241 réponses à ce sujet

[Vorodill]

CD Projekt Red.... ah, awesome guys! A studio that came out of nowhere with a great game (Witcher 1). I was so suprised to see enhanced edition given for FREE to the customers. I was like : "Oh my god, that's great!".

Same thing with The Witcher 2. Just to support the team, I'll buy The Witcher 2 on Xbox 360. They deserve it. Go CDPR!

You can change the ending Bioware! That's what artists do! Or at least, tell us you screwed up...

Modifié par Vorodill, 24 mars 2012 - 08:04 .

[Dragoonlordz]

LPPrince wrote...

DarkWyccan wrote...

I love CD Projekt Red, these guys really listen to customers and ensure that their product is the best it can be. And it shows, the Witcher 2 2.0 is amazing.

I really do hope it sells incredibly well on 360 this April.

April 17th to be exact.

I'm sure it will I did my part I ordered Dark Edition for friend because I already own a copy on PC.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 24 mars 2012 - 08:07 .

[Theobuomai]

What I find incompatible is this implied connection with their "artistic choices" to ending the game with "mystery." Problem is, this "artistic choice" is supposed to be the satisfying means of fulfilling their promises.....but in doing so, nothing has been given, completed, nor finally, fulfilled.

It would be like a father promising his child a gift on his birthday.  The child looks forward to the fulfillment of that promise, i.e., getting the gift. And when the kid's birthday finally comes, the paper is ripped off, the box opened......and its empty.  The father smiles at his "creative choice" and says, "It's whatever you want it to be."

As much as the father believes himself to have thought of something unique and creative, the child knows the simple truth: he got nothing. The promised gift has yet to be given.  So the child is left only to his imagination, which finally never actually fulfills his father's promise, that is to say, his imagination can never actually give him the gift.  The child is left to a never ending "perhaps it could be this, or this, or that."  But no matter what the kid imagines, the box will remain empty in mystery, leaving the child in an eternal rut where the promise is waiting to be completed yet never actually is completed.....which is nothing but an eternal hell.

As a fan, I cannot give myself the ending, the closure, nor fulfill to myself the promises Bioware has made. To do so leaves me in nothing but an eternal "perhaps," an eternal "what if," which finally gives me nothing nor fulfills anything at all. 

You, Bioware, must give that to me outside of myself since it is you who made the promise. I, for one, give you the benefit of the doubt.  You've only done good by my book, and I'm hoping that these "artistic choices" include some plan you've had all along like the "Indoctrination" theory, where we will see ME3 fulfilled in the continued story & ending through DLC.

Until then, we fans remain only in "perhaps"....

[Lumenadducere]

Sparatus wrote...

dbl219 wrote...

I absolutely adore CD Projekt Red. Now that's a class act.

It's also worth noting that another prominent writer who made changes to his well-known series is Stephen King with The Dark Tower. The most recent version of the first book, The Gunslinger, has substantially revised text. It was updated in 2003, whereas the original book was released in 1982.

Ironically, the Dark Tower also has an incredibly unsatisfying ending. But at least King acknowledged it was.

Not only that, but he actually tried to dissuade readers from continuing onto the ending.  I don't know whether it was effective or sensical at all, but it was interesting.  

One of the many reasons Marauder Shields is a hero.

[Promchek]

jimbo32 wrote...

I agree. And where was their artistic integrity when EA demanded that they include Multiplayer?

"Artistic Integrity" is just more PR BS, and people are actually falling for it.

ofc it is, they've thrown their artistic integrity out of the window the moment they decided to put such twist into last 5 minutes out of roughy 100 h, where the first 99 h 55 mins is one game and last 5 mins is something different.

[InfiniteDemise]

Theobuomai wrote...

What I find incompatible is this implied connection with their "artistic choices" to ending the game with "mystery." Problem is, this "artistic choice" is supposed to be the satisfying means of fulfilling their promises.....but in doing so, nothing has been given, completed, nor finally, fulfilled.

It would be like a father promising his child a gift on his birthday.  The child looks forward to the fulfillment of that promise, i.e., getting the gift. And when the kid's birthday finally comes, the paper is ripped off, the box opened......and its empty.  The father smiles at his "creative choice" and says, "It's whatever you want it to be."

As much as the father believes himself to have thought of something unique and creative, the child knows the simple truth: he got nothing. The promised gift has yet to be given.  So the child is left only to his imagination, which finally never actually fulfills his father's promise, that is to say, his imagination can never actually give him the gift.  The child is left to a never ending "perhaps it could be this, or this, or that."  But no matter what the kid imagines, the box will remain empty in mystery, leaving the child in an eternal rut where the promise is waiting to be completed yet never actually is completed.....which is nothing but an eternal hell.

As a fan, I cannot give myself the ending, the closure, nor fulfill to myself the promises Bioware has made. To do so leaves me in nothing but an eternal "perhaps," an eternal "what if," which finally gives me nothing nor fulfills anything at all. 

