1194 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

KainD wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Any father and any mother would like to have their child with them. It is also valid for real life. Hawke is an example.

That's nice, but selfish. The child has to be taken away by force then. There is no one to blame in this situation but "nature", but it is for the best of all, not only the regular people but the child as well. 

Don't stop there. Gather some armed men and issue an ultimatum. If mage children are not surrendered, the other children will be sold into slavery, the men will be killed, and the women will be raped senseless. The mobs with torches and pitchforks will be lining up to hand over their mage children to the authorities. Better yet, give them bonuses for dead mage children: five sovereigns for a corpse, an extra two if they flay it first.

[KainD]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KainD wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Any father and any mother would like to have their child with them. It is also valid for real life. Hawke is an example.

That's nice, but selfish. The child has to be taken away by force then. There is no one to blame in this situation but "nature", but it is for the best of all, not only the regular people but the child as well. 

Don't stop there. Gather some armed men and issue an ultimatum. If mage children are not surrendered, the other children will be sold into slavery, the men will be killed, and the women will be raped senseless. The mobs with torches and pitchforks will be lining up to hand over their mage children to the authorities. Better yet, give them bonuses for dead mage children: five sovereigns for a corpse, an extra two if they flay it first.

Mages need not die. I want people to live in peace in a community where they will be most equal. I would love the idea of mage land as a mage, and I always play mages, and defended the circle from the templars.

[Lynata]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
You're denying the search for a better answer because you don't think there's a perfect one. Which isn't what we're looking for. We're looking to balance out the drawbacks, not eliminate them completely--we're not ENTIRELY unrealistic, you know.

Balancing the drawbacks is what the Circles are all about. The Circles are the compromise. I understand and would support a desire to remove certain unnecessarily elements about them, but from what I see, most people's argumentation is based on mage freedom, equal treatment and some sort of alibi control like "well they could check in once a week".

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Besides, it's that very oppression that causes more problems than it solves. Half the reason mages have to turn to demons and blood magic is that they feel backed into a corner or resent being oppressed. It's human nature to rebel against perceived injustices, and the Templars as they are only aggravate that fact.

Without doubt this is one of the drawbacks, yet I'd argue that without the Circles the abuse of magic would run even more rampant. People may not be subjectively "forced" into it, they'd simply start turning to it because it'd give them an edge - or simply because they become aggravated in everyday situations. They are as vulnerable as any other human, yet just like with a lot of other humans many of them lack the strength of will and integrity to control their own power and use it only for good.

Call me pessimistic, but this is just how I feel about mankind when looking at history or the news.

esper wrote...
I don't care about the chant of the light. I care about how the organisation: The Chantry understands the chant of light. And sadly the Organisation understands it as we must spread our faith every where to get our (evil) deity back.

The Chantry also understands it as an obligation to help people in need and preach certain virtues. Regardless of the usual drawbacks of organized religion (which you have listed already and I agree with) it would be quite one-sided to try and omit these aspects simply because they don't swing with your argument.

And "evil deity"? Now that just sounds like propaganda.

Also, whilst I generally agree about the role of religion in modern day society, I would say that the Chantry plays an important mediator role for Thedas. Would you rather have a feudal nobility ruling the people without spiritual guidance by ethical values as preached in the Chant of Light? You can't just take one aspect away from the world and expect everything else to continue to work just as before.

Take away the Chantry and you'd probably end up with individual nobles keeping mages as pet-slaves and letting them fight each other in petty feuds and border wars instead of the Chantry keeping them out of such conflicts and only allowing them to fight against Darkspawn or whoever is the target of an Exalted March.

The Andrastean nations are not democratic or enlightened. There is no United Nations. People are too selfish for the communist lifestyle of the Dalish. As such, I do think the Chantry is - even by today's standards and incorporating all the drawbacks - a "necessary evil", as it guides the people towards a life that is still better than the alternative.

esper wrote...
It doesn't matter that chasind and dalish society are different. They work in that aspect.

Actually, it does matter a lot. You cannot bring forth the Chasind, Dalish etc. as examples for how mages can exist alongside normal people and then simply dismiss the fact that we are talking about completely different cultural values.

