1194 réponses à ce sujet

[LolaLei]

Both sides have driven each other to do disgusting things, though the whole rape thing is just out of order. I dare say Cullen will have a lot to answer for if he's made a companion in DA3... I don't think he raped anyone himself (he's clearly still a shy virgin based on his reaction to the Blooming Rose alone) but surely he must have been aware of what was going on "behind closed doors" I doubt Meredith managed to keep him in the dark regarding stuff like that.

You never know, maybe they'll give him the whole "tortured soul" personality like Anders has and give him a chance to repent by sacrificing himself or something of that nature.

[katiebour]

slashthedragon wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have a hard time believing this sympathy is genuine, especially since he approves of giving Fenris back to Danarius.

seven years later when they had time to develop a strong mutual hatred of what the other person stands for.

 

Does that happen in every playthrough?  I thought he only said that if Hawke agrees to giving Fenris back.

Correct.  DanaDuchy has her usual excellent work in showing all the options for 'Alone' here:

 

It definitely isn't Anders' finest hour.  He's pretty much a dick to Fen from start to end, and even if he doesn't say it, that doesn't mean he isn't thinking it.

Might have something to do with the years of "Abomination" and the like.  There is no love lost between these two.  Fen is a dick to Anders if you bring him along to 'Dissent,' and there are plenty of other instances where both of them are horrible to each other and to Merrill.

As much as I love his character, my Hawke would have had some HARSH words for him if he'd dared to suggest handing Fen back to Danarius on his own.  Fen isn't my fav but I've never turned him over.

I think a lot of times how the characters react depends on how you play your Hawke- it's the difference, for example, between a rivalry Fenris romance and a friendmance.  He's such an ass in a rivalmance, but that's because Hawke is being contrary/dickish to him.  In contrast, in a friendmance he's much more agreeable and pleasant.  A nice Hawke brings out the 'nice' in his/her companions, and a mean one brings out the assholishness in them.

When I played my Viscount b***h!Hawke, I picked the option to blackmail Thrask over Olivia.  Aveline was disgusted, and surprisingly, Fenris all but purred, he was so delighted.  That playthrough was a rough one, because it was the only time I got full friendship with Fenris without trying at all, and I was being as awful in nearly every context as I could.  I had full rivalry with everyone else by endgame, but Fen was my evil toon's best friend.  I had a hard time setting POSSIBLE aspect of his character aside for a time, but I've come to realize that it is simply ONE possible iteration of a complex character.  Same thing goes for Anders.

[LobselVith8]

Always Alice wrote...

katiebour wrote...

He makes little comments here and there that demonstrate he's generally willing to give people a chance- it's only after Fen starts referring to him exclusively as "Mage" and "Abomination" that their dislike escalates.  Anders gives props to the (very few) decent Templars we come across in-game.  Fenris gives props to Hawke and Bethany but refuses to give Anders, Merrill, or any other mage any kind of praise or acknowledgement.

What other mages are there? The only ones he interacts with when not slicing down crazed blood mages are Hawke and Bethany (possibly), Merrill, and Anders. Like you said, he admits Hawke and Bethany are strong. And why should he praise Anders and Merrill? He thinks they're both incredibly dangerous, and he's right. Anders has a spirit in his head that starts killing things when he gets mad (including an innocent mage, which causes Fenris to disapprove if you let her get killed), and advocates extreme positions that give him a bad reminder of Tevinter.  He thinks Merrill's ignorance is likely to get someone killed (and he's right), and he says he has seen many Tevinter mages start out on the same path as her. I was pretty surprised that he rebuffed Sebastian when he suggested turning them in, because there are definitely legitimate safety concerns with letting these two walk around Kirkwall (something the whole city will realize at the end of Act III, lol).

Anders advocates emancipation for his people from a system that he views as slavery. It's the same position Aldenon the Great (who helped Calenhad establish Ferelden from warring teyrnirs) and a pro-mage Hawke adovcate as well - including the references to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. The Hero of Ferelden (from the Surana or Amell background) can even request the new ruler of Ferelden to give his (or her) people their independence from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, with King Alistair and Queen Anora supporting the royal boon.

Merrill isn't ignorant when it comes to magic, she simply has a different point of view than Fenris. Simply because Fenris has an opinion doesn't make it indisputable fact.

Always Alice wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Merrill didn't get anyone killed. Merethari got herself killed by being an idiot

How is she an idiot for wanting to protect Merrill and her clan?

