1194 réponses à ce sujet

[Lynata]

DKJaigen wrote...
Why do you think it would not be different?

Why do you think it would? The idea that these "free but moral" mages would gain more magical knowledge than an empire that was willing to sacrifice countless slaves in the pursuit of arcane power simply doesn't sound very logical.

"Simply do and see what happens" is an approach that is, in my opinion, extremely reckless - but an excellent example of how Tevinter came to be...

DKJaigen wrote...
Without context this is useless. Why where they supplying items? Also Wynne was perfectly mercenary like when  they discussed the Orlais civil war. Evangaline herself said that the mages will not partake in that war unless the rewarded.

Why? Because they were patriots? Evangeline says they "will" (read: should) not partake in a war because, as previously mentioned, it is Chantry policy to keep the mages out of the petty fights between human nobles.

DKJaigen wrote...
Ignorance is not a strenght. And thats why templars are so damn ineffective. They have no damn clue how magic works.

Well, a lot of mages don't seem to have a clue either.

--

katiebour wrote...
Her daughter Flora says, and I paraphrase, "Magic's never been in our line.  Perhaps that's where mother erred- she thought that because she wasn't a mage, she could control it."  I can load a save and find the exact quote if you like.

What use would that be? She is still obviously a spellcaster. That her daughter is either lying or simply doesn't know because her mother never told her does not change the fact that she wields a staff and casts magic, making her a mage. We could only discuss if she has always been a mage and simply hid it to escape the Chantry (which would be quite possible) ... or if somehow the trapped demon she discovered was able to awaken a latent magical affinity in her.

katiebour wrote...
Indeed, the only reason the Circles continue is because of Irving and mages like him (generally the Loyalists) who perpetuate the system.  But if every Loyalist becomes an Isolationist or Libertarian, then we have the same situation as post-DA2- outright war between mages and their Templar captors.

And if every mage became a Loyalist or Aequitarian, then we'd have much less friction between mages and everyone else.

katiebour wrote...
Putting teenagers through the Harrowing seems pretty barbaric to me.  I look back and think of where I was at,
in terms of emotional maturity, at 17-22 ish, and I cringe at the thought of people facing a life-or-death evaluation of their willpower and mental stability at that time.

That is a modern day point of view, however. In medieval times, you'd have long been considered an adult and expected to fight in wars, get married, do hard manual labor, work in a business or even govern a nation. Today's society is sheltering its children, and as a result it takes longer for them to reach mental maturity. Keep in mind that as per mother nature, 14 means "old enough to procreate". That this is nowadays regarded as much too young is merely a result of current cultural dogma; as we know this has not always been so.

This is actually how I think the upbringing of long-lived races works in various fantasy settings. Elves etc. are often said to reach maturity at a much later time after their birth, which I think makes sense when they are raised with a similarly "unhurried" approach as modern human society practices it, just dialed up to eleven to reflect their even longer lifespan.

katiebour wrote...
Give a mage responsibilities.  Give him the right to a family, a home, and watch him mature.  Watch him grow into  an adult who weighs the consequences of his actions not only by the cost to himself but by the cost to those he loves.  Let him love.  Do that and you will have a mage who would rather die than bargain with a demon and endanger the lives of his friends, family, children.

Yes. Or you get Quentin.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not against mages marrying - which is allowed in a Circle. This is, however, clearly not a solution preventing people from going nuts. Anyone can become a madman, including people with family. Lady Harimann you mentioned is actually another good example for this. Regardless of whether she has always been a mage or not, her behavior still stands, and where normal people in such a state of mind are already dangerous enough a corrupted mage is a disaster waiting to happen.

katiebour wrote...
And then in the epilogue we find that he goes and slaughters a bunch of innocent apprentices, gets sent to a  Templar retreat for "rehabilitation," and then pops up as the Knight-Captain in Kirkwall??

A potential epilogue which is just as valid as the "Alistair ends up a drunken bum" one.

Since he has neither fled the Ferelden tower nor became Knight-Commander of it, it stands to reason that these potential outcomes are null and void, just like a number of other possibilities that you can achieve depending on your decisions in DA:O.

And his reaction to the situation in the Kinloch Hold tower was quite understandable given what had been done to him, but others have explained this already.