To draw a real life comparison - just because the native American Indians didn't have a problem with corruption doesn't mean that a "civilized" nation won't know bribery. Quite the opposite, actually. As KainD mentioned, the countries in question sport egocentric societies, so a large number of people living in them - regardless of whether they are mages or not - will be constantly tempted to use and abuse their abilities and influence to get ahead. Which is where all mages come with huge advantages they could potentially exploit, including battle magic and mind control, not to mention that their secret desires will make every single one of them much more susceptible to demonic corruption when they sleep.

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
I remember the same Chant of Light referring magic as the Maker's gift in the same breath as it gives us that charming little verse everyone justifies the present state of the Circle with. Convenient how all those blighted Chantry yes-men forget about that, because if they remembered it a little more often we might not be hearing all this stuff about how the Chantry loves reminding mages how "unwelcome" they are.
It's... just like religious people in the real world, actually. Faith is a fickle, selective mistress.

Quite so. It is truly unfortunate for the mages that Anders kicked off this war just as a Divine who was understandable of their plight got into power. The developing situation will surely make it much more difficult if not impossible for her to implement whatever changes she had in mind - and her words will fall on many more deaf ears, drowned out by magical explosions and the peoples' cry for revenge.

Modifié par Lynata, 26 mars 2012 - 11:41 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

KainD wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KainD wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Any father and any mother would like to have their child with them. It is also valid for real life. Hawke is an example.

That's nice, but selfish. The child has to be taken away by force then. There is no one to blame in this situation but "nature", but it is for the best of all, not only the regular people but the child as well. 

Don't stop there. Gather some armed men and issue an ultimatum. If mage children are not surrendered, the other children will be sold into slavery, the men will be killed, and the women will be raped senseless. The mobs with torches and pitchforks will be lining up to hand over their mage children to the authorities. Better yet, give them bonuses for dead mage children: five sovereigns for a corpse, an extra two if they flay it first.

Mages need not die. I want people to live in peace in a community where they will be most equal. I would love the idea of mage land as a mage, and I always play mages, and defended the circle from the templars.

This entire discussion is so unnecessary, though. If Templars simply gave in to their base urges and brutalized mages openly, murdering children and raping them simply because they know magic, they wouldn't have to deal with the moral implications of controlling them, or how much freedom to give mages. The mages would be dead. There would be no debate about the place of mages in society, or the role of the Circles, or blood magic, because the mages would be dead.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 26 mars 2012 - 11:46 .

[KainD]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

This entire discussion is so unnecessary, though. If Templars simply gave in to their base urges and brutalized mages openly, murdering children and raping them simply because they know magic, they wouldn't have to deal with the moral implications of controlling them, or how much freedom to give mages. The mages would be dead.

Which would lead to more appostates, since now parents would hide their kids like never before instead of giving them to the circle. 

[Lazy Jer]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

This entire discussion is so unnecessary, though. If Templars simply gave in to their base urges and brutalized mages openly, murdering children and raping them simply because they know magic, they wouldn't have to deal with the moral implications of controlling them, or how much freedom to give mages. The mages would be dead. There would be no debate about the place of mages in society, or the role of the Circles, or blood magic, because the mages would be dead.

Not a lot of people manage to make the Qunari seem gentle.  But there it is.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Lynata wrote...

Quite so. It is truly unfortunate for the mages that Anders kicked off this war just as a Divine who was understandable of their plight got into power. The developing situation will surely make it much more difficult if not impossible for her to implement whatever changes she had in mind - and her words will fall on many more deaf ears, drowned out by magical explosions and the peoples' cry for revenge.

Magical explosions and cries for revenge make it sound so one-sided, though. From the epilogue, it sounds like even Templars are rebelling--and in defense of the mages, I might add. That was a subplot in DA2, actually, a movement within Kirkwall's Templar order in which Templars and mages joined forces in the hope of creating a better Circle.

[CrimsonZephyr]

KainD wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

This entire discussion is so unnecessary, though. If Templars simply gave in to their base urges and brutalized mages openly, murdering children and raping them simply because they know magic, they wouldn't have to deal with the moral implications of controlling them, or how much freedom to give mages. The mages would be dead.

Which would lead to more appostates, since now parents would hide their kids like never before instead of giving them to the circle. 

Then start torching entire villages. Burn the countryside.