Because, while Merrill got Hawke and his (or her) companions to accompany her to Sundermount - with the intent to kill her if anything went wrong - Marethari didn't warn or inform anyone when she let a demon into her body, only informing Merrill and her companions long after the deed had been done. Marethari posed a danger to everyone in her clan, and she acted carelessly by choosing such an action. The fact that Marethari let Audacity from its imprisonment because she had an opinion about what Audacity might have been planning only makes her seem more foolish.

Always Alice wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Merethari got herself involved. Merrill's ignorance didn't.

Just because Merrill doesn't intend for her actions to affect others doesn't mean that they won't. In case something went wrong, a lot more people could have been hurt besides just Merrill and Hawke. But no, I suppose Marethari didn't have to get involved, but it clearly wasn't a risk she was willing to take.

Merrill is a grown woman. So is Marethari. It isn't Merrill's fault that a grown woman - acting of her own free will - endangered the entire Sabrae clan because she thought Audacity might use the Eluvian to escape its imprisonment. Given that she had an opinion years ago that their ancestors wanted the Eluvian to stay buried - while Gaider addressed that Merrill studied the shard of the Eluvian and investigated the lore behind it - I don't see how Merrill is ignorant here. It seems like she's the only person who put the time and effort into researching this ancient technology, while Marethari keeps acting on what she assumes to be the truth.

[Lynata]

dragonflight288 wrote...
My point was that Merrill went out of her way to make sure the clan was not involved. Merethari got them involved without any input from anyone. Merrill was no longer truly a member of the clan at this point. Hadn't been for years. Merethari had no obligation to Merrill, and the entire clan hated her. Merethari put the clan in greater risk than Merrill ever did.

It stands to reason that the imprisoned demon held some sort of grudge against the elves for having been locked away in the war - or at least I could see the Dalish thinking so. Either way, it's never a smart thing to risk setting a demon free, and Marethari was convinced it would possess Merrill. I see no reason to believe the Keeper with all her knowledge and experience was wrong, just because a young elf dabbling in forbidden magic and naively striking deals with demons and witches thinks herself strong enough.

In the end, I think Marethari's actions were not to protect the clan, but to protect Merrill.

"You always knew your blood magic has a price. I have chosen to pay it for you."

LobselVith8 wrote...
Marethari didn't warn or inform anyone when she let a demon into her body, only informing Merrill and her companions long after the deed had been done.

She knew Merrill was coming, and for the Keeper to drive her lesson home (and hopefully prevent Merrill from ever doing this sort of stuff again) it would require Merrill to fight her, not another Dalish. Not to mention that the clan might have objected, given the risks involved.

Modifié par Lynata, 29 mars 2012 - 02:59 .

[slashthedragon]

katiebour wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have a hard time believing this sympathy is genuine, especially since he approves of giving Fenris back to Danarius.

seven years later when they had time to develop a strong mutual hatred of what the other person stands for.

 

Does that happen in every playthrough?  I thought he only said that if Hawke agrees to giving Fenris back.

Correct.  DanaDuchy has her usual excellent work in showing all the options for 'Alone' here:

 

It definitely isn't Anders' finest hour.  He's pretty much a dick to Fen from start to end, and even if he doesn't say it, that doesn't mean he isn't thinking it.

Might have something to do with the years of "Abomination" and the like.  There is no love lost between these two.  Fen is a dick to Anders if you bring him along to 'Dissent,' and there are plenty of other instances where both of them are horrible to each other and to Merrill.

As much as I love his character, my Hawke would have had some HARSH words for him if he'd dared to suggest handing Fen back to Danarius on his own.  Fen isn't my fav but I've never turned him over.

I think a lot of times how the characters react depends on how you play your Hawke- it's the difference, for example, between a rivalry Fenris romance and a friendmance.  He's such an ass in a rivalmance, but that's because Hawke is being contrary/dickish to him.  In contrast, in a friendmance he's much more agreeable and pleasant.  A nice Hawke brings out the 'nice' in his/her companions, and a mean one brings out the assholishness in them.

When I played my Viscount b***h!Hawke, I picked the option to blackmail Thrask over Olivia.  Aveline was disgusted, and surprisingly, Fenris all but purred, he was so delighted.  That playthrough was a rough one, because it was the only time I got full friendship with Fenris without trying at all, and I was being as awful in nearly every context as I could.  I had full rivalry with everyone else by endgame, but Fen was my evil toon's best friend.  I had a hard time setting POSSIBLE aspect of his character aside for a time, but I've come to realize that it is simply ONE possible iteration of a complex character.  Same thing goes for Anders.

