241 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

Rockpopple wrote...

What is an s/s romance?

Same sex.

[Heather Cline]

rock *giggles*

[Rockpopple]

@LLPrince - lol. I'd love to go into it further but it's super off-topic and I don't want this thread closed. But yeah, he's a hack. lol.

[syroz]

Heather Cline wrote...

syroz if they had female lead options in their game and also allowed s/s romances i'd agree whole heartedly with CD project being the new bioware. Alas they only have a male protagonist and no s/s romance options.

Its different, they dont hav a custom hero. U cant choose face or gender. Its ok for me if the hero is charismatic. And there is kind of romance in witcher 2 (even if its really not essential for me).

edit: s/s romance omfg i just noticed. BE CAREFUL OF WHAT U WANT WITH GERALT

Modifié par syroz, 24 mars 2012 - 06:19 .

[spartan5127]

If they come out with this integrity bull, then they are saying that they think they have more integrity than Tolkien. That is offensive.

[Sereaph502]

Really, the only reason people say, "Oh, you can't change the ending!" is because they can't be bothered to give reasons why they think the ending isn't filled with plot holes, doesn't provide closure, etc. All they can really say is, "I don't agree with you and your wrong because of it."

[DJBare]

Sparatus wrote...For some bizarre reason, some people think the endings are "deep"

Some do because they believe it, others because they cannot accept Bioware dropped the ball, but neither of them can explain what they mean or they say things like "If you don't get it, then your not smart enough"; I've been told by friends and family that I'm too deep at times, but obviously not deep enough to get the ending of this story.

[Ginkasa]

Lanceare wrote...

False. Hypocrites.

Or it could be different people with different opinions.  Just because you label the masses as one entity doesn't mean they are.

[CavScout]

Sereaph502 wrote...

Really, the only reason people say, "Oh, you can't change the ending!"...

This why folks like you, and others in this thread, can't be taken seriously. Artistic integrity has never been about not changing an artists vision its always been about who changes it.

[DaringMoosejaw]

CD Projekt is a great company, but unfortunately I goddamned hate The Witcher. I really wish they'd go with some other IP.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

What's going on is this stand on video games as "art" rather than entertainment due to some legalities and court rulings for the purpose to get some politicians off the backs of companies for content and rating purposes. So the companies are holding the line of "video games are art" rather than a consumer product. In reality the plots are about like comic books at best.

It's a form of art, but it's commercial art, not fine art. Please stop comparing video games to Da Vinci and Rembrandt -- that completely discredits anyone's argument.

I blame lawyers for the current situation.

What we're seeing right now is a lot of posturing. And get this, my friend with the 250,000 achievement points after her 2nd playthrough told me the ME3 ending absolutely sucks. She's seen some really crappy endings to games, and she admitted it really sucked.

[Heather Cline]

syroz i want s/s romance options for my female toons *nods* so tired of the heterosexual toons. s/s is my cup of tea but for me it's f/f. i support m/m for those that want it though.

daring yeah... i can't even play the game itself because it's a male only protagonist. so tired of those games.

[movieguyabw]

scyphozoa wrote...

I don't think we need to look any further than the Mass Effect Deception novel. It was found to be flawed and contradictory to the ME lore and as such, it is being changed. The same has to happen with the ending of ME3. It is flawed and needs to be changed and fixed.

You know, I completely forgot about that...  Why hasn't anyone brought this up before when people have talked about "artistic integrity" and such?   How can Bioware tought not changing the endings, when they're changing this novel?

[ace6633]

Sereaph502 wrote...

Really, the only reason people say, "Oh, you can't change the ending!" is because they can't be bothered to give reasons why they think the ending isn't filled with plot holes, doesn't provide closure, etc. All they can really say is, "I don't agree with you and your wrong because of it."

or they haven't played the game....like 79% of the people I've encountered against bioware changing it...

[ConradsLaces]

Hey - don't forget CBS!
They canceled Jericho, and the fans went bonkers... mailed a couple tons of peanuts to CBS studios, and got another half season. and a little bit better ending.

[Rockpopple]

Video games used to be products. Simple commodities. Sold, directed and manipulated in order to produce the most profit.

Then they became art. When people, gamers, wanted it to be art. They wanted games to be taken more seriously and compared to works of art like the best movies out there, because they were evolving such a rich and complex narrative.

Now it seems those same gamers - at least around here - want to turn video games back into a commodity. A simple product with no artistic value, to be manipulated and created for the purpose of making money, because that's what they want.

It's kinda sad. I just hope the industry doesn't take a step back because of this. Whether or not the endings are changed - and I hope in some manner they are, I hope video games continue to be considered art.