There would be no apostates. There would be no mages capable of running. They wouldn't be running. They would be dead.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 27 mars 2012 - 12:03 .

[esper]

KainD wrote...

esper wrote...

People are not free if they can't leave Canadian and are forced to go there. You are simply moving the circle out door and giving it a different name which you find is prettier. I don't want rivers, gardens and  little house. I want to live in the country I was born in, with the family I was born into and the people I grew up knowing the first years of my life - I at the very least want to have the choice to do so.

You cannot seperate mages and non mages because mages are born from non-mages, and non-mages are born from mages.Mage and non-mage is not a faction. Just like being born as a  woman or an man is not a faction. Factions you join, you don't join the mages or non-mages you are born as it. And because of that they will just have a  to find a way to live together because they will keep to be born into each others group. If your idea have to sense you will also have to remove non-mage children from their mage-parentes, because they belong to different 'factions' and cannot live together.

It is a seperation by land. Regular people aren't any more free. They can't enter Qunari lands, because that is not theirs, also regulard people won't be allowed into the mage lands, so they won't have that freedom too. No one is ever completely free to wonder where ever they please. I am not free to walk in my neibhors house, it is not mine. There is only a concept of size. Mages can have a decent size to their land. 

Yes non-mage children will have to be removed from mages too. 

Yeah, but you don't tell an Orlais that they have to move to Tevinter. Just as you don't tell a Franceman that from tomorrow he is Canadian. That is the big difference. By four to six years old you are attached to your country. You have a langue, a family and a home and then you are suddenly told that. Whoops you are not France your are Canadian now. That is a prison and neither the Canadian born in France nor the France born in Canadia (who are also force to move rememer) a going to like and accept it. 

It is just not doable and creates future hostily to the point where Candian might just say sorry when the Qunari invade, but we are going to join Tevinter in this battle (they are half candian after all) or Tevinter is actually going to make Candian and offer to become a part of their bigger, better developed country in exhanche for their land (they don't like rivals now, but if those rivals suddenly have money and a land it is a different concept. They might even be able to convince some of the Canadians to sell the France children born in Canada.) or better yet as time goes Candian will grow independent of France and look at it with contempt as we are now clearly divided into them and us or Candians and France to keep it to our weird example and then see that the France are beginning to be a threath and decide strike premetirely against them.

You are not just creating an outdoor circle. You're creating an out door circle, that are defendable, with all the acces to the forbidden magic they decide they want and you are giving them a reason to study that magic, since there are not reason they should trust the chantry to keep out of their circle, and you are still clearly dividing people in them and us, giving them no reason to not declare war on one another once more as soon as someone sneezes wrong. After all the other side is not 'us', and we have no reason to be care about them, we don't even have to try and look good anymore.

[esper]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KainD wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

This entire discussion is so unnecessary, though. If Templars simply gave in to their base urges and brutalized mages openly, murdering children and raping them simply because they know magic, they wouldn't have to deal with the moral implications of controlling them, or how much freedom to give mages. The mages would be dead.

Which would lead to more appostates, since now parents would hide their kids like never before instead of giving them to the circle. 

Then start torching entire villages. Burn the countryside.

There would be no apostates. There would be no mages capable of running. They wouldn't be running. They would be dead.

There would be nonone left. Litteraly. And the templars would be dead because the comman men would revolt against that.

[KainD]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KainD wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

This entire discussion is so unnecessary, though. If Templars simply gave in to their base urges and brutalized mages openly, murdering children and raping them simply because they know magic, they wouldn't have to deal with the moral implications of controlling them, or how much freedom to give mages. The mages would be dead.

Which would lead to more appostates, since now parents would hide their kids like never before instead of giving them to the circle. 

Then start torching entire villages. Burn the countryside.

There would be no apostates. There would be no mages capable of running. They wouldn't be running. They would be dead.

But it doesn't work like that. You kill ALL the mages, and then the next day your newborn is one, and your neibhors newborn is one. You will be torching the contryside for eternity.

[CrimsonZephyr]

esper wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KainD wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

This entire discussion is so unnecessary, though. If Templars simply gave in to their base urges and brutalized mages openly, murdering children and raping them simply because they know magic, they wouldn't have to deal with the moral implications of controlling them, or how much freedom to give mages. The mages would be dead.