You, Bioware, must give that to me outside of myself since it is you who made the promise. I, for one, give you the benefit of the doubt.  You've only done good by my book, and I'm hoping that these "artistic choices" include some plan you've had all along like the "Indoctrination" theory, where we will see ME3 fulfilled in the continued story & ending through DLC.

Until then, we fans remain only in "perhaps"....

Very insightful post.

[Lanceare]

Heather Cline wrote...

zkyire i'm a female who likes women. i've played several games in the past with male protagonists because there was no option to play as a female protagonist. Why would I take a step backwards and play male only protagonist games if I can have my female protagonist and s/s romance options too?

If you are referencing The Witcher: Because it's an amazing series made by great developers based on a really good series of books. 

[Vorodill]

Stephen King, you are a true artist. You own up to your mistakes and change what needs to be changed.

Bioware, try to do like him. And EA... let the writers speak?

[Grasich]

OP your post is way too full of truth and logic, what are you doing on BSN?

In all seriousness, I agree completely. I can't personally think of a situation like what we have with ME3 where listening to the fans ended up hurting the company or setting any sort of "dangerous precedent". If anything, having them KEEP the ending as is would set a worse precedent; one that lets companies ignore their fans in favor of poor writing.

[Lanceare]

Thank you for the positive comments and discussion, folks.

[CarGryph]

Lanceare wrote...

J. R. R. Tolkien released several iterations of The Lord of the Rings in order to improve things, clarify and fix problems. He also went back and rewrote parts of The Hobbit years later in order to bring it in line with the Lord of the Rings (i.e. fix plot holes and provide foreshadowing for the LotR). The version of The Hobbit we have now is not the version that was originally published, and it's better for it.

Eight years after killing off Sherlock Holmes, Sir Aurthur Conan Doyle went back and retroactively un-killed him based on overwhelming fan feedback. Then he wrote 'The Hounds of the Baskervilles'. His work, and he, benefited greatly.

CD Project Red, the developer behind the amazing 'The Witcher' and 'The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings' (which were already excellent) have retroactively made major changes to both games; changed content, added content, changed and added dialog, changed and added cut-scenes - based on interaction with fans and their own artistic integrity and desire to make the best games possible.

In The Witcher 2 they have both added a new beginning to the game as well as changed/expanded the ending of the game, based upon fan feedback. And they've done it all at no cost to the player. If you bought the game, you get all updates to the game, all new content and DLC, for free.

As a result they have some really excellent games and have garnered a great deal of love from the community for having such integrity and love for the fans.

Fans and critics alike have praised CD Project Red for all of this. Yet over this issue with Bioware and Mass Effect 3 people do a 180 and claim that if they fix the problems with the very unworthy ending to ME3, they are somehow violating some 'artistic integrity'.

False. Hypocrites.

Mass Effect could be a masterpiece. Instead it is a very good series with a terrible ending. The right thing to do, for the integrity and legacy of the series and for the fans is to redo the ending of ME3 as well as fix a couple of other missteps in the game (the Rachni being present no matter what you do, Tali not getting a proper reveal, etc.).

After all, Bioware did this for the Mass Effect novel - Mass Effect: Deception. Or maybe they should have just left it full of plot holes and inconsistencies...

Didn't see this earlier - there's nothing to add. Bring it to attention!

[RedTail F22]

A lot of good points made in this thread. We can only hope Bioware notices it and decides that creating the best game they can is the wise thing to do instead of keeping that ending.

[Necrotron]

Well, it isn't over yet, I still hope and expect Bioware to do the right thing.

Hopefully, they can appease us ending-haters with an optional ending DLC (which seems reasonable to me and not offensive to pro-ending fans).

If they simply 'tidy up' the current ending, there will still be fan outcries that last for a good while until all hope is lost.

[Akaki]

Bump for great justice. Would be cool if some Biowareian provided some feedback on the OP.

[Cimeas]

The Witcher 2 had a good ending, they've just made it better. ME3 did not have a good ending, to say the least.

[LPPrince]

Ray came out and in his statement, made it clear(to me at least) that they aren't going to just replace the ending of the game, but add clarification and closure through DLC.

Unfortunately, we ALL know we'll have to purchase those DLC's if we want the game to have any sort of closure.

And that's IF the DLC's will be post-game.

[DaosX]

Don't forget Valve changing the ending to Portal.

The difference here guys is that these people who ARE willing to improve their work show their love and dedication for it. Developers who just want to be done with it...not so much.

[DVZ]

Bumpity bump.

[Oninotaki]

Theobuomai wrote...

What I find incompatible is this implied connection with their "artistic choices" to ending the game with "mystery." Problem is, this "artistic choice" is supposed to be the satisfying means of fulfilling their promises.....but in doing so, nothing has been given, completed, nor finally, fulfilled.

