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[Always Alice]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Magical explosions and cries for revenge make it sound so one-sided, though. From the epilogue, it sounds like even Templars are rebelling--and in defense of the mages, I might add. That was a subplot in DA2, actually, a movement within Kirkwall's Templar order in which Templars and mages joined forces in the hope of creating a better Circle.

That's not what the epilogue was referring to. In Asunder, the templars seperated from the Chantry because they wanted to go after the mages without any Chantry red tape.

[KainD]

The sad truth is - non-mage people who think mages should not be completely free are selfish. They care for their safety so much that they are willing to deny others their freedom, and in doing so do not really stand far from mages that would abuse their power for their own gain as well.

[dragonflight288]

To draw a real life comparison - just because the native American Indians didn't have a problem with corruption doesn't mean that a "civilized" nation won't know bribery. Quite the opposite, actually. As KainD mentioned, the countries in question sport egocentric societies, so a large number of people living in them - regardless of whether they are mages or not - will be constantly tempted to use and abuse their abilities and influence to get ahead. Which is where all mages come with huge advantages they could potentially exploit, including battle magic and mind control, not to mention that their secret desires will make every single one of them much more susceptible to demonic corruption when they sleep.

....Mages are not at risk in their sleep. Somniari most certainly are, and almost all of them die off because of the fact. Gaider has outright said that the only time a mage is at risk of possession is when they are face to face with a demon, and make a deal. They may not always know a bargain has been struck at times, but that is the only way a normal mage can become an abomination.

Granted, DA2 threw that bit of lore out the window, or seemed to (those mages may have already been possessed and we simply didn't know it.) But the lore is quite clear. If mages were at risk in their sleep, so too would be the average non-dwarf. All races save dwarfs go to the fade in their sleep. The only thing separating mages and non-mages is that mages can enter aware.

[katiebour]

[quote]katiebour wrote...
Take away the oppressive, evil system and you take away 98% of mages' reasons to dabble in dangerous, forbidden magic.  And the other 2% can be dealt with.[/quote]

[quote] 
Lynata wrote... 

We could argue about the numbers (especially looking at Tevinter), but in the end: How exactly would you deal with the "2"% if you'd lack the means to control them?[/quote]

I am not suggesting we do away with Templars entirely.  I am suggesting we do away with the current Circle system, and with Templars as mage-keepers.  (Non-lyrium-addicted)Templars as a police force to assist other mages in bringing down evildoers I support.


[quote]katiebour wrote...
As for possession, Lady Harimann in DA2 was not a mage.  But she was power-hungry and evil, and thought she could control the demon (because she WASN'T a mage) and dealt with it.  As a result her entire family (all non-mages) became possessed.[/quote]

[quote]Are you sure she wasn't a mage? I've not played this DLC, so all I can go by is her wiki page.
Not that it would have made any difference for the outcome, see the Codex entry on the Right of Annulment. Mages are quite capable of losing control over the demons they summon.[/quote]  

She was not a mage.  Her daughter confirms this.

[quote]I thought phylacteries were created by other Circle mages or the Tranquil, actually. Then again, I haven't yet finished the book completely, so maybe there's still a revelation awaiting me. [/quote]

I don't remember everything Asunder says about phylacteries, but it does confirm that they are blood magic, and that Templars utilize that magic when they link in with the vial to find the mage.  As for who makes them, I don't know.  Perhaps it's Loyalist mages, or Templars, or Tranquil.  I might have to go read Asunder again

[quote]katiebour wrote...
This also explains why Alistair, who's never taken lyrium, still has the magical abilities that the Templars train.[/quote]
[quote]This is either wrong or it's been retconned. As per David Gaider, no lyrium = no templar abilities.

"Even if Templar magic was recognized as spellcasting, it's not innate to the Templars, if they just stopped taking lyrium eventually they would lose the ability. Although as Alistair proves, they can use the ability for a long time afterwards."
-- [source][/quote]

If you ask Alistair in DA:O he confirms that he was conscripted by the Wardens prior to taking his vows, and thus never became an actual Templar.  He also directly states that Templars only receive lyrium once they've taken their vows, and that he, personally, never took any.  And yet he starts with the Templar specialization and has access to all of their skills, and makes numerous mentions to that fact.  Given the date of this interview I suspect that this is a retcon, and that Al must have taken lyrium at some point if lyrium is the only reason Templars have magic abilities.  Either that or he's a mage

[quote]katiebour wrote...
This would easily explain why the Templars made such an easy target for Tarohne and her blood mages- they were already halfway to being mages themselves, by virtue of their training.[/quote]

[quote]I don't think they were "easy targets". They were trapped in a magical forcefield and bombarded with mind-eroding spells; this would turn anyone sooner or later. In fact, it seems as if templars actually have an above-average resistance against this compared to the common people ... which makes sense, when you consider that they are trained to resist whatever a mage can throw at them. As shown in both games, this is no perfect safety, but it's better than nothing.