--

Hanz54321 wrote...
All human beings are just sacks of meat
held together by tendons, ligaments, and bone.  Understanding and training in hand to hand combat gives a person an edge - sometimes a great edge.  But not enough to brand that person somehow different.

Where I come from, random civilians toting a gun in public get pulled off the street and put behind bars. What makes mages different from anyone else is that they are born with their "gun" grafted to their arm, and the only known way to remove it is to make him a Tranquil.

You can train and teach them to use this gun responsibly, but unfortunately, it'll always have a tendency to go off on its own. So tell me you'd not treat such persons differently. I doubt it.

Whilst I - and I say this by regarding myself as a "citizen of the world" transcending national/ethnic/gender/racial backgrounds - appreciate so many people standing up for an oppressed minority, the vast majority fails to realize this oppression actually has reasons beyond bias and prejudice, so it often just ends up looking somewhat naive, influenced by a lack of understanding for Thedan mindset and history as well as simply not being at risk yourself. Like complaining about someone infected with a contageous disease being put into quarantine because this "robs this of his right to live free" (whilst living far away from him).

Modifié par Lynata, 27 mars 2012 - 02:10 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The part of Cullen going insane never happened, and his assesment that the Ferelden Tower should be annulled is fully justifiable, given how FUBAR the whole situation were. Furthermore mages AREN'T people like you and I. You and I can't shoot lightning out our eyes or fire out our arses. Mages can. Matter of fact is: mages are different.

Mages have the same mind as other humans so they are not different. That they have abilities that can kill is irrelevant they simply need to master it. Myself have masterd several martial arts and i could kill you easily emperor or most other persons i meet.Should i be treated differently? If i lose of myself control of myself i would become very dangerous.

Since I'm a trained soldier, I'm guessing I could at least give you a run for your money.. Either way yes. Anyone who have been trained to become a killer should be treated differently. Not neccesarily locked up, but then a mark or other sign of one's trainning. The law may not comply us to treat trained killers differently, but we should. And I don't like concealed weapons either. If you conceal your weapon, it means you intend to use it at something you aren't allowed.

And just because the mages have the same miind, does not make them the same as the rest of us. They are different, simply because they have different natural circumstances.

I think you would appreciate it that you are not locked up every time you came back from the warzone because their is a chance you are suffering from PTSD.  Which can cause you to go on psychosis induced killing spree.

Same goes for the mages. Because they can be dangerous we lock them up. That mages should be immediately trained in their powers when in manifest goes without saying.

Well, PTSD doesn't always end up with someone dying. Only in the most extreme cases. Often it is "just" a mental breakdown. And there are all sorts of screenings for soldiers, to determine wether or not they suffer from PTSD, if they submit themselves to it anyway.... In the case of an Abomination, that is sadly not so.

But the system is not fool proof and some soldiers are not even aware they are suffering from PTSD or any other disorder. So i ask you again would you allow yourself to be locked up after returning from a warzone only because you are MAYBE suffering from a psychological disorder.

Well, a lot of mages don't seem to have a clue either.

And you dont find that incredibly dangerous?

Modifié par DKJaigen, 27 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[Lynata]

Hanz54321 wrote...
Ah . . . I was specifically addressing two forumites on the issue of hand to hand combat.  Not guns.  Not mages.

Oh, in that case - apologies! I've seen forumites make the "anyone can kill other people" and the "magic is no different from swords" arguments too often, and in the context of this thread it came along as being on the same track. =)

Modifié par Lynata, 27 mars 2012 - 03:27 .

[Sharn01]

Lynata wrote...

 

dragonflight288 wrote...
....Mages are not at risk in their sleep.

Where do you think demonic possession happens? See page 3, I've quoted a rather detailed passage on the subject. Just like any other normal human, mages enter the Fade when they sleep. The difference being that they actively attract demons.

As cited, demons cannot interact with "the average non-dwarf". Only mages get to actively "participate" in the Fade instead of being limited to a passive presence, the downside being that this activity is like a beacon to malevolent spirits. 

I have always been  curious how much of a beacon mages really are to spirits in normal areas, considering the vast majority of them never encounter a demon outside of their harrowing where a demon is forced on them. 

Modifié par Sharn01, 27 mars 2012 - 04:54 .

