626 réponses à ce sujet

[FemmeShep]

Naltair wrote...

pro5 wrote...

My questions (sorry if already asked before, did not read through the whole thread):

1. Is it possible some footage and materials were not included in the public release of Final Hours (say, to be revealed at a later date to clarify the endings)?

2.  Is it possible Bioware intentionally used the Final Hours to spark further controversy and discussion about the endings by showing "development notes" and the like that weren't actually accurate or complete?

3. Is it really true that they were still arguing and unsure how to conclude the trilogy as late as November?

1. Unsure, that is for Geoff.

2. Geoff has stated this was his personal project, this was his agenda not BioWare's.  They worked with him and he ran information by them to be fact checked but this was not a response by BioWare to fans.  The bulk of the work was done before the game even released.

4. As stated in the app, they had issues with how they wanted to do the ending, the wording and the like.  I don't think it was described as arguing per se in the Final Hours, just they were trying to get it right.  Which I am sure will not appease the ending bashers.

Seriously, who made this person the police of all questions? Scrolling back, I see him quoting almost every post, and trying to be the spokesperson for Geoff. 

[Ashilana]

tobito113 wrote...
What endings advocates genocide or removal of free will? As far as i know none of them advocates genocide. In fact there is not a SINGLE quote from the endings where sheppard agrees with what the reapers are doing...

Your choices are

A) do what TIM wanted to do while indoctrinted

Wipe out free will in the galaxy or at least forcibly violate all life in the galaxy.  (The replacement character for Mordin makes a very empassioned defense of forcing his concept of "evolution" with a purpose on others... it is creepy and worth seeing to understand how someone could rationalize synthesis.)

C) Genocide

So, with those three options for our hero... and our hero not questioning the logic the reapers' use to justify their (final) solution... what do you think the ending was supposed to advocate?

Modifié par Ashilana, 26 mars 2012 - 04:35 .

[Naltair]

FemmeShep wrote...

That's fine, but you are ignoring how a lot people feel, and inserting your own feelings into your words to describe what a segment of the fanbase is feeling. 

Those that do not like the ending, do not find it to be controversial or polarizing, but instead poorly written and awful.

What does poorly written mean?  What does awful mean objectively?  These are subjective terms, where the words are choose are much more precise in describing the situation around Mass Effect 3.  Awful is too vague a term.  I could say man this food is awful; it is bad but what does that mean?  What makes them awful?  I don't like using vague terms.

I am not ignoring how people feel, in fact I am validating what people feel, being polarized is not actually a positive.  It shows that the fanbase is heavily divided and crticial often in diametrically opposed ways.  Just because I don't use vague terms and bash BioWare or the game does not mean that I am saying everything is fine.  Obviously everything is not fine, but the way I choose to observe and describe the situation is no less apt then your own.

In short, I fully recognize there is an issue here, but I prefer to come at it from a more detached intellectual standpoint then give into emotion and nerd rage and fume.  

[Naltair]

FemmeShep wrote...

Seriously, who made this person the police of all questions? Scrolling back, I see him quoting almost every post, and trying to be the spokesperson for Geoff. 

Well many of the questions have been answered already.  I am not trying to be a Geoff defender, I am actually trying to be reasonable when many of the fans are being jerks and making weird allegations and claims.

I have the app though and it seems that people have unreasonable ideas of what it actually covers and just who Geoff is.

Modifié par Naltair, 26 mars 2012 - 04:32 .

[Chromie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Geth are alive and have a soul, anyone claiming otherwise misses the entire point of Rannoch if you side with the Geth/achieve peace.

Geth are AI. They think like an A.I would. They want to stop Quarians from fighting each other and more Geth from being destroyed. How do we know? Like you said Rannoch shows us some of the earliest Geth memories from the Geth's perspective. The Geth where trying to accomplish a difficult goal it lead to do things like start a war, exile the Quarians and some even followed the Reapers.

Have you seen or read 2001: A Space Odyssey? HAL 9000 had two missions while on Discovery One which were to keep the ship in a perfect condition and most of all keep the mission a secret from everyone including the crew. These two orders conflicted with each other because HAL made a miscalculation which is a big deal (obviously) what's to say the Geth didn't experience something like this? After all Geth A.I and A.I in Space Odyssey are both very new technologies at least on that scale. 

[Ashilana]

spacefiddle wrote...

