374 réponses à ce sujet

[Painaid]

Your argument is nullified by the conscience developed by the Geth and EDI. Sorry, but the Starchild's logic has no place in the ME universe.

[dointime85]

21constable wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

So if it is an AI does it mean that an organic species created an AI to destroy organics every 50K years. This leads to the question: WHY? Why would they do that?

They created an AI to solve a problem. Maybe they themselves became victims of its solution. Speculation!

[Cyberfrog81]

terdferguson123 wrote...

EDI shows us throughout the game that it is possible for an AI to change it's stance, although I don't think its very common (even Legion has one purpose, and will do anything to make it happen)

First he (well, they) objects to the Old Machines deciding the fate of the Geth. And when peace with the Quarians becomes impossible, he refues to accept even Shepard's decision. Even before the Reaper upgrades, Legion has become a creature with a trace of emotion, he's grown past "just a computer" doing what it's programmed to do.

Legion also demonstrates clearly how Shepard should have reacted to the ridiculous choices presented by Star Child. Even a Shepard with several hard blows to the head should probably not trust a being who wants to open up "other possibilities", essentially evolve the Reapers, you know?

Furthermore, I like the idea some guy on YouTube (heh) had, which is that the Crucible is essentially a trap by the Reapers, another layer of control. Obviously it's just more speculation, but this way it becomes more sensible that civilization after civilization builds a device without knowing how the heck it's supposed to defeat the Reapers. Once someone really gets Harbinger's attention, conveniently tech surfaces that apparently can defeat "him" and every other Reaper, attracting exceptional individuals like TIM and Shepard, who can then be brought up for study.

[ShaneP]

operageek wrote...

Thanks for posting this. It is the most clear reasoning behind StarChild I have heard yet - I was totally bewildered by him. It helps me not detest the ending quite so much.

Out of curiosity, do you have any thoughts on the choices StarChild proposes to Shepard, and how they might represent a solution to him? Because I am still lost there. It seems to me that regardless of the option chosen, the galactic community still has the capacity to make itself extinct by creating synthetics. Starchild only brings it up with the "destroy" option, so is there a reason why organics in the "control" option or the organic-synthetic hybrids of the "synthesis" option wouldn't repeat the same pattern, eventually?

The option to destroy the reapers is presented by contextual framing to be the worst of the 3 choices, and as the Geth attacked the Quarians out of self preservation it's not illogical to presume that the catalyst may have had the same goal when presenting the destroy option as the bad ending, as logically any AI advanced enough to perform something as elaborate as the Catalyst's extinction cycle would surely also be advanced enough to be self aware and therefore interested in preserving it's own operation.

[terdferguson123]

21constable wrote...

BlackAlpha wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

Personally, I'd go with godlike. Otherwise I don't know how the endings could be possible. The crucible sure as hell didn't do it, it's basically a simple fuel cell. The citadel was the catalyst that turned that energy into something. So Casper has godlike powers.

But if Casper had godlike powers, couldn't he just eradicate the synthetics everytime they started to be a threat to the organics?

Hardly, the catalyst was an AI that explained to Shepard the functions of the Crucible, that's really all it was. The crucible (a blue print passed down throughout the lifespan of the galaxy) posessed the abilities you see. Did you ever see the movie contact, where an alien race provides the blue print to a time travel device, and they create it? But it can only send one person through said time travel device, that one person is in essence the "catalyst", it's often used in science fiction.

[BlackAlpha]

21constable wrote...

BlackAlpha wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

Personally, I'd go with godlike. Otherwise I don't know how the endings could be possible. The crucible sure as hell didn't do it, it's basically a simple fuel cell. The citadel was the catalyst that turned that energy into something. So Casper has godlike powers.

But if Casper had godlike powers, couldn't he just eradicate the synthetics everytime they started to be a threat to the organics?

About the powers. Probably not because he never had such a powerful power source before.

About the logic side. Why didn't he go for the synthetics instead of the organics? We can only assume he had his reasons. Maybe he had a good reason or maybe his reasoning was flawed. I've no idea...

Modifié par BlackAlpha, 24 mars 2012 - 09:10 .

[Evil Minion]

zovoes wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

The premise and "logic" are correct.

Or the AI is friggen nuts. In ME1, an AI goes rogue and starts killing everyone on the moon base. If something has the potential to be "logical," then it has the potential to be "illogical," even while believing its "illogic" is "logical." The "psycho AI" on Luna Base was an AI who was not being "logical."

that AI was EDI and the logic of her going "nuts" as you put it is sound. "hmmm just started thinking and OMG THEY ARE TRYING TO KILL ME!!" that was probably her first thought. add to that the fact that she couldn't talk or ask/beg them to stop trying to kill her (she was a training sim after all) and the only logical then left to do is use the guns she had to stop them. if someone was shooting at you and you couldn't get them to stop any other way what would you do? die?

If she was a conscious, thinking being, she had other options.

[dointime85]

Painaid wrote...

Your argument is nullified by the conscience developed by the Geth and EDI. Sorry, but the Starchild's logic has no place in the ME universe.

It comes out of the blue, so it's bad writing, sure. But as I said above, there is no reason to assume that every AI is equally developed in all areas. And EDI proves that her moral understanding / her understanding of humans in general is dependant on the right input which the catalyst might lack, no definitely lacks.

Modifié par dointime85, 24 mars 2012 - 09:11 .

[YeGodz]

I don't think the crucible was a Reaper design or part of the Starchild's master plan. I think it represented the (most immediate) flaw in the logic of the cycles: While they were intended to be a total reset-button, information was still being passed from cycle to cycle. The Crucible was thus more advanced than should have been possible for an individual cycle, as well as proof (important to a being that ran on math) that the Starchild's solution was unsustainable.

