241 réponses à ce sujet

[Lanceare]

.

Modifié par Lanceare, 02 décembre 2012 - 07:13 .

[usmack5]

Don't forget that an ending change has literally been done in Fallout 3 already....though Fallout 3's endings didn't have half as many plot holes or disappointing aspects as ME3's endings do. Bethesda releasing ending-changing DLC AND a bunch of great new content reassured fans that their faith in Bethesda was well placed. Bioware must do this to restore the fan loyalty it once had, although it will take me a while to fully trust them again (if I ever). The difference is that Fallout 3's original ending was acceptable and Bethesda changed it ANYWAYS, while ME3's ending is a complete travesty and Bioware is having reservations on what to change...lame.

[Promchek]

look, in the end we will vote on it, with our money. I think they've heard enough about things we dislike and also things we do like.

As of games being art, sorry nothing is art before viewers/players/readers decide it is. I can draw a picture right now and proudly proclame it's art, but i bet most of you will think it's crap, and you would be right.

And the ending of ME3 is crap, it's not only because all those plot holes, the main reason it is not, because PLAYES told so.

Modifié par Promchek, 24 mars 2012 - 04:52 .

[Epiph1]

I just worked out what is really bothering me about the the artistic angle defense.

Monet, Mozart, Picasso, Austen, Dickens etc are all considered to be great artists not because they told us they were, but because the populace decreed it to be the case. "Great Art" isn't something you create and then tell people you made, it simply becomes and withstands the passage of time.

Arrogance is the lowest form of self-publicity Bioware.

[Skyblade012]

While we're at it, E. E. "Doc" Smith rewrote Triplanetary to fit it in with the Lensmen Chronicles mythos, taking a solid, stand-alone book, and making it a very fitting part of a much larger series (and one of the best sci-fi series of all time, especially now that the ending has knocked Mass Effect out of the running).

[lasertank]

Artistic Integrity is simply a convenient excuse for irresponsibility.

[Red Templar]

Bioware already changes their work retroactively if we're willing to pay for micro-transactions.

Heck, currently the last words you see in the mass effect franchise are "downloadable content".

So the "artistic integrity" ship was scuttled long before we reached the ME3 ending controversy.

[LPPrince]

If video games were art, publishers and developers would have no problem if their work didn't make them a single penny in profit.

Lets be honest- video games are a product, made to be sold for a profit.

In this case, the whole, "video games are art" argument gets flung out the window.

[BluKardinal]

So I just put up a post with a similar theme except I was using the example of Blade Runner (wish I had seen this as I will now be responsible for yet another redundant thread). Here is what I wrote in relevant part:

However, I do not at all understand why art should not be changed and a simple example should explain why. Blade Runner was one of the most influential films of the 1980s. While it has not achieved the same level of obvious cultural impact of some other science fiction films of the time (such as Star Wars or The Terminator) it had a profound effect on the visual and thematic styles of countless films, books, and yes video games that came after it. It was also changed many times over the years. There are three major versions of the film and four minor ones. The different cuts of Blade Runner are not examples of minor changes made to charge you more for the DVD, but are quite different films that create very different impacts on the audience. Notably, the original theatrical version released in 1982 had a happy ending that was removed from the 1992 Director’s Cut and the 2007 Final Cut.

Arguably, the evolution of Blade Runner is a case for giving more creative control to individual artists (one of the defining features of the subsequent cuts granting Ridley Scott more control) but I think that ultimately views things too narrowly. Movies and video games are not put together by one person but by entire teams of creative artists. The end result is the artistic expression of a group of people and not an individual. Blade Runner’s original team made some mistakes, including shoehorning in a happy ending that was thematically out of place with the rest of the film. That mistake was acknowledged, the team was reshuffled, and a different version was eventually released. Ridley Scott did not after all re-cut the film on his own with no input from anyone else. The point is that artists, whether working alone or in a larger group, can make mistakes and improve their work over time.

Here is the pithy TLDR version: Either art can change, or Blade Runner isn’t art. Take your pick.

[DreamTension]

Agree.
Um. Movies do this ALL THE TIME as well. Director's Cuts, Alternate endings, etc....

Blade Runner has multiple versions (ending the same, BUT themes are somehow changed...)

[AlienSpaceBats]

Skyblade012 wrote...

While we're at it, E. E. "Doc" Smith rewrote Triplanetary to fit it in with the Lensmen Chronicles mythos, taking a solid, stand-alone book, and making it a very fitting part of a much larger series (and one of the best sci-fi series of all time, especially now that the ending has knocked Mass Effect out of the running).

