1194 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadowvalker]

Okay - then keep on condemnig people for something they haven't done! A truely wise and fair way of doing things!

Where is the border? I would NOT like to live here anymore!

[Dave of Canada]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Okay - then keep on condemnig people for something they haven't done! A truely wise and fair way of doing things!

Wise and fair are mutually exclusive in this case.

Where is the border? I would NOT like to live here anymore!

Well, you can go to Tevinter. I'm sure they'd treat people fairly before they sacrifice you ritually or enslave you.

No wait, maybe the Qunari would be better. Their indoctrination is nice, serves the best soups.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 mars 2012 - 08:26 .

[katiebour]

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]Shadowvalker wrote...

Okay - then keep on condemning people for something they haven't done! A truely wise and fair way of doing things![/quote]

Wise and fair are mutually exclusive in this case.[/quote]

Magic is not all bad- even Fenris admits that when you meet him.  He simply reserves judgment based on the caliber of the person controlling the magic, as he sees it.

Magic can be used for healing, for potions, salves (the DA RPG set mentions several items imbued with Creation magic) for defense against invaders and Darkspawn, etc.  Mages can be and often are GOOD people.  Seriously, why stop at Circles?  Why not, as Orsino laments, simply drown mages as children?  Why give them the illusion of hope if you're just going to lock them up their entire lives, letting them out only when allowed and usually once they've become a senior enchanter (Again as per the DA RPG set; perhaps merely only 30-40 years of a 50-60 year lifespan spent in prison!  Wonderful!)

The Circles have been annuled seventeen times in the history of Thedas thus far.  A single group of people has have been imprisoned on thought-crime for a thousand years, and from time to time the guys in power decide simply to kill everyone within their jail, Harrowed or not, innocent or guilty, simply because they can and because they are afraid.

A just society cannot condemn tens of thousands of innocent people to imprisonment, torture, and death based on a "maybe."  Imagine the good these people could do in protecting, serving, and healing their fellow man across the country.  How many innocent lives would be saved?  If every mage in Kinloch Hold had been allowed to fight the darkspawn, instead of the measly handful allowed out, they may well have turned the Horde back at Ostagar, Loghain or no.  How many quests do you have in either game where a single mage to defend or heal would have prevented tragedy entirely?

By not granting mages freedom, Thedan society is shooting itself in the foot.  Not only are they oppressing a powerful group (and it is often the oppression itself that leads desperate mages to dark paths) but they are condemning the rest of society to a life without the aid of magic.

[quote]Where is the border? I would NOT like to live here anymore![/quote]

[quote]Well, you can go to Tevinter. I'm sure they'd treat people fairly before they sacrifice you ritually or enslave you.

No wait, maybe the Qunari would be better. Their indoctrination is nice, serves the best soups.
[/quote][/quote]

Tevinter is more than Fenris' biased opinion.  He's seen the worst that that society has produced- has been privy to the atrocities of the extremely powerful and corrupt.  But even he admits that there are good people, nobles who don't own slaves or practice blood magic.

Danarius, being of a certain mindset, would have surrounded himself with other depraved individuals.  This is what Fenris saw and does not neccessarily reflect the whole of reality- simply his own sad viewpoint as the leash-slave of a terrible person.  

And Tevinter doesn't hold a monopoly on terrible people- Arl Rendon Howe and his torture dungeons and Vaughn's rapist, murdering son come to mind.  Just as evil people are everywhere, so are good people.

From the DA RPG set:
Tevinter Magister
A Tevinter mage who becomes influential and powerful enough may be appointed to the Senate. Though this position does not automatically grant access to land or money, there are plenty of interests willing to compensate a friendly magister for their vote. This title is only available to mages of Tevinter origins, though given the Imperium’s respect for magical abilities, it may be possible for a powerful foreign-born mage to prove loyal enough to earn a seat in the Senate.

First Tier
The character’s position in the Senate is an unfavorable one, with little influence outside the area they represent. A house and/or country estate are possible, but income is restricted to whatever the character can produce on their own—or what bribes they can secure. Troops are likewise restricted, likely to personal bodyguards.

