241 réponses à ce sujet

[MOELANDER]

This, oh so very much this, OP!
Spoke from my heart!

[Rockpopple]

@DJBare, I'm still waiting for an example of BioWare using artistic integrity as a defense for their mistakes. I think people need to re-read and think about Dr. Ray's statement, because that's not what I got from it at all.

I also think people need to have greater context as to what it means to be art. Calling something art doesn't mean calling something Rembrandt, or Da Vinci, or Shakespeare.

I think either video games are an artistic medium, or they're not. My point is that most gamers were fighting for the former to be recognized. Now it seems a lot of gamers around here are fighting for the latter to be the truth. Which saddens me. It just does, sorry.

[Hunter of Deathclaws and Tanks]

Good post, OP.

[Zkyire]

Heather Cline wrote...

zkyire i'm a female who likes women. i've played several games in the past with male protagonists because there was no option to play as a female protagonist. Why would I take a step backwards and play male only protagonist games if I can have my female protagonist and s/s romance options too?

The problem is that you think of it as a step backwards.

What about all the tv shows where the main character is a man? What about books where the main character is a man?

You're deliberately ignoring potentially great forms of entertainment simply because the main character isn't your gender.

THAT is what's taking a step backward.

[Phearmonger]

DJBare wrote...

Sparatus wrote...For some bizarre reason, some people think the endings are "deep"

Some do because they believe it, others because they cannot accept Bioware dropped the ball, but neither of them can explain what they mean or they say things like "If you don't get it, then your not smart enough"; I've been told by friends and family that I'm too deep at times, but obviously not deep enough to get the ending of this story.

It's because you're not deep in the right thing: sh*t

[Iwillbeback]

LadyofRivendell wrote...

Real artists don't wear shoes.
What say you to that, BW?

Although, your examples aren't the best. Tolkien's changes came about for inconsistency, not so much as to change the story to make it better plot wise. Mostly things like lore, family trees, history, names, locations, etc.

Isn't there some sort of TV show from the 80s that went back and changed an entire season because the fans reacted badly to killing off a character? Dallas? Texas? Austin? Something like that? I recall it being mentioned before.

Also, the game Prince of Persia had a new Epilogue Ending released (granted, it was worse than the original ending).

The story is inconsistant.
Everything from the first two games was based on a different plot, the human Reaper was based on a different plot.
The human reaper was pointless in the plot path Mass effect 3 took.
It was a mystery as to why they were building it, turns out it was for nothing because it doesn't even matter.

ME1 and ME2 are barely even related to ME3.
The only thing they share is the characters.

Modifié par Iwillbeback, 24 mars 2012 - 06:50 .

[Yubz]

Agreed, this whole "Uhhh but it's my artistic vision" never seemed a valid argument to me.
It also sounds extremely arrogant. If this "art" was actually worth preserving then we wouldn't be asking for a change to begin with.

[Heather Cline]

zkyire actually many tv shows these days aren't male protagonist anymore. Sanctuary, Terminator The Sarah Connor Chronicles, Dollhouse, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Lost Girl, Stargate Atlantis, Stargate Universe...

These are just a couple of tv shows that aren't male centric protagonists. There are many female leads or the female leads are right up there alongside the male leads.

So no your argument has no basis in fact anymore.

[Rockpopple]

Heather Cline wrote...

Rock I'm a graphic designer. I make a logo for your company. That logo is considered art you can come back to me and ask me to change things to make it more in line with what you want it to look like. I do that and you are happy. You come back to me for more work done exclusively for you. Any work I do for you you have an exclusive right to since it is done for your company. That is art.

Now if I were to make your logo for your company then go and sell your logo to every other company out there only changing the name it is no longer considered art because I'm selling it to hundreds of different people. It has some art in it because it was created in a program like photoshop or illustrator. It has since become a product because I'm selling it to the masses.

That's the difference. Selling one item to one person is art. Selling one item to the masses makes it a product.

For instance someone in this day and age builds a one of a kind vacuum cleaner and there is nothing else like it nor will there ever be. It is sold to a art collector and it sits in their house to be admired.

Now if I took that one of a kind vacuum cleaner and made thousands like it and sold it to the masses like any other vacuum cleaner, it ceases to be art and is now a commodity and product.

That is the point I am getting across. Video games have artwork in them, that I agree upon. However they cease to be strictly art when sold to more than one person. They become a commodity and a product.

Well Heather, I'm also a graphic designer - well animator, but I've done graphic design work, so we have that in common. lol. And I'm aware of the concept of commissioned work. I think that doesn't really apply here. You would agree with me that even when dealing with ONE client, their ideas can be as multiple and varied as plankton in the Ocean. All over the place, right? So trying to figure out what they want requires a lot of back and forth, and it only really ends when the client is satisfied.