It would be like a father promising his child a gift on his birthday.  The child looks forward to the fulfillment of that promise, i.e., getting the gift. And when the kid's birthday finally comes, the paper is ripped off, the box opened......and its empty.  The father smiles at his "creative choice" and says, "It's whatever you want it to be."

As much as the father believes himself to have thought of something unique and creative, the child knows the simple truth: he got nothing. The promised gift has yet to be given.  So the child is left only to his imagination, which finally never actually fulfills his father's promise, that is to say, his imagination can never actually give him the gift.  The child is left to a never ending "perhaps it could be this, or this, or that."  But no matter what the kid imagines, the box will remain empty in mystery, leaving the child in an eternal rut where the promise is waiting to be completed yet never actually is completed.....which is nothing but an eternal hell.

As a fan, I cannot give myself the ending, the closure, nor fulfill to myself the promises Bioware has made. To do so leaves me in nothing but an eternal "perhaps," an eternal "what if," which finally gives me nothing nor fulfills anything at all. 

You, Bioware, must give that to me outside of myself since it is you who made the promise. I, for one, give you the benefit of the doubt.  You've only done good by my book, and I'm hoping that these "artistic choices" include some plan you've had all along like the "Indoctrination" theory, where we will see ME3 fulfilled in the continued story & ending through DLC.

Until then, we fans remain only in "perhaps"....

Excellent point

[LPPrince]

Wow, that empty birthday present analogy is actually perfect.

Well done.

[VoodooDrackus]

It seems so compelling, but alas you are trying to shoehorn what seems like good examples into an otherwise perfect conclusion. And yes, that is my opinion and what I took away from the game and I know it vastly differs from those commenting here.

Charles Dickens did in fact write 2 endings, after his first ending was deemed too depressing by a friend he was staying with. To which he made another version and sent it off to the publisher which was used. He didn't do it from fan uproar, and he did it before it actually hit the streets.

Really all of the examples used are from the Artist/Writer wanting to elaborate on things in their own works. They were not being told that their work sucks and it needs to change. In some cases they were given constructive feedback and felt like elaborating.

Tolkien changed the Hobbit because he felt giving the ring to Bilbo didn't make sense while he was working on the LOTR. He made that decision, he was not being told he needs to do it or being criticized for it. When he started working on the history with the Silmarillion he saw things he wanted to elaborate on in LOTR. Again not because of fan outcries, but because he wanted all of his works to have a consistent history.

And CD Projekt, the main part of your post.
They fixed a lot of issues fans were talking about which do not include a new cinematic for the beginning or new scenes in the epilogue that summarize the players choices made throughout the game. From fan feedback they added a better tutorial section and fixed a lot of issues (read patch). And for fans of the game who already finished it, they get some new content. Plus the fact that it is being released on 360 they were really adapting it and in the process adding some new content. So basically they re-released the game and the PC owners get the update as well. Thus it being called the Enhanced Edition. And the ending is the same, it is just elaborated on with a summary of your actions.

That doesn't apply to your argument that Bioware should do it because everyone else did. They probaby will in the future, it doesn't mean their current work (ie the ending) is invalid. I assert it is not, but that is just me.
Also, we are talking 2 weeks after the release of a game, and most of you in this thread seem to want it changed post-haste. The things that you keep bringing up are done years and years later by the Directors, etc that revised or wanted to express their vision. They didn't do it within weeks. Nowhere was there a blood thirsty fan uproar that demanded they change things, they did it on their own after reflection.

Just give Bioware time and they will more than likely release something that answers your questions and fills in some blanks for you.

I don't know, maybe give it a rest or something?

[LPPrince]

If people shut up about it, nothing will change.

Hence why people aren't going to drop the subject until they feel the game's endings and their problems are rectified.

Simple as that.

[daguest]

Bioware is making art. The others ? Not so much. See ?
Also, Asimov and probably every writers around here had to change stuff because the editors asked.

[WilliamDracul88]

At this point, I would also like to ask: Why so many of you think that EA is responsible for the ending of ME3?

It's like all goes down to "Bioware is the pure Paragon that has been corrupted by the malevolence of the Renegades of EA!". Why? Nothing I have read in the Bioware's statements (or any other sources) says that EA was even AWARE of the ending. Why do you think that EA would implement such massive failure of an ending?
I don't know, but that does not the style of EAs games. AT ALL.
Also, other people say: "The ending is so bad because EA rushed them to finish the game faster!"; and I think "And what?". Being rushed means that you have to make such HORRIBLE ending? It's not rushed, It's just plain bad. And, apparently, we all need to believe that the ending was planned in the LAST place? That they were making the game since the first mission and up, and when they were "near London" suddenly some EA Evil Overlord (EAEO) shouted "I want that game finished by tomorrow!"?

Come on... Bioware has made great games, but hell, EA is not the Devil. Bioware is the one who MADE this ending, not their parent company.

Also, since Neverwinter Nights "Aribeth's Fate" I was fearing something like this...

Modifié par WilliamDracul88, 24 mars 2012 - 09:47 .