Second Tier
As a senator of note, the character’s voice and vote carry great weight. Many individuals and groups are eager for their support, but other magisters are sure to have conflicting desires. Magisters of this authority may command a legion, head a magical academy or oversee large portions of the Imperium’s commerce, whatever their interest.

***********

Magisters in Tevinter deal in politics.  But they also do research, fight in the war against the Qunari, or act in trade, much like any other noble group.  Nothing in that description implies that they all keep slaves, or use blood magic, or are irreversibly and morally corrupt.

The Qunari are terribly oppressive to mages, and to anyone who doesn't fit within their system.  I readily grant that.

Modifié par katiebour, 30 mars 2012 - 09:59 .

[dragonflight288]

The Qunari are terribly oppressive to mages, and to anyone who doesn't fit within their system. I readily grant that.

So is the Chantry. An example from in the game is the templars capturing a Dalish hunter and torturing him with fire for information on mages, not once caring about the elves (the templar in charge outright says she doesn't care a bit about elves) well-being or opinions.

When I think of the Chantry, I think of these words.

Down with Big Brother.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 30 mars 2012 - 01:51 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Since the Dalish are basically vagrants and poachers encroaching on human lands, and that torture was a cultural norm (for lack of a better description) which weren't exclusive to the Chantry, you can't really hold the treatment of the Dalish against the Chantry specifically. All humans treat Dalish poorly.

[katiebour]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Since the Dalish are basically vagrants and poachers encroaching on human lands, and that torture was a cultural norm (for lack of a better description) which weren't exclusive to the Chantry, you can't really hold the treatment of the Dalish against the Chantry specifically. All humans treat Dalish poorly.

The elves were there first:  
http://dragonage.wik...athan:_Part_One 

So no, the Dalish are the last remnants of a group that was forced from their lands, made war on, had an Exalted March declared against them, and were systematically exterminated/enslaved by humanity.  They roam lands that used to be theirs, and there may still be places long-lost where elvhen ancestors went into Uthanera- the Waking Dream, now untended, unguarded, and which their descendents have been forced by fate to abandon.

http://dragonage.wik...athan:_Part_Two 

And I pretty much do hold the treatment of the Dalish against both ancient Tevinter AND the Chantry- what Tevinter started, the Chantry finished, exterminating, enslaving, and forcing conversion on all but the toughest holdouts- the modern Dalish.

http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Being first does not mean you have a claim currently. Just look at the native Americans..

And the Chantry merely defended itself against the Dalish during the Exalted March, what they did to the Dales, the Dalish had brought on themselves. They lost a war, and now several hundred years later, they are still butthurt about it. Bunch of whiners.

[katiebour]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Being first does not mean you have a claim currently. Just look at the native Americans..

And the Chantry merely defended itself against the Dalish during the Exalted March, what they did to the Dales, the Dalish had brought on themselves. They lost a war, and now several hundred years later, they are still butthurt about it. Bunch of whiners.

Riiiight.  I smell "eau de trololololol."

You know what they say:

http://ts3.mm.bing.n...097d363d94e03ad

Modifié par katiebour, 30 mars 2012 - 02:53 .

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari said that banishing Audacity would only make it stronger. Also, how would Marethari have realistically known what Audacity was planning?

Hence she didn't do it. As to how Marethari could have known its intentions - well, it is a trapped demon. What motivations could it possibly have?

In other words, Marethari made an assumption with no evidence to support it.

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's not conflate the issue here: you didn't address your opinion about blood magic in terms of how Merrill used it, you addressed the issue of blood magic on its own, and I provided a retort against your specific statement. It's why I mentioned the method to creating new Grey Wardens, and the Grey Warden mages.

