1194 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Have fun with that Hanz.

[bleachorange]

Bob says NO.

[TEWR]

Hanz54321 wrote...

For the sake of follow through:

I will be unable to finish my answer to Dragonflight's query. Was diagnosed with Pertussis (Seinfeld: "I mean really? The Plague?!) today and have had a lot of trouble sitting up and writing. I'm exhausted and critical thinking is just not on my listo f priorities.

I'm just ging to go in the corner and cough until I pass out.

Damn. Hope you get better, man.

[dragonflight288]

Now you see why i am comparing Mages with Muslims? Because it is.

*head collapses on desk*

Not even remotely connected at all. Completely different issues with their own controversies. I honestly like the muslims I know, but I never want to meet a zealot. But I also don't want to meet a zealot republican or democrat, or a zealot catholic, or a zealot baptist, or even a zealot hindu (my science teacher was hindu, so I knew someone of that religion,) actually, I just don't want to meet a zealot anything.

All zealots can be compared and connected. In the crusades it was the Turks and Ottoman's that the Christian world warred against, and it was strictly for religious reasons, well, strictly stated for religious reasons. The Hundred Year War between France and England had zealots who hates each other despite having similar religious beliefs, but hated each other over their country and a petty squabble on who had the throne.

People practiced slavery in America and Europe before it was outlawed in the past 100 years, racial discrimination decreased significantly in the past 50 years, and yet people today are still touting issues long since resolved as the source of all their problems.

What do all these events have in common? They all had oppressive people and zealous idiots. Taking those facts alone, you can say the Hundred Years War and the armies marching to make sure their sovereign had the throne is similar to the issues you bring up about muslims.

In the end, Dragon Age is simply a video game, and everything that happens in it doesn't even matter because it's fictional. No one was hurt in real life and none of the tragedies actually occurred, making it a perfect escape from reality because we can ultimately dismiss the problems with a fictional world as, fictional. But relatable because there are similar problems throughout history.

Bare-bone facts can make everything connected. It's the details like demons wanting to possess mages, mages needing to trust only themselves while in the Fade lest they lose themselves to a demon, templars needing to worry about a blood mage controlling their minds, that make the issues separate from anything real life has to offer. And because of those details, templars and mages are a stand-alone issue and aren't comparable to the perception of muslims that people in the world may or may not have (may because some do, may not because everyone I know personally does not...but there are always zealous idiots for any belief, no matter how inane.)

So, let's just drop the real life problems, and focus on the fictional problems that we can all let go at the end of the day because they won't matter anymore, shall we?

[TJX2045]

DPSSOC wrote...

TJX2045 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
That'd be oversimplification, you'd be dismissing the why / who / when.

I'm not oversimplifying it, I'm pointing out that it IS comparable to a common real life scenario/template.  The why/who/when is not necessary.

 

But they are necessary.  By ignoring the details you can completely invalidate any position.  Strip away the specifics and gun control is no different than telling someone they can't own/operate a musical instrument.  The reality though is that the two are very different, they need to be considered differently, and as such are not a legitimate comparison.  

But at the same time comparing mages to RL oppression is nothing like comparing gun control to a musical instrument.  Because it is a fantasy world we make real life comparisons because it is something familiar to us, and art imitates life.  So the real life comparisons made to mages and other scenarios is because we see similarities of the basics.

If we can't make real life comparisons because it's not reality, we also can't make comparisons strictly in the realm of fiction because each realm of fantasy is too different.

[Reznore57]

Well Templars are justified.Doesn't mean i agree with how they act.
Mages are born more powerful than your average human.
Non mages , if they have no way to protect themselves from magic , are in a really bad position.
Thedas has no democraty , that's not how it work.
People with power will rule .I mean we can see it .Tevinter rules with pure magic , the chantry rule by the virtue of faith ( and to an extend terror propaganda) , Qunari conquer etc...
And again it's not opression because it's fun to opress , it' also a mean to protect one's best interest.
So we can talk and have idea on how mages can be part of the society and the templars less opressive , but would it work in Thedas ?
Maybe , but my guess is it would take a lot of years...
There's no equality anyway , elf are treated badly , dwarf caste system is really cruel , Human are divided in different country that sometimes fight over each others for territory.
Sometimes i'm not even sure the mages got the worst of it.

[Reznore57]

Except a mage is potentially more dangerous than somebody with a sword.
A mage can be turned into an abomination without even wanting to and murder a lot of people.
I'm sure it isn't something very common , and in this case mages are the victims.

