241 réponses à ce sujet

[Spectre197]

People keep talking about changing media and they say look at movies they dont change those hell how many "changes" has star wars been through.

[Lanceare]

Blade Runner is actually my favorite film. It's an interesting case because the studio didn't understand the film and one producer in-particular interfered with Ridley Scott. So now all these years later we have several different versions of the movie and the 'Final Cut' - Ridley's definitive vision, is AWESOME.

And @DreamTension: The ending to Blade Runner was changed. The ending in the theatrical version was something that the studio tacked on. Scott cut that crap out and now it has the ending he intended.

Ironically his ending to the movie leaves things a bit open ended and uncertain and is open to interpretation to a degree. But it makes sense, is properly foreshadowed and bottom line is well done and fits the film.

[cinderburster]

BluKardinal wrote...

Here is the pithy TLDR version: Either art can change, or Blade Runner isn’t art. Take your pick.

OR Sherlock Holmes OR The Hobbit OR Great Expectations OR CD Project Red's work OR Bethesda's work OR... the list goes on and on, and yet we're all told to sit down, shut up, and take it.

I see a discrepency here.

[LPPrince]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Eivuwan wrote...

Artistic integrity is just an excuse for not correcting your mistakes.

[Keltikone]

OP, those guys were HACKS. Bioware are ARTISTS.

You just don't get the ending.

[CroGamer002]

LPPrince wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Eivuwan wrote...

Artistic integrity is just an excuse for not correcting your mistakes.

[Lanceare]

LadyofRivendell wrote...

Real artists don't wear shoes.
What say you to that, BW?

Although, your examples aren't the best. Tolkien's changes came about for inconsistency, not so much as to change the story to make it better plot wise. Mostly things like lore, family trees, history, names, locations, etc.

Isn't there some sort of TV show from the 80s that went back and changed an entire season because the fans reacted badly to killing off a character? Dallas? Texas? Austin? Something like that? I recall it being mentioned before.

Also, the game Prince of Persia had a new Epilogue Ending released (granted, it was worse than the original ending).

I went with Tolkien because everyone knows he and his work. I think it's thematically appropriate because part of the major problem with the ending and some other snafu's in ME3 is inconsistency/plot holes.

[MustacheManatee]

Top notch OP, top notch.

[Laurcus]

Marvel and DC change things all the time if they make a mistake, or just want something to fit better. It's called a retcon, and they have no fear of doing it. Star Wars lore also relies heavily on retcons. Heck, it was pretty recent-ish that Lucas retconned the Clone Troopers and Jango Fett being Mandalorians.

BioWare shouldn't fear retcons. I consider BioWare to be great storytellers. The best stories from the best storytellers though are iterative. They change with each telling, to suit both the author and the audience. That's why I'm happy that BioWare is doing some kind of ending DLC. I want to encourage them though, to not fear changing the ending too much.

[Hobbyman]

Actually Tolkien changed the ending of the Lord of The Rings. In his original version, Sauron claims The One Ring from Frodo and plunges Middle-Earth into Shadow. This was probably a result of Tolkien's disappointment and pessimism concerning the World and the Wars he participated in. Only after having an intense argument with his publisher, did he decide to change the ending to a more optimistic and happy version.

[jb1983]

Sion1138 wrote...

Spectre197 wrote...

People keep talking about changing media and they say look at movies they dont change those hell how many "changes" has star wars been through.

You can't compare movies to this. We've been over the why of it many times already.

In some ways you can and in some ways you can't. 

Movies have the benefit of having focus groups. Thus, if the focus group hates something, the studio requires the artist to change that something.

Look at Dodgeball. It was supposed to end right after the Cobras won and the Average Joes lost. The focus group HATED that, so the, "Aha, your foot crossed the line!" part was added in.

This actually happens to almost every single movie we see. 

Games and books don't have the luxury of focus groups. So when the audience reacts negatively, things end up changed. 

Art is fluid, not absolute, so artistic integrity only works in conjunction with listening to your critics. 

[Sakanade]

Bump for support.

People need to get some common sense.

Why doesn't EAware see this?

[nitefyre410]

There Artistic Integrity defense has been shot of full of holes know it makes no sense. The more they use it the more it blows up in Bioware face. They need to stop hiding behind this and just come out and do what needs to be done.

[ZeroSum7]

lasertank wrote...

Artistic Integrity is simply a convenient excuse for irresponsibility.

This.

