187 réponses à ce sujet

[MoldySpore]

First I'd like to say that I LOVE Mass Effect 3 as a whole. Everything except for the last 15-20 minutes I think is superior to ME1 and ME2 when looking at the gameplay improvements, and things such as that.

That said, I hated the endings too, but I just can't get behind either of these explainations that are floating around.

The indoc theory just seems like a way to explain away SOME of the issues with the current endings. It doesn't feel right to me. It's just creating an ending based on fixing the plot holes and the slap in the face feeling from having spent 3 games uniting the galaxy to have it not matter in the end. Plus the overall feeling of the endings, as they are, feel wrong. How can you feel good about any of the endings, even the supposed "best one" with the other negatives and plotholes that go along with the choices (censored that since this is in the non-spoilers forum, but people who have finished the game know what I'm talking about)?

And the Dark Matter scrapped ending seems to suffer from the same issue, in the end nothing you did matters and it comes down to A, B, or C, and NONE of the options could satisfy any of the different types of players (Paragon, Renegade, people somewhere inbetween).

If they are really going to FIX the ending, it needs to be completely redone, in my opinion, starting immediately after the scene with Anderson and Shepard (which I thought was great for most of it). Everything from that point on, in my mind, can be scrapped.

If I could get what I truly wanted, I'd want a TRUE Paragon ending, with no M. Night Shyamalan "twists" that features some variation of the following:

• This option would DESTROY the Reapers without some kind of non-Paragon side effect (such as the ones in the so-called "best ending" option, and the ones common to all the endings)
• Epic battle showing all the assets you've gained and how they factor into the final battle
• Shepard lives
• You WIN. Galaxy is saved! IF you saved ALL the races and got everyone to cooperate and had EMS that included all possible races, there should be some kind of bonus scene or SOMETHING for your efforts. (Even if this includes choices from ME1 or 2 that would need to have been picked to happen)
• Scenes from post-war wrap up, and future scenes of your crew and friends during peace time, shows you and your love interest (if survived, etc) together, possibly well into the future.
• Fate of galaxy far out in future based on Paragon choices.

Same goes for Renegade, and true Renegade option, that features some variation of:

• This would have the option of somehow reprogramming or changing the current mission of the Reapers, but Shepard keeps their control for humans, who then use them to dominate the galaxy (basically taking the Illusive Man option)
• Same epic battle as Paragon with different ending (Reapers gather on Earth and power down for use by humans
• Perhaps based on certain factors, Shepard could live or die based on previous choice or EMS.
• Future events of human's with control over reaper ships and tech, ruling the council, taking over galaxy operations. Basically continues naturally from ME2 if you chose to go the renegade path in ME1 and 2
• Fate of galaxy far out in future based on Renegade choices.

Then you can have a few other endings for the 50/50 Shepards, I LIKED the "green" ending at first the most out of all the endings presented to me at the end of the current game. But after I actually went through with it, it wasn't anything like I expected. That option seemed like a perfect compromise at first, but in the end it was just more of the same and even more confusing. A middle of the road kind of option I would like to see:

• Epic final battle, reapers losing.
• Crucible activates, but Shepard needs to do something to actually initiate it.
• Reapers somehow contact Shepard for negatiations, since they know they are about to be wiped out.
• Several options could branch from this ending, with more Paragon or Renegade choices being included, with a perfect middle of the road, grey option (such as removing their ability to indoctronate and banishing the Reapers back to their space, or doing somerthing to the Mass Relay's so they could never return, etc, something more along the lines of the "green" option from the original endings)
• These could easily be modified versions of the current endings, just changed slightly to be less "WTF" and plotholish.
• Still show future scenes, post-war, peace or war time shots, etc.
• Far out future based on choices made during final moments and state of galaxy up until that point (would include ME1 and 2 import decisions)

Obviously these are just what my own personal expectations of what I was going to see in the endings, and this might not even be on Bioware's radar as to what they are thinking of changing the ending to, because I'm sure they can't call all their voice actors back into the studio to do a proper ending now anyway. EA is probably already peeing their pants over them going back and changing the game after they should be moving onto the next project. Though, I do think everyone who played as a Paragon for 3 whole games expected to see something close to what I wanted to see. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but I expected there to at least be an OPTION for the "We win, yay everyone lives and is happy" ending, as well as a true Renegade ending for the Renegade players out there!

[ZombifiedJake]

^ Now that's something that I would have been happy with. Well written.

[Blavak]

TheNevincer wrote...