Also, if templars would work similar to mages in the Fade, they'd be "active" dreamers as well. As exemplified by Evangeline's utter cluelessness about that plane, and as explained in the DARPG on mages being the only ones active in the Fade, this is not the case.

On a funny sidenote, the latter was said to trigger a bit of an awkward moment for the Chantry as
it teaches that the souls of deceased humans travel through the Fade to go to the Maker - and then the
mages were like "uh, actually, we didn't see no souls". 
[/quote] 

Looking at the Templar specializations + abilities from DA:O and DA2, I retract my statement and concur with you that Templars have an above-average resistance to magic (the DA2 ability Annulment implies that this is strictly due to the lyrium in their blood.)  Also interesting is Hawke's scene with Idunna- a mage!Hawke can free himself, implying that mages themselves are resistant to hostile magic.  (Your mage companions can also rescue you.)  

Given that the poor Templar recruits were helpless before Idunna's magic, I'd say a better force against mages would, in fact, be other mages!  And again, I would support local mage outposts, with Templar-supplemented police forces to serve and protect, with the mages themselves active participants in policing their own.

[quote]katiebour wrote...
The part that really, really, really pisses me off is that Tranquility is then without reason.  There is no reason to Tranquil a mage, because it renders him no safer than any other person.[/quote]

[quote]Ah, but the big difference is that mages face a risk of possession every single night they go to sleep, whereas ... well, how often do you think is the average Thedan commoner encountering not only an actual demon who managed to break through the Veil himself, but a demon who also retains the cleverness and the time to try and force himself into a sentient being in the real world?

This is the major difference. You have a single case where Tranquility didn't help to prevent possession. A single case in several centuries. And this case only came about due to the combination of several external factors, such as the Veil's weakness on-site.
[/quote] 

I take your point, and reading the wiki about the Tranquil sums up the events in Asunder by clarifying that Tranquil do not make tasty targets for demons, since they are emotionless and nearly lifeless- termed "furniture" by their codex entry:

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Tranquil 
http://dragonage.wik...y:_The_Tranquil 

I still think that the Rite of Tranquility is horrific, and Pharamond himself, looking back, expresses that sheer horror, even though as a Tranquil he was content with the state.  But I guess a Tranquil is incapable of feeling horror even at his own circumstance.

But to kill the very soul and identity of a person, to render them unfeeling living furniture whose only function is to make money for the very people who ripped away their emotions and magic- the Circle claims that this was the best solution; my opinion is that once they were satisfied with Tranquility they simply stopped looking for alternatives.  It is to the newest Divine's credit that she is actively researching the question.

And the active abuse of the Rite, as seen in Kirkwall, makes it far too dangerous to be allowed.  Power corrupts, and it corrupts the weak and wicked in the Templar Order as surely as great magic corrupts the weak and wicked mages in Tevinter.  Is allowing truly evil people like Alrik free reign to Tranquil harrowed mages left and right a "neccessary evil?"  Is the Harrowing itself (feeding baby mages to demons and standing by to wait and see if they succumb) a useful tool, if we cannot even trust Harrowed mages with their own freedom?

If we must keep the Harrowing as a tool to weed out the weak (and I'm not convinced that it is neccessary or useful either) then we must acknowledge that a Harrowed mage has passed his test, has been deemed sufficiently strong to resist possession and from that point on should be allowed to go where and do what he wishes.

Tranquility is evil.  Let every mage take the Harrowing when he is ready for his freedom, when he has shored up his arcane knowledge and his courage.  Tell the apprentices what to expect beforehand.  Keep those who will not take the Harrowing under supervision, if you must, but let the Harrowed ones free.  They have proven their mettle and earned it.

[quote]katiebour wrote...
Cullen says what he says because he doesn't understand the exact mechanics of possession, and is simply parroting the comforting lies that the Templars are fed by their Order.  Probably helps them sleep better at night imagining that they're actually doing something to protect against demons.[/quote]

[quote]Maybe. But maybe his insights are still closer to the truth than our speculations, many of whom are just as fueled by personal bias like the desire for mage freedom. All I know is that he is a veteran templar who has seen quite a bit.
[/quote]

Cullen has all but lost his mind, as revealed by his epilogue from Origins:


[quote]Cullen's fate may be revealed if the Warden was a mage or if they sided with him during the outbreak of abominations in the Circle Tower. If the Warden sided with Cullen, or was a mage who did not grant the Circle Tower autonomy, then Cullen will eventually become Knight-Commander of the Circle Tower after Greagoir retires, watching over the magi with a much more strict and cruel regime than even Greagoir had. If the Warden was a mage and did not side with Cullen, and gives the tower autonomy, the templar endures festering mental scars from his experience in the tower. This leads to an eventual mental breakdown during which he kills a number of mage apprentices before fleeing. [/quote]

I will never trust him or anything he says- the whole "Mages are not people like you and me" and "Kill them all!" have me convinced as to his character.  I don't like that aspect of Fenris for the same reason- both are mentally scarred, unstable, irrational mage-haters.  They let experiences with bad mages color everything in their life, even when faced with good mages.  DA2 Cullen seems to have mellowed a bit, but I'm still suspicious.