But there are mages hungry for powers , and they have a lot more tools to achieve their goals.
Mind control for example , they used to be somiari that could go into someone dream and influence them.You could push an ennemy to suicide without much effort.

Sure all those mages that are nice people pay for the others.It's not fair clearly .But we have the Tevinter Imperium , ...not the old one , the current one.Mages are the elite.If you're not a mage , you're nothing.Just like under the chantry rules , elves that turned away the chantry, lost everything.In qunari land , you have to follow the qun , or you're turned into a mindless laborer.
It's a power struggle.There is no equality , no one is free to choose what he wants.Or you turn apostate , Tal Vashoth , or Dalish.
The chantry is afraid of mages , just like they can be afraid of the qun.
If mages had just the power to heal , for example , they wouldn't be a thread.
But they are born living weapon , and they can choose how they want to use that weapon if free.

If the city elves had a lot of mages , chances are they would have already revolted.Because they would have the power to.Why mages revolt , because they can , they stand a chance.

[robertthebard]

Nizaris1 wrote...


Templar need justification with what their doing to the Mages, whatever count. So the reason is clearly because of Mages are labelled as Andraste/maker/Chantry/Templar enemy. The Chantry just need justifications, and all reasons to justify what their doing.

Irrelevent information snipped.

The Circle was initially set up to protect both Thedas and mages.  If you need clarification, fire up Origins, roll a mage, and watch the intro cutscene.  After centuries, the power that they had over the mages became more than what it was designed to be, it became open to abuse.  The Chantry became guilty of the same kinds of crimes they feared from mages, including in DA2, the abuse of the ability to make mages Tranquil.  These are the issues of the day in Thedas, and what the topic is about.

[dragonflight288]

It does matter....because in the end...what justify our actions?

Now that is a philosophical question if there ever was one. Different cultures, societies, and even individuals within those sects, all have their own morals, world experiences, which contribute to personal justifications.

Keeping this in the game, 1000 years ago, the tevinter imperium enslaved everyone and openly practiced blood magic and used slaves as sacrifices to enhance their own power. Then they were overthrown in the south, and everyone's experiences at the time was that of subjugation to corrupt mages. So with the rise of the Chantry 100 years after Andraste's death, mages could only use magic to light the candles in the cathedral and clean. That's it, so the mages peacefully protested in the balcony, and the Divine wanted to slaughter them all.

Ironically, it was the templars who brokered the compromise because they didn't want to kill innocents. 900 years later and now it's the opposite. The templars believe they have divine authority over mages and the leadership wants to slaughter all mages based on their religious beliefs and experiences hunting blood mages, and it's the Divine who doesn't want a slaughter.

Samson said it best in Act 3. Mages can talk about peace all they want, but back them into a corner and they have options everyone else doesn't. My thoughts are, why even back them into a corner in the first place? Wait, let me amend that thought, why bother pushing mages who committed no crime whatsoever, into a corner and make them desperate?

A wounded tiger is always most dangerous when backed into a corner and has nowhere to go. Same goes with mages. The templar then use that desperation as proof that the Chantry is right about mages.

I know you agree with this view, but I'm simply trying to keep the focus on the game itself, because we all generally want to avoid real life controversies that are similar. It's because the bare-bone facts are similar that makes the fictional controversies relatable and debatable, and because it's fiction, it's little more fun, whereas if we discussed real life problems, while more important as its real, are not related to the topic at hand which is why should we or shouldn't we support the templars.

We can probably discuss this in PM if you want, or in the Off-topic section, but let's keep the DA2 thread focused on DA2. Please?

[TJX2045]

Reznore57 wrote...

Except a mage is potentially more dangerous than somebody with a sword.
1) A mage can be turned into an abomination without even wanting to and murder a lot of people.
I'm sure it isn't something very common , and in this case mages are the victims.

But there are mages hungry for powers , and they have a lot more tools to achieve their goals.
Mind control for example , they used to be somiari that could go into someone dream and influence them.You could push an ennemy to suicide without much effort. 

1)  Which is why mages go through the harrowing.  Mages who are seen as too weak are made tranquil NOT OUT OF FEAR, but because they, or one of the Templars, know that they cannot master their powers.  All of the mages for the most part that do don't take any deals from demons or become possessed unless they become really oppressed (here come the radical Templars; not all, but the zealots.)  Some of the individuals in DA2 are just made Tranquil because the Templars got bored.

2) Templars can be just as dangerous when they become addicted to lyrium and abuse their power.  Don't forget, they can take advatnage of some "magical" powers as well using lyrium that gives them spirit damage.