1. Modify the current ending into an indoctrination attempt/hallucination
2. Continue the fight on Earth against Harbinger
3. Give us a real ending where it's revealed the Reaper's function was to prevent the spread of Dark Energy
4. Give us choices that means a damn, and doesn't neccessarily include destruction of all Mass Relays
5. ?????
6. PROFIT! You've fixed the game and won back most of your fans.

I am afraid that actually this is what they planned to do with ME3 AND itll cost us ...

[FatalX7.0]

ZombifiedJake wrote...

Anyone care to elaborate or direct me to the dark eneregy ending?

http://www.ign.com/b...lers.250066288/


Personally, I thought Dark Energy was going to play a bigger part, since it is mentioned several times in Mass Effect 2, and is what caused Haestrom's star to age too quickly.


Dark Energy is a real thing, too.

[jojon2se]

MoldySpore wrote...
...because I'm sure they can't call all their voice actors back into the studio to do a proper ending now anyway. EA is probably already peeing their pants over them going back and changing the game after they should be moving onto the next project.

That is assuming that voice acting wasn't recorded, already, along with what is in the retail game.

[OdanUrr]

Shameless promotion of my final battle thread.

[Heimdall]

Neither, the Indoctrination Theory isn't really an ending, not to mention it removes what closure we have now, and the Dark Energy plot just feels like too distant a threat.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Personally my favorite reaper motivation theory always was the one from the first Mass Effect: getting new technologies by making organics create compatible technologies.

[Sovereign330]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Neither, the Indoctrination Theory isn't really an ending, not to mention it removes what closure we have now, and the Dark Energy plot just feels like too distant a threat.

Too distant a threat you say? Something "beyond our understadning" Something we "can not hope to comprehend"

[OdanUrr]

Sovereign330 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Neither, the Indoctrination Theory isn't really an ending, not to mention it removes what closure we have now, and the Dark Energy plot just feels like too distant a threat.

Too distant a threat you say? Something "beyond our understadning" Something we "can not hope to comprehend"

Dark energy would fit the profile. As it stands, Singularity is just too dumb. Maybe with some proper exposition that scene would've played out differently.

[TMA LIVE]

I definitely wouldn't want the Dark Energy ending, since I think that's also "Computer has insane and flawed logic". I mean seriously, Dark Energy is ruining the galaxy, and yet turning Humanity into a Reaper is going to fix that? That 5 other races or more continuing to use Mass Effect technology and Biotic powers isn't going to effect anything as long as humanity is gone? Because that's kind of stupid. No, the same problem is going to happen. You just delayed it. If you don't want the next species to kill the galaxy using Mass Effect technology, how about not allowing them to find said technology to have a jump start with. Or if you do want them to have a jump start, how about leaving a note about the galaxy killing problem that might happen. You know, so if they are going to be ignorant and use it anyways, they can at least research how to not destroy the galaxy, or make laws so they can control the amount of Dark Energy being used. Besides, that concept seems too bleak for me, nor do I like simply destroying the Reapers with a fleet.

[MoldySpore]

Blavak wrote...

I am afraid that actually this is what they planned to do with ME3 AND itll cost us ...

See, everyone is saying how they don't want to have to pay for the new endings or whatever Bioware comes up with.

Honestly, if it gets me what I want after the fact, I have no problem paying $5 or $10 to get the ending that I wanted.

Bioware made a game, they were in control of the endings. They ultimately made the decision to go with these botched endings. To them, I'm sure they thought they were giving us an amazing ending. And some people DO think the endings were good.

But if they are willing to add additional endings (especially if they are fully realized ones with voice actors, etc, coming back even though that seems unlikely) then I will gladly pay a little bit to get what I wanted. They are willing to do work outside of their original scope of work on ME3, and it only seems fair that we pay a little bit outside of our original scope of the cost of the game.

If they just give us some codex entries, no I won't pay. But if it is a FULL new couple of endings, you're damn right I'll pay for those.

[scomoletti]

This:

 

ERk314 wrote...

TheNevincer wrote...

1. Modify the current ending into an indoctrination attempt/hallucination 
2. Continue the fight on Earth against Harbinger 
3. Give us a real ending where it's revealed the Reaper's function was to prevent the spread of Dark Energy
4. Give us choices that means a damn, and doesn't neccessarily include destruction of all Mass Relays
5. ?????
6. PROFIT! You've fixed the game and won back most of your fans.

If only this were what they'd do.

 

And this:

SwobyJ wrote...

