1194 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I know the opression of mages go too far .
But i wonder if it's possible for a world where mages are free , and do not try to take power .
Because let's face it , Thedas is a hard world .Usually you keep people from rebelling by totally bringing them down or numb them with a false sense of confort.
Mages will always be born poor or elf , and then what?What keep them from thinking I'm a powerful being i shouldn't be in this situation.Nothing.
i mean the mages ain't the only one opressed , but they're possibly the more powerful.
Why not kill mages and be done with it ?Mercy?I'd argue that tranquility isn't a mercy.
Mages are useful weapons that the chantry use when need be.Like when they fought a qunari invasion.
The templars weren't the only chantry army , the mages were too.

Beside in the end of Asunder , the mages didn't decide to try to find a solution .They decided to fight the chantry as a whole.If this mages army defeat the chantry , what's gonna happen?
I don't think the elven mages are gonna go nicely live in alienage ,and other human mages are gonna live in nice places like Lowtown (most mages have nothing , and i'm not sure the circle taught them any useful job)

Italicized section first.

Let me also ask what's stopping a radical elf born in an alienage who has no magical powers, to question why humans are so superior to elves in the first place, and lead a revolution themself? Nothing. Andraste led an army against tevinter, and freed the slaves. And her army was against the magisters in charge. People died for it, in large numbers. Fenris says slave rebellions happen all the time as well.

There can be just as much damage and bloodshed irregardless of magical power, if someone becomes desperate enough.

Now for the bolded part.

Technically, the mages didn't vote on it. They were about to but the templars already forced the issue and the mages had to fight back against the templar order as a whole because the alternative was death. The templars struck the first blow.

I had a City Elf that did just that, and became a Grey Warden, after killing an Arl's son for his excesses.

[dragonflight288]

I had a City Elf that did just that, and became a Grey Warden, after killing an Arl's son for his excesses.

Cool.

[unreadierLizard]

I lost all sympathy with the mages after every time I tried to go pro-mage, it came back to bite me hard.

Save these mages? They end up blood mages later.

Most of the Kirkwall Circle ends up becoming abominations or summoning demons or practising blood magic by the end of the game, even if you side with them. The First Enchanter turned out to have been helping the dude who killed Hawk's mother.

No way I was siding with them again. I game them chance after chance and all I got was "lol let's do blood magic everyone". I think the only "good" mage I've met is Bethany.

[dragonflight288]

Save these mages? They end up blood mages later.

Only after pushed to the brink and are desperate. If they turned into blood mages and they weren't beaten for talking to civilians, illegally made tranquil, told from birth they're cursed by the maker, and don't have drug-addicted zealots trying to run them through with a sword....then I'd be able to support the templars. A criminal is a criminal. Fighting in self-defense isn't a crime.

[unreadierLizard]

True, but when almost every single mage with the exception of Bethany talks about how oppressed they are followed by them going to blood magic at the FIRST SIGN of trouble, it really does make ya think that the Templars, for all their fanaticism, may be right.

[Rinshikai10]

I'm just going to point out again that the reason that we see so many blood mages is due more to gameplay. It was Mike or David that said that they wanted to have more moderates. It just never got in to the final game.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 04 juin 2012 - 02:51 .

[Lazy Jer]

PraetorianNova wrote...
True, but when almost every single mage with the exception of Bethany talks about how oppressed they are followed by them going to blood magic at the FIRST SIGN of trouble, it really does make ya think that the Templars, for all their fanaticism, may be right.

Well let's not exaggerate.  The gal that Anders almost kills/does kill doesn't go to blood magic, nor does Fanriel seem to, Alien or whatever his name was doesn't, plus there's a bunch of circle mages whose final fate, if you side with the mages is indetermined.

Basically, not all Templars are fanatics and not all mages are Terhone.

[Althix]

mages are dangerous, look at Anders he made a C4 with dragon poop!

[Lazy Jer]

secretsandlies wrote...

mages are dangerous, look at Anders he made a C4 with dragon poop!

Is magic really to blame for that?  I always blamed it on Anders being a demented weirdo with too much time on his hands.  The only reason he didn't figure it out sooner is because he focused most of his attention on Ser Pounce-A-Lot.

[robertthebard]

secretsandlies wrote...

mages are dangerous, look at Anders he made a C4 with dragon poop!