Thank you!  I agree with your viewpoint; I feel that just because Anders/Fenris says something in one playthrough, it doesn't mean it would be the same in every one, and it is based on your Hawke's actions as well.
I'm not sure though if this is good writing or poor writing.  It seems wrong that Anders would support giving Fenris back, since he is against slavery, even if he loathes Fenris.  It makes him a hypocrite. 
Also, I wonder if the companions liked each other at all.  They all seemed to like Hawke, but they always defer to his/her actions (at least I believe so, it's been awhile); no one tries to save Fenris if Hawke wants to give him back, no one tries to stop from killing Anders, no one tries to help Isabela if Hawke lets the Qunari have her.  If I was "friends" with a group like that, I'd always be watching my back.

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari didn't warn or inform anyone when she let a demon into her body, only informing Merrill and her companions long after the deed had been done.

She knew Merrill was coming, and for the Keeper to drive her lesson home (and hopefully prevent Merrill from ever doing this sort of stuff again) it would require Merrill to fight her, not another Dalish. Not to mention that the clan might have objected, given the risks involved.

How did Marethari know Merrill was coming? Merrill is living in the Alienage, Marethari is living in Sundermount. They aren't on speaking terms.

Furthermore, what lesson was Marethari trying to drive home, when Merrill is the only one who bothered to do any actual research on the Eluvian? Marethari endangered the entire clan by keeping them at Sundermount (in spite of the threats they have been receiving), she further endangered their lives when she becomes an abomination because she thought Audacity is going to use the Eluvian to escape, and her actions can be directly responsible for the entire clan getting killed when unless Hawke dissuades the Dalish hunters from trying to commit cold-blooded murder (aka suicide by Hawke). Marethari had no lesson to teach Merrill, because the Keeper was jumping from one baseless assumption to another.

[Lynata]

slashthedragon wrote...
I'm not sure though if this is good writing or poor writing.  It seems wrong that Anders would support giving Fenris back, since he is against slavery, even if he loathes Fenris. It makes him a hypocrite.

Isn't that the point of his character? He claims to fight for all mages, yet he disregards other mages' opinions on the issue if they run contrary to his own. He protests about all mages being held responsible for the bad deeds or mistakes of some, yet expresses his desire to kill every single templar under the sun. He claims to fight for justice, yet kills innocents on the way.

In my experience, a lot of mages and templars are hypocrites. In fact, most humans (and elves growing up in human society) seem to be - it could be rooted in the conflicts these cultures have to deal with, as well as the ancient human habit of organizing their surroundings in clearly distinguishable categories.

In Anders' case, this could also be strengthend by his merger with Justice. If Fenris, in Anders' eyes, supports slavery, it could be Justice that says he should be subjected to it also. "Eye for an eye" and all that. As has been mentioned so many times before, Anders and Justice by themselves are not so bad, it is the combination of the two that is so dangerous.

LobselVith8 wrote...
How did Marethari know Merrill was coming?

She knew Merrill had not let go of the issue. Why else would she do it in the first place if Marethari believed that the Eluvian wouldn't be touched again? Her entire reason was to save her apprentice.

As for how she knew of the time, I guess it could be scouts reporting the approach of Hawke's party long before they arrived, as they'd have done with anyone approaching the settlement. As Marethari explained, the region was perfect for the Dalish due to the many hiding places and easy overlook.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Furthermore, what lesson was Marethari trying to drive home, when Merrill is the only one who bothered to do any actual research on the Eluvian?

That blood magic and dealing with demons is bad and only leads to suffering.

As for why the clan stayed - it actually seems Marethari did not want to let go of Merrill. At least not knowing that she'd set the demon free or generally walk on such a dangerous path. The girl meant a lot to the Keeper - so much that Marethari sacrificed her life for her.

Generally, I am willing to trust in the Keeper's wisdom and experience much more than Merrill's rather naive opinion on the dangers of blood magic and demon deals. Hell, even Anders/Justice calls her reckless, and Justice knows better than any mortal what demons/spirits are capable of.

Modifié par Lynata, 29 mars 2012 - 04:17 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
How did Marethari know Merrill was coming?

She knew Merrill had not let go of the issue. Why else would she do it in the first place if Marethari believed that the Eluvian wouldn't be touched again? Her entire reason was to save her apprentice.

As for how she knew of the time, I guess it could be scouts reporting the approach of Hawke's party long before they arrived, as they'd have done with anyone approaching the settlement. As Marethari explained, the region was perfect for the Dalish due to the many hiding places and easy overlook.

And nevermind the fact that you walk straight past Marethari before you enter Audacity's cave  You can even talk to her, and she asks Hawke to hold Merrill back for a little while IIRC.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 29 mars 2012 - 04:36 .

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

How did Marethari know Merrill was coming?