TheNevincer wrote...

The existence of the Indoc Theory (which renders what we got a non-ending) would most likely validate the whole Dark Energy thing as the Reaper's true agenda. There's not really anything to argue, it's apples and oranges.

This.. as it can be both. A few points:

-Indoc Theory is NOT an ending, but only a cliffhanger into free/paid DLC, which would reveal the true intentions of the Reapers and TIM, as well as hopefully show the true effects of choices made throughout the series.

-Citadel = fortress for protecting a town (often with religious connection, but so does much of Mass Effect)
-Crucible = test or trial
-The Citadel is known to be a trap, thus not a 'true' protection. What if the Crucible is not really a 'true' test, but rather more of an experiment to see which cycle is able to complete the plans (set forth by the reapers millenia ago?), organize the galaxy together, defy the Reapers themselves, and even overcome their greatest weapon (indoctrination)?
-As such, it would mean that this cycle, or more exactly, this humanity...or MORE exactly, Shepard, has proven that they are the necessary boost to solve the dark energy problem.

I really like it. I mean, Bioware doesn't even have to do this exactly, but I do like the idea of:

1)Shepard being gradually (but strongly resisting, though still fulfilling the Reapers' goals by gathering the galaxy together), and then rapidly undergoing the indoctrination process, and then succumbing to it (Control/Synthesis) or overcoming it (Destory), though with story for each option still. LIs and squadmates talking you down? Personally, I'd do a Synthesis run just to see Shepard save the galaxy, yet end as another Saren in the process!

2)The galaxy being a giant petri dish. The Reapers are 'beyond our understanding' in the same way that scientists are beyond the understanding of lab rats. However, we can still understand their motive and actions (just not their origins or their exact plan).

3)The synthetic/organic explanation being a ruse. There's too much that speaks against it to be otherwise.

Using indoc as a lead in to DE leaves the existing to stand as is. Less work for Bioware, opens the door to allow what the players want: closure, product as advertised, and returns us to the original story as Drew initially started which was continued (loosely) in ME2.

Assuming the entire ending from....perhaps the reaper guarding the 'teleport beam' and on was Indoc hallucination we now have an out from the destruction of the relays. 

If Shep lives we can play this several ways for the future as well..

• Indoctrinated Shep may eventually suffer the same fate as any Indoc..
• or does the destruction of the reapers render the effects (nanites, etc etc) inert allowing him to recover?
• Does he gain any insight into the reapers true purpose in preventing the DE demise of the galaxy?
• If so is this the lead in to ME4? Have humans shown we can recognize the danger and react as one to gather the galaxy and prevent this new end of days?

Also..while the reapers gathered their forces at earth.. It is not unreasonable to expect some were not there..ie: Thessia, Palaven, etc. So there are future battles to clean up the remnants of the reapers ( Pay attention here Bioware.. more DLC for you). The fleet at earth isnt finished. It's just finally reached momentum to attain victory. 

Assuming other dlc is released for (Omega, Illium, Thessia, Palaven, and so on) and your Shep lived ME3 could be left open after the finale as 2 was as well.

My final thought is this new end must be free. This is Biowares chance to retain my business. After that I would pay for the dlc of battles to retake Omega, Palaven, Thessia, etc etc etc. 

Just my 2 cents.

[jojon2se]

One thing I would like to see explored, at some point, is...

Ehmm, let me begin like this: I have been under the assumption that the "indoctrination field", around a reaper, is in actuality the communications "backbone", that keeps the nation within interconnected and "unified"; With the external indoctrination being a side effect, that comes about when you are brought inside the (variable) envelope of the field and your brain experience the same stimuli and probing as the reaper's own grey goo, with the addition of a directed suggestion, or two.

Should there be anything to this; I wonder how much autonomy there is thoughout the reaper's biological systems and whether there may even be any forms and patches of individuality.

Further on if-so: Is there any "overmind" at the source of the field (possibly what Harbinger had in mind for Shepard to act as template and raw material for, in the human reaper) and what would happen to the rest of the brainwashed-for-thousands of years nation, if that was removed?

[karek]

Akka le Vil wrote...

That's still a pretty retarded scenario.
Why would the Reaper need to genocide societies to find a solution ? Why couldn't just they culture-build themselve through DNA samples and analysis ? Why do they need to harvest people and not just grow a brain in a jar ?
I mean, seriously, we're talking about super-advanced aliens that can't manage such a simple thing ?

