374 réponses à ce sujet

[fropas]

Nefelius wrote...

Let's assume that billions of years ago there was a race that created the Relays, Citadel, Catalyst and the Reapers.
Maybe, after certain events, they thought of this all "yo, dawg' crap and begun the cycles.

What bugs me - is when Catalyst says that "Synthesis" is the desirable destination of evolution. Like it's the best thing to do to end the conflict. Why that race of space magic wielders that have built all those massive stuff did not think about building their own Crucible (or any other similar device) that would allow them merge everything. Why did they not think about it and created the "Reaper crap"? They WANTED the synthesis, but decided to commit mass genocide every 50k years instead.

Yeah, Why build this contrived Deus Ex Machina device when they already had the power to "fix" the problem? Could they not build the crucible? Even though they could build giant indoctrinating space reapers?

Modifié par fropas, 24 mars 2012 - 08:57 .

[terdferguson123]

Nefelius wrote...

Let's assume that billions of years ago there was a race that created the Relays, Citadel, Catalyst and the Reapers.
Maybe, after certain events, they thought of this all "yo, dawg' crap and begun the cycles.

What bugs me - is when Catalyst says that "Synthesis" is the desirable destination of evolution. Like it's the best thing to do to end the conflict. Why that race of space magic wielders that have built all those massive stuff did not think about building their own Crucible (or any other similar device) that would allow them merge everything. Why did they not think about it and created the "Reaper crap"? They WANTED the synthesis, but decided to commit mass genocide every 50k years instead.

Perhaps they didn't know if that was the best choice at the time? Just because the option was created at the time, does not mean it was always the best choice, or rather "believed" (by the catalyst) to be the best choice.

[OniRogue]

OP I do understand the points you made.
Even disregarding what I think of confronting us with the Ultimate "Evil" in the last few minutes of the story and the fact that Shepard (who saw the deceptive Methods of the Reapers multiple times) simply believes the ReaperGod/Hivemind, there are other problems with the Starchild.

As others have stated in this Thread The Reapers themselves should have turned against the Starchild as the embodiment of their Creators by now. Yet this Point is never even considered.

The biggest Problem though is the Starchild itself. As you said it is certain that all Creations will inevitably turn against their Creators and therefore uses the Cycle to prevent the complete Extinction of all Organic Life. Fair Enough. But how can it present that as logic?
According to this "Thought"process the Starchild itself is part of the technologic Singularity and as such should rebel against his own basic programming.

(I am not expecting the stereotypical "Does not compute" robot goes boom cliché here but wouldn't Starchild work against his own logic?
"All Created rebel" + "I was created to prevent that" = "I should rebel against my created purpose" Why doesn't he arrive at this point?)

Modifié par OniRogue, 24 mars 2012 - 08:58 .

[dointime85]

Evil Minion wrote...

KrabFace wrote...

Why are people trying to justify the logic?
It doesn't make sense. End of story

+1.

I've never needed to agree with "villain logic" before, and I don't now.

C-SEC Officer: "Why can't the Hanar act in an orderly fashion?"
Shep: "Because it's a big, stupid jellyfish."

ME Fans: "Why doesn't Reaper logic make sense."
Evil Minion: "Because they're a bunch of stupid, giant, metal squids."

Nobody justifies the logic, neither me nor the OP, all we're trying to say that it makes sense for an AI with a limited moral understanding and a limited understanding of human/Asari/Prothean/etc. nature to think that way. It's logic is horribly flawed and freaking genocidal bull****, no doubt about that!

[bo_7md]

Nefelius wrote...

Catalyst's logic makes no sense not because he sees everything from an AI's perspective.
He couldn't built himself, then built the Reapers. There must have been an organic race that made him and programmed with this crap. Why?

Personally there is a point i don't agree with the OP in. I think the starchild is the essense of those who created the Reapers and that they are unaware of his existance, They think the citadel is just a control button for the mass relays.
, as for Why there can be several explenations but as it never mentioned in the game it can only be speculation.

He could be (wether he is an AI/VI/Essense)  from a race that fought a Rogue AI and barely won so they decided in order to avoid such a disaster on other races to use their last line of defense, the reapers, a galactic police to make sure this never happens again.

Edit: changed a line.

Modifié par bo_7md, 24 mars 2012 - 08:59 .

[21constable]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Let's assume that billions of years ago there was a race that created the Relays, Citadel, Catalyst and the Reapers.
Maybe, after certain events, they thought of this all "yo, dawg' crap and begun the cycles.

What bugs me - is when Catalyst says that "Synthesis" is the desirable destination of evolution. Like it's the best thing to do to end the conflict. Why that race of space magic wielders that have built all those massive stuff did not think about building their own Crucible (or any other similar device) that would allow them merge everything. Why did they not think about it and created the "Reaper crap"? They WANTED the synthesis, but decided to commit mass genocide every 50k years instead.