She knew Merrill had not let go of the issue. Why else would she do it in the first place if Marethari believed that the Eluvian wouldn't be touched again? Her entire reason was to save her apprentice.

As for how she knew of the time, I guess it could be scouts reporting the approach of Hawke's party long before they arrived, as they'd have done with anyone approaching the settlement. As Marethari explained, the region was perfect for the Dalish due to the many hiding places and easy overlook.

There's no evidence that Marethari knew that Merrill was coming beforehand, and since we see Marethari once we arrive at the Dalish camp, I don't see how she would have climbed all the way up the mountain, dealt with any creatures, released the demon Audacity, and then come all the way back down to speak with Hawke and Merrill if the protagonist chose to speak to her.

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Furthermore, what lesson was Marethari trying to drive home, when Merrill is the only one who bothered to do any actual research on the Eluvian?

That blood magic and dealing with demons is bad and only leads to suffering.

Blood magic is the reason that Grey Wardens exist - since their creation involves blood and magic. Even the phylacteries are viewed as a form of blood magic, based on what Gaider said at PAX. Some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn. I don't see saving the world from the greatest threat to all sentient life on Thedas as bad by any measure.

Also, Merrill has stressed that dealing with any spirit is dangerous, and warns Hawke that he needs to be careful if he tries to deal with one. Merrill explains this to Anders:

Merrill: Are you all right?

Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?

Merrill: I'm sorry.

Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!

Merrill: Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.

Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Lynata wrote...

As for why the clan stayed - it actually seems Marethari did not want to let go of Merrill. At least not knowing that she'd set the demon free or generally walk on such a dangerous path. The girl meant a lot to the Keeper - so much that Marethari sacrificed her life for her.

Marethari made an assumption about what might happen in regards to the Eluvian, which seems to have no basis; Marethari didn't know what would happen. In fact, some speculate that Audacity manipulated Marethari in order to get her to lease it from its imprisonment in the totem.

Lynata wrote...

Generally, I am willing to trust in the Keeper's wisdom and experience much more than Merrill's rather naive opinion on the dangers of blood magic and demon deals. Hell, even Anders/Justice calls her reckless, and Justice knows better than any mortal what demons/spirits are capable of.

What wisdom is their in ignorance? Marethari didn't study the lore behind the Eluvian, she didn't extrapolate information from the shard - Merrill did. Merrill also used blood magic proficiently for several years - she never abused her abilities. And given how Anders has a serious problem with Merrill not sharing his religious beliefs about the Fade and the "Maker's First Children," his opinion is merely that: an opinion. As Anders himself admits:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations.

Anders: The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world.

Merrill: We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

As we plainly see, Merrill's Dalish views are a significant part of the issue Anders has with Merrill.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
How did Marethari know Merrill was coming?

She knew Merrill had not let go of the issue. Why else would she do it in the first place if Marethari believed that the Eluvian wouldn't be touched again? Her entire reason was to save her apprentice.

As for how she knew of the time, I guess it could be scouts reporting the approach of Hawke's party long before they arrived, as they'd have done with anyone approaching the settlement. As Marethari explained, the region was perfect for the Dalish due to the many hiding places and easy overlook.

And nevermind the fact that you walk straight past Marethari before you enter Audacity's cave  You can even talk to her, and she asks Hawke to hold Merrill back for a little while IIRC.

I've never seen Marethari standing outside the cave. In fact, it wouldn't be physically possible for Marethari to get past Hawke and Merrill when there's only one way to currently make it to the totem, and it's addressed early on that Audacity's presence has been missing prior to Merrill's arrival in Sundermount.

[slashthedragon]

Lynata wrote...
Isn't that the point of his character? He claims to fight for all mages, yet he disregards other mages' opinions on the issue if they run contrary to his own. He protests about all mages being held responsible for the bad deeds or mistakes of some, yet expresses his desire to kill every single templar under the sun. He claims to fight for justice, yet kills innocents on the way.

In my experience, a lot of mages and templars are hypocrites. In fact, most humans (and elves growing up in human society) seem to be - it could be rooted in the conflicts these cultures have to deal with, as well as the ancient human habit of organizing their surroundings in clearly distinguishable categories.

In Anders' case, this could also be strengthend by his merger with Justice. If Fenris, in Anders' eyes, supports slavery, it could be Justice that says he should be subjected to it also. "Eye for an eye" and all that. As has been mentioned so many times before, Anders and Justice by themselves are not so bad, it is the combination of the two that is so dangerous.

Point.
*sigh* The more analysis I read about the characters, the less I like them.  I wouldn't count on any of them having my back.
Back to fanon it is!