[Darkrider296]

I understand that the very occasional mage will slip up and become taken over. That mage can either try to hide their possession very poorly as they'll have to accept monthly possession tests from the mage tax collector type dudes or they will run off and be registered as missing thus they'll be wanted. Blood magic is harder to spot therefore education programs have to be very clear that with blood magic you are allowing your self to be in contact with a demon. Secondly teach that possession is not effective even for practical reasons. I don't doubt that there are some people born with naturally selfish temperaments therefore you have to empathize that YOU are being controlled. Its a complete one way deal. The demon controls you making you just a puppet. Wouldn't you rather have power on your own terms? Plus I have stated that checks and balances would be put in place to not allow Tevinter minded Mages to take over. First they'd be hated by the mass public for tying to take over sole power, secondly the united guard force would decimate those mages because some powers of the templars would be kept (plus some mages would be helping so mage against mage helps even the odds greatly). This is under the assumption that the society will have mages helping out. Mages are people just like us with good and bad in their ranks. Why is hard to imagine that some mages would like to lets say join a guard force or army to help better their society. I guess its like this. An individual mage can do fantastic good just as he can do fanatastic evil. Therefore it comes down to the question does the good out weigh the bad? Yes in my eyes. Since people are usually naturally good than evil there would be way more helpful mages doing extra ordinary amounts of good on a daily basis, which would easily out weigh the occasional evil mage who tries to fight a village every 20-40 years lets say.

Modifié par Darkrider296, 27 mars 2012 - 05:31 .

[KainD]

@Darkrider

How do you check someone for possession?

[glitter_guld]

KainD wrote...

@Darkrider

How do you check someone for possession?

Merrill could do that by checking the blood. It is from one of the quests.

[KainD]

glitter_guld wrote...

KainD wrote...

@Darkrider

How do you check someone for possession?

Merrill could do that by checking the blood. It is from one of the quests.

So you have to be a blood mage to be able to tell if someone is possessed and you need their blood? 

Modifié par KainD, 27 mars 2012 - 07:21 .

[glitter_guld]

Who knows. We just know that blood mages and demon posessed check.

Modifié par glitter_guld, 28 mars 2012 - 12:20 .

[Darkrider296]

No what I'm referring to is that power Anders does on Kerran in Enemies Among Us. Blood magic is a big no no in my eyes. It at least helped for creating the joining but that was only a minor solution to a HUGE problem its usage created.

[Darkrider296]

Some people claim that the power I'm referring to is only because of Justice by I don't get any indication that that is the case. It seems like such a useful power. One little test and boom your done. "Oh honey the Mage possession testers are here" "Oh ok let them in ill just gather the family for the monthly test". "If you don't mind ma'am we'd also like to quickly check the house for anything indicating blood magic". "Oh go right ahead would you like some tea?".

Modifié par Darkrider296, 27 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[Always Alice]

Darkrider296 wrote...

Some people claim that the power I'm referring to is only because of Justice by I don't get any indication that that is the case. It seems like such a useful power.

If you ask him how he did that then he mentions something about how a spirit will defend itself from another spirit, IIRC.

Besides, if there was such an easy way to tell if a mage is possessed do you really think we would meet 90% of the mages we meet in-game? You think Meredith wouldn't have these little tests done daily?

[Always Alice]

katiebour wrote...

Anders says of Thrask:  "He's a good man, I suppose.  For a Templar."

This is after he suggests killing him, I presume?

Fen:  He kept me on a leash like a pet, to mock Qunari custom.
Anders:  (sympathetically) Ouch.

I have a hard time believing this sympathy is genuine, especially since he approves of giving Fenris back to Danarius.

He makes little comments here and there that demonstrate he's generally willing to give people a chance- it's only after Fen starts referring to him exclusively as "Mage" and "Abomination" that their dislike escalates.  Anders gives props to the (very few) decent Templars we come across in-game.  Fenris gives props to Hawke and Bethany but refuses to give Anders, Merrill, or any other mage any kind of praise or acknowledgement.

What other mages are there? The only ones he interacts with when not slicing down crazed blood mages are Hawke and Bethany (possibly), Merrill, and Anders. Like you said, he admits Hawke and Bethany are strong. And why should he praise Anders and Merrill? He thinks they're both incredibly dangerous, and he's right. Anders has a spirit in his head that starts killing things when he gets mad (including an innocent mage, which causes Fenris to disapprove if you let her get killed), and advocates extreme positions that give him a bad reminder of Tevinter.  He thinks Merrill's ignorance is likely to get someone killed (and he's right), and he says he has seen many Tevinter mages start out on the same path as her. I was pretty surprised that he rebuffed Sebastian when he suggested turning them in, because there are definitely legitimate safety concerns with letting these two walk around Kirkwall (something the whole city will realize at the end of Act III, lol).