[DentedHalo]

I think the point here is the precedent that changing the ending sets (those making that point ignore the Ops list of other such projects but why let the truth get in the way of a good rant eh Colin Moriarty)... lets not kid ourselves, IF Bioware does change then ending based on our comments this will have massive ramifications for gaming in the future. Whist games changes have been done before, the voices have never been this loud before and the companies involved have acted swiftly to quieten the storm... in this case, the outcry has been huge and Bioware have acted so slowly that they have been unable to stop this before it became a debate held right in the middle of all the public eye (news articles by mainstream broadcasters like the BBC show this perfectly). The problem for Bioware is that they cannot now change the ending without it being a big deal... if they had acted quickly enough they could have agreed to change the ending before this became the issue it is today without having to admit defeat in such a public way.

As I said, there will be consequences for the whole games industry if Bioware changes the ending but these changes can and should be for the good of the community. Some say this will stop developers taking risks... rubbish... if they played safe all the time they wouldn’t make money... what it will do is ensure that they think very carefully about what they are doing and, hopefully, interact with their target audience to allow for bad sections to be edited before release. If handled correctly, this could be the best thing to happen to gaming... just imagine what BSN would look like today if Bioware had consulted before they released ME3 and the final release had the kind of perfect ending we know Bioware is capable of... its in the developers best interests to interact with us more in the development stages and this movement has the ability to make that happen.

Of course, they could choose to stand their ground if they feel the consequences to them as a developer are too high... I personally think that is a mistake and Bioware will suffer as a result... they have a chance to really endear themselves to customers and fans right now by saying, “right, we got it wrong but, we’ll fix it”.

[Heather Cline]

Rock if you look at how Bioware screwed the fans of the series with the way they ended ME3 and the Ad/PR campaign for the game itself. They sold it as a commodity/product in the first place. Fact is Bioware was the one who started this, not us.

[Rockpopple]

@Heather Cline, I disagree. Maybe I should clarify my own statements: I think games are art, but they're obviously still a product. It's a matter of degrees.

I don't think that BioWare made the endings as they are out of some financial decision.... I mean that's a really, really cynical way of looking at it. lol. You may be right! It could have been a ploy from the very start in order to sell DLC. In which case, it would be the worst thing I've seen in the gaming industry... but I don't think that's the case.

I just think they screwed up. Plain and simple. And asking that they fix their screw-up is a reasonable request. Hell, I would do it too if I was upset as y'all.

It just makes me uncomfortable how people are mocking the concept of games as art now because someone used the words "artistic integrity". I'm just hoping it doesn't set a dangerous precedent for people not considering games as mostly artwork anymore.

[Fruxie]

OP, this was a lot of good information. Thank you.

[DJBare]

Rockpopple wrote...Then they became art. When people, gamers, wanted it to be art. They wanted games to be taken more seriously and compared to works of art like the best movies out there, because they were evolving such a rich and complex narrative.

Now it seems those same gamers - at least around here - want to turn video games back into a commodity. A simple product with no artistic value, to be manipulated and created for the purpose of making money, because that's what they want.

Maybe this would not have happened if the gaming companies had not decided to use art as a defence for their mistakes, but if they cannot accept critique for their art, then they have a problem,
Though myself I'm still having great difficulty in seeing art in the end of this game, so I'm unable to critique the "art", but people would have to be blind not to see the gaping plot holes and an ending that practically goes against everything that this series was built on.

Modifié par DJBare, 24 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[Zkyire]

Heather Cline wrote...

syroz i want s/s romance options for my female toons *nods* so tired of the heterosexual toons. s/s is my cup of tea but for me it's f/f. i support m/m for those that want it though.

daring yeah... i can't even play the game itself because it's a male only protagonist. so tired of those games.

You can't play the game because the protagonist is male?

I guess I'll tell every male fan of Tomb Raider to throw their copies out.

[Heather Cline]

Rock I'm a graphic designer. I make a logo for your company. That logo is considered art you can come back to me and ask me to change things to make it more in line with what you want it to look like. I do that and you are happy. You come back to me for more work done exclusively for you. Any work I do for you you have an exclusive right to since it is done for your company. That is art.

Now if I were to make your logo for your company then go and sell your logo to every other company out there only changing the name it is no longer considered art because I'm selling it to hundreds of different people. It has some art in it because it was created in a program like photoshop or illustrator. It has since become a product because I'm selling it to the masses.

That's the difference. Selling one item to one person is art. Selling one item to the masses makes it a product.

For instance someone in this day and age builds a one of a kind vacuum cleaner and there is nothing else like it nor will there ever be. It is sold to a art collector and it sits in their house to be admired.

Now if I took that one of a kind vacuum cleaner and made thousands like it and sold it to the masses like any other vacuum cleaner, it ceases to be art and is now a commodity and product.

That is the point I am getting across. Video games have artwork in them, that I agree upon. However they cease to be strictly art when sold to more than one person. They become a commodity and a product.

[Heather Cline]

zkyire i'm a female who likes women. i've played several games in the past with male protagonists because there was no option to play as a female protagonist. Why would I take a step backwards and play male only protagonist games if I can have my female protagonist and s/s romance options too?