Which would lead to more appostates, since now parents would hide their kids like never before instead of giving them to the circle. 

Then start torching entire villages. Burn the countryside.

There would be no apostates. There would be no mages capable of running. They wouldn't be running. They would be dead.

There would be nonone left. Litteraly. And the templars would be dead because the comman men would revolt against that.

Start forcibly inducting people as templars.

[CrimsonZephyr]

KainD wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KainD wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

This entire discussion is so unnecessary, though. If Templars simply gave in to their base urges and brutalized mages openly, murdering children and raping them simply because they know magic, they wouldn't have to deal with the moral implications of controlling them, or how much freedom to give mages. The mages would be dead.

Which would lead to more appostates, since now parents would hide their kids like never before instead of giving them to the circle. 

Then start torching entire villages. Burn the countryside.

There would be no apostates. There would be no mages capable of running. They wouldn't be running. They would be dead.

But it doesn't work like that. You kill ALL the mages, and then the next day your newborn is one, and your neibhors newborn is one. You will be torching the contryside for eternity.

More carnage is always good.

[esper]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

esper wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KainD wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

This entire discussion is so unnecessary, though. If Templars simply gave in to their base urges and brutalized mages openly, murdering children and raping them simply because they know magic, they wouldn't have to deal with the moral implications of controlling them, or how much freedom to give mages. The mages would be dead.

Which would lead to more appostates, since now parents would hide their kids like never before instead of giving them to the circle. 

Then start torching entire villages. Burn the countryside.

There would be no apostates. There would be no mages capable of running. They wouldn't be running. They would be dead.

There would be nonone left. Litteraly. And the templars would be dead because the comman men would revolt against that.

Start forcibly inducting people as templars.

Revolt against the templars. Not just from the common man, but from the kings and nobles who are not going to like loosing their people to an army that is not theirs. The whole Thedas would end up declaring war on the templars. 
Furthermore people would lose their faith that the Templars as the Maker's soldiers which would only strenghten the mages cause (a faith that is proberly allready shaken by them seperating from the Chantry). 

[CrimsonZephyr]

esper wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

esper wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

KainD wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

This entire discussion is so unnecessary, though. If Templars simply gave in to their base urges and brutalized mages openly, murdering children and raping them simply because they know magic, they wouldn't have to deal with the moral implications of controlling them, or how much freedom to give mages. The mages would be dead.

Which would lead to more appostates, since now parents would hide their kids like never before instead of giving them to the circle. 

Then start torching entire villages. Burn the countryside.

There would be no apostates. There would be no mages capable of running. They wouldn't be running. They would be dead.

There would be nonone left. Litteraly. And the templars would be dead because the comman men would revolt against that.

Start forcibly inducting people as templars.

Revolt against the templars. Not just from the common man, but from the kings and nobles who are not going to like loosing their people to an army that is not theirs. The whole Thedas would end up declaring war on the templars. 
Furthermore people would lose their faith that the Templars as the Maker's soldiers which would only strenghten the mages cause (a faith that is proberly allready shaken by them seperating from the Chantry). 

That's why the Templars start raiding the farms. All that pillaging, all those farms lost. It's not like the lords could offer any resistance. If that fails, take over some cities and start having people burned alive until they hand over mages.

[KainD]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

That's why the Templars start raiding the farms. All that pillaging, all those farms lost. It's not like the lords could offer any resistance. If that fails, take over some cities and start having people burned alive until they hand over mages.

What is your goal? How do you keep your Templars together? Who are they?

[KainD]

esper wrote...

Yeah, but you don't tell an Orlais that they have to move to Tevinter. Just as you don't tell a Franceman that from tomorrow he is Canadian. That is the big difference. By four to six years old you are attached to your country. You have a langue, a family and a home and then you are suddenly told that. Whoops you are not France your are Canadian now. That is a prison and neither the Canadian born in France nor the France born in Canadia (who are also force to move rememer) a going to like and accept it. 