Modifié par katiebour, 27 mars 2012 - 03:26 .

[Always Alice]

....Mages are not at risk in their sleep. Somniari most certainly are, and almost all of them die off because of the fact. Gaider has outright said that the only time a mage is at risk of possession is when they are face to face with a demon, and make a deal.

Can't they meet demons in their sleep? Isn't that what the Harrowing is, basically? The mage is in an unconscious state where he's free to interact with all the denizens of the Fade.

katiebour wrote...

And the active abuse of the Rite, as seen in Kirkwall, makes it far too dangerous to be allowed.  Power corrupts, and it corrupts the weak and wicked in the Templar Order as surely as great magic corrupts the weak and wicked mages in Tevinter.  

Yes, exactly.

If we must keep the Harrowing as a tool to weed out the weak (and I'm not convinced that it is neccessary or useful either) then we must acknowledge that a Harrowed mage has passed his test, has been deemed sufficiently strong to resist possession and from that point on should be allowed to go where and do what he wishes.

I'm not fully convinced of the Harrowing's usefulness, either. Just because someone is strong enough to resist doesn't mean he always going to if there's something he wants.

Cullen has all but lost his mind, as revealed by his epilogue from Origins

I wouldn't take anything the epilogue slides say seriously. I'm pretty sure Gaider confirmed the slides to be rumors, hence why it says in my game thatAnders stayed with the Wardens for many years and considered them his family, even when that clearly didn't happen. Or that he went off on a ship with Isabela somewhere (which I believe he confirms is a rumor he made up in one of the DLC's, but I never got that epilogue slide so idk)

 I don't like that aspect of Fenris for the same reason- both are mentally scarred, unstable, irrational mage-haters.  They let experiences with bad mages color everything in their life, even when faced with good mages. 

Kind of like how Anders is a mentally scarred,unstable, irrational templar-hater who lets bad experiences with templars color his life, even when faced with good templars

Modifié par Always Alice, 27 mars 2012 - 03:52 .

[KainD]

Hanz54321 wrote...

KainD - you are a very kind soul and an idealist. That is nice.

CrimsonZephyr is using sarcasm and "leaps" in the evolution of ideas to show you where many of your ideas go, though. He's quite right.

As soon as you start dreaming of a mage utopia, then begins the difficulties of how to make it happen. Pretty soon you're right back to Templars busting down doors, dragging babies off, and killing or injuring innocents who just want their child.

And your ideas as to who pays for mages to be transferred to "Mage Utopia" . . . again very idealistic but not grounded in reality. NOBODY is happy to pay for services that do not directly benefit them. Nobody wants to pay a "Mage Relocation Tax" until a mage is born in their backyard. And even then, if it's cheaper to just stick them in a tower . . . then we are right back to a Circle of Magi.

I like you - I used to be like you - but Dragon Age is not Hello Kitty Age - it's based on a lot of imperfect and ugly things that go on in the real world.

And then I just get pissed. 

If I was a mage my thought pattern would go like this:
1) Let's live happily together! No? You hate me? I am too dangerous?
2) Ok, help me get away from you then, I will live somewhere far! No? You don't want to help with that? You won't let me go?
3) So you would rather I rot in a tower, and love you, and try to do good, while temlars watch my every move and hurt me? 
4) Well then screw you! Fireball to your face! I am going to learn blood magic and head for Tevinter, where I will live selfishly ( like selfish people, that would put me in a tower ) maximizing my pleasure of existance or die trying.

That is exactly what I would do if I lived in DA, and wouldn't even feel a little bit of shame for my actions. 

[Lynata]

 

dragonflight288 wrote...
....Mages are not at risk in their sleep.

Where do you think demonic possession happens? See page 3, I've quoted a rather detailed passage on the subject. Just like any other normal human, mages enter the Fade when they sleep. The difference being that they actively attract demons.

As cited, demons cannot interact with "the average non-dwarf". Only mages get to actively "participate" in the Fade instead of being limited to a passive presence, the downside being that this activity is like a beacon to malevolent spirits. 

--

katiebour wrote... 
I am not suggesting we do away with Templars entirely.  I am suggesting we do away with the current Circle system, and with Templars as mage-keepers.  (Non-lyrium-addicted)Templars as a police force to assist other mages in bringing down evildoers I support.

So basically Tevinter. Because that's exactly what you just described.

Well, except that "evildoers" depends on the backing or opposition a mage has in the ruling Magister class.

katiebour wrote...
She was not a mage.  Her daughter confirms this.