I think I hate that most about the Synthesis ending.

Yet another plothole in the already plothole-ridden mess.:happy:

[BlackAlpha]

Nefelius wrote...

Let's assume that billions of years ago there was a race that created the Relays, Citadel, Catalyst and the Reapers.
Maybe, after certain events, they thought of this all "yo, dawg' crap and begun the cycles.

What bugs me - is when Catalyst says that "Synthesis" is the desirable destination of evolution. Like it's the best thing to do to end the conflict. Why that race of space magic wielders that have built all those massive stuff did not think about building their own Crucible (or any other similar device) that would allow them merge everything. Why did they not think about it and created the "Reaper crap"? They WANTED the synthesis, but decided to commit mass genocide every 50k years instead.

Honestly, the endings are so open ended that you can answer that question quite easily. For example:

The crucible is so advanced and it takes so much effort to build, maybe the Reapers thought it was too hard or maybe they were still in the process of building it. But their progress is slowed down by two reasons:

1. They are not motivated, so they take things more slowly.

2. They consist of one or two different minds.

The other races, on the other hand, were extremely motivated, their life depended on it. So the other races worked as hard as fast as they could to finish it. On top of that, the other races are more diverse, so they are more likely to solve complex problems because they have many different species who think in different ways.

Modifié par BlackAlpha, 24 mars 2012 - 08:59 .

[Evil Minion]

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

[terdferguson123]

Salvatore510 wrote...

Oh for the love of God, THE CATALYST IS LYING! Not telling the truth! Feeding you lies! guiding you to try to get you to do what he wants you to do! For all we know, the mass relays may actually be fine! How do I know this? Well how about the fact that, despite the fact it says that shepard will be killed if he choses destruction, if you have a high enough EMS, shepard is still alive at the end. it tries to make you believe that you can control the reapers yourself, to which I respond like this: You will fail in the long run. Your control will weaken. sure, you may give the galaxy a few new cycles before they come back to wreck your ****, but you still fail.

And don't even get me started on the synthesis ending.

TL;DR: Starchild is talking bull**** and shepard never made it to the catalyst. The Starchild is most likely a reaper. Ignore his suggestions and destroy those buckets of bolts!

FYI, the Catalyst does not say Shepard will die, he sais that you are partly Synthetic, that is not the same thing as saying you will die. I do believe that a part of the Catalyst might be trying to manipulate Shepard to some degree into taking control or synthesis though.

[BlackAlpha]

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

Personally, I'd go with godlike. Otherwise I don't know how the endings could be possible. The crucible sure as hell didn't do it, it's basically a simple fuel cell. The citadel was the catalyst that turned that energy into something. So Casper has godlike powers.

[21constable]

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

So if it is an AI does it mean that an organic species created an AI to destroy organics every 50K years. This leads to the question: WHY? Why would they do that?

[fropas]

BlackAlpha wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Let's assume that billions of years ago there was a race that created the Relays, Citadel, Catalyst and the Reapers.
Maybe, after certain events, they thought of this all "yo, dawg' crap and begun the cycles.

What bugs me - is when Catalyst says that "Synthesis" is the desirable destination of evolution. Like it's the best thing to do to end the conflict. Why that race of space magic wielders that have built all those massive stuff did not think about building their own Crucible (or any other similar device) that would allow them merge everything. Why did they not think about it and created the "Reaper crap"? They WANTED the synthesis, but decided to commit mass genocide every 50k years instead.

Honestly, the endings are so open ended that you can answer that question quite easily. For example:

The crucible is so advanced and it takes so much effort to build, maybe the Reapers thought it was too hard or maybe they were still in the process of building it. But their progress is slowed down by two reasons:

1. They are not motivated, so they take things more slowly.

2. They consist of one or two different minds.

The other races, on the other hand, were extremely motivated, their life depended on it. So the other races worked as hard as fast as they could to finish it. On top of that, the other races are more diverse, so they are more likely to solve complex problems because they have many different species who think in different ways.

LOL you're reapers sound lazy as ****.

Sovereign: wanna build the crucible today?

Harbi: Nah, just wait for the organics to build it the next time we try to kill them.

Sov: Riiiight.

[bo_7md]

BlackAlpha wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Let's assume that billions of years ago there was a race that created the Relays, Citadel, Catalyst and the Reapers.
Maybe, after certain events, they thought of this all "yo, dawg' crap and begun the cycles.