[Lynata]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There's no evidence that Marethari knew that Merrill was coming beforehand, and since we see Marethari once we arrive at the Dalish camp, I don't see how she would have climbed all the way up the mountain, dealt with any creatures, released the demon Audacity, and then come all the way back down to speak with Hawke and Merrill if the protagonist chose to speak to her.

There was also no evidence Marethari did not know, and the cutscenes clarify that the Keeper had taken the demon in before the party arrived. Apparently, she even tried to fight and banish it at first, but it was too strong, so she opted for the only alternative.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Blood magic is the reason that Grey Wardens exist - since their creation involves blood and magic.

And this changes what in the eyes of the Dalish?

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see saving the world from the greatest threat to all sentient life on Thedas as bad by any measure.

Merrill was not intending to save the world from the greatest threat to all sentient life. She took up blood magic because she wanted the Eluvian to work. This is an ideal gateway motivation for demonic corruption.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, Merrill has stressed that dealing with any spirit is dangerous, and warns Hawke that he needs to be careful if he tries to deal with one.

That's nice of her. Maybe she should follow her own advice, then.

Too many people in the Dragon Age franchise sadly don't do this.

LobselVith8 wrote...
What wisdom is their in ignorance? Marethari didn't study the lore behind the Eluvian, she didn't extrapolate information from the shard - Merrill did.

Too bad the Eluvian doesn't actually have anything to do with the demon trapped inside it. She doesn't even know whether he was summoned by the Dalish or the Tevinter, and yet she's willing to set it free. It was obviously strong enough to overcome even the Keeper; I fail to see why Merrill would have fared differently just because she was overconfident.

But I guess this is in the eye of the beholder. I have a more sceptical view on the use and dangers of magic than most, so perhaps all we can do is agree to disagree. In my opinion, the risk was too high, and I partially understand Marethari's reasons in that she intended to save young Merrill from herself and the path she had chosen.

Modifié par Lynata, 29 mars 2012 - 05:01 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
How did Marethari know Merrill was coming?

She knew Merrill had not let go of the issue. Why else would she do it in the first place if Marethari believed that the Eluvian wouldn't be touched again? Her entire reason was to save her apprentice.

As for how she knew of the time, I guess it could be scouts reporting the approach of Hawke's party long before they arrived, as they'd have done with anyone approaching the settlement. As Marethari explained, the region was perfect for the Dalish due to the many hiding places and easy overlook.

And nevermind the fact that you walk straight past Marethari before you enter Audacity's cave  You can even talk to her, and she asks Hawke to hold Merrill back for a little while IIRC.

I've never seen Marethari standing outside the cave. In fact, it wouldn't be physically possible for Marethari to get past Hawke and Merrill when there's only one way to currently make it to the totem, and it's addressed early on that Audacity's presence has been missing prior to Merrill's arrival in Sundermount.

You walk past her in the camp....

[LobselVith8]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And nevermind the fact that you walk straight past Marethari before you enter Audacity's cave  You can even talk to her, and she asks Hawke to hold Merrill back for a little while IIRC. [/quote]

I've never seen Marethari standing outside the cave. In fact, it wouldn't be physically possible for Marethari to get past Hawke and Merrill when there's only one way to currently make it to the totem, and it's addressed early on that Audacity's presence has been missing prior to Merrill's arrival in Sundermount.[/quote]

You walk past her in the camp....[/quote]

My point was that Marethari became an abomination prior to Merrill and Hawke arriving in Sundermount.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There's no evidence that Marethari knew that Merrill was coming beforehand, and since we see Marethari once we arrive at the Dalish camp, I don't see how she would have climbed all the way up the mountain, dealt with any creatures, released the demon Audacity, and then come all the way back down to speak with Hawke and Merrill if the protagonist chose to speak to her.[/quote]

There was also no evidence Marethari did not know, and the cutscenes clarify that the Keeper had taken the demon in before the party arrived. Apparently, she even tried to fight and banish it at first, but it was too strong, so she opted for the only alternative.

[/quote]

Marethari said that banishing Audacity would only make it stronger. Also, how would Marethari have realistically known what Audacity was planning?

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood magic is the reason that Grey Wardens exist - since their creation involves blood and magic.[/quote]

And this changes what in the eyes of the Dalish? [/quote]

What I stated specifically addresses why I don't agree with your opinion about blood magic.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see saving the world from the greatest threat to all sentient life on Thedas as bad by any measure.[/quote]

Merrill was not intending to save the world from the greatest threat to all sentient life. She took up blood magic because she wanted the Eluvian to work. This is an ideal gateway motivation for demonic corruption. [/quote]

Let's not conflate the issue here: you didn't address your opinion about blood magic in terms of how Merrill used it, you addressed the issue of blood magic on its own, and I provided a retort against your specific statement. It's why I mentioned the method to creating new Grey Wardens, and the Grey Warden mages.