 And there is such a thing as bad art. I am an Illustration Major(only a freshman) in college. If i decide to be lazy, cut corners, not put any thought into my work, and just draw a straight line across my canvas without any explanation, then it will not be accepted, and I will probably recieve a bad grade. You can't really claim artistic integrity on that.

[Skyblade012]

Sion1138 wrote...

Spectre197 wrote...

People keep talking about changing media and they say look at movies they dont change those hell how many "changes" has star wars been through.

You can't compare movies to this. We've been over the why of it many times already.

Sure you can.

HIGHLANDER 2: THE QUICKENING

Yeah, I went there.  Let's get some crap that's actually on the level of the ME3 ending.

Just do a quick google search and see how many different versions of that movie exist.  Hell, my store doesn't even sell the original anymore, just the Renegade cut.

Modifié par Skyblade012, 24 mars 2012 - 05:26 .

[LPPrince]

Keltikone wrote...

OP, those guys were HACKS. Bioware are ARTISTS.

You just don't get the ending.

Sad thing is, I bet people would believe that.

[CavScout]

OP doesn't understand hypocrisy nor how to spell it.

[BadlyBrowned]

Never understood trying to justifying artistic integrity whilst also justifying day one DLC. Does not compute.

[Pericles Redstorm]

LPPrince wrote...

If video games were art, publishers and developers would have no problem if their work didn't make them a single penny in profit.

Lets be honest- video games are a product, made to be sold for a profit.

In this case, the whole, "video games are art" argument gets flung out the window.

This on so many levels! I belive art goes into making the game, but the final prduct itsself is not. Also would like to add to what you stated, If they were art then there would be no deadlines and nothing would be rushed.

Modifié par Pericles Redstorm, 24 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[Arik7]

Lanceare wrote...

J. R. R. Tolkien released several iterations of The Lord of the Rings in order to improve things, clarify and fix problems. He also went back and rewrote parts of The Hobbit years later in order to bring it in line with the Lord of the Rings (i.e. fix plot holes and provide foreshadowing for the LotR). The version of The Hobbit we have now is not the version that was originally published, and it's better for it.

Eight years after killing off Sherlock Holmes, Sir Aurthur Conan Doyle went back and retroactively un-killed him based on overwhelming fan feedback. Then he wrote 'The Hounds of the Baskervilles'. His work, and he, benefited greatly.

CD Project Red, the developer behind the amazing 'The Witcher' and 'The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings' (which were already excellent) have retroactively made major changes to both games; changed content, added content, changed and added dialog, changed and added cut-scenes - based on interaction with fans and their own artistic integrity and desire to make the best games possible.

In The Witcher 2 they have both added a new beginning to the game as well as changed/expanded the ending of the game, based upon fan feedback. And they've done it all at no cost to the player. If you bought the game, you get all updates to the game, all new content and DLC, for free.

As a result they have some really excellent games and have garnered a great deal of love from the community for having such integrity and love for the fans.

Fans and critics alike have praised CD Project Red for all of this. Yet over this issue with Bioware and Mass Effect 3 people do a 180 and claim that if they fix the problems with the very unworthy ending to ME3, they are somehow violating some 'artistic integrity'.

False. Hypocrites.

Mass Effect could be a masterpiece. Instead it is a very good series with a terrible ending. The right thing to do, for the integrity and legacy of the series and for the fans is to redo the ending of ME3 as well as fix a couple of other missteps in the game (the Rachni being present no matter what you do, Tali not getting a proper reveal, etc.).

After all, Bioware did this for the Mass Effect novel - Mass Effect: Deception. Or maybe they should have just left it full of plot holes and inconsistencies...

This. 100%

[OchreJelly]

Slight tangent but related...

I think BioWare could learn a lot from CCP (Eve Online) and their fan oriented events, contests, interactions, blogs, etc. And CDProjekt as already mentioned.

This doesn't mean opening the floodgates to all the terrible fan ideas, but it does mean being more accessible and open to fans.

New developer studios seem to get that fan feedback can be hugely beneficial (during development or retroactively afterwards.) Older ones appear to have a hard time adapting to true fan interaction and response.

Now, BioWare as a whole has long been open to fan ideas and feedback, stretching back into their early days... but they are of the 'distant' type.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 24 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[GigaTheToast]

This "artistic integrity" debate is a bit like Cerberus in ME3, distracting us from the real issue in hopes to divide us.

It's bull crap, everyone knows it's bull crap, but if people yell loud enough it can still draw attention.