It is just not doable and creates future hostily to the point where Candian might just say sorry when the Qunari invade, but we are going to join Tevinter in this battle (they are half candian after all) or Tevinter is actually going to make Candian and offer to become a part of their bigger, better developed country in exhanche for their land (they don't like rivals now, but if those rivals suddenly have money and a land it is a different concept. They might even be able to convince some of the Canadians to sell the France children born in Canada.) or better yet as time goes Candian will grow independent of France and look at it with contempt as we are now clearly divided into them and us or Candians and France to keep it to our weird example and then see that the France are beginning to be a threath and decide strike premetirely against them.

You are not just creating an outdoor circle. You're creating an out door circle, that are defendable, with all the acces to the forbidden magic they decide they want and you are giving them a reason to study that magic, since there are not reason they should trust the chantry to keep out of their circle, and you are still clearly dividing people in them and us, giving them no reason to not declare war on one another once more as soon as someone sneezes wrong. After all the other side is not 'us', and we have no reason to be care about them, we don't even have to try and look good anymore.

If people really are going to think like that, then there is no hope for a good future between mages and non-mages. 

Best I could do for mages, and best I would do then as a mage, is just go and join Tevinter.

Modifié par KainD, 27 mars 2012 - 12:31 .

[Lynata]

 

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Magical explosions and cries for revenge make it sound so one-sided, though. From the epilogue, it sounds like even Templars are rebelling--and in defense of the mages, I might add. That was a subplot in DA2, actually, a movement within Kirkwall's Templar order in which Templars and mages joined forces in the hope of creating a better Circle.

From what it sounds like the templars (at least some of them) split from the Chantry in order to wage war against the mages, though. Hence the term "mage-templar war". They felt too limited by Chantry law to truly pursue their divine duty as they perceive it. The Chantry - both as a spiritual guide as well as the organization in control of the Templar Order - was the one thing keeping the peace, yet both mages and templars (well, at least certain blocks within both sub-groups) simply don't want this peace anymore.

I don't believe a movement like within the Kirkwall garrison exists elsewhere, simply because the situation wasn't as bad elsewhere. The mage-templar alliance died with the murder of Thrask, and was then buried under the rubble of a holy site blown up by a crazed mage who killed an unarmed Grand Cleric in the process.
A senior enchanter attempting to assassinate the Divine herself in Orlais only added more fuel to the fire.

KainD wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
That's why the Templars start raiding the farms. All that pillaging, all those farms lost. It's not like the lords could offer any resistance. If that fails, take over some cities and start having people burned alive until they hand over mages.

What is your goal? How do you keep your Templars together? Who are they?

I'm not sure he is actually interested in a constructive internet debate, to say it nicely.

Modifié par Lynata, 27 mars 2012 - 12:38 .

[Lazy Jer]

Lynata wrote...

I'm not sure he is actually interested in a constructive internet debate, to say it nicely.

Lazy Jer concurs.

[KainD]

I wonder BTW. Tevinter - they have their own circle and templars. I know they control the templars, and that their black divine is a mage. But how will this war affect them? Will tevinter templars take any action? Try to join the war? Or are they completely careless branch?

[Lazy Jer]

KainD wrote...

I wonder BTW. Tevinter - they have their own circle and templars. I know they control the templars, and that their black divine is a mage. But how will this war affect them? Will tevinter templars take any action? Try to join the war? Or are they completely careless branch?

I'd imagine that their current war with the Qunari will keep them from making any significant contributions to the war.  I'm not sure how Tevinter's internal politcs are handled, but I imagine that will play a part as well.

[AnImpossibleGirl]

DeathScepter wrote...

Without a leash, Mages are walking Weapons of Mass Destruction. That is why the Templar Order exist in the first place.

What Mages are: Several reasons that Mages are in towers.
1) Walking Weapons of Mass Destruction
2) Blood Magick is a dangerous art and more potent for abuse due to its mind control.
3) Not all Mages are nice people, Many of them are horrible Psychopaths. Like the **** that killed Hawke's mother and several women.
4) Nice Targets for Demons due to their Weapons of Mass Destruction status.
5) Many Arts are dangerous in and of themselves, and the potential for abuse outweighs the Postives.

Exactly

[KainD]

Poshible wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

Without a leash, Mages are walking Weapons of Mass Destruction. That is why the Templar Order exist in the first place.