Ah, a misunderstanding on my behalf. Allow me to rectify:

I don't support blood magic. The case of the Warden Joining - IF it actually is blood magic (I know a lot of people claim this on the basis that it involves blood and lyrium) - is one isolated case where I would deem it necessary and thus condone it out of a lack of alternatives, given that it seems to be necessary for the greater good. And whilst Merrill may perceive she is following the same cause, objectively this does not apply; the Dalish do not need the Eluvian.

The Eluvian is a teleporter. Activating it would have allowed the demon to break free. Marethari had two choices: let Merrill face it, or do it herself. She chose the latter and apparently tried to fight it, then took the demon into herself and seemingly suppressing its influence long enough to face Merrill for this painful lesson.

Considering that Morrigan addresses to The Warden that the Eluvian is a doorway "beyond this world, and beyond the Fade," there's nothing to support that the Eluvian could be used to free a demon trapped inside a totem by ancient magic. Marethari made an assumption that ended up with her becoming an abomination, and potentially costing the entire clan their lives if they try to commit cold-blooded murder against Hawke and Merrill.

Lynata wrote...

An audacious plan, yet no more audacious than Merrill's own. Fitting for this demon's name, and apparently the emotion it preyed upon.

If Audacity managed to manipulate Marethari into freeing it from its totem, then certainly.

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I trust more in the person who bothered to actually research the Eluvian (Merrill) than the person who simply fears it (Marethari).

I trust in the person who knows more about magic, and that'd be the Keeper.
The Eluvian itself wasn't the threat - it was what it had become. And you don't "research" demons, you avoid them. Unless you want to get something like in Asunder.

Marethari comes from a place of ignorance, since she seems to have no real knowledge about the Eluvian, while we have Merrill actively pursuing information about it through the lore and through study of the shard of the Eluvian. I trust the person who actually knows what they are talking about, rather than the person who jumps from one baseless assumption to another.

[EmperorSahlertz]

katiebour wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Being first does not mean you have a claim currently. Just look at the native Americans..

And the Chantry merely defended itself against the Dalish during the Exalted March, what they did to the Dales, the Dalish had brought on themselves. They lost a war, and now several hundred years later, they are still butthurt about it. Bunch of whiners.

Riiiight.  I smell "eau de trololololol."

You know what they say:

http://ts3.mm.bing.n...097d363d94e03ad

It is trolling now to actually question the victimization of the Dalish?

I honestly don't care for the Dalish. True the way they are treated is horrid, but no more so, than say any poor fella in the cities are by nobility. The fate they suffer now is one they brought on themselves when they started a war they could not win.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It is trolling now to actually question the victimization of the Dalish?

I honestly don't care for the Dalish. True the way they are treated is horrid, but no more so, than say any poor fella in the cities are by nobility. The fate they suffer now is one they brought on themselves when they started a war they could not win.

According to the Orlesian version of events, the Dalish started the start, but that's only one version. According to the Dalish version of events, the war started because the Dalish kicked out the missionaries from the Dales, and the Chantry then sent in templars. It's certainly not a clear-cut issue.

Always Alice wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders advocates emancipation for his people from a system that he views as slavery. It's the same position Aldenon the Great (who helped Calenhad establish Ferelden from warring teyrnirs) and a pro-mage Hawke adovcate as well - including the references to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. The Hero of Ferelden (from the Surana or Amell background) can even request the new ruler of Ferelden to give his (or her) people their independence from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, with King Alistair and Queen Anora supporting the royal boon.

Merrill isn't ignorant when it comes to magic, she simply has a different point of view than Fenris. Simply because Fenris has an opinion doesn't make it indisputable fact.

I don't see how any of this would (or should) influence Fenris' opinion...? Other people view it as a means of slavery, while Fenris sees it as a necessary means of control. Obiviously he's going to disagree or be suspicious of people who don't share his views, given his experiences with magic. And why should what the mage Hero does impact his opinion? He never met the Hero; for all he knows the Hero could have been his worst fears about magic personified (and s/he very well could be, depending on how you RP), and the monarchs are just too stupid to see. And Merrill's view is something that he has seen many mages in Tevinter hold before falling on a downward path,so I don't see how her having a different view should make him think higher of her.