Wait... am I to understand that, with at least a week to go before Bioware breaks its silence on what's really going on, we have an advert in here for a paid app?

Really?  Hey we're still not telling you anything, but if you forgot to go buy our documentary please do so, because customer dissatisfaction has caused us to sell less copies of it than we were hoping?

Really?

Agreed.  Modern journalism has issues with one sided reporting.   I am not an expert on the history of journalism, but it seems that imbedded journalists (whether they are following a political campaign or in a war zone) end up sympathizing to much with those they are supposed to be observing.

The callous way this journalist responded to fan's criticisms of the games ending hardly seems like good journalistic impartiality.

[sth128]

Naltair I'm assuming you're replying to me. Do point and laugh at me if I was just being self-important.

Naltair wrote...

I just think you are implying he can't answer because BioWare won't let him,

I made no such implications. I don't participate nor propagate conspiracies. Frankly I even doubt the indoctrination theory despite (some might say) the evidences present.

Of course both sides benefit but I don't see it as a conspiracy. All data points to the fact that he isn't here doing BioWare PR.

Again, I didn't say conspiracy. I said it's a business decision that benefits both sides. As for "not doing Bioware PR"... You really don't see a journalist publishing a feature on Bioware to coincide with a new game release a PR move? Really?

If Ford were to release a new electric car and say, Automobile Magazine did a piece on the hard work, technology, and research that went into the car, you would seriously say that "it's not a PR move"? It is *not* relating information to the public? I think you meant to say that Geoff didn't do a "fluff piece", that is to say, he didn't make out ME3 to be "the greatest game ever" regardless of his investigation.

I just feel like you have a negative disposition towards Geoff's intentions, that is your prerogative, but I believe a poor one. It may just be he is here to gather information for his project and speak with actual fans.

No no I'm just speaking in a way that causes speculation for everyone... LOL

Geoff may very well be here to speak to actual fans. But considering the feeling the majority has toward the game ending, I think it's not unfair for him to expect somewhat biased attitudes toward him, Bioware, and well, everything else.

[Naltair]

Ashilana wrote...

Agreed.  Modern journalism has issues with one sided reporting.   I am not an expert on the history of journalism, but it seems that imbedded journalists (whether they are following a political campaign or in a war zone) end up sympathizing to much with those they are supposed to be observing.

The callous way this journalist responded to fan's criticisms of the games ending hardly seems like good journalistic impartiality.

He visited BioWare a few times and got material from them, I would hardly call that imbedded.  I can't comment on his response, but he wasn't imbedded.  

[InsaneAzrael]

Naltair wrote...

I'm still not convinced that Mass Effect as a series will be that reviled or looked down on. In fact even if the ending of say Lost was "disappointing" there are an awful lot of shows that seem to want to emulate or capitalize on the maligned series.

Now I will admit that this ending will be remembered for polarizing the community and industry journalists alike. I think it will be an interesting episode in gaming and I am intrigued to see how it turns out. But it is too early to say that it will remembered as the worst thing ever.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Naltair]

sth128 wrote...
Geoff may very well be here to speak to actual fans. But considering the feeling the majority has toward the game ending, I think it's not unfair for him to expect somewhat biased attitudes toward him, Bioware, and well, everything else.

Certainly I don't think he is naive, the fans here would be pretty hostile but also sadly misinformed as well.

You are right I did mean he did not do a fluff piece, in fact his work has had the opposite effect as many people have used the Final Hours as further proof that BioWare screwed up royally.  I just don't think he has a pro-BioWare agenda any more so than he has an ani-BioWare agenda.

Does he have an agenda of course, but I just can't see it being purely driven to make BioWare look good.

[sth128]

Naltair wrote...

Does he have an agenda of course, but I just can't see it being purely driven to make BioWare look good.

Well there you go. So Geoff *is* Anderson; he doesn't agree with the Consul on everything, but he can't exactly join Shepard on his quest either. And like Anderson, he has limited dialogue options, never quite satisfying the inquisitive Shepard.

Hmm... Does that make Casey Hudson TIM? Does Hudson have the same space magic to control Anderson?

*cue conspiracy music*

Err I mean...

*cue Nyan Cat*

[Actinguy1]

Thanks for taking the time to answer a few of our questions...or, submitting yourself to the lion's den, as the case may be. ;c) I apologize on behalf of anyone who somehow thought you had anything to do with the actual ending, etc.