Well, then either the daughter or the game is lying, because after some research on the interwebs I can clearly see that the Lady wears a mage's staff and happily casts blood magic in her boss fight...

katiebour wrote... 
And again, I would support local mage outposts, with Templar-supplemented police forces to serve and protect, with the mages themselves active participants in policing their own.

Aside from the "local mage outposts" bit where you make it sound it'd be the mages who should be in command of templar-auxiliaries, this actually sounds a lot like how the Circles should operate. As we have seen in both Ferelden and Kirkwall, the reality depends very much on what kind of relationship the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander share.

"In ages past the use of magic was outlawed outside the Tevinter Imperium, and those who practiced it were persecuted and hunted. This only got worse with the rise of the Chantry, as the new religion spoke out against magic as corrupt and evil. Magic, of course, was also quite useful, particularly when fighting creatures like darkspawn. This led to a compromise in which mages could legally practice magic - but only under the watchful eye of the Chantry. Blood magic, the practice of the dreaded maleficar, was also strictly forbidden.

During the second Blight, the mages proved their worth and helped save humanity. This allowed them to gain a measure of autonomy, and thus was born the first Circle of Magi. While there are still Chantry Templars stationed in every Circle tower, it is the mages who police those with magical talent and bring them to their towers for training and supervision, and teach them to defend themselves against demonic possession. Practicing magic outside a Circle is a capital offense."

^ ... the above is actually an interesting bit where you have mages hunting other mages because of their spellcasting ability. I suppose this was done because the Magisters of old did not want to have competition. It lends further strength to David Gaider's comment on how even in modern day Tevinter it's not the Chantry who is oppressing the mages, but simply mages oppressing other mages.

katiebour wrote...
I still think that the Rite of Tranquility is horrific, and Pharamond himself, looking back, expresses that sheer horror, even though as a Tranquil he was content with the state.  But I guess a Tranquil is incapable of feeling horror even at his own circumstance.

Aye, I suppose this coincides with what we heard of Anders' friend - whilst they may not be able to feel it in a state of Tranquility, the memories (if he ever gets to feel again) would hurt. Not only is it a drastically invasive procedure on one's personality; in retrospect an ex-Tranquil might also have to live with choices he might not have made otherwise.

A little like mind control ... just not really mind control, but an alteration. Free will, yet "made compliant". Like lobotomy. In fact, I'm pretty sure the writers at BioWare were looking at exactly this as an inspiration.

katiebour wrote...
And the active abuse of the Rite, as seen in Kirkwall, makes it far too dangerous to be allowed.  Power corrupts, and it corrupts the weak and wicked in the Templar Order as surely as great magic corrupts the weak and wicked mages in Tevinter.  Is allowing truly evil people like Alrik free reign to Tranquil harrowed mages left and right a "neccessary evil?"  Is the Harrowing itself (feeding baby mages to demons and standing by to wait and see if they succumb) a useful tool, if we cannot even trust Harrowed mages with their own freedom?

Well, I would argue that it still prevents more harm than it causes, even including the occasional abuse - which I presume would or at least should be investigated. Once again I'll point out that Kirkwall was an exception to the rule in more than one aspect; this often gets forgotten in the usual mage vs templar debate.

It is also worth mentioning that the Harrowing, when conducted upon apprentice mages who have otherwise not provided any grounds for suspicion, is ordered at the command of a tower's enchanters, depending on when they deem him or her ready for the trial.

"Baby mages" just sounds like negative PR again tho. We're not talking about children here.

katiebour wrote...

Tell the apprentices what to expect beforehand.

What would you tell them, though? Aside from this defeating the purpose of the Harrowing (since the usual encounter with a demon does not have other people holding the young mage's hand and telling him what to do - he has to do this on his own, just like he'd do were this not a test), I think each demon is a little different and would try other tricks on his victim.

katiebour wrote...
Cullen has all but lost his mind, as revealed by his epilogue from Origins [...] DA2 Cullen seems to have mellowed a bit, but I'm still suspicious.

He actively speaks out against anti-mage measures deemed to hard and is willing to argue with Meredith about it, what more would you need?

"I think Cullen is a good man who recognizes that there are dangerous in magic, dangers that have to be dealt with, but he doesn't lack for compassion and doesn't try to say "Well, let's take the hard approach and kill everybody and let the Maker sort them out." At the end of DA2 he's the person who sort of tries to put on the brakes, the voice of sanity if you will. I think that's important to represent, so in that respect I like the idea of Cullen reappearing, I like that element of his character, so it's definitely a possibility."
-- David Gaider

In the Witch Hunt DLC, it is said that Cullen was ordered to go to the Greenfell chantry for some peaceful rehabilitation. Seems like the Templars actually have some sort of post-crisis trauma program to help its members deal with stuff like that. And it seems to have worked.
 

Modifié par Lynata, 27 mars 2012 - 05:32 .