What Mages are: Several reasons that Mages are in towers.
1) Walking Weapons of Mass Destruction
2) Blood Magick is a dangerous art and more potent for abuse due to its mind control.
3) Not all Mages are nice people, Many of them are horrible Psychopaths. Like the **** that killed Hawke's mother and several women.
4) Nice Targets for Demons due to their Weapons of Mass Destruction status.
5) Many Arts are dangerous in and of themselves, and the potential for abuse outweighs the Postives.

Exactly

Still not a good enough reason to deny someone their freedom. Not until any ill has been done.

[Always Alice]

Take away the oppressive, evil system and you take away 98% of mages' reasons to dabble in dangerous, forbidden magic.  And the other 2% can be dealt with.

Are you getting these statistics from somewhere, or all they just arbitrary numbers?

esper wrote...
I don't care about the chant of the light. I care about how the organisation: The Chantry understands the chant of light. And sadly the Organisation understands it as we must spread our faith every where to get our (evil) deity back.

When you say "the Chantry," what are you referring to, exactly? You do realize that followers of a religion aren't a simple hivemind; look at the differences between Leliana and Sebastian's interpretations, for example. Heck, look at real life. Are you referring to the leaders? As stated numerous times in this thread, the Divine is willing to/has worked with mages (even defying the templars to do so!) and talks about how they should be cherished instead of feared. Are you referring to the templars? After Asunder, it seems like most of them have left the Chantry to follow Lambert and become more extremist.

And what on earth makes you say that the Maker is evil? Just because you don't like the Chantry, you have to villify their god? The Maker seems to me to be more tempermental than evil.

They also seems to think that  our belief is superior

So basically like every other religion in Thedas.

we have a divine right to overrule the country's secular authorities

Examples, please.

While I don't want to bring real life religion into it think of the bible: It says a lot of good, but some people still takes that good and twist into their own gain.

Yup, that's human nature. That doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with the religion itself.

 If they church still did that today then the church as an organisation would be evil

Evil according to whose standards? They might believe their interpretation to be correct.

and the good thing the bible says is irrelevant because the leading understanding of the bible says the it is the worst and baddest understandings of the book which is the truth. 

The good never becomes irrelevant because someone chooses to ignore it. It's not like it the words vanish once the Church (or Chantry, in this case) decides to preach a message in a certain way. People have brains. They can read the passage, take the context into consideration and draw their own conclusions, which may or may not coincide with that of the leading authority's.

[Always Alice]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I remember the same Chant of Light referring magic as the Maker's gift in the same breath as it gives us that charming little verse everyone justifies the present state of the Circle with. Convenient how all those blighted Chantry yes-men forget about that, because if they remembered it a little more often we might not be hearing all this stuff about how the Chantry loves reminding mages how "unwelcome" they are.

It's... just like religious people in the real world, actually. Faith is a fickle, selective mistress.

People see what they want to see. It's hardly something that's limited to religion, in any case.

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

The major danger with mages is that they may become abominations, right? So why not give mages who've already PASSED their Harrowing more freedom? The choice to come and go from the tower, live and work amongst society in roles that only mages can fulfill? That by itself would give mages-in-training something to look forward to apart from a lifetime locked away in a tower with a bunch of stuffy old people who've spent their lives locked away in a tower.

Make the Circle more like a training academy than a containment measure. Keep the phylacteries so that mages who do go rogue can be tracked, but lose the "prison" aspect. Also, give the kids' parents some goddamn visitation rights. It'll make parents less reluctant to surrender their children to the Circle, especially if said Circle is more of a boarding school than a lifelong sentence of confinement.

I generally agree with this. The problem would be the culture shock the mages would experience when the leave the tower. I'm alsowondering if there could be any possible alternative to the Harrowing, since there obviously are plenty of harrowed mages who give into temptation. I suppose it does help weed out the weaklings, but...meh. I just hate the idea of throwing kids to demons.

Also, fire all the Templars that fail at being decent human beings. You'll have to re-staff almost the whole of the order in Kirkwall, sure, but less mages feeling oppressed translates quite cleanly into "less blood mages and abominations." If mages feel that the Templars are their allies, they won't be so quick to defy them.

And how would you be able to tell if a new recruit is a decent human being or not? How someone acts can be a lot different than how they are. There are plenty of people who scowl a lot but have hearts of gold, and on the flip side, you have people who seem utterly charming but are really sadistic loons.