I think you misunderstood me, because I wasn't trying to argue that Anders or Merrill should change Fenris' views on magic and mages; I'm addressing that simply because he has an opinion doesn't make it fact, it's merely his views on the situation, and two particular people with magical abilities.

Furthermore, I referenced Aldenon the Great and the Hero of Ferelden who asked for the Magi boon because I don't think Anders' views are radical, since other people have shared them throughout history.

Also, Fenris doesn't really understand Merrill's views, primarily because he never tries to. He has rebuffed her every time she tried to extend her hand to him in friendship, so he's the last person who would have any understanding of her views about magic.

Always Alice wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because, while Merrill got Hawke and his (or her) companions to accompany her to Sundermount - with the intent to kill her if anything went wrong - Marethari didn't warn or inform anyone when she let a demon into her body, only informing Merrill and her companions long after the deed had been done. Marethari posed a danger to everyone in her clan, and she acted carelessly by choosing such an action. The fact that Marethari let Audacity from its imprisonment because she had an opinion about what Audacity might have been planning only makes her seem more foolish.

Given that the dmon was imprisoned by the Dalish one could reasonably assume that the demon isn't happy and is plotting something. So I would say that Marethari's actions derive more from an educated guess than an opinion.

That being said, getting possessed herself wasn't the smartest thing to do.

Plotting something? That sounds likely. Audacity could have been plotting to manipulate Marethari into letting it loose.

Always Alice wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill is a grown woman. So is Marethari. It isn't Merrill's fault that a grown woman - acting of her own free will - endangered the entire Sabrae clan because she thought Audacity might use the Eluvian to escape its imprisonment. Given that she had an opinion years ago that their ancestors wanted the Eluvian to stay buried - while Gaider addressed that Merrill studied the shard of the Eluvian and investigated the lore behind it - I don't see how Merrill is ignorant here. It seems like she's the only person who put the time and effort into researching this ancient technology, while Marethari keeps acting on what she assumes to be the truth.

As the keeper, her first priority should be keeping the clan safe. Given what heppened with Mahariel and Tamlen, it's no surprised she wanted to nix the whole mirror idea.

I suppose "ignorant" wouldn't be the best word to describe Merrill..."naive" might be more accurate.

When it comes to human culture, Merrill is certainly naive - she's a Dalish elf with little knowledge about a society that is completely alien to her. When it comes to magic and the Eluvian, however, Merrill seems to be the person who possesses a great deal of knowledge. Throughout the narrative, she's one of the most intelligent mages, and the only person who seems to have any genuine knowledge about the Eluvian.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It is trolling now to actually question the victimization of the Dalish?

I honestly don't care for the Dalish. True the way they are treated is horrid, but no more so, than say any poor fella in the cities are by nobility. The fate they suffer now is one they brought on themselves when they started a war they could not win.

According to the Orlesian version of events, the Dalish started the start, but that's only one version. According to the Dalish version of events, the war started because the Dalish kicked out the missionaries from the Dales, and the Chantry then sent in templars. It's certainly not a clear-cut issue.

According to that one Dalish source (which by the way is worth less than the paper it is written on) there weren't even a war at all. According to it, it was just the Chantry which suddenly got angry at them, and destroyed their homeland.

[Lazy Jer]

The Dalish aren't encroaching on human lands, really. The areas they tend to inhabit are lands that the humans aren't using. Not coincidentally, when the humans start using that land, the Dalish move on. As for the Dalish treatment of humans, that's a lot like the Chantry's treatment of the Dalish (currently). It depends on the Chantry/Dalish Clan. Different clans have different approaches to how to treat humans.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Human have different approaches to how they treat Dalish aswell... There is a reason that Dalish are usually shunned. It's basically a viscous cycle. But the Dalish brought it on themselves. And they are encroaching. They are not part of any nationality, and they hunt the game of the widlerness of a sovereign country. They do try and remain secluded from human society, but that doesn't change the facts of what they are doing.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Orlesian version of events, the Dalish started the start, but that's only one version. According to the Dalish version of events, the war started because the Dalish kicked out the missionaries from the Dales, and the Chantry then sent in templars. It's certainly not a clear-cut issue.