And considering the number of times Anders patches him up in my playthoughs, I can't help but dislike the ungrateful elf a bit  (I do love Fen, but he's one of the characters I'm most conflicted about.)

I always find it interesting how a lot of people who like Anders dislike Fenris and vice versa. They're essentially two sides of the same coin. But I definitely hear ya about being conflicted about characters. Anders is one of my favorite characters in DA2 (believe it or not!), but I kinda hate him at the same time.

Modifié par Always Alice, 28 mars 2012 - 01:35 .

[Darkrider296]

I''ll admit you may be right on the possession point. But I won't accept defeat to easily . I guess I either have to implement a Spirit possessed mage in the process or accept that some safety measures will have to be lost. To respond to your post about Anders and Fenris. I actually do think that Anders really felt for Fenris at first but his ability to emphasis with the Elf was slowly eroded as Fenris supported slavery of another kind. Near the end his pov was probably that Fenris deserved to be a slave again for supporting other kinds of slavery (not the best reasoning but it excuses Anders of liking slavery). He does say in the game that he wants the right that all Men in Thedas should have. Secondly Anders can lose control but he still brings him self back if you say the right words showing a level of control. Fenris is a bitter creep who lives in a screwed up mansion will never thinking bout making the lives of his people better. Anders is also living under constant watch (more imminent danger) but at least he tries to help as many people as possible. I understand Fenris I do, but at the end of the day I see him as a tragic figure who I end up killing each time.

[dragonflight288]

I have a hard time believing this sympathy is genuine, especially since he approves of giving Fenris back to Danarius.

seven years later when they had time to develop a strong mutual hatred of what the other person stands for.

He thinks Merrill's ignorance is likely to get someone killed (and he's right), and he says he has seen many Tevinter mages start out on the same path as her. I was pretty surprised that he rebuffed Sebastian when he suggested turning them in, because there are definitely legitimate safety concerns with letting these two walk around Kirkwall (something the whole city will realize at the end of Act III, lol).

Merrill didn't get anyone killed. Merethari got herself killed by being an idiot and the Dalish clan were arrogant and hated Merrill for years based on misinformation given them by Merethari. Information like "She'll bring back the darkspawn taint that cost us two hunters!" She tells the dalish that is what Merrill will do. Merrill also goes out of her way to avoid involving anyone other than her and Hawke.

Merethari got herself involved. Merrill's ignorance didn't.

[Always Alice]

I guess I either have to implement a Spirit possessed mage in the process or accept that some safety measures will have to be lost.

Ideally, there shouldn't be any posessed mages to begin with. The only benevolent case of possession observed thus far is with Wynne.

Near the end his pov was probably that Fenris deserved to be a slave again for supporting other kinds of slavery (not the best reasoning but it excuses Anders of liking slavery).

How does that excuse him? For all his talk of freedom he still supports the enslavement of another. No one deserves to be a slave.

Secondly Anders can lose control but he still brings him self back if you say the right words showing a level of control.

And that's the problem. He doesn't break out of Justice's control by himself; he needs outside help. Hawke can't be with him 24/7.

[Always Alice]

 seven years later when they had time to develop a strong mutual hatred of what the other person stands for.

It doesn't matter if it's 14 years later; no one deserves to be enslaved. No matter how much they hate each other, Anders should be against it just because of the general principle.

Merrill didn't get anyone killed. Merethari got herself killed by being an idiot

How is she an idiot for wanting to protect Merrill and her clan?

and the Dalish clan were arrogant and hated Merrill for years based on misinformation given them by Merethari.

The Dalish, being arrogant and quick to judge? Who would have guessed?

Merrill also goes out of her way to avoid involving anyone other than her and Hawke.

Merethari got herself involved. Merrill's ignorance didn't.

Just because Merrill doesn't intend for her actions to affect others doesn't mean that they won't. In case something went wrong, a lot more people could have been hurt besides just Merrill and Hawke. But no, I suppose Marethari didn't have to get involved, but it clearly wasn't a risk she was willing to take.

