1194 réponses à ce sujet

[Lazy Jer]

secretsandlies wrote...
Humans hunger, they have desires, they have need. They have emotions that affects their judgement. That is why Mages are dangerous even seasoned Mages, and that is why Saarebas is a part on the Qun. They always under watchfull eye of Arvaarad. They are example of highest virtues of the Qun. Mages - are not, they desire to be a man, when they are far superior to it.

Circe must be reworked, indoctrination and education must be applied to the Mages, they should understand that they are no common folk with low desires. Mages transend far beyond capabilities of ordinary man. And that is why Mages should strife to be an example for the other people. Examples of duty, self control, strenght of mind and body.

First of all the Qunari are a bad example for what should be considered "ordinary".  The feel that anyone who hasn't accepted the Qun not be human, for lack of a better term.  What do you think it means when they refer to people as Bas?  If "Serabas" is "Dangerous thing" then "Bas" is just "Thing".  So there ya go, the Qunari think of anyone that doesn't agree with their narrow-minded world view as "things". 

Secondly what the heck are you even talking about?  Mages are men and women.  Denying that or seeking to change the perception of mages as such leads to even more problems then accepting it.  If you're attempting to say that mages are something more than human then you run the risk of mages believing that they, as the superiour beings, should rule and that regular folks should be their servants and/or slaves.

If, on the other hand, you're saying that mages are less than human then you have the reverse problem.  First of all it would give justification the the Ser Alricks of the world to treat them like animals.  Sew their mouths shut and strap a mask on their face like the Qunari.  That would make the mages even more dangerous because (a) they'll do anything to avoid the circle and ( sooner or later if the "Less than human" mages  get the idea that they're just some sort of beast anyway, they may as well act like it and barbeque a local village, town or dell.

So there ya go.  Mages aren't human...bad notion to carry around.

[Lazy Jer]

Nizaris1 wrote...
9/11 is inside job, there is no actual proof Osama really exist, they show you some videos, pictures... anybody can do that, just wear turban and and fake beard with some make up, carry a gun, everybody can look like Osama. Then paid someone to speak Arabic, CIA and spies learn every languages and customs on earth, add up some CGI....there you got your Osama. There is a video on You Tube someone made, a joke video about Iraqi speak English, really look like CNN coverage...

All videos about Osama are poor in quality, thats make it look like real, why...are they have no digital cameras?

Anyway, DA2 story is about War On Terror, maybe the writer is run out of idea to make such or there is hidden agenda about it, Illuminati thingies...

If anyone realize, Anders mage robe do have All Seeing Eye and Pyramid on it...

believe me...DA3 is about New World Order

No.

[dragonflight288]

secretsandlies

If you wish to make a philosophical statement about people, you have to make a maxim or rule that encompasses all. What keeps philosophy in theory and never factual, is that the universal statements and beliefs can always be dismissed by someone who has a different point of view.

By saying all mages aren't real people, you need to make a universal statement on what a person is. You need to establish a rigid set of rules, or characteristics, that all people fall under, and then use those very characteristics to disprove personhood in a mage.

If you cannot do so, then there is no argument that can be made that mages aren't people. If you want to look at the abuse of power based on emotions, you need look no further than the non-mages, Meredith and Loghain. Both wanted to protect the people, both had a radical fear, and both caused FAR more harm than good, which affected entire nations.

[dragonflight288]

Tis true. They ingest lyrium, magic in its rawest form. They use lesser spirit magic spells for fighting mages.

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Templar powers are not divine in nature, it is not a gift from God in anyway, they train it (the Warden learn Templar ability from Alistair without lyrium), they enhanced it by consuming lyrium (as according to Alistair it maight not even do that, lyrium maybe don't give any effect).

why anyone didn't take hint from the ex-templar, Alistair? :-/

Which means, with training, everybody can do magic

I believe this has been retconned and Lyrium is actually necessary now. 

Dragon Age Wiki - Templar (Dragon Age II) - Warrior Specialization says...
Through ingestion of carefully prepared lyrium, templars gain resistance to magic, including the ability to interrupt spells. Though the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, those with the right connections can acquire enough to emulate the abilities of these vigilant warriors.

[dragonflight288]

Alistair does say, in the game, that he never took his vows, and never ingested lyrium, but still could use the abilities. He also says that the Chantry claims that lyrium doesn't give the abilities, merely enhances them, and then proceeds to express doubt on the subject because he, quite frankly, doesn't trust the Chantry. And he was practically raised by them.