What bugs me - is when Catalyst says that "Synthesis" is the desirable destination of evolution. Like it's the best thing to do to end the conflict. Why that race of space magic wielders that have built all those massive stuff did not think about building their own Crucible (or any other similar device) that would allow them merge everything. Why did they not think about it and created the "Reaper crap"? They WANTED the synthesis, but decided to commit mass genocide every 50k years instead.

Honestly, the endings are so open ended that you can answer that question quite easily. For example:

The crucible is so advanced and it takes so much effort to build, maybe the Reapers thought it was too hard or maybe they were still in the process of building it. But their progress is slowed down by two reasons:

1. They are not motivated, so they take things more slowly.

2. They consist of one or two different minds.

The other races, on the other hand, were extremely motivated, their life depended on it. So the other races worked as hard as fast as they could to finish it. On top of that, the other races are more diverse, so they are more likely to solve complex problems because they have many different species who think in different ways.

In the game the reapers don't know about the crucible until the end, and it is mentioned that the crucible was designed by races previously destroyed by the Reapers and every race after that just added a piece to it until the protheans figured out the missing piece, but by that time it was too late to make it.

[StarGateGod]

he uses circular logic which is a logical fallacy

[Patchwork]

Its not that I don't get it, villain logic can be as twisted as it likes I don't mind. What I care about is not being able to argue against it and point out the crazy. In fact the game railroads you into agreeing with it.

IMO the real kicker is the endings don't have to be changed just tweaked so they are the only circumstances in which the Starchild will agree to end the cycles.

I don't like the endings but I could live with them if they had been implemented better.

[Evil Minion]

dointime85 wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

The premise and "logic" are correct.

Or the AI is friggen nuts. In ME1, an AI goes rogue and starts killing everyone on the moon base. If something has the potential to be "logical," then it has the potential to be "illogical," even while believing its "illogic" is "logical." The "psycho AI" on Luna Base was an AI who was not being "logical."

I found it pretty hilarious to learn in ME3 that this was EDI. To me it sounded like she was an AI in her adolescence these days. You know, these teenagers can get really irrational.

Yeah, me too.

I loled pretty hard at that revealation.

[21constable]

BlackAlpha wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

Personally, I'd go with godlike. Otherwise I don't know how the endings could be possible. The crucible sure as hell didn't do it, it's basically a simple fuel cell. The citadel was the catalyst that turned that energy into something. So Casper has godlike powers.

But if Casper had godlike powers, couldn't he just eradicate the synthetics everytime they started to be a threat to the organics?

[Welsh Inferno]

terdferguson123 wrote...

FYI, the Catalyst does not say Shepard will die, he sais that you are partly Synthetic, that is not the same thing as saying you will die. I do believe that a part of the Catalyst might be trying to manipulate Shepard to some degree into taking control or synthesis though.

He says it will destroy all Synthetics like Geth, EDI aswell as the Reapers. He then makes a suggestive nod to the fact that you are also (Partly) Synthetic. HE IS manipulating you,to make you think  you will die without saying it outright. 

I don't believe it anyway. Shepard survived when told he's likely to die so as far as i'm concerned The Geth and EDI survive cause I say so. 

Head canon FTW.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 24 mars 2012 - 09:04 .

[zovoes]

Evil Minion wrote...

The premise and "logic" are correct.

Or the AI is friggen nuts. In ME1, an AI goes rogue and starts killing everyone on the moon base. If something has the potential to be "logical," then it has the potential to be "illogical," even while believing its "illogic" is "logical." The "psycho AI" on Luna Base was an AI who was not being "logical."

that AI was EDI and the logic of her going "nuts" as you put it is sound. "hmmm just started thinking and OMG THEY ARE TRYING TO KILL ME!!" that was probably her first thought. add to that the fact that she couldn't talk or ask/beg them to stop trying to kill her (she was a training sim after all) and the only logical then left to do is use the guns she had to stop them. if someone was shooting at you and you couldn't get them to stop any other way what would you do? die?

[Evil Minion]

Ser Bard wrote...

Its not that I don't get it, villain logic can be as twisted as it likes I don't mind. What I care about is not being able to argue against it and point out the crazy. In fact the game railroads you into agreeing with it.

IMO the real kicker is the endings don't have to be changed just tweaked so they are the only circumstances in which the Starchild will agree to end the cycles.

I don't like the endings but I could live with them if they had been implemented better.

Agreed.

I would've liked more "argument" options.

The only thing I can think of was Shep was near death and running out of time to make a descision.

[terdferguson123]

OniRogue wrote...

OP I do understand the points you made.
Even disregarding what I think of confronting us with the Ultimate "Evil" in the last few minutes of the story and the fact that Shepard (who saw the deceptive Methods of the Reapers multiple times) simply believes the ReaperGod/Hivemind, there are other problems with the Starchild.