According to that one Dalish source (which by the way is worth less than the paper it is written on) there weren't even a war at all. According to it, it was just the Chantry which suddenly got angry at them, and destroyed their homeland.

It's not one single source, it's the same version of events that the Dalish clans across Thedas trust as the reason behind the fall of the Dales - the Exalted March against the Dales started because of the elves refusal to worship the Maker, starting with the missionaries, and becoming heated with the incursion of the templars. Simply because you, personally, dislike it doesn't mean that it's invalid.

[Lazy Jer]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Human have different approaches to how they treat Dalish aswell... [/quote]

Well yeah, that too.

[quote]There is a reason that Dalish are usually shunned. It's basically a viscous cycle. [/quote]

From what I've seen the Dalish aren't so much as ignored.  I haven't played through all the backgrounds in DA:O yet but the only people I've heard mention the Dalish are the city elves.[/quote]

[quote]But the Dalish brought it on themselves. And they are encroaching. They are not part of any nationality, and they hunt the game of the widlerness of a sovereign country. They do try and remain secluded from human society, but that doesn't change the facts of what they are doing.[/quote]

The area they "encroach" is usually wildnerness that humans rarely even go into unless their flat out lost.  Denirum doesn't seem to mind, Redcliff doesn't seem to mind, and Merrill's clan hangs out in the Free Marches for a long time and Kirkwall doesn't seem to mind.  So where's the harm in what the Dalish are doing?  Especially since they don't over hunt any one area?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of these "Condem the Chantry!" people.  What happened with the Dales and the Exalted March happened a long time ago and had probably had a heck of a lot more to do with politics in Orlais then any religious issues.  I'm just saying that the Dalish aren't bugging anyone, so why bug them?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Human have different approaches to how they treat Dalish aswell... There is a reason that Dalish are usually shunned.

I'm certain that the fact that the templars hunt their elven mages might play a part in the hostilities between humans and the Dalish.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It's basically a viscous cycle. But the Dalish brought it on themselves.

According to the Orlesian version of events.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And they are encroaching. They are not part of any nationality, and they hunt the game of the widlerness of a sovereign country. They do try and remain secluded from human society, but that doesn't change the facts of what they are doing.

The Dalish are trying to survive - hunting to feed their families, living in seclusion from human society, trying to restore their past.

[Shadowvalker]

Perhaps the thread should have been named - How can anyone support the Templars after the Dales?

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Orlesian version of events, the Dalish started the start, but that's only one version. According to the Dalish version of events, the war started because the Dalish kicked out the missionaries from the Dales, and the Chantry then sent in templars. It's certainly not a clear-cut issue.

According to that one Dalish source (which by the way is worth less than the paper it is written on) there weren't even a war at all. According to it, it was just the Chantry which suddenly got angry at them, and destroyed their homeland.

It's not one single source, it's the same version of events that the Dalish clans across Thedas trust as the reason behind the fall of the Dales - the Exalted March against the Dales started because of the elves refusal to worship the Maker, starting with the missionaries, and becoming heated with the incursion of the templars. Simply because you, personally, dislike it doesn't mean that it's invalid.

Which we know is false, since we got records proving that the Exalted March weren't called before the Dalish had laid siege to Val Royaux. So basically the Dalish are just trying to victimize themselves, instead of manning up to the fact that they lost the war, and get on with their lives. 

Lazy Jer wrote...

There is a reason that Dalish are usually shunned. It's basically a viscous cycle.

From what I've seen the Dalish aren't so much as ignored.  I haven't played through all the backgrounds in DA:O yet but the only people I've heard mention the Dalish are the city elves.

They aren't mentioned by anyone else, because they don't have contact with them. I was talking out from codex entries and other lore sources, which pretty clearly tells us that most humans shuns the Dalish.