That was miles closer to a tactical nuke than C4, I've seen C4 blow up, and it wishes it was that good.

[dragonflight288]

True, but when almost every single mage with the exception of Bethany talks about how oppressed they are followed by them going to blood magic at the FIRST SIGN of trouble, it really does make ya think that the Templars, for all their fanaticism, may be right.

That may be true, or it may be a problem with the narrative. Hawke never lived in the Circle, and the mage origin is only given the Harrowing and roughly half a day of life within it that we gamers see in Ferelden. We cannot honestly say what the first sign actually was.

[Althix]

there is difference betweeen DA:OA Anders and DA2 Anders.
DA:OA is better than DA2. That is why DA:OA Anders killed a Mother and Architect (well or helped with that) he was a Grey Warden.
DA2 Anders is a pitiful, weak person, who see a problem from single angle, and that is why he died with a dagger in his spine.

Yes i can't blame all mages for his mistakes, however i can't blame templars as well. Circle isn't working. It never did.
There is of course exist very harsh solution for Mages problem, but you know... you need proper indoctrination and education for this solution to work. Mages are not people, they are cursed and blessed by their gift. They are not humans in general meaning of this word, they are Mages.

[TEWR]

secretsandlies wrote...

mages are dangerous, look at Anders he made a C4 with dragon poop!

I will dispute -- until proven otherwise by incontrovertible fact -- that Anders' bomb is something that only a Mage can accomplish.

It seems to me that he only mixed together ingredients for gunpowder -- obviously -- as well as magical ingredients. However, using magical ingredients is not something that only a Mage can do. It's very clearly established that anyone can mix together magical ingredients.

Look at Dworkin, who created Lyrium Bombs using Qunari explosives as a basis for his work -- which is probably where Anders truly learned how to make what he did. Then look at the Warden and party who can create various bombs using Fire Crystals. Finally, Lady Elegant and Tomwise do the same thing.

So, from what I know, all that scene really shows is that anyone can now create an explosive device capable of the same level of destruction Abominations or Rogue Maleficarum would cause.

Meaning that to say Mages are dangerous because of a bomb that anyone can probably create -- again, based on what I know right now -- isn't entirely a factual declaration.

Are Mages dangerous if they make such a thing? Undeniably. But so is the rest of civilization, if they did the same thing.

[Plaintiff]

PraetorianNova wrote...

True, but when almost every single mage with the exception of Bethany talks about how oppressed they are followed by them going to blood magic at the FIRST SIGN of trouble, it really does make ya think that the Templars, for all their fanaticism, may be right.

Considering that the templars have been illegally tranquiling, beating and raping mages since before the game even starts, I would hardly call it a "first sign".

When is the first sign of trouble, by your judgement? Do mages have to wait until their own lives are actively threatened, or are they allowed to react when their fellows start dropping like flies?

"Okay, so Ser Alrik illegally tranquiled my roommate and now uses her as a mindless sex slave. But I'll probably be fine. No need to get worked up over a little incident like that."

[Althix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Are Mages dangerous if they make such a thing? Undeniably. But so is the rest of civilization, if they did the same thing.

no mages are dangerous because they consider them self as man. when they are not. Maybe Anders always wanted something to eat, to drink and some pretty girl. But there is always another mage who wants power to dominate the others, who wants more, more and after that even more. And you know what? That Mage have a power to do so and resources as well if need be.
Mages are not humans, not elfes. They are Mages. As soon they will understand that simple fact the better, they either will inspire fear and respect, or their heads will roll.

Qun calls their mages Saarebas - which means a "dangerous thing" - that's exactly what Mages are.

as for dwarf, yes he actually did lyrium bombs to battle darkspawn, not to level buildings with harmless priests inside. So Anders is a murderer, make no mistake with that.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 05 juin 2012 - 09:57 .

[steven20011]

A year ago I saw a post called : How can anyone support the Mages

It depends on the person.
I choose mages first time ecasue most templars are bastards but I choose to side with the templars with the tervinter imperium in mind,

[Urzon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Look at Dworkin, who created Lyrium Bombs using Qunari explosives as a basis for his work -- which is probably where Anders truly learned how to make what he did. Then look at the Warden and party who can create various bombs using Fire Crystals. Finally, Lady Elegant and Tomwise do the same thing.

So, from what I know, all that scene really shows is that anyone can now create an explosive device capable of the same level of destruction Abominations or Rogue Maleficarum would cause.