Not the same here, in the case of Mass Effect, because there are millions of clients, all with their own individual ideas of what is acceptable and what isn't. It's impossible to be able to accomodate all of their requests. I thnk the problem with ME3 is that the way it was marketed they made it seem like they could. That was a mistake.

But that doesn't stop Mass Effect from being art. Either video games are art or they're not. Even the best video games are sold and marketed to millions of people. So does that fact alone invalidate them from being art? That's a cold way of thinking about things.

Also, simply being art isn't an excuse to go back and change things. If that were true, games would never release patches, or extra content. I don't think anyone, including BioWare, is saying that it's wrong to change the endings because of artistic integrity. Honestly, I think it'd be wrong for BioWare to change the ending if they didn't want to. If they saw a problem with the ending, agreed with some fans, and decided to change it on their own terms, they should. That has little to do with the whole artistic integrity scerfuffle.

I invite you to watch a little internet show called Extra Creditz. It's a great show that talks about video games as a growing, evolving, maturing medium. I don't know what they would think about the ME3 ending controversy, but I think they'd be disturbed by people wanting games to no longer be considered art, but just a cold product. 

[WilliamDracul88]

BluKardinal wrote...

Here is the pithy TLDR version: Either art can change, or Blade Runner isn’t art. Take your pick.

I have the pack with all the versions and the directors commentaries, and I personally love the most hated version in it's directors opinion. But he says something in the lines of "It's not my best choice, but I know it have a lot of fans, so enjoy it".

And that's all. He doesn't commit sepukku for "breaking his artistic integrity" at all. He is not even crying.

[Heather Cline]

Rock I still disagree that video games are exclusively art. Maybe a medium between art and product but not exclusively art. If you can patch a video game, if you can add or change content to a video game then it isn't exclusively art and you and I both know that.

The demand to get what was advertised isn't wrong. It's actually very correct in a capitalist economy and that is what we have here a capitalist economy. The game was marketed as a product and that I doubt even you can deny. It wasn't marketed as art and the defense Bioware and the supporters of Bioware are using is a load of bunk. If they had marketed the game as art I could defend their views even if I disagreed with it. However they marketed the game as a product and made promises they failed to keep.

Thus Mass Effect 3 as it was marketed is a product at this point in time. Too late to put the genie back into the bottle as the saying goes.

Modifié par Heather Cline, 24 mars 2012 - 06:57 .

[spacehamsterZH]

OP raises a good point - if anyone has any faith in the ME trilogy eventually being considered a classic, this shouldn't be a problem. If they change the ending this summer, eventually nobody will remember the original ending anymore, same as with LotR, Sherlock Holmes and others.

[Zkyire]

Heather Cline wrote...

zkyire actually many tv shows these days aren't male protagonist anymore. Sanctuary, Terminator The Sarah Connor Chronicles, Dollhouse, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Lost Girl, Stargate Atlantis, Stargate Universe...

These are just a couple of tv shows that aren't male centric protagonists. There are many female leads or the female leads are right up there alongside the male leads.

So no your argument has no basis in fact anymore.

My argument is asking why YOU are ignoring potentially great forms of entertainment based on the gender of the protagonist.

I never said "shows with male protagonists are better than shows with female protagonists".

Seriously, what? o.O

[gmboy902]

Fallout 3. Plus Todd Howard openly declared that the ending was a mistake.

I just feel that with all their money and popularity through EA and their past works, BioWare kind of feels like they couldn't make a mistake. Being that proud isn't good business practice. Ask any RPG fan about the Witcher 2 and they'll give you good reviews. Same with Fallout 3. Once BioWare realizes that it's better to listen to your fans than continue to stick with a failed ending, everyone will be happier.

[Martian Jim]

Great post OP, I've  re-posted this on the Mass Effect Facebook pages.
Someone should read this out to the panel at PAX in April

Modifié par Martian Jim, 24 mars 2012 - 07:01 .

[Rockpopple]

@Heather Cline, well I never said video games were exclusively art either. In fact, I said being art doesn't mean they can't make changes. Like someone else pointed out, Blade Runner was changed, and it's still art.

Thing is, while I see SOME supporters of BioWare using the "artistic integrity" defense, I've never seen BioWare use it in the endings context. How can they use something as a defense against changing the endings when they've already said they're going to change or edit the endings?

So while I think people are justified in being angry, I think a lot of people are being too unfair to BioWare - putting words in their mouths and thoughts in their heads

But that's just my opinion. There isn't any point going back and forth over, since I doubt it's gonna change for either of us.