[Urzon]

I will be sad if they did retcon the templar abilities in DA2. In DAO from what Alistair said, I always assumed that the templar abilities were a kind of faith based magic/power of will. It was sheer will power (increased through their belief in the Maker, and that they were doing the "right" thing) that gave them the powers to resist magics, and the powers to cancel them as well. Them injested the lyrium only increased the latent magic in their blood (which i assume everyone has) to give more power towards their abilities.

Even without that the lyrium, they were still able to sure they the abilities through willpower alone.

Modifié par Urzon, 27 mars 2012 - 06:13 .

[KainD]

I don't understand the principle of magic resistance at all, even back from D&D. I understand the concept of dead magic zones, with no concection to the fade maybe or something. But if a fireball is conjured there is no way to resist it, it's just fire, it's no different than a barrel with oil set on fire and hurled at you, at that point you can only resist fire. How one resists magic in general is beyond me. 

Modifié par KainD, 27 mars 2012 - 06:16 .

[katiebour]

Always Alice wrote...
Kind of like how Anders is a mentally scarred,unstable, irrational templar-hater who lets bad experiences with templars color his life, even when faced with good templars

/wink

Anders says of Thrask:  "He's a good man, I suppose.  For a Templar."

Of Fenris:

Fen:  He kept me on a leash like a pet, to mock Qunari custom.
Anders:  (sympathetically) Ouch.

After the encounter with Samson on the Coast, when he hears about mages working with templars, he makes a comment of incredulous and pleased surprise- I can't remember the exact wording but it's along the lines of "Mages and templars working together?  I must be dreaming."

He makes little comments here and there that demonstrate he's generally willing to give people a chance- it's only after Fen starts referring to him exclusively as "Mage" and "Abomination" that their dislike escalates.  Anders gives props to the (very few) decent Templars we come across in-game.  Fenris gives props to Hawke and Bethany but refuses to give Anders, Merrill, or any other mage any kind of praise or acknowledgement.

And considering the number of times Anders patches him up in my playthoughs, I can't help but dislike the ungrateful elf a bit  (I do love Fen, but he's one of the characters I'm most conflicted about.)

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

To draw a real life comparison - just because the native American Indians didn't have a problem with corruption doesn't mean that a "civilized" nation won't know bribery. Quite the opposite, actually. As KainD mentioned, the countries in question sport egocentric societies, so a large number of people living in them - regardless of whether they are mages or not - will be constantly tempted to use and abuse their abilities and influence to get ahead. Which is where all mages come with huge advantages they could potentially exploit, including battle magic and mind control, not to mention that their secret desires will make every single one of them much more susceptible to demonic corruption when they sleep.

....Mages are not at risk in their sleep. Somniari most certainly are, and almost all of them die off because of the fact. Gaider has outright said that the only time a mage is at risk of possession is when they are face to face with a demon, and make a deal. They may not always know a bargain has been struck at times, but that is the only way a normal mage can become an abomination.

Granted, DA2 threw that bit of lore out the window, or seemed to (those mages may have already been possessed and we simply didn't know it.) But the lore is quite clear. If mages were at risk in their sleep, so too would be the average non-dwarf. All races save dwarfs go to the fade in their sleep. The only thing separating mages and non-mages is that mages can enter aware.

Mages ARE at risk when they sleep. They are like beacons which attract demons whenever they are in the Fade. Also whenever they cast a spell, and have to draw upon the Fade, they are at risk aswell. DA2 didn't change any lore...

[esper]

KainD wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

KainD - you are a very kind soul and an idealist. That is nice.

CrimsonZephyr is using sarcasm and "leaps" in the evolution of ideas to show you where many of your ideas go, though. He's quite right.

As soon as you start dreaming of a mage utopia, then begins the difficulties of how to make it happen. Pretty soon you're right back to Templars busting down doors, dragging babies off, and killing or injuring innocents who just want their child.

And your ideas as to who pays for mages to be transferred to "Mage Utopia" . . . again very idealistic but not grounded in reality. NOBODY is happy to pay for services that do not directly benefit them. Nobody wants to pay a "Mage Relocation Tax" until a mage is born in their backyard. And even then, if it's cheaper to just stick them in a tower . . . then we are right back to a Circle of Magi.

I like you - I used to be like you - but Dragon Age is not Hello Kitty Age - it's based on a lot of imperfect and ugly things that go on in the real world.

And then I just get pissed. 

If I was a mage my thought pattern would go like this:
1) Let's live happily together! No? You hate me? I am too dangerous?
2) Ok, help me get away from you then, I will live somewhere far! No? You don't want to help with that? You won't let me go?
3) So you would rather I rot in a tower, and love you, and try to do good, while temlars watch my every move and hurt me? 
4) Well then screw you! Fireball to your face! I am going to learn blood magic and head for Tevinter, where I will live selfishly ( like selfish people, that would put me in a tower ) maximizing my pleasure of existance or die trying.

That is exactly what I would do if I lived in DA, and wouldn't even feel a little bit of shame for my actions. 