Meaning that to say Mages are dangerous because of a bomb that anyone can probably create -- again, based on what I know right now -- isn't entirely a factual declaration.

Unless he lied to Hawke when asked about it, Anders said that the recipe for the "balm" was Tevinter in origin. Which could imply that there is magic involving in the making of it, since Tevinter uses magic in just about everything. Even more so if it was developed by the Magisters.
The bigger question is why the Imperium haven't used it against the Qunari, if it seems so easy to make...

[robertthebard]

Plaintiff wrote...

PraetorianNova wrote...

True, but when almost every single mage with the exception of Bethany talks about how oppressed they are followed by them going to blood magic at the FIRST SIGN of trouble, it really does make ya think that the Templars, for all their fanaticism, may be right.

Considering that the templars have been illegally tranquiling, beating and raping mages since before the game even starts, I would hardly call it a "first sign".

When is the first sign of trouble, by your judgement? Do mages have to wait until their own lives are actively threatened, or are they allowed to react when their fellows start dropping like flies?

"Okay, so Ser Alrik illegally tranquiled my roommate and now uses her as a mindless sex slave. But I'll probably be fine. No need to get worked up over a little incident like that."

While the situation isn't funny, this line is.

You do have to love how selective "hearing" works in this little drama.  Mages are dangerous because they can abuse their gift/curse.  Yet the Templars are justified in abusing their power.  There is a big difference between acting as a guardian, the role Templars are supposed to fill, and being no better than a Tevinter Magister, mishandling your "slaves".  This is the role that the Templars in Kirkwall have assumed.  How is one slaver bad, but another good?  Mages are undeniably dangerous, but as has been pointed out, Dwarves already have explosives, and so do the Qunari.  Either could have been used with equal effectiveness, if not resulting in such a "pretty" explosion.

[robertthebard]

Urzon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Look at Dworkin, who created Lyrium Bombs using Qunari explosives as a basis for his work -- which is probably where Anders truly learned how to make what he did. Then look at the Warden and party who can create various bombs using Fire Crystals. Finally, Lady Elegant and Tomwise do the same thing.

So, from what I know, all that scene really shows is that anyone can now create an explosive device capable of the same level of destruction Abominations or Rogue Maleficarum would cause.

Meaning that to say Mages are dangerous because of a bomb that anyone can probably create -- again, based on what I know right now -- isn't entirely a factual declaration.

Unless he lied to Hawke when asked about it, Anders said that the recipe for the "balm" was Tevinter in origin. Which could imply that there is magic involving in the making of it, since Tevinter uses magic in just about everything. Even more so if it was developed by the Magisters.
The bigger question is why the Imperium haven't used it against the Qunari, if it seems so easy to make...

Since he lied about everything else involving the bomb, why assume he was telling the truth about one detail of it?  It may well be that he was, or it may be that it's something he either came up with himself, or some bit of lost knowledge that he found somewhere else.  It's really hard to say.

[TEWR]

Urzon wrote...

Unless he lied to Hawke when asked about it, Anders said that the recipe for the "balm" was Tevinter in origin. Which could imply that there is magic involving in the making of it, since Tevinter uses magic in just about everything. Even more so if it was developed by the Magisters.
The bigger question is why the Imperium haven't used it against the Qunari, if it seems so easy to make...

He does say, if probed, that he lied about the potion. One could reasonably assume the origins of the potion that he told Hawke was part of that lie as well.

But if the Imperium did know how to make it, I have to echo your question of why they aren't using it.

secretsandlies wrote...

no mages are dangerous because they consider them self as man

Because they are people.

secretsandlies wrote...
. when they are not

Give for me the parameters of what defines a person as being a part of mankind.

secretsandlies wrote
. Maybe Anders always wanted something to eat, to drink and some pretty girl. But there is always another mage who wants power to dominate the others, who wants more, more and after that even more.

And there's always going to be some non-Mage that wants authority over the common man in order to abuse the power associated with it, because he/she sees himself/herself as being so special.

Examples: Meredith, Lady Liza Packton, Arl Rendon Howe, Bann Esmerelle, the Chantry and Templars, etc.

secretsandlies wrote....
And you know what? That Mage have a power to do so and resources as well if need be.

No they don't. Not unless they organize a band of Mages in collaboration with the Tevinter Imperium to recreate the Imperium and go unnoticed by the Chantry and Templars.