Kim Kinnison agrees!

[shepskisaac]

Ultimately, it will come down to whether the changes are for the better or not. Lucas did the same thing as Tolkien, yet he is hated for changes since most fans think changes in Star Wars Original Trilogy suck. Tolkien however, as you said, ain't hated for changes because they were for the better.

In a year, if changes to ME3 ending are well received and impose the game, no one will mind.

[Eivuwan]

Artistic integrity is just an excuse for not correcting your mistakes.

[Gexora]

OP and Sparatus won this thread

[CronoDragoon]

Eivuwan wrote...

Artistic integrity is just an excuse for not correcting your mistakes.

[CrasVox]

artistic integrity just does not fly. it is a baseless stance.

I said it elsewhere, if the message was so important, why disseminate it via a commercial product? This game was made and built to entertain. it is of course their intellectual product, so it is their right to do with it what they wish, but it is also my perrogative to decide I do not like what they did and not purchase anything they produce anymore. If they want my buisness in the future, they need to do right in this.

We are fortunate enough to live in a time where our video games do incorporate quite a significant amount of artistic merit. And it is fortunate for us that high artistic content is almost required for a game to have a great impact. Gone are the days where it is just a theme, and you make a side scrolling platform.

But they have changed the endings already. They re-wrote the whole thing based on the script leak. Thus there is no solid ground to stand on now to claim the endings cannot be corrected because it would violate the artistic integrity of the development staff, which already seemed to me to have developed ME3 with a significant lack thereof.

If it is about money, fine. Say that. It will be too expensive to produce and the cost/reward just makes it prohibitive. I would disagree, be very disappointed, but at least they would be talking with us on the level.

This artistic integrity nonsense is just a cover to hid behind, because they are afraid of what hit their image may take if the true motives behind their decision, what ever it may end up being, are made known and presented to the community at large in that transparent of a fashion.

[Nobrandminda]

Don't forget Charles Dickens. He rewrote the ending to Great Expectations because the first ending was too sad. Seriously, I'm not twisting the story to make it fit this situation. That really happened.

[eddieoctane]

OP, I've been saying the same thing for 2 weeks. I have infinitely more respect for Doyle and Tolkien than I do for the staff of BioWare anymore. The most annoying parts of this whole thing are that they brought this on themselves, and they can still fix it. But to do so would require approaching the fans, hat in hand, and admitting fault. Considering someone at BioWare thinks the game is art only because he said so, I can;t see that happening.

[h4wkeye1]

It's really simple. BioWare exists only because WE, the players, give OUR money for their products. If we stop doing that, they will close because they will earn no money at all. Every developer needs to realize that it's the players, the community, that brings food to their kids and money in their pockets. So they need to stop acting like changing an ending is a disaster and the end of the world and just freakin' do it. Many have done it. If they don't, it's simple. People, just stop buying their games, VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET and be SMART!

Edit: And please BioWare, don't insult our intelligence with that artistic integrity crap. Like one poster in the thread said, if you need to tell us that you are an artist, then you probably aren't.

Modifié par h4wkeye1, 24 mars 2012 - 05:12 .

[LadyofRivendell]

Real artists don't wear shoes.
What say you to that, BW?

Although, your examples aren't the best. Tolkien's changes came about for inconsistency, not so much as to change the story to make it better plot wise. Mostly things like lore, family trees, history, names, locations, etc.

Isn't there some sort of TV show from the 80s that went back and changed an entire season because the fans reacted badly to killing off a character? Dallas? Texas? Austin? Something like that? I recall it being mentioned before.

Also, the game Prince of Persia had a new Epilogue Ending released (granted, it was worse than the original ending).

[2484Stryker]

In the end, it comes down to EA/Bioware being willing or unwilling to commit the necessary resources to retain their core fans. CDProjectRed wants to develop & retain their core fans to earn profit. EA/Bioware wants to appeal to the masses & have a rotating group of "fans".

I'm still not convinced that Bioware won't do anything to fix this. But given EA's recent history, it might not be surprising if they didn't.

[Ender99]

It's pride that's keeping them from wanting to change the ending, no "artistic integrity". Pride, you know, one of those seven deadly sins. The most powerful abominations in DA:O.....

[benj919]

Do not forget the book "mass effect:deception" which is obviously not art as bioware announced they are fixing the plot-holes... hypocrites indeed