If we are addressing Merrill, she used blood magic because she lacked the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard through standard magic. On the surface, the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, and templars hunt down elven mages from the Dalish clans.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, Merrill has stressed that dealing with any spirit is dangerous, and warns Hawke that he needs to be careful if he tries to deal with one.[/quote]

That's nice of her. Maybe she should follow her own advice, then.

Too many people in the Dragon Age franchise sadly don't do this. [/quote]

How did Merrill not follow her own advice? She isn't abusing her abilities, she is using them responsibly for several years in Kirkwall. The Eluvian was something she felt could help the People. She thought that revolutionary technology might have a chance to irrevocably change the lives of elves across the continent, and she took a risk; it's no different than Hawke asking people to risk their lives so that Hawke and his family can become wealthy, except Merrill wants to change the plight of the People rather than purchase a mansion.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

What wisdom is their in ignorance? Marethari didn't study the lore behind the Eluvian, she didn't extrapolate information from the shard - Merrill did.[/quote]

Too bad the Eluvian doesn't actually have anything to do with the demon trapped inside it. She doesn't even know whether he was summoned by the Dalish or the Tevinter, and yet she's willing to set it free. It was obviously strong enough to overcome even the Keeper; I fail to see why Merrill would have fared differently just because she was overconfident. [/quote]

Merrill explicitly states she isn't planning on setting Audacity free if Hawke is aggressive about the situation. She wants to converse with Audacity because of its knowledge about the past. Given that she learned blood magic without setting it free, I'm not certain why you assume she would set it free now (especially when she explicitly says that she won't).

[quote]Lynata wrote...

But I guess this is in the eye of the beholder. I have a more sceptical view on the use and dangers of magic than most, so perhaps all we can do is agree to disagree. In my opinion, the risk was too high, and I partially understand Marethari's reasons in that she intended to save young Merrill from herself and the path she had chosen. [/quote]

You seem to be supporting Marethari's baseless opinion about the situation, when she doesn't seem to have no reason to support her opinion about what she thinks is going to happen. There's no evidence that Audacity was planning to use the restored Eluvian to escape, there's no indication that this is even remotely possible.

Also, what is the intention behind the "young Merrill" comment? Because "young Merrill" actually did the research on the Eluvian that the "older Marethari" apparently didn't. Merrill bothered to get all the information she possibly could about what she was dealing with, while Marethari went from one baseless opinion (about what she thought their ancestors wanted) to another (about Audacity planning to use the Eluvian to escape the totem) without anything to back up either claim. I trust more in the person who bothered to actually research the Eluvian (Merrill) than the person who simply fears it (Marethari).

[Lynata]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Marethari said that banishing Audacity would only make it stronger. Also, how would Marethari have realistically known what Audacity was planning?

Hence she didn't do it. As to how Marethari could have known its intentions - well, it is a trapped demon. What motivations could it possibly have?

LobselVith8 wrote...
Let's not conflate the issue here: you didn't address your opinion about blood magic in terms of how Merrill used it, you addressed the issue of blood magic on its own, and I provided a retort against your specific statement. It's why I mentioned the method to creating new Grey Wardens, and the Grey Warden mages.

Ah, a misunderstanding on my behalf. Allow me to rectify:

I don't support blood magic. The case of the Warden Joining - IF it actually is blood magic (I know a lot of people claim this on the basis that it involves blood and lyrium) - is one isolated case where I would deem it necessary and thus condone it out of a lack of alternatives, given that it seems to be necessary for the greater good. And whilst Merrill may perceive she is following the same cause, objectively this does not apply; the Dalish do not need the Eluvian.

The Eluvian is a teleporter. Activating it would have allowed the demon to break free. Marethari had two choices: let Merrill face it, or do it herself. She chose the latter and apparently tried to fight it, then took the demon into herself and seemingly suppressing its influence long enough to face Merrill for this painful lesson.

An audacious plan, yet no more audacious than Merrill's own. Fitting for this demon's name, and apparently the emotion it preyed upon.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I trust more in the person who bothered to actually research the Eluvian (Merrill) than the person who simply fears it (Marethari).

I trust in the person who knows more about magic, and that'd be the Keeper.
The Eluvian itself wasn't the threat - it was what it had become. And you don't "research" demons, you avoid them. Unless you want to get something like in Asunder.