Modifié par Always Alice, 29 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[dragonflight288]

It doesn't matter if it's 14 years later; no one deserves to be enslaved. No matter how much they hate each other, Anders should be against it just because of the general principle.

Never claimed otherwise. Just pointing out that opinions and sympathies may change given time.

How is she an idiot for wanting to protect Merrill and her clan?

Let's see. Several reasons in fact. Merrill leaves the Dalish during Act 1, so she is no longer officially a member of the clan at that point on. That doesn't mean Merethari is an idiot, but please keep this fact in mind as I continue.

We go to Act 2. We arrive at the Dalish camp, and everyone hates Merrill. Pol is more afraid of Merrill than the Varterral that ultimately kills him (without a struggle.) After he dies, Merethari outright tries to break the deal she made with Merrill, not Hawke, but with Merrill. Then offers to let her return when everyone hates her.

Oh, and Merethari was supposed to be trying to contact another Dalish clan or something to get more Halla. Or even researching their elven heritage, restoring what was once lost, like the Eluvian. Last I checked, that is the very definition of what being a Dalish Elf is all about.

Oh, and becoming an abomination without letting the clan, Merrill, or Hawke know about it was the perfect example of genius and keeping everyone safe. How could that not go wrong?

Just because Merrill doesn't intend for her actions to affect others doesn't mean that they won't. In case something went wrong, a lot more people could have been hurt besides just Merrill and Hawke. But no, I suppose Marethari didn't have to get involved, but it clearly wasn't a risk she was willing to take.

My point was that Merrill went out of her way to make sure the clan was not involved. Merethari got them involved without any input from anyone. Merrill was no longer truly a member of the clan at this point. Hadn't been for years. Merethari had no obligation to Merrill, and the entire clan hated her. Merethari put the clan in greater risk than Merrill ever did.

[Davillo]

I would not support templars even if Bioware paid me, S#&T I would not support them if they made death threats against me.

[Always Alice]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Let's see. Several reasons in fact. Merrill leaves the Dalish during Act 1, so she is no longer officially a member of the clan at that point on. That doesn't mean Merethari is an idiot, but please keep this fact in mind as I continue.

We go to Act 2. We arrive at the Dalish camp, and everyone hates Merrill. Pol is more afraid of Merrill than the Varterral that ultimately kills him (without a struggle.) After he dies, Merethari outright tries to break the deal she made with Merrill, not Hawke, but with Merrill. Then offers to let her return when everyone hates her.
[...]
Oh, and becoming an abomination without letting the clan, Merrill, or Hawke know about it was the perfect example of genius and keeping everyone safe. How could that not go wrong?

lol I see your point.

Oh, and Merethari was supposed to be trying to contact another Dalish clan or something to get more Halla. Or even researching their elven heritage, restoring what was once lost, like the Eluvian. Last I checked, that is the very definition of what being a Dalish Elf is all about.

I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to say here. Are you saying it's a bad thing for Marethari to not want to research the Eluvians?

[dragonflight288]

I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to say here. Are you saying it's a bad thing for Marethari to not want to research the Eluvians?

Not at all. I'm saying that the whole point of the Dalish, what they constantly preach about why they exist, is to restore what was lost of Arlathen. The magics, the immortality, the culture, the language, their gods, and eventually their city. They also say their goal is to help the City Elves remember what they had forgotten. That is the purpose of the Dalish.

Merrill was following that better than Merethari in regards to the Eluvians themselves. Merethari may easily have been researching other things through all three acts and we simply not see it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Dalish is not about finding their old culture. It is about gaining a culture that is their own, wether it is the recreation of one they had, or the creation of one, doesn't matter. All they want is for the Elves to have their own identity again. True, many of the Dalish focus on finding their old culture, but that is in no way their "law" or "purpose".

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 29 mars 2012 - 12:58 .

[slashthedragon]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have a hard time believing this sympathy is genuine, especially since he approves of giving Fenris back to Danarius.

seven years later when they had time to develop a strong mutual hatred of what the other person stands for.

 

Does that happen in every playthrough?  I thought he only said that if Hawke agrees to giving Fenris back.

Modifié par slashthedragon, 29 mars 2012 - 01:02 .