i remember well , Bartrand acted liked the idol forced worshipping on the owner.
It seems a bit different for Meredith , maybe because the idol had an imprint of dwarf worshipping it , or maybe because she melt it to have a sword.(or the fact that dwarf are special when it comes to lyrium and magic)
Maybe it's a sort of evil sponge , with Meredith it just sucked the life out of her (and sanity) to leave a rocky carcass.Sometimes i wonder if what's left of Meredith is dangerous and what became of it.

[Silfren]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Summary:  Posts about Varric, Hawke, Bartrand, Meredith, and how the idol affects them.

As always good post.

I'm not going to dig for quotes, but in my playthroughs the idol fragment you find in Bartrand's mansion did affect Varric.  This is why Hawke takes it from him and gives it to Sandal for the uber-attack speed rune.

So the idol is pretty darn powerful.  One can only wonder what it would've done to Varric or Hawke if they had carried it around for awhile. 

My personal lore is it would've messed anyone up based on duration and intensity of exposure. 

Ie:  Varric was laid back, but he does prize wealth.  Eventually it would've twisted his desire for wealth into greed and then into insanity. 

Bartrand is greedy and unscrupulous - doesn't take long to corrupt that. 

Meredith a zealot devoted to protecting people - not necessarily the worst qualities to start, but zeal has it's drawbacks and can lead to paranoia.  Proctectiveness can lead to oppressiveness.   Then comes the crazy wagon.

Lazy Jer - the untiring voice of moderation

For what's its worth, nobody claimed that Varric was notaffected by the idol.  We've been discussing the very question of why he was not affected AS BADLY.  We've kinda been clear on that point.  Just sayin'.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 mai 2012 - 04:42 .

[dragonflight288]

@ Hanz

You seem to have a level head on your shoulders, trying to stay out of confrontations as much as possible. I actually stopped posting in the Mass Effect section for the very same reason.

I'm just more emotionally involved with Dragon Age than Mass Effect...I have a longer history with this game.

So if you want anything to help pass the time during the summer other than ignoring arguments, I recommend Dragon's Dogma. It's an awesome game.

Back to the topic...the idol is fascinating to think about and make suppositions and theories about, even if in the end of DA3 that many of them may even be wrong....or right.

[dragonflight288]

Dragon's Dogma has a silent protagonist, and the character models can be a little stiff at times, and the conversations can be a little better. But the character creation mode is awesome (my sister made a character that looks exactly like her), has a decent soundtrack, and the battle system is simply incredible.

[dragonflight288]

...not often we see something like that.

So Hanz...your personal opinion.

We all know and agree that the circle system is broken. Templars have way too much power over mages, and they abuse it regularly, and it can't just be kirkwall because there were three rebellions at three separate circles within ten years (Ferelden, Starkhaven, and Kirkwall.)

Now everyone here recognizes the threat of abominations and rogue mage criminals. A few of us have offered ways to improve the system as its obvious the status quo cannot continue, and it won't because the templars rebelled against the chantry so they could hunt down all mages, declaring the Nevarran Accord was hereby void (Asunder.)

What would you do, to fix the system? I promise to give whatever answer you have a good and intent read and carefully consider all the points.

I know you have a problem with confrontations and dislike us repeating our arguments, and I'm sure we're tired of having to repeat our arguments to more than one person, so whatever answers you can think of, I'll take it point by point, and see what I agree with and what I disagree with. I'm sure they'll be both in there.