(and WTF about "running out of time", they spent millions years doing nothing in the void of space and they suddendly are pressed by time ?)

This is based on the assumptions that they're both doing nothing and that the point is DNA samples and not observing evolutionary entropy to predict when the working model ends/rate their progress/get more resources to help with whatever they're doing in the dark space.


Also, as it turns out, real Dark Energy is actually a threat to the real universe since we now know that because of Dark Energy the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate.

[Wikimajaraja]

Dark energy theory read.
So, Dark energy = Space magic?
Indoctrination, I said!

[SnakeSNMF]

Neither.


Dark energy isn't plausible at the very moment.

Indoctrination theory is just unpleasant, and I don't think Bioware would've made the main character of three games that when he's so big, plus, they would've probably made more clear notes that he was.

[DaJe]

Dark energy was planned from the start and would have made sense becasue of that. The worst thing you can do is create a franchise with an overarching plot and then try to change the plot last minute. But nobody would ever be so fooli....of nevermind.

[OdanUrr]

DaJe wrote...

Dark energy was planned from the start and would have made sense becasue of that. The worst thing you can do is create a franchise with an overarching plot and then try to change the plot last minute. But nobody would ever be so fooli....of nevermind.

As I understand it, it was Karpyshyn's intention to explain the Reapers' purpose through the dark matter ending, right?

[Favourite store on the CitadeI]

Indoctrination theory should have been planned. It makes an excellent idea for more missions

[sonoko]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Personally my favorite reaper motivation theory always was the one from the first Mass Effect: getting new technologies by making organics create compatible technologies.

This. 

The dark energy theme is left undeveloped (we got only a couple of vague hints in ME2). That's why I prefer the indoctrination theory. Reapers don't have any fancy galaxy-saving motivations, they just reap our technologies. Since they are machines that's their only way of advancing and evolving.

[Rooster8227]

Indoctrination, although it kinda left EVERYTHING unanswered. So hopefully a proper ending to add onto the current game to finish it

[xsdob]

OdanUrr wrote...

Sovereign330 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Neither, the Indoctrination Theory isn't really an ending, not to mention it removes what closure we have now, and the Dark Energy plot just feels like too distant a threat.

Too distant a threat you say? Something "beyond our understadning" Something we "can not hope to comprehend"

Dark energy would fit the profile. As it stands, Singularity is just too dumb. Maybe with some proper exposition that scene would've played out differently.

Does one star out of the whole galaxy really constitiute as a foreshadowing?

[Nauks]

Both?

Ever since I heard (and agreed) with indoc theory. I've been secretly hoping that the extended ending will at least make mention of Dark Energy. (if not the sole reason, atleast have it as a bi-product of the real reason for reaping, a reason we don't know yet)
Since the current ending is basically a cliffhanger anyways, there has to be something substantial to tie things up.
Might as well be Dark Energy, and also, having put this much foreshadowin and expectation toward it in the previous game, and then just let it die in ME3? too much of a dick move, then again...we've seen some of those already.

[Han Shot First]

Dark energy.

I'm not sure why the writers scrapped that when Drew moved on, as it works as a much better origin for the Reapers than the 'protect you from synthetics by killing you' angle.

I'm also not sure why the Indoctrination Theory has become so popular among many of those who hate the existing endings. To me, the reveal that Shepard is indoctrinated would be an even worse ending than the existing ones. Shepard losing is not an amazing twist. Indoc Theory only works if DLC expands on the endings and gives Shepard the ability to resist the indoc and defeat the Reapers.

Dark energy was planned from the start and would have made sense becasue of that. The worst thing you can do is create a franchise with an overarching plot and then try to change the plot last minute. But nobody would ever be so fooli....of nevermind.

I agree, and sadly it wasn't just dark energy where the writers reversed course at the last minute. Through three games the player was practically hit over the head with the fact that the Geth weren't evil, that they were the victims in the Morning War, and that all they wanted with the Quarians was peace. Additionally a great deal of time was spent on EDI's character development in ME2 and ME3, where she eventually became a person rather than a thing, that was willing to sacrifice herself if need be for the sake of the crew. For three games the writers had explored the idea of organics and synthetics being able to peacefully coexist, only to reverse course in the last five minutes of the game. It is a bizarre example of bad writing in a game series that for the most part, has had solid writing by video game standards.

If the writers wanted to make it so that organics and synthetics could never peacefully coexist, that should have been the theme for three games. 

Modifié par Han Shot First, 27 mars 2012 - 06:48 .