Which is nice, but a hughe number of your fellow mages do skip think two they skip directly to four. Making your idea irrellevant since you would not get everyone with you which your whole idea depend on. My thought patterne would be like this:
1. Let's live together it doesn't have to be happy. No?
2. But look I can help your with your sick mother for free. You still hate me?
3. Fine then I'll just ignore you and hang out with my familiy and the people who do like me. You can hate me all I want I don't care.
4. You are trying to kill me? Fireball to your face.

[DKJaigen]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

Police officers, politicians, clerics, corporate managers - everyone with some sort of power is susceptible to the lure of corruption, and it's no different with the mages in Dragon Age. Mages only have it extra hard because (1) they are vulnerable to demonic possession even if they are genuinely good people and (2) their power is such that it and by extension they are seen as far more dangerous than ordinary men.
Well, that and this bit of history about mages almost destroying the world.

I consider corrupt managers , politicans and police officers far more dangerous then abominations. We have our own abominations in our society: namely people that are so depressed that they suffer an acute case of psychosis. but i have to lock up every person that is depressed i have to lock up a third population.

[quote]
Evolution of knowledge. When an idea becomes feasible, it will be pursued. Evidently, this has yet to be the case in Thedas. Where would you even start - do you have an idea, given that you are so sure the possibility even exists?[/quote]

thats not how research works.

[quote]
At the same time you are neglecting the risk this sort of research comes with. Anyone trying to work on this subject is virtually gambling with their body and soul - it'd be like medical science which is only possible when the researchers work in a contaminated lab! Will they find the cure in time? Will anyone even volunteer for this job?[quote]

You cannot make these claims as we dont know what is involved in such research.

[quote]
So why do you think it would be different with freed Circle mages? This is the part in your argument I do not understand, and you seem somewhat elusive to explain it. From all it sounds like, it just comes off like a naive wish. "Wouldn't it be nice if ..." - Yes, it would, just like immortality, equality and a total absence of prejudice.[/quote]

Why do you think it would not be different? If i doubt everything i do i would not get any further with my life. Simply do and see what life throws at you. But staying stuck 1 place because something bad may happen is cowardly.

[quote]
*nods* The Ferelden Circle also secretly supplied the resistance fighters with enchanted items during the Orlesian occupation.
[/quote]

Without context this is useless. Why where they supplying items? Also Wynne was perfectly mercenary like when  they discussed the Orlais civil war. Evangaline herself said that the mages will not partake in that war unless the rewarded.

[quote]
Well, then either the daughter or the game is lying, because after some
research on the interwebs I can clearly see that the Lady wears a mage's
staff and happily casts blood magic in her boss fight...[/quote]

Ignorance is not a strenght. And thats why templars are so damn ineffective. They have no damn clue how magic works.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 27 mars 2012 - 07:34 .

[katiebour]

Lynata wrote...

So basically Tevinter. Because that's exactly what you just described.
Well, except that "evildoers" depends on the backing or opposition a mage has in the ruling Magister class.

Yep, I suppose so, with the difference being that mages are taught, along with the rest of the populace, that being moral > being expedient.  Teach a basic respect for the rights of others and you avoid the pitfalls of Tevinter.

Well, then either the daughter or the game is lying, because after some research on the interwebs I can clearly see that the Lady wears a mage's staff and happily casts blood magic in her boss fight...

Her daughter Flora says, and I paraphrase, "Magic's never been in our line.  Perhaps that's where mother erred- she thought that because she wasn't a mage, she could control it."  I can load a save and find the exact quote if you like.

katiebour wrote... 
And again, I would support local mage outposts, with Templar-supplemented police forces to serve and protect, with the mages themselves active participants in policing their own.

Aside from the "local mage outposts" bit where you make it sound it'd be the mages who should be in command of templar-auxiliaries, this actually sounds a lot like how the Circles should operate. As we have seen in both Ferelden and Kirkwall, the reality depends very much on what kind of relationship the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander share.

I do think mages should be in command of templar auxilliaries, or at least not subject in any way to their control.  It's a mage problem- let the mages deal with it.  If the templars want to volunteer to help, fine.  It's a matter of jurisdiction, and in mage problems I think mages should be the first responders, and the first to make restitution to the victims as appropriate.

It lends further strength to David Gaider's comment on how even in modern day Tevinter it's not the Chantry who is oppressing the mages, but simply mages oppressing other mages.

Indeed, the only reason the Circles continue is because of Irving and mages like him (generally the Loyalists) who perpetuate the system.  But if every Loyalist becomes an Isolationist or Libertarian, then we have the same situation as post-DA2- outright war between mages and their Templar captors.  When the mages stop cooperating in their own imprisonment, the Templar Order cracks down and the Circle is annulled.

"Baby mages" just sounds like negative PR again tho. We're not talking about children here.

Sorry, I'm over thirty.  Anyone under twenty is pretty much young enough at this point to be my child, and is therefore a "baby" to me.  