I think you've done a great job addressing what you know about the ending, so let's move on to the next controversy: Tali's face. Can you tell us anything about the decision to photoshop a stock photo and use that as the big Tali's face reveal?

Thanks!

[loungeshep]

what an ass. no wonder you fans are being called entitlement losers

Saku39 wrote...

GeoffKeighley wrote...


Saku39 - Are you serious? Create "real life consequences" for whoever wrote the ending? You may not like how the game ended, but like any form of creative expression we have to respect the artists behind the game....and all the amazing work they did on the series overall.

Oh, yes, I'm absolutely serious. In most industries, a mistake of these proportions would result in someone being fired. Who is going to be fired, Geoff? Who is responsible for the ending we recieved, which polls around 4 percent positive among BioWare's customers? Was it Mac Walters? Was it Hudson? Was it both? What is the full name of the person who ultimatelhgytvgy approved the end sequence dialogue? Why has that person not been fired?

No, I DON'T have to respect the artists behind the game. Is that rule written down somewhere? Perhaps you should speak to my attorney. The artists in question (whomever is personally responsible for the worst recieved ending to a video game property in history) are not deserving of respect, they are deserving of scorn and anger and ridicule. I bought a product with advertised features and benefits, and they were just a pack of LIES, Geoff. This was an ABORTION, and its nothing but deflection and PR bullcrap from BioWare since. They KNEW this ending sucked, and they LIED to us about it. Thats one of the main reasons people are upset. We are sick of being talked to as if BioWare's products are both unassailable art and crass profit making enterprises simultaneously. If it's art, why did they lie about it?

THEY answer to US, Geoff. Their art answers to our whims and desires as paying customers, not Mac Walter's personal sense of accomplishment. (rasberry)  WE are in charge of the gaming industry. BioWare's future sales will reflect this, and then you will see heads roll.

Why wait?

[FemmeShep]

Edited to not derail the thread. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 26 mars 2012 - 05:13 .

[Naltair]

FemmeShep wrote...
But let's not have this discussion in this thread. This a thread about Geoff and people asking questions. I wish you would stop being obnoxious and trying to dominate it as a thread. 

I only post to clarify things that have either been answered or to dispel untruths.

If people stopped doing either then I don't post.  other then that there has been some interesting discussion here, I like interesting discussions.

If that annoys you I apologize but I am equally annoyed at people making baseless accusations or asking questions that have been answered already.

Modifié par Naltair, 26 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[FemmeShep]

I have to tip my hat to Geoff, surely he knew fans reactions before coming in here. Must have been a tough crowd. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 26 mars 2012 - 05:13 .

[Naltair]

No one, sometimes you just take it upon yourself to do something you feel is right to do. Like I don't know rail against the endings and start the Hold the Line movement...

Honestly I am just tired of all the angry "ending" posts, I am tied of it and doing what I can to show that not every fan on this forum is a mindless I hate the endings spouting zealot.  Not hat I am against that side, it just gets old, when that is all anyone says constantly.

Modifié par Naltair, 26 mars 2012 - 05:00 .

[jspiess]

sth128 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Does he have an agenda of course, but I just can't see it being purely driven to make BioWare look good.

Well there you go. So Geoff *is* Anderson; he doesn't agree with the Consul on everything, but he can't exactly join Shepard on his quest either. And like Anderson, he has limited dialogue options, never quite satisfying the inquisitive Shepard.

Hmm... Does that make Casey Hudson TIM? Does Hudson have the same space magic to control Anderson?

*cue conspiracy music*

Err I mean...

*cue Nyan Cat*

By the goddess that video is ridiculous

[FemmeShep]

So anyways, how many of you are actually going to check this app out? 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 26 mars 2012 - 05:12 .

[Petrikles]

Are you planning an update about how Bioware reacted internally to fan criticism, maybe once things have calmed down? IMO this is an interesting situation and maybe the beginning of a new level of interaction with the fanbase (which Bioware has already developed very far). Maybe a comparison how this could stem from or feedback to MMORPG procedures?

[Naltair]

I am hardly at fault for ballooning this thread, it was already 19+ plus pages before I even started posting.

[N7Raider]

Saku39 wrote...