Which, you know, hasn't happened.

I don't think you really understand what it would take for Imperium 2.0 to occur in the Dragon Age setting prior to the Circles rebelling.

secretsandlies wrote...
Mages are not humans, not elfes. They are Mages. As soon they will understand that simple fact the better, they either will inspire fear and respect, or their heads will roll.

Again, define the parameters of what constitutes mankind.

Because you can claim "They're not people at all!" all you want, but you're not even remotely correct.

As soon as you understand that simple fact, the better this discussion will be.

secretsandlies wrote....
Qun calls their mages Saarebas - which means a "dangerous thing" - that's exactly what Mages are.

They also respect their Mages for being a living embodiment of the Qun. I've argued in the past that what they do is out of some warped sense of caring for the Mage, because they still see them as people despite the title they give them.

secretsandlies wrote....

as for dwarf, yes he actually did lyrium bombs to battle darkspawn, not to level buildings with harmless priests inside. So Anders is a murderer, make no mistake with that.

First off, this is irrelevant. I was talking about the capabilities non-Mages can do now, not what those explosives that are known about are actually used for. I had used as a point Dworkin's established work with magical ingredients -- the lyrium sand and lyrium dust.

It doesn't matter that Dworkin uses his explosives for Darkspawn. That has nothing to do with my point that magical ingredients can be mixed together by anyone. All it takes is one non-Mage to take that recipe and use it for his own ends and he will achieve a level of destruction equal to -- if not greater -- then an Abomination.

Secondly, I wasn't contesting he's a murderer, so why you thought I was contesting that is beyond me. Whether he's a justified murderer or not is debateable -- and that's good. It sparks discussion on the matter.

Third, Elthina is not harmless nor is she innocent. She may not have been going out into the city streets naked with a knife in hand and bathing in the blood of her enemies, but her actions -- or rather lack of them -- towards Meredith's grab for the Viscount's throne had a direct effect on the danger in Kirkwall.

She was dense to the reality of the situation: Siding with the Mages in that instance does not in any way, shape, or form mean that she supports wholesale Mage freedom. It simply means that the Mages are right that Meredith, her like-minded cronies, and the policies set forth by those types of Templars do more harm then good.

The Mages never wanted an end to the Circle. They wanted an end to Meredith.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 juin 2012 - 01:04 .

[ArcanistLibram]

I support the Templars because every single Mage I help turns into a Blood Mage and tries to kill me. The only exceptions are the Apostitute and the Orlesian guy.

[Althix]

justified murderer? yeah that reminds me a guy who opened fire in Turku's Mall because he was out of job. Or 9/11. Justified indeed. He is a terrorist, a murderer and also abomination.
Grand Cleric Elthina and her lack of action is not a reason to blow her sky high along with other servants of the Chantry and possibly with some town folk that was inside or nearby the Chantry.

Dworkin work with lyrium died with him, as it's stated in the end of DA:OA. There were clues about how to reproduce it however. So i guess not anyone can do that.

Humans hunger, they have desires, they have need. They have emotions that affects their judgement. That is why Mages are dangerous even seasoned Mages, and that is why Saarebas is a part on the Qun. They always under watchfull eye of Arvaarad. They are example of highest virtues of the Qun. Mages - are not, they desire to be a man, when they are far superior to it.
Circe must be reworked, indoctrination and education must be applied to the Mages, they should understand that they are no common folk with low desires. Mages transend far beyond capabilities of ordinary man. And that is why Mages should strife to be an example for the other people. Examples of duty, self control, strenght of mind and body.

[dragonflight288]

Okay secretsandlies.

I have studied basic philosophy, so I can probably have an understanding if you lay out a simple argument.

If mages aren't men and women, but something different, then what is man? What is woman?

Give to me the basics of what makes up a man and woman, and if another person who has a similar build, same number of limbs, the ability to reason and think for themselves, emotions, and why they can't be considered humans.

Before telling me mages aren't really human or elven because of their power, tell me what is a man or woman. What constitutes personhood? (the mage origin can have this very debate with Owain the tranquil)

[TEWR]

secretsandlies wrote...

justified murderer? yeah that reminds me a guy who opened fire in Turku's Mall because he was out of job. Or 9/11. Justified indeed. He is a terrorist, a murderer and also abomination.