I'm not saying there should not be a circle, and that is one thing I disagreed with Anders about; however, the intense oppression is ridiculous.  If you need more proof that some templars, if not most, would think that what happened to the mages in Kirkwall is extreme, take Knight-Captain Cullen for example.

Knight-Commander Greagoir from Ferelden thought that Cullen was too harsh after the circle fell and was reacting more out of fear than out of reason, so he sent him to Kirkwall to distance him from the circle that scarred him.  Even then, he is still extremely harsh and radical.

Add that to the fact that when mages are born magic is seen as a curse and they are shunned not only by Templars but by everyone and that adds onto the oppression.  So when someone reaches their breaking point, of COURSE it makes the mage dangerous.

The problem here is to make sure that those mages who would not turn unless constantly beaten down by the extremists do not become overly oppressed.  You see what happened to the mage during that one DA2 quest where the Templars cornered her and she was scared out of her wits.  I doubt that would have happened if they did not do that.  It may have, sure, but it would have been less likely.  It's a flight or fight, and because she was made weaker from her situation the demon found a weak spot.

Oh and did someone mention Templars raping Mages before?  I thought someone did but that's also important.  Adds more stress and frustration, leaving the Mages more susceptible to becoming possessed.  Just saying.  The Templars in Kirkwall I feel are the lowest of the low.

Modifié par TJX2045, 02 juin 2012 - 06:13 .

[Reznore57]

I know the opression of mages go too far .
But i wonder if it's possible for a world where mages are free , and do not try to take power .
Because let's face it , Thedas is a hard world .Usually you keep people from rebelling by totally bringing them down or numb them with a false sense of confort.
Mages will always be born poor or elf , and then what?What keep them from thinking I'm a powerful being i shouldn't be in this situation.Nothing.
i mean the mages ain't the only one opressed , but they're possibly the more powerful.
Why not kill mages and be done with it ?Mercy?I'd argue that tranquility isn't a mercy.
Mages are useful weapons that the chantry use when need be.Like when they fought a qunari invasion.
The templars weren't the only chantry army , the mages were too.

Beside in the end of Asunder , the mages didn't decide to try to find a solution .They decided to fight the chantry as a whole.If this mages army defeat the chantry , what's gonna happen?
I don't think the elven mages are gonna go nicely live in alienage ,and other human mages are gonna live in nice places like Lowtown (most mages have nothing , and i'm not sure the circle taught them any useful job)

[dragonflight288]

I know the opression of mages go too far .
But i wonder if it's possible for a world where mages are free , and do not try to take power .
Because let's face it , Thedas is a hard world .Usually you keep people from rebelling by totally bringing them down or numb them with a false sense of confort.
Mages will always be born poor or elf , and then what?What keep them from thinking I'm a powerful being i shouldn't be in this situation.Nothing.
i mean the mages ain't the only one opressed , but they're possibly the more powerful.
Why not kill mages and be done with it ?Mercy?I'd argue that tranquility isn't a mercy.
Mages are useful weapons that the chantry use when need be.Like when they fought a qunari invasion.
The templars weren't the only chantry army , the mages were too.

Beside in the end of Asunder , the mages didn't decide to try to find a solution .They decided to fight the chantry as a whole.If this mages army defeat the chantry , what's gonna happen?
I don't think the elven mages are gonna go nicely live in alienage ,and other human mages are gonna live in nice places like Lowtown (most mages have nothing , and i'm not sure the circle taught them any useful job)

Italicized section first.

Let me also ask what's stopping a radical elf born in an alienage who has no magical powers, to question why humans are so superior to elves in the first place, and lead a revolution themself? Nothing. Andraste led an army against tevinter, and freed the slaves. And her army was against the magisters in charge. People died for it, in large numbers. Fenris says slave rebellions happen all the time as well.

There can be just as much damage and bloodshed irregardless of magical power, if someone becomes desperate enough.

Now for the bolded part.

Technically, the mages didn't vote on it. They were about to but the templars already forced the issue and the mages had to fight back against the templar order as a whole because the alternative was death. The templars struck the first blow.

[dragonflight288]

So why the Chantry and Templars are such fanatic? Again, because they see mages are enemies, as shadow of Tevinter Empire. it is POLITIC, not just religious fanaticism.

The game didn't show you that, the game want you find it out. The game give you all the sentiments from both side, up to you to figure out what exactly behind the scene.