[KainD]

Lynata wrote...
 And you don't "research" demons, you avoid them. 

Nope, you do. And you reasearch blood magic, because it can be useful. You don't avoid fire because it can burn, you find a way to cook yourself a meal. Same with blood magic and demons. Demons are actully alive, so there are ways to communicate with them properly, which also should be researched. 

[Shadowvalker]

I ALWAYS side with the mages! Why? You don't kill people for something they haven't done - espcially when the judges are equal to drug addicts! End of story!

Magic might be a weapon of mass destruction but only if used so!

[slashthedragon]

Shadowvalker wrote...

I ALWAYS side with the mages! Why? You don't kill people for something they haven't done - espcially when the judges are equal to drug addicts! End of story!

Magic might be a weapon of mass destruction but only if used so!

I kind of wish the next game's timeline is farther into the future, to show what happened after the war.  Did mages integrate into society?  Were they almost all killed off?  Did they gain power and use it wisely/unwisely?

[Always Alice]

katiebour wrote...
It definitely isn't Anders' finest hour.  He's pretty much a dick to Fen from start to end, and even if he doesn't say it, that doesn't mean he isn't thinking it.

That's for sure.  I think this moment is perhaps his most dickish, with telling Merrill the world would be better off without her (after her mother-figure died!) and making rude comments about Aveline's dead husband's sex life as close second and third.

Might have something to do with the years of "Abomination" and the like.  There is no love lost between these two.  Fen is a dick to Anders if you bring him along to 'Dissent,' and there are plenty of other instances where both of them are horrible to each other and to Merrill.

I really feel for Merrill. She's a lot tougher then she looks, because I would have not been able to put up with those two for seven years.

And in that particular situation, I think Fenris is being a lot less dickish then he could have been. If you bring him with you and ask him what happened after the killing/almost-killing of Ella, Fenris says something about Anders needing to know his limitations. Anders gets ticked off and says "fine, kick a man when he's down,"and Fenris says it was a suggestion, not a condemnation. I was really surprised when I heard this, because I figured it would be in character for Fenris to start chewing him out right then.

I think a lot of times how the characters react depends on how you play your Hawke- it's the difference, for example, between a rivalry Fenris romance and a friendmance.  He's such an ass in a rivalmance, but that's because Hawke is being contrary/dickish to him.  In contrast, in a friendmance he's much more agreeable and pleasant.  A nice Hawke brings out the 'nice' in his/her companions, and a mean one brings out the assholishness in them.

When I played my Viscount b***h!Hawke, I picked the option to blackmail Thrask over Olivia.  Aveline was disgusted, and surprisingly, Fenris all but purred, he was so delighted.  That playthrough was a rough one, because it was the only time I got full friendship with Fenris without trying at all, and I was being as awful in nearly every context as I could.  I had full rivalry with everyone else by endgame, but Fen was my evil toon's best friend.  I had a hard time setting POSSIBLE aspect of his character aside for a time, but I've come to realize that it is simply ONE possible iteration of a complex character.  Same thing goes for Anders.

Yeah, that certainly is one incentive for multiple playthroughs. Hawke can bring out either the best or the worst in his companions. When you see these reactions, all you're seeing is a different side of the same character.

[Always Alice]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders advocates emancipation for his people from a system that he views as slavery. It's the same position Aldenon the Great (who helped Calenhad establish Ferelden from warring teyrnirs) and a pro-mage Hawke adovcate as well - including the references to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. The Hero of Ferelden (from the Surana or Amell background) can even request the new ruler of Ferelden to give his (or her) people their independence from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, with King Alistair and Queen Anora supporting the royal boon.

Merrill isn't ignorant when it comes to magic, she simply has a different point of view than Fenris. Simply because Fenris has an opinion doesn't make it indisputable fact.

I don't see how any of this would (or should) influence Fenris' opinion...? Other people view it as a means of slavery, while Fenris sees it as a necessary means of control. Obiviously he's going to disagree or be suspicious of people who don't share his views, given his experiences with magic. And why should what the mage Hero does impact his opinion? He never met the Hero; for all he knows the Hero could have been his worst fears about magic personified (and s/he very well could be, depending on how you RP), and the monarchs are just too stupid to see. And Merrill's view is something that he has seen many mages in Tevinter hold before falling on a downward path,so I don't see how her having a different view should make him think higher of her.