[DPSSOC]

Not disputing what Alistair said, but that's the thing about a retcon, they invalidate any contrary information given before. For example in a New Hope Obi Wan says he met Anakin as a young man and he was a great pilot, while in Phantom Menace it's established that Anakin is a 10 year old kid, has never flown a thing in his life, and is only notable as a pod racer in that despite crashing every race he's still alive. Phantom Menace trumps New Hope. Or in return of the Jedi Luke says, "The Force runs strong in my family; my father has it, my mother had it,..." while the prequels firmly establish that Luke's mother was not a Jedi nor is she even demonstrated as an untrained Force Sensitive. Again the new information overrides the old.

So while what Alistair said may have been true in Origins and Awakening, if it is retconned in DA2, it no longer holds. Now if it is a retcon and the writers care I'm sure they'll explain how Alistair could still use Templar abilities despite never having injested lyrium. For example they could reveal that Templar initiates are given small amounts of lyrium in their food or water in order to give them access to and train weak Templar abilities (so he was injesting lyrium he was just unaware), and the Grey Warden ritual (which involves lyrium and was performed shortly after he left the order so he wasn't going through withdrawal), allows those trained to use Templar abilities without regularly injesting lyrium. They then write off giving Sten or Oghren (in Origins anyway) the Templar Spec as a game mechanic and not lore. This allows for Alistair to still hold his beliefs to be true he's just wrong.

If the writer's don't care or simply don't think about it (a possibility happens all the time with retcons in ongoing fiction) then the fans are left to iron the retcon into previous material by themselves.

Again that's if the Templars needing lyrium has in fact been retconned.

[dragonflight288]

Anakin, as an adult, however, pulled off several crazy stunts in Revenge of the Sith, outflying droids with computer precision piloting protocols.

Also, people say that to learn blood magic, you must learn it from a demon. But I think it's been proven that that's not the case. Blood magic can be learned from books (books on Blood magic taken from the library by Irving, and its implied Jowan learned that way, and we can learn blood magic from a tome in Awakening.)

Modifié par dragonflight288, 07 juin 2012 - 05:59 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Anakin, as an adult, however, pulled off several crazy stunts in Revenge of the Sith, outflying droids with computer precision piloting protocols.

Also, people say that to learn blood magic, you must learn it from a demon. But I think it's been proven that that's not the case. Blood magic can be learned from books (books on Blood magic taken from the library by Irving, and its implied Jowan learned that way, and we can learn blood magic from a tome in Awakening.)

Additionally, the Orlesian Mage Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him/her about blood magic. At that time, the Orlesian Warden is still thinking that the Baroness is a Mage -- because there's no evidence at that point to say otherwise -- which seems to state that you can be taught blood magic by other Mages.

That she was, in fact, a Demon has little relevance to the mindset of the Warden Mage at that point.

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

we also can learn Blood Magic from Tevinter Mage slaver in Alienage...

I don't think he actually teaches the blood mage spec. He just sacrifices Elven citizens to increase your constitution by 5 points, IIRC.

At least, that's what the wiki claims. And really, it's pretty pathetic how sacrificing maybe a dozen people only nets you an incredibly miniscule boost in health.

Really kinda kills the incentive to be evil in that part of the game.

+20 would be better.

EDIT: And apparently... Simon Templeman voices Caladrius as well. I did not know that. That's.... actually kinda funny.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 juin 2012 - 03:01 .

[Dave of Canada]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Blood magic can be learned from books (books on Blood magic taken from the library by Irving, and its implied Jowan learned that way,

The books simply could've told Jowan how to manipulate a demon into teaching you blood magic. I mean, we've read tomes of blood magic in Origins which basically just say "contact a demon, make a deal and you've got UNLIMITED POWAH - Emperor Palpatine". 

and we can learn blood magic from a tome in Awakening.)

Game mechanics. We can learn to be a Reaver from a tome as well, though that makes no sense unless it details the ritual to prepare for dragon's blood. The only two story-involved times which we can learn Blood Magic is from the Desire Demon in Awakening or the Baroness in Awakening.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 juin 2012 - 12:18 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

the Baroness in Awakening.

But would the Warden Mage have asked the Baroness to teach him/her blood magic if there wasn't the idea that you can learn it from a Mage, sans any contact with demons?

That seems to point at being able to learn it safely, without contacting demons.

Additionally, Anders says that you can just sort of stumble upon blood magic's powers, without needing a demon. He asks Merrill if this was the method she employed.

We also have conflicting sources on the origins of blood magic. Some say the Old Gods, others say the demons like Xebenkeck and Gaxkang, while others say that the Elves of Arlathan first discovered blood magic and taught it to the Tevinter Imperium.

I'm positive that my belief on blood magic is true: That the only reason why demons are the go-to source is because they're the easiest way to learn it, due to the Chantry having burned any and all books they could find on the subject.

And since the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- evidenced by Torpor's remarks that it's rare to see two forgotten magicks in the Fade -- Demons will undoubtedly know how to teach it.

Dave of Canada wrote...