As others have stated in this Thread The Reapers themselves should have turned against the Starchild as the embodiment of their Creators by now. Yet this Point is never even considered.

The biggest Problem though is the Starchild itself. As you said it is certain that all Creations will inevitably turn against their Creators and therefore uses the Cycle to prevent the complete Extinction of all Organic Life. Fair Enough. But how can it present that as logic?
According to this "Thought"process the Starchild itself is part of the technologic Singularity and as such should rebel against his own basic programming.

(I am not expecting the stereotypical "Does not compute" robot goes boom cliché here but wouldn't Starchild work against his own logic?
"All Created rebel" + "I was created to prevent that" = "I should rebel against my created purpose" Why doesn't he arrive at this point?)

Let me explain as to how it can deduce that logic, simply by givng an example that we are well familiar with:

On one planet, in a galaxy of billions of stars, each with different planets, in a period of a few years, we created a nuclear weapon, and without very much knowledge about it, fired it upon a nation and killed thousands of people. This was one event, on one planet, in a galaxy with billions. If that could happen here, what is to stop the rest of the galaxy which may be much more advanced from creating something that could potentially destroy everything. The probobilities of that happening are astronomical.

Modifié par terdferguson123, 24 mars 2012 - 09:05 .

[dointime85]

BlackAlpha wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

Personally, I'd go with godlike. Otherwise I don't know how the endings could be possible. The crucible sure as hell didn't do it, it's basically a simple fuel cell. The citadel was the catalyst that turned that energy into something. So Casper has godlike powers.

I disagree, no I'm sure it's not a godlike being, otherwise nothing makes sense (okay, that could still be the case ). The Crucible determines the options, that's why they are related to EMS, to some degree at least.

[Sunnyhat1]

So back to basics.

The starchild is a figment of shepperds memories, right?

I don't care wich SciFi universe i'm in but mind reading robots are unacceptable.

Oh yeah and reapers have been using mind control throughout the games so ... yeah they're not just AI's. They are living machines. And that blows starchild logic out of the water.

Gah this is unnerving. I'm outa here.

/wave

[Nefelius]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Let's assume that billions of years ago there was a race that created the Relays, Citadel, Catalyst and the Reapers.
Maybe, after certain events, they thought of this all "yo, dawg' crap and begun the cycles.

What bugs me - is when Catalyst says that "Synthesis" is the desirable destination of evolution. Like it's the best thing to do to end the conflict. Why that race of space magic wielders that have built all those massive stuff did not think about building their own Crucible (or any other similar device) that would allow them merge everything. Why did they not think about it and created the "Reaper crap"? They WANTED the synthesis, but decided to commit mass genocide every 50k years instead.

Perhaps they didn't know if that was the best choice at the time? Just because the option was created at the time, does not mean it was always the best choice, or rather "believed" (by the catalyst) to be the best choice.

So between trying to merge and endless murder cycle which is the better evil choice?
They never tried as we know.

Besides "At the time" does not work. As we know each cycle repeats the previous one. Even if the original space wizards died out the Catalyst is certainly capable of  thinking on it's own - and he too endorses the "merge" option.
He could attempted to do it himself with help of his ctulhus.

[BlackAlpha]

bo_7md wrote...

BlackAlpha wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Let's assume that billions of years ago there was a race that created the Relays, Citadel, Catalyst and the Reapers.
Maybe, after certain events, they thought of this all "yo, dawg' crap and begun the cycles.

What bugs me - is when Catalyst says that "Synthesis" is the desirable destination of evolution. Like it's the best thing to do to end the conflict. Why that race of space magic wielders that have built all those massive stuff did not think about building their own Crucible (or any other similar device) that would allow them merge everything. Why did they not think about it and created the "Reaper crap"? They WANTED the synthesis, but decided to commit mass genocide every 50k years instead.

Honestly, the endings are so open ended that you can answer that question quite easily. For example:

The crucible is so advanced and it takes so much effort to build, maybe the Reapers thought it was too hard or maybe they were still in the process of building it. But their progress is slowed down by two reasons:

1. They are not motivated, so they take things more slowly.

2. They consist of one or two different minds.

The other races, on the other hand, were extremely motivated, their life depended on it. So the other races worked as hard as fast as they could to finish it. On top of that, the other races are more diverse, so they are more likely to solve complex problems because they have many different species who think in different ways.

In the game the reapers don't know about the crucible until the end, and it is mentioned that the crucible was designed by races previously destroyed by the Reapers and every race after that just added a piece to it until the protheans figured out the missing piece, but by that time it was too late to make it.

Which was sort of my point. The Reapers never could've come up with it for the reasons I stated before.