Putting teenagers through the Harrowing seems pretty barbaric to me.  I look back and think of where I was at, in terms of emotional maturity, at 17-22 ish, and I cringe at the thought of people facing a life-or-death evaluation of their willpower and mental stability at that time.  Add in the fact that most of them are adult children who've never been allowed to live as adults (Emile de Launcet is a prime example) and I can hardly fault them for being the equivalent of overgrown children.

Give a mage responsibilities.  Give him the right to a family, a home, and watch him mature.  Watch him grow into an adult who weighs the consequences of his actions not only by the cost to himself but by the cost to those he loves.  Let him love.  Do that and you will have a mage who would rather die than bargain with a demon and endanger the lives of his friends, family, children.

He actively speaks out against anti-mage measures deemed to hard and is willing to argue with Meredith about it, what more would you need?

"I think Cullen is a good man who recognizes that there are dangerous in magic, dangers that have to be dealt with, but he doesn't lack for compassion and doesn't try to say "Well, let's take the hard approach and kill everybody and let the Maker sort them out." At the end of DA2 he's the person who sort of tries to put on the brakes, the voice of sanity if you will. I think that's important to represent, so in that respect I like the idea of Cullen reappearing, I like that element of his character, so it's definitely a possibility."
-- David Gaider 

Oh, I dunno, an acknowledgement of mage rights as human beings (or elves.)  But again, he flat-out says "Mages are not people like you and me."  As long as that attitude persists I don't trust him.  And Gaider's quote makes me laugh because I just replayed the Tower last night, and that's EXACTLY what Cullen said (my screenie below):  

 

"Good...Kill Uldred.  Kill them all for what they've done."

He falls back on calling Wynne "mage" and is generally disrespectful.  He tries to convince the Warden to wipe the Tower of every mage (including the children, Petra, Irving, Wynne) because they might be possessed.  If you disagree with him he tries to talk Greagoir into annulling the Circle after you've cleared it, just in case.

And then in the epilogue we find that he goes and slaughters a bunch of innocent apprentices, gets sent to a Templar retreat for "rehabilitation," and then pops up as the Knight-Captain in Kirkwall??

Seriously, what is this man doing with authority over mages???  Make him a guard in the Aeonar if you must- hell, probably the best place for him, because every mage there will fit his "all mages are dangerous criminals" mindset.

Modifié par katiebour, 27 mars 2012 - 07:18 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The part of Cullen going insane never happened, and his assesment that the Ferelden Tower should be annulled is fully justifiable, given how FUBAR the whole situation were. Furthermore mages AREN'T people like you and I. You and I can't shoot lightning out our eyes or fire out our arses. Mages can. Matter of fact is: mages are different.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The part of Cullen going insane never happened, and his assesment that the Ferelden Tower should be annulled is fully justifiable, given how FUBAR the whole situation were. Furthermore mages AREN'T people like you and I. You and I can't shoot lightning out our eyes or fire out our arses. Mages can. Matter of fact is: mages are different.

Mages have the same mind as other humans so they are not different. That they have abilities that can kill is irrelevant they simply need to master it. Myself have masterd several martial arts and i could kill you easily emperor or most other persons i meet.Should i be treated differently? If i lose of myself control of myself i would become very dangerous.

[staindgrey]

It's about playing a character.

My Warrior Male Hawke supported the templars because, despite the wrongs some have committed, he saw that there was a greater evil: the threat of demons. Order needed to be kept, no matter what the cost. And setting the mages free would only compound problems, not solve them.

Yes, by the way the story is told, we are meant to sympathize with the oppressed mages. But that doesn't mean it's our only choice. Some Hawkes would fight for the greater good, realizing the Circle needs to stay in place to keep order, and that means the Templars need to be supported.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The part of Cullen going insane never happened, and his assesment that the Ferelden Tower should be annulled is fully justifiable, given how FUBAR the whole situation were. Furthermore mages AREN'T people like you and I. You and I can't shoot lightning out our eyes or fire out our arses. Mages can. Matter of fact is: mages are different.

Mages have the same mind as other humans so they are not different. That they have abilities that can kill is irrelevant they simply need to master it. Myself have masterd several martial arts and i could kill you easily emperor or most other persons i meet.Should i be treated differently? If i lose of myself control of myself i would become very dangerous.

Since I'm a trained soldier, I'm guessing I could at least give you a run for your money.. Either way yes. Anyone who have been trained to become a killer should be treated differently. Not neccesarily locked up, but then a mark or other sign of one's trainning. The law may not comply us to treat trained killers differently, but we should. And I don't like concealed weapons either. If you conceal your weapon, it means you intend to use it at something you aren't allowed.

And just because the mages have the same miind, does not make them the same as the rest of us. They are different, simply because they have different natural circumstances.

[Urzon]

katiebour wrote...

"Good...Kill Uldred.  Kill them all for what they've done."