Oh, yes, I'm absolutely serious. In most industries, a mistake of these proportions would result in someone being fired. Who is going to be fired, Geoff? Who is responsible for the ending we recieved, which polls around 4 percent positive among BioWare's customers? Was it Mac Walters? Was it Hudson? Was it both? What is the full name of the person who ultimatelhgytvgy approved the end sequence dialogue? Why has that person not been fired?

No, I DON'T have to respect the artists behind the game. Is that rule written down somewhere? Perhaps you should speak to my attorney. The artists in question (whomever is personally responsible for the worst recieved ending to a video game property in history) are not deserving of respect, they are deserving of scorn and anger and ridicule. I bought a product with advertised features and benefits, and they were just a pack of LIES, Geoff. This was an ABORTION, and its nothing but deflection and PR bullcrap from BioWare since. They KNEW this ending sucked, and they LIED to us about it. Thats one of the main reasons people are upset. We are sick of being talked to as if BioWare's products are both unassailable art and crass profit making enterprises simultaneously. If it's art, why did they lie about it?

THEY answer to US, Geoff. Their art answers to our whims and desires as paying customers, not Mac Walter's personal sense of accomplishment. (rasberry)  WE are in charge of the gaming industry. BioWare's future sales will reflect this, and then you will see heads roll.

Why wait?

yeah if I had seen a post like this a couple weeks back i would totally be on the "you people are entitled whiny pricks" train.  No seriously dude, you are an entitled whiny b!tch.  

[sth128]

jspiess wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Err I mean...

*cue Nyan Cat*

By the goddess that video is ridiculous

And I wouldn't have it any other way.

[saracen16]

N7Raider wrote...

Saku39 wrote...


Oh, yes, I'm absolutely serious. In most industries, a mistake of these proportions would result in someone being fired. Who is going to be fired, Geoff? Who is responsible for the ending we recieved, which polls around 4 percent positive among BioWare's customers? Was it Mac Walters? Was it Hudson? Was it both? What is the full name of the person who ultimatelhgytvgy approved the end sequence dialogue? Why has that person not been fired?

No, I DON'T have to respect the artists behind the game. Is that rule written down somewhere? Perhaps you should speak to my attorney. The artists in question (whomever is personally responsible for the worst recieved ending to a video game property in history) are not deserving of respect, they are deserving of scorn and anger and ridicule. I bought a product with advertised features and benefits, and they were just a pack of LIES, Geoff. This was an ABORTION, and its nothing but deflection and PR bullcrap from BioWare since. They KNEW this ending sucked, and they LIED to us about it. Thats one of the main reasons people are upset. We are sick of being talked to as if BioWare's products are both unassailable art and crass profit making enterprises simultaneously. If it's art, why did they lie about it?

THEY answer to US, Geoff. Their art answers to our whims and desires as paying customers, not Mac Walter's personal sense of accomplishment. (rasberry)  WE are in charge of the gaming industry. BioWare's future sales will reflect this, and then you will see heads roll.

Why wait?

yeah if I had seen a post like this a couple weeks back i would totally be on the "you people are entitled whiny pricks" train.  No seriously dude, you are an entitled whiny b!tch.  

Yeah, damn BioWare for having the audacity to make their own story for us to enjoy.

[Singu]

Is having passionate fans a positive thing? Is including elements like morals and empathy in games a positive or negative? And, playing off the emotions that you put on this highly interactive medium that is a game like this, is it cheap to stab deep with the writing quill to inflict the most emotional response from the players who've invested themselves the deepest emotionally into the game? And then ultimately, claiming artistic freedom in creating a rigid and unyielding ending when the predictable uproar from the players spills over into PR and gaming news. Art versus entitlement is a sidetrack of the debate I think, the debate is how you can touch and upset players with maximum effect. And I think Bioware has proven both extremes in this case.

These questions must be interesting to ask yourself as a gaming journalists. It touches upon the potential future of gaming, and what I would imagine is potential pitfall for a gaming studio that decides to venture into -- What I would almost consider a social experiment with an increasingly passionate fan base as they delivered content to the trilogy.

Actually, even more importantly for me as a gamer is the potential that we can learn something from this in the industry instead of rewriting a game. Because I honestly feel that I've wasted a lot of time playing this wonderful game for many years on and off, just by ten minutes of extremely controversial techniques of writing to inflict the most emotional responce from me.

Modifié par Singu, 26 mars 2012 - 06:49 .