Because, while Merrill got Hawke and his (or her) companions to accompany her to Sundermount - with the intent to kill her if anything went wrong - Marethari didn't warn or inform anyone when she let a demon into her body, only informing Merrill and her companions long after the deed had been done. Marethari posed a danger to everyone in her clan, and she acted carelessly by choosing such an action. The fact that Marethari let Audacity from its imprisonment because she had an opinion about what Audacity might have been planning only makes her seem more foolish.

Given that the dmon was imprisoned by the Dalish one could reasonably assume that the demon isn't happy and is plotting something. So I would say that Marethari's actions derive more from an educated guess than an opinion.

That being said, getting possessed herself wasn't the smartest thing to do.

Merrill is a grown woman. So is Marethari. It isn't Merrill's fault that a grown woman - acting of her own free will - endangered the entire Sabrae clan because she thought Audacity might use the Eluvian to escape its imprisonment. Given that she had an opinion years ago that their ancestors wanted the Eluvian to stay buried - while Gaider addressed that Merrill studied the shard of the Eluvian and investigated the lore behind it - I don't see how Merrill is ignorant here. It seems like she's the only person who put the time and effort into researching this ancient technology, while Marethari keeps acting on what she assumes to be the truth.

As the keeper, her first priority should be keeping the clan safe. Given what heppened with Mahariel and Tamlen, it's no surprised she wanted to nix the whole mirror idea.

I suppose "ignorant" wouldn't be the best word to describe Merrill..."naive" might be more accurate.

[dragonflight288]

I don't support blood magic. The case of the Warden Joining - IF it actually is blood magic (I know a lot of people claim this on the basis that it involves blood and lyrium) - is one isolated case where I would deem it necessary and thus condone it out of a lack of alternatives, given that it seems to be necessary for the greater good. And whilst Merrill may perceive she is following the same cause, objectively this does not apply; the Dalish do not need the Eluvian.

Let me bring up another ritual where blood isn't powering something. Finn in Witch Hunt needs Dalish Blood to track down the Lights of Arlathan. The Warden can bluntly ask if its blood magic because of the requirement for blood. This is his response.

"Finn: Well, it can be viewed as blood magic. It's not fueling the spell, but more like a component...it's a grey area!"

Anything that uses blood at all, in a ritual or in a spell, is blood magic in the rigid definition of the Chantry. And even things that aren't blood magic are considered maleficar (Wynne calls Morrigan a Maleficar based on her shapeshifting abilities, rather than any blood magic) if the practice any magic that isn't authorized by the Circle. Blood magic or not.

I take issue with the spells that controls people's minds. But if you are doing something with blood magic simply because you lack the lyrium (which is controlled by the Chantry) to do so, then that is simply an option that exists. And if the blood magic is never used to influence another person, what makes it harmful?

[Lynata]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Anything that uses blood at all, in a ritual or in a spell, is blood magic in the rigid definition of the Chantry.

Well, the Chantry doesn't regard phylacteries as blood magic, even though as per David Gaider it is (I'd be inclined to disagree as I don't see the blood as the empowering factor, but this is a personal opinion and it's not my setting).

dragonflight288 wrote...
And if the blood magic is never used to influence another person, what makes it harmful?

Apart from the corrupting influence of power - which is probably considerable enough with normal magic already?

I'd say the little problem that it weakens the Veil even stronger than the usual spells and makes it easier for demons to cross over into the mortal realm.

Modifié par Lynata, 30 mars 2012 - 03:06 .

[DKJaigen]

Lynata wrote...

Apart from the corrupting influence of power - which is probably considerable enough with normal magic already?

Yes and the mages should kill all templars because power corrupts them as well. and then the chantry then the noblemen and then the kings and queens because power corrupts. Or we can just agree that this argument is just bull****.

I'd say the little problem that it weakens the Veil even stronger than the usual spells and makes it easier for demons to cross over into the mortal realm.

You have no proof of this. No where in the lore does it say that regular use of bloodmagic weakens the veil. We only know that a bloodmage can sunder the veil and summon demons but thats it. In fact in one vague piece of information suggests that bloodmagic is safer to use then regular magic because you dont need to draw power from the fade. Which makes sense because you use your own blood.

[Shadowvalker]

Well, then we should ban paperclips for those too can be abused.

Accepting that magic is a part of Thedas do NOT grand anybody the right to "control" others through ditactor like means!

Should we abbandon nuclear research for the same reason - that it could be used as a weapon of mass destruction? And then creating a policeforce made up with a bunch of drug addicts to monitor every scientist? Oh - and not forgetting pass judgment without giving them their day in court?

I for one would fight any system like that!

[Dave of Canada]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Well, then we should ban paperclips for those too can be abused.

Paperclips can blow up cities, raise the dead, control minds and kill people without their will? Jesus, we should recall those!