Lazy Jer wrote... 

But the Dalish brought it on themselves. And they are encroaching. They are not part of any nationality, and they hunt the game of the widlerness of a sovereign country. They do try and remain secluded from human society, but that doesn't change the facts of what they are doing.

The area they "encroach" is usually wildnerness that humans rarely even go into unless their flat out lost.  Denirum doesn't seem to mind, Redcliff doesn't seem to mind, and Merrill's clan hangs out in the Free Marches for a long time and Kirkwall doesn't seem to mind.  So where's the harm in what the Dalish are doing?  Especially since they don't over hunt any one area?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of these "Condem the Chantry!" people.  What happened with the Dales and the Exalted March happened a long time ago and had probably had a heck of a lot more to do with politics in Orlais then any religious issues.  I'm just saying that the Dalish aren't bugging anyone, so why bug them?

They don't hurt anyone (usually), but that was not my point. I was speaking of technicalities. No matter how you twist and turn it, they ARE encroaching and poaching on a soveriegn nation's lands. What harm comes of it is debatable, but again, that was never my point.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 30 mars 2012 - 03:56 .

[Lazy Jer]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Perhaps the thread should have been named - How can anyone support the Templars after the Dales?

But then we'd be confused when it eventually degenerates into an argument about the Qunari.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Human have different approaches to how they treat Dalish aswell... There is a reason that Dalish are usually shunned.

I'm certain that the fact that the templars hunt their elven mages might play a part in the hostilities between humans and the Dalish.

 
They are in another nation's lands and they need to follow their laws. They don't so they get hunted.

LobselVith8 wrote... 

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It's basically a viscous cycle. But the Dalish brought it on themselves.

According to the Orlesian version of events.

 
According to historical records more like. Instead of some mouth to mouth story from a campfire.

LobselVith8 wrote... 

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And they are encroaching. They are not part of any nationality, and they hunt the game of the widlerness of a sovereign country. They do try and remain secluded from human society, but that doesn't change the facts of what they are doing.

The Dalish are trying to survive - hunting to feed their families, living in seclusion from human society, trying to restore their past.

Twist and turn it all you like. The Dalish are breaking the laws of the countries they encroaching on, their intentions and reasons be damned. They are breaking the law. Sadly Thedas' general justice system is rather barbaric, and most punishment usually consist of toture and/or execution.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not one single source, it's the same version of events that the Dalish clans across Thedas trust as the reason behind the fall of the Dales - the Exalted March against the Dales started because of the elves refusal to worship the Maker, starting with the missionaries, and becoming heated with the incursion of the templars. Simply because you, personally, dislike it doesn't mean that it's invalid.

Which we know is false, since we got records proving that the Exalted March weren't called before the Dalish had laid siege to Val Royaux. So basically the Dalish are just trying to victimize themselves, instead of manning up to the fact that they lost the war, and get on with their lives. 

You're openly conflating the involvement of other nations with the war between Orlais and the Chantry with the elves of the Dales.

Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste have a history of conquest that dates back to the inception of the Orlesian Empire, includes the conquest of Nevarra after the Third Blight, and continues into the attempts to invade (and occupation of) Ferelden. I don't see why you are so willing to dismiss the Dalish version of events. The Dalish claim that the war with Orlais and the Chantry started as a result of the elves' refusal to give up the worship of their gods, and since part of the terms of surrender involved the elves' giving up worship of their gods so that they could become Andrastians, I don't see why you think this is so far-fetched.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not one single source, it's the same version of events that the Dalish clans across Thedas trust as the reason behind the fall of the Dales - the Exalted March against the Dales started because of the elves refusal to worship the Maker, starting with the missionaries, and becoming heated with the incursion of the templars. Simply because you, personally, dislike it doesn't mean that it's invalid.

Which we know is false, since we got records proving that the Exalted March weren't called before the Dalish had laid siege to Val Royaux. So basically the Dalish are just trying to victimize themselves, instead of manning up to the fact that they lost the war, and get on with their lives. 