He falls back on calling Wynne "mage" and is generally disrespectful.  He tries to convince the Warden to wipe the Tower of every mage (including the children, Petra, Irving, Wynne) because they might be possessed.  If you disagree with him he tries to talk Greagoir into annulling the Circle after you've cleared it, just in case.

And then in the epilogue we find that he goes and slaughters a bunch of innocent apprentices, gets sent to a Templar retreat for "rehabilitation," and then pops up as the Knight-Captain in Kirkwall??

Seriously, what is this man doing with authority over mages???  Make him a guard in the Aeonar if you must- hell, probably the best place for him, because every mage there will fit his "all mages are dangerous criminals" mindset.

While i may not like what he said, I can understand where he is coming from. Since, you do have to remember that he was a prisoner of a demon horde. He was tortured beyond belief, and he couldn't trust anything he saw or was said to him. His very mind was a demon's plaything. I can see why he might want to wish harm against mages after the Warden rescued him (even if the Warden was a mage). Mages and the magic they wield was the cause of the demons getting into the mortal realm.  They made him see all his brother and sisters-in-arms getting killed or enslaved.

So yes, he might be just a bit bitter and jaded where it comes to the whole "mages have rights and deserve freedom" thing. He saw what they can do, and what they would do to gain said freedom. It was bad, beyond ugly, and killed without thought, rhyme, or reason.

Is it wrong that he paints all mages with the same brush? Yes.

Can you blame him after everything he went threw? Not so much. At least for me.

I wouldn't personally mind seeing him DA3 as a companion. He would have an interesting point of view when it comes to the Mage/Templar war. He saw the bad/worse side of the mages and their fight for freedom, but the also saw what happens when the templar have total control of the mages; which is just as bad (and would only get worse outside Chantry laws).

Oh and by the way... Lore-wise the epilogues didn't happen. Since they made DA2 and added more lore to the story, all the epilogues basically become "what-if"s and "maybe"s. So, he didn't kill those apprentices. He just got transfered to Kirkwall because Gregoir thought his way of thinking was more in line with Meredith's.

Modifié par Urzon, 27 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The part of Cullen going insane never happened, and his assesment that the Ferelden Tower should be annulled is fully justifiable, given how FUBAR the whole situation were. Furthermore mages AREN'T people like you and I. You and I can't shoot lightning out our eyes or fire out our arses. Mages can. Matter of fact is: mages are different.

Mages have the same mind as other humans so they are not different. That they have abilities that can kill is irrelevant they simply need to master it. Myself have masterd several martial arts and i could kill you easily emperor or most other persons i meet.Should i be treated differently? If i lose of myself control of myself i would become very dangerous.

Since I'm a trained soldier, I'm guessing I could at least give you a run for your money.. Either way yes. Anyone who have been trained to become a killer should be treated differently. Not neccesarily locked up, but then a mark or other sign of one's trainning. The law may not comply us to treat trained killers differently, but we should. And I don't like concealed weapons either. If you conceal your weapon, it means you intend to use it at something you aren't allowed.

And just because the mages have the same miind, does not make them the same as the rest of us. They are different, simply because they have different natural circumstances.

I think you would appreciate it that you are not locked up every time you came back from the warzone because their is a chance you are suffering from PTSD.  Which can cause you to go on psychosis induced killing spree.

Same goes for the mages. Because they can be dangerous we lock them up. That mages should be immediately trained in their powers when in manifest goes without saying.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The part of Cullen going insane never happened, and his assesment that the Ferelden Tower should be annulled is fully justifiable, given how FUBAR the whole situation were. Furthermore mages AREN'T people like you and I. You and I can't shoot lightning out our eyes or fire out our arses. Mages can. Matter of fact is: mages are different.

Mages have the same mind as other humans so they are not different. That they have abilities that can kill is irrelevant they simply need to master it. Myself have masterd several martial arts and i could kill you easily emperor or most other persons i meet.Should i be treated differently? If i lose of myself control of myself i would become very dangerous.

Since I'm a trained soldier, I'm guessing I could at least give you a run for your money.. Either way yes. Anyone who have been trained to become a killer should be treated differently. Not neccesarily locked up, but then a mark or other sign of one's trainning. The law may not comply us to treat trained killers differently, but we should. And I don't like concealed weapons either. If you conceal your weapon, it means you intend to use it at something you aren't allowed.

And just because the mages have the same miind, does not make them the same as the rest of us. They are different, simply because they have different natural circumstances.

I think you would appreciate it that you are not locked up every time you came back from the warzone because their is a chance you are suffering from PTSD.  Which can cause you to go on psychosis induced killing spree.

Same goes for the mages. Because they can be dangerous we lock them up. That mages should be immediately trained in their powers when in manifest goes without saying.

Well, PTSD doesn't always end up with someone dying. Only in the most extreme cases. Often it is "just" a mental breakdown. And there are all sorts of screenings for soldiers, to determine wether or not they suffer from PTSD, if they submit themselves to it anyway.... In the case of an Abomination, that is sadly not so.