[xxskyshadowxx]

The whole "Artitic integrity" argument doesn't fly with me when it comes to the ME3 ending.

Ion Storm already wrote the same ending and used it in a different game years and years ago. The fact that Bioware is even trying to claim that the ending is their original work rather than an homage to someone else's work blows the whole "integrity" part of the argument out of the water.

[Heather Cline]

Zkyire, No you pointed out all the shows with male protagonists. You never asked me anything about why I was ignoring shows with male protagonists. Two completely different subjects.

As for shows with male protagonists well let me put it this way. "Guy is hero, girl comes along, girl becomes love interest, guy gets girl." Same old same old. Why would I want to watch that over and over and over again?

I'd rather watch "Girl is hero, no guy or girl love interest, girl saves the day, girl goes on to save day over and over again." or "Girl is hero, guy comes along, guy becomes love interest, love blossoms, love eventually is not feasible so they break up but remain friends, guy leaves, girl goes on with life doing heroic stuff." or "Girl is hero, another girl comes along, new girl becomes love interest, love blossoms, girl hero and new girl continue to love one another while girl hero continues to save the day."

Those are things I'm interested these days. Male protagonists have been the center of television, video games, and books for so long it's gotten tiring for me and boring. Not to say that there aren't many great shows out there with male protagonists but i'm tired of seeing them all the time.

that's all.

Modifié par Heather Cline, 24 mars 2012 - 07:06 .

[Tocquevillain]

Zkyire wrote...

Heather Cline wrote...

zkyire i'm a female who likes women. i've played several games in the past with male protagonists because there was no option to play as a female protagonist. Why would I take a step backwards and play male only protagonist games if I can have my female protagonist and s/s romance options too?

The problem is that you think of it as a step backwards.

What about all the tv shows where the main character is a man? What about books where the main character is a man?

You're deliberately ignoring potentially great forms of entertainment simply because the main character isn't your gender.

THAT is what's taking a step backward.

She didn't say that at all. She just said she's not playing games with male protagonists.

I'm a guy, I like women, my Shep is hot, she's capable, she's driven, she's badass, and I can have a romance with Liara. That's a perfect space fantasy for me, that's why I do it.

BluKardinal wrote...

Here is the pithy TLDR version: Either art can change, or Blade Runner isn’t art. Take your pick.

That's a poor argument. Blade Runner was changed because the people who financed the film got creative control and forced those changes. Ridley Scott finally got to do things his way with the Final Cut, twenty years later. And don't say fans finance projects, you don't, unless it's something like Kickstarter for Wasteland 2.


And if I can comment on the OP, it takes one man only his time to make changes to a novel. It would take so much more than time for Bioware to do the same to a videogame.

Modifié par Tocquevillain, 24 mars 2012 - 07:04 .

[ilComico]

great post!

[Heather Cline]

Rock actually there was a defense by Casey Hudson, the supporters of Bioware like IGN and even Mac Walters used artistic integrity as well as the game is art defense to not change the endings. It was only because such a fan uproar about it did they finally capitulate. So though you didn't see it, there are posts quoting that all over the forums and on forbes' website the business magazine place.

[xxskyshadowxx]

Zkyire wrote...

Heather Cline wrote...

zkyire i'm a female who likes women. i've played several games in the past with male protagonists because there was no option to play as a female protagonist. Why would I take a step backwards and play male only protagonist games if I can have my female protagonist and s/s romance options too?

The problem is that you think of it as a step backwards.

What about all the tv shows where the main character is a man? What about books where the main character is a man?

You're deliberately ignoring potentially great forms of entertainment simply because the main character isn't your gender.

THAT is what's taking a step backward.

You aren't interacting with the TV shows, nor are you actually invested in them. That's the difference.

[InfiniteDemise]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Heather Cline wrote...

zkyire i'm a female who likes women. i've played several games in the past with male protagonists because there was no option to play as a female protagonist. Why would I take a step backwards and play male only protagonist games if I can have my female protagonist and s/s romance options too?

The problem is that you think of it as a step backwards.

What about all the tv shows where the main character is a man? What about books where the main character is a man?

You're deliberately ignoring potentially great forms of entertainment simply because the main character isn't your gender.

THAT is what's taking a step backward.

You aren't interacting with the TV shows, nor are you actually invested in them. That's the difference.

You're delusional if you think people don't become invested with TV shows.

[CptSpectacu1ar]

I'll pass on all DLC for this one and wait for the directors cut that puts the ending the writers clearly wanted... because I find it hard to believe most involved were pleased with it even before the backlash. Please, directors cut, PLEASE .