You're openly conflating the involvement of other nations with the war between Orlais and the Chantry with the elves of the Dales.

Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste have a history of conquest that dates back to the inception of the Orlesian Empire, includes the conquest of Nevarra after the Third Blight, and continues into the attempts to invade (and occupation of) Ferelden. I don't see why you are so willing to dismiss the Dalish version of events. The Dalish claim that the war with Orlais and the Chantry started as a result of the elves' refusal to give up the worship of their gods, and since part of the terms of surrender involved the elves' giving up worship of their gods so that they could become Andrastians, I don't see why you think this is so far-fetched.

The other nations didn't join the war until AFTER Val Royaux had been sacked, and an Exalted March had been called. And I dismiss the Dalishh version because it is obviously incorrect. There are numerous historical records which proves that the war started as a conflict between nations, and not a war of religions. It is true that the Elven worship of their pantheon had beena  source of friction between the two nations, and also true that the expelling of the missionaries will have caused friction, but it was NOT the reason for the Exalted march to be called.

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They don't hurt anyone (usually), but that was not my point. I was speaking of technicalities. No matter how you twist and turn it, they ARE encroaching and poaching on a soveriegn nation's lands. What harm comes of it is debatable, but again, that was never my point.

First of all are they breaking any laws?  Hunting doesn't appear to be against the law, fishing doesn't appear to be against the law, traveling around avoiding humans may be difficult, but not against the law.

The only law I can see them being accused of breaking is about harboring apostate mages, in which case there's an important matter of scale.  Is the Templar Order going to more conserned with apostate mages living in a big city like Denirum or a small town like Redcliffe where there's a concentrated population of people, or are they going to but more concern with some mage living in a caravel out in the middle of a woodland where the only people there are the Dalish?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm certain that the fact that the templars hunt their elven mages might play a part in the hostilities between humans and the Dalish.

 

They are in another nation's lands and they need to follow their laws. They don't so they get hunted.

Considering the Dalish elves' refusal to give up the worship of their gods, I don't see that being likely.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Orlesian version of events.

 

According to historical records more like. Instead of some mouth to mouth story from a campfire.

According to the Orlesian Empire, who has a history of conquering other nations. In fact, the Orlesian Empire started as a result of the city-state conquering its neighboring city-states in Exalted Marches lead by Kordillus Drakon, who became the first Emperor of Orlais.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are trying to survive - hunting to feed their families, living in seclusion from human society, trying to restore their past.

Twist and turn it all you like. The Dalish are breaking the laws of the countries they encroaching on, their intentions and reasons be damned. They are breaking the law. Sadly Thedas' general justice system is rather barbaric, and most punishment usually consist of toture and/or execution.

There's nothing to twist and turn about the Dalish trying to survive, with the loss of their homeland.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're openly conflating the involvement of other nations with the war between Orlais and the Chantry with the elves of the Dales.

Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste have a history of conquest that dates back to the inception of the Orlesian Empire, includes the conquest of Nevarra after the Third Blight, and continues into the attempts to invade (and occupation of) Ferelden. I don't see why you are so willing to dismiss the Dalish version of events. The Dalish claim that the war with Orlais and the Chantry started as a result of the elves' refusal to give up the worship of their gods, and since part of the terms of surrender involved the elves' giving up worship of their gods so that they could become Andrastians, I don't see why you think this is so far-fetched.

The other nations didn't join the war until AFTER Val Royaux had been sacked, and an Exalted March had been called. And I dismiss the Dalishh version because it is obviously incorrect. There are numerous historical records which proves that the war started as a conflict between nations, and not a war of religions. It is true that the Elven worship of their pantheon had beena  source of friction between the two nations, and also true that the expelling of the missionaries will have caused friction, but it was NOT the reason for the Exalted march to be called.

You don't know the Dalish version is incorrect.

Other nations got involved once the Dalish were clearly winning the war against Orlais and the Chantry, but Orlais and the Chantry were fighting the Dalish long before then, which is the entire point.