It's also religious alongside political. With the whole "magic is to serve man, and never rule over him" in the Chant of Light. It's become part of their very religion.

Cullen says templars have divine right over mages. If you have divine right over anything, it's religious. The circles have their own politics with the fraternities, and the templars rebelled against the Chantry for having different beliefs from the Divine on how mages should be treated, but ultimately it came down to 1000 years of religious teachings saying that mages are born cursed in the maker's eye, etc.

Heck, even Ser Perth, a knight serving Arl Eamon, not a templar, would rather have a useless trinket with the chantry symbol on it over a magical amulet that may actually help him, because of religious reasons.

[Reznore57]

Oh i do believe it's a form of politics and power struggle .
But i try to not see it from the perspective of a world that cares about the well being of its inhabitant.
As far as i know there's no school or public school in Thedas.I guess rich people can educate their children and send them to a academy (there's one in Orlais).
The circle without the actual opression is a privilege that a few can afford.

And i agree that the templars should seperate from the chantry to work properly.

My point is again , in Harry Potter , there's not a lot of people being desperate because they live in crappy ghetto , starve because an harvest is bad , or get raped by an Orlesians Chevalier , because those guys are feared and famous in Orlais.
And in Harry Potter , mages mostly stay with mages and are protected from the outside world , so that's hardly a proof mages and non mages work really well together.

Edit : About elf revolting.Andraste went to the barbarian that already have an army.Her husband ,Ma something, wasn't a slave.
Why elf wouldn't revolt ?they have no weapon?No armor?Are not trained?It would be a butchery not a fight.
In kirkwall some tried but with the help of the qunari.
Now i wouldn't mind having the mages help the elves revolt.I'm not saying that's impossible for a mage revolution to bring good things along , but we saw in Tevinter how it works ...one archon tried to stop slavery .He got killed.
And from what Fenris claimed good mages are mostly powerless against all the blood magic , and sometimes become slaves as well.Doesn't mean it has to happen.But some mages using the rebellion to seek power and rule wouldn't surprised me in the least.

Edit 2: about the fight against the chantry.In Asunder , the divine was a bit on the mages side.So a possibility of compromise could have existed.The templar are also revolting against the chantry .This vote to fight the chantry is an echo to what Anders says "there is no compromise".I'm not saying that mages are wrong to not take their chances with the divine .But there were mages like Wynne that were against it , and Rhys to an extent.Because let's face it , it will be bloody.

Modifié par Reznore57, 02 juin 2012 - 07:32 .

[dragonflight288]

In DA:O, there is a way to deny mind control of blood magic, it written by a bard, i always question this...why this "spell" hidden in Circle Tower store? We use it to against Uldred. It is called Lithany of Andralla

Wynne says it was written by a bard, but the Litany description refers to Adralla as a mage, and in Asunder it's confirmed that Adralla was actually a Tevinter Magister who fled Tevinter for her research into fighting blood magic.

She was a mage and likely a blood mage who helped non-Imperium countries fight the controlling influence of blood magic. They had it in storage, likely so the templars could have easy access to it before hunting maleficar? Only there was an abomination outbreak that kept everyone divided and Gregoire locked the entryway to await reinforcements.

It seems to be the mages know about it, for sure Templar and Chantry know too. So why so much fear blood magic? Why they don't teach this spell to everyone?????

Why do templars use phylacteries to track down mages when the phylacteries could be considered blood magic itself for using a mages blood, yet condemn all other forms of blood magic? Why does the chantry not consider a templar's powers a form of magic, when all it is really is a lesser ability from the school of spirit? (my mage run-through, I specialized in spirit magic and was an arcane warrior, so I may as well have been an overpowered templar. I had all the templar abilities to fight mages and negate magics, armor and a sword)

[Reznore57]

No but to fight mind control , you got to be aware there is mind control.
In Asunder , the Lithany is used to free a character from the mind control of a demon.
But the mages that was under the mind control didn't know it , and neither is friend.
It took a seasoned Seeker who live years in Tevinter to know what was going on.
It's easy to know there's mind control when there's crazy abomination everywhere.But that's not always the case , it can be very subtle.
And again if there's a lot of possibility of mind control , people are gonna get freaking paranoid .:s
Must be fun living in Tevinter

[dragonflight288]

Yeah, i build that one too smilie and it is awesome!

Yeah it is. Animating the dead is also fun, again, not necessarily blood magic either. It's a school of spirit spell (something DA2 either forgot about, or it went along with the misconception mentioned in the school of spirit's description that it's often mistaken for blood magic.)