I mean, we've read tomes of blood magic in Origins which basically just say "contact a demon, make a deal and you've got UNLIMITED POWAH - Emperor Palpatine".

If this is regarding the Scrolls of Banastor, that's specifically dealing with two things I believe: 1) Deliberately allowing a Demon to merge with you while you try and master it and 2) the art of learning how to control minds.

And while #2 is employed through blood magic, it doesn't seem like this is something easily learned without first doing the Demonic Tango in a Mage's own mind.

[Samzo77]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Zombie-Mom.

I was sympathetic toward mages in DA2 despite seeing obvious corruption everywhere I went. But when I found Zombie-Mom and read the letter signed by "O", I knew that even the First Enchanter was no good, the Circle was no good, and a nuking them was the only way to be certain.

Yup, those mages aren't innocent, so it becomes a chicken and the egg scenario. Are Templars overboard because mages are crazy, or are mages crazy because Templars are overboard?

The key is to find the right balance of freedom and safety.

[dragonflight288]

Yup, those mages aren't innocent, so it becomes a chicken and the egg scenario. Are Templars overboard because mages are crazy, or are mages crazy because Templars are overboard?

The key is to find the right balance of freedom and safety.

The divine in Asunder wanted to do that. The templars and seekers wanted nothing to do with it. They wanted to take away what few rights the mages did have away from them. The Divine wasn't even saying freedom, but reform and giving mages a few more rights than they currently had.

The templar leadership, so long as it exists at this moment, will not allow that balance. They wanted the Divine killed because of her beliefs...granted the rogue mages and bad eggs among them weren't doing the mages cause for more rights any favors. Rather the opposite. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 08 juin 2012 - 10:52 .

[Rinshikai10]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Yup, those mages aren't innocent, so it becomes a chicken and the egg scenario. Are Templars overboard because mages are crazy, or are mages crazy because Templars are overboard?

The key is to find the right balance of freedom and safety.

The divine in Asunder wanted to do that. The templars and seekers wanted nothing to do with it. They wanted to take away what few rights the mages did have away from them. The Divine wasn't even saying freedom, but reform and giving mages a few more rights than they currently had.

The templar leadership, so long as it exists at this moment, will not allow that balance. They wanted the Divine killed because of her beliefs...granted the rogue mages and bad eggs among them weren't doing the mages cause for more rights any favors. Rather the opposite. 

you make some good points.

As I have said earlier the problems that we have seen appear to came from poor leadership. Meredith not willing to punish her Templars, Orsino not able to do anything without harming mages in the process, Elthina not taking sides or showing that she is willing to take responsabilty, and Justinia for either being Idealistic or just being untrustworthy. (After reading about the DotS plot, it is shown that not even those close to her trust her.

Even if she says that she wants to help the mages, it feels as if there is more to it. As it is right now Justinia is not what I would call a good leader. From what I saw in Asunder she  appears too Idealistic aunable to see some of the reality of the world. Unwilling to expect some of the responsablity for what happened in the gallows and kirkwall. 

Overall it feels like many of the problems would have been handled better had there been capable leaders.

The system needs to change, and a more neutral group needs too be found. one that works with the common people and the mages. acting as a sheild rather then a sword

But thats just my view

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 09 juin 2012 - 02:19 .

[Rinshikai10]

Its possible, I'm trying to see this as a full scale thing. Not just one Circle.

[dragonflight288]

you make some good points.

As I have said earlier the problems that we have seen appear to came from poor leadership. Meredith not willing to punish her Templars, Orsino not able to do anything without harming mages in the process, Elthina not taking sides or showing that she is willing to take responsabilty, and Justinia for either being Idealistic or just being untrustworthy. (After reading about the DotS plot, it is shown that not even those close to her trust her.

Even if she says that she wants to help the mages, it feels as if there is more to it. As it is right now Justinia is not what I would call a good leader. From what I saw in Asunder she appears too Idealistic aunable to see some of the reality of the world. Unwilling to expect some of the responsablity for what happened in the gallows and kirkwall.

Overall it feels like many of the problems would have been handled better had there been capable leaders.

The system needs to change, and a more neutral group needs too be found. one that works with the common people and the mages. acting as a sheild rather then a sword

But thats just my view

Change for the better rarely comes peacefully. In order to change the templar order's leadership to a more neutral party, you'd have to get rid of the current ones and the current practices...I don't see them giving up their power without a lot of fighting.

[Rinshikai10]

I completely agree with you on that one Dragonflight288, from what we have seen so far I see a long a bloody war in the future. And the Chantry and Templar's will either change for the better or be destroyed from within.

It's harsh but it is likely the outcome, With both Orlias and the Chantry making more enemies then friends through war. Its very possible if they ask for aid, all they will get is silence


"I would not sacrifice my hand to save one finger."

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 09 juin 2012 - 06:26 .