Congratulations! You have twisted my words to suit your own agenda! Let's see what you've won today!

Absolutely nothing!

9/11 isn't justified -- and God Almighty, let's not beat that dead horse again in an Anders thread, because it's hardly the same -- nor is that man who was out of a job justified.

9/11 was the work of zealots (or if you're a conspiracy person, the U.S. Government). That man who had no job isn't justified, probably because he was insane.

Yes Anders is both a zealot and insane by the time Act III rolls around. But his actions serve a point.

1) To showcase how far the Templars will go if they are the ones in charge of the Circle now and the Circle had nothing to do with the destruction of the Chantry.
2) To highlight that for the past 1000 years, abuse of Mages has happened.
3) To show Mages that it's better to die fighting then it is to live on your knees.

That's only from the pro-mage spectrum. As I said, his actions can be argued as being justified or not. I never said in my post that I agreed with his actions or justified them -- though for the sake of discussion since you presumed that, yes I do justify his actions.

But Anders is not the 9/11 terrorists. Context matters in this case. 

Grand Cleric Elthina and her lack of action is not a reason to blow her sky high along with other servants of the Chantry and possibly with some town folk that was inside or nearby the Chantry.

With her out of the way, Meredith was granted authority on whether the RoA could be performed or not. Because Elthina wasn't there to stonewall Meredith's desires, Meredith saw an opportunity to finally act on her biased and insane perception of the Mages of the Circle.

So yes, it did have a reason. I'm fairly certain that Anders was counting on Meredith overreacting to this state of events so that it would show how far the Templars would go when 1) the culprit was awaiting justice on a crate and 2) the Circle Mages had nothing to do with it.

And also, if you look at how Anders' bomb plays out, you can see a vortex sucking up all the debris from the Chantry and tossing it a great deal away from the City.

More then likely Anders -- or Justice/Vengeance -- wanted to keep casualties to a minimum.

Additionally, Anders states on the Rivalry path that come midnight things would change and it wouldn't matter anymore, so it seems that he planned to have civilian casualties at a definite minimum if he planned on having the bomb detonate at night.

Dworkin work with lyrium died with him, as it's stated in the end of DA:OA. There were clues about how to reproduce it however. So i guess not anyone can do that.

Three things:

1) Dworkin isn't dead. The end of DAO:A explicitly states that he went into hiding, not that he was killed.
2) #1 is made evident in the quest Finding Nathaniel where Dworkin's cousin Temmerin says he was driven into hiding.
3) Dworkin's cousin and the Wardens are using Dworkin's work to do some excavations on the Primeval Thaig and any Thaigs surrounding it.

Humans hunger, they have desires, they have need. They have emotions that affects their judgement. That is why Mages are dangerous even seasoned Mages, and that is why Saarebas is a part on the Qun. They always under watchfull eye of Arvaarad. They are example of highest virtues of the Qun. Mages - are not, they desire to be a man, when they are far superior to it.

Mankind is not defined by the amount of power one wields. It is defined by what one feels, thinks, and does.

Circe must be reworked, indoctrination and education must be applied to the Mages, they should understand that they are no common folk with low desires. Mages transend far beyond capabilities of ordinary man. And that is why Mages should strife to be an example for the other people. Examples of duty, self control, strenght of mind and body.

I've never argued against reformation of the Circle and Templar system. But that's not going to happen without the Mages revolting and showing that they are people too, deserving of things anyone else has. Because the Templars and Seekers -- the majority anyway -- are not open to being pro-mage in the slightest, due in part to the method of recruitment the Chantry has employed (religious fervor over moral compass).

Thus we have the New Inquisition.

Divine Justinia V -- who is a supporter of Mage rights -- was finding enemies in both the Templars and the Seekers. So much so that they contemplated having her killed in favor of someone more malleable to less Mage-friendly interests. Eventually, they declared the Nevarran Accord void so that they could hunt down the Mages -- who revolted because even more rights were being taken away.

No doubt those same Templars and Seekers that agreed with Lambert are going to go after Justinia V as well.

If the Divine of the Chantry is facing insurrection from the people that are supposed to follow her and be loyal to her, then reformation is not going to come easily. Reformation will only come with rebellion. The Mages are not against receiving more rights in exchange for other things. Templars and Seekers -- the majority, anyway -- are.

To think otherwise at this time is folly.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 juin 2012 - 05:23 .