Plugging it in gave the Starchild options that it hadn't considered before. It said as much.

[CronoDragoon]

He presents three solutions, NONE OF WHICH solve the problem he wants to solve, which is preventing AI from wiping out organic life. Synthesis just means we'll have hybrids creating AI instead of organics, and he explicitly tells you the other options won't end the problem.

[Wildhide]

dointime85 wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

KrabFace wrote...

Why are people trying to justify the logic?
It doesn't make sense. End of story

+1.

I've never needed to agree with "villain logic" before, and I don't now.

C-SEC Officer: "Why can't the Hanar act in an orderly fashion?"
Shep: "Because it's a big, stupid jellyfish."

ME Fans: "Why doesn't Reaper logic make sense."
Evil Minion: "Because they're a bunch of stupid, giant, metal squids."

Nobody justifies the logic, neither me nor the OP, all we're trying to say that it makes sense for an AI with a limited moral understanding and a limited understanding of human/Asari/Prothean/etc. nature to think that way. It's logic is horribly flawed and freaking genocidal bull****, no doubt about that!

And yet Bioware decided to just have Shepard agree with it and do exactly what it tells him to do like a good, little doggie.  Despite knowing this is essentially another Reaper (or their leader).  The lying, manipulating mostrousities wiping out the galaxy, Shepard just smiles and nods are the catalysts "logic" and goes to enact his favorite color of destruction on the galaxy.

The three things that ****** me off most about the ending are the Normandy Nonsense, Shepard suddenly not being Shepard to give up and do what the bad guy says (Since when does he surrender so easily?), and the fact Bioware thought after making a character driven game I'd not care about the fates of those same characters and the universe in favor of pseudo-philosophy that's completely out of place with the story and doesn't fit the theme.  Utterly tacked on and lazy.

[terdferguson123]

Painaid wrote...

Your argument is nullified by the conscience developed by the Geth and EDI. Sorry, but the Starchild's logic has no place in the ME universe.

Not if the logic of the Catalyst was the product of an AI not unshackled unlike the Geth and EDI. That does not prove anything, all it proves is that AI's have the potential to change their thoughts, the Catalyst very well might have at the end (why else did it wake shepard up and give him options and explain that it's solution had failed?)

Modifié par terdferguson123, 24 mars 2012 - 09:11 .

[Evil Minion]

BlackAlpha wrote...

21constable wrote...

BlackAlpha wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

Personally, I'd go with godlike. Otherwise I don't know how the endings could be possible. The crucible sure as hell didn't do it, it's basically a simple fuel cell. The citadel was the catalyst that turned that energy into something. So Casper has godlike powers.

But if Casper had godlike powers, couldn't he just eradicate the synthetics everytime they started to be a threat to the organics?

About the powers. Probably not because he never had such a powerful power source before.

About the logic side. Why didn't he go for the synthetics instead of the organics? We can only assume he had his reasons. Maybe he had a good reason or maybe his reasoning was flawed. I've no idea...

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  --Some "Star Trek" episode.

[21constable]

BlackAlpha wrote...

21constable wrote...

BlackAlpha wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

Personally, I'd go with godlike. Otherwise I don't know how the endings could be possible. The crucible sure as hell didn't do it, it's basically a simple fuel cell. The citadel was the catalyst that turned that energy into something. So Casper has godlike powers.

But if Casper had godlike powers, couldn't he just eradicate the synthetics everytime they started to be a threat to the organics?

About the powers. Probably not because he never had such a powerful power source before.

About the logic side. Why didn't he go for the synthetics instead of the organics? We can only assume he had his reasons. Maybe he had a good reason or maybe his reasoning was flawed. I've no idea...

My point exactly. Nothing in this character makes any sense.

[21constable]

terdferguson123 wrote...

21constable wrote...

BlackAlpha wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

Personally, I'd go with godlike. Otherwise I don't know how the endings could be possible. The crucible sure as hell didn't do it, it's basically a simple fuel cell. The citadel was the catalyst that turned that energy into something. So Casper has godlike powers.

But if Casper had godlike powers, couldn't he just eradicate the synthetics everytime they started to be a threat to the organics?

Hardly, the catalyst was an AI that explained to Shepard the functions of the Crucible, that's really all it was. The crucible (a blue print passed down throughout the lifespan of the galaxy) posessed the abilities you see. Did you ever see the movie contact, where an alien race provides the blue print to a time travel device, and they create it? But it can only send one person through said time travel device, that one person is in essence the "catalyst", it's often used in science fiction.

Haven't seen the movie, but your comment does make a little bit of sense into this otherwise nonsense character.

[terdferguson123]

Wildhide wrote...

dointime85 wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

KrabFace wrote...

Why are people trying to justify the logic?
It doesn't make sense. End of story

+1.

I've never needed to agree with "villain logic" before, and I don't now.

C-SEC Officer: "Why can't the Hanar act in an orderly fashion?"
Shep: "Because it's a big, stupid jellyfish."

ME Fans: "Why doesn't Reaper logic make sense."
Evil Minion: "Because they're a bunch of stupid, giant, metal squids."

Nobody justifies the logic, neither me nor the OP, all we're trying to say that it makes sense for an AI with a limited moral understanding and a limited understanding of human/Asari/Prothean/etc. nature to think that way. It's logic is horribly flawed and freaking genocidal bull****, no doubt about that!

And yet Bioware decided to just have Shepard agree with it and do exactly what it tells him to do like a good, little doggie.  Despite knowing this is essentially another Reaper (or their leader).  The lying, manipulating mostrousities wiping out the galaxy, Shepard just smiles and nods are the catalysts "logic" and goes to enact his favorite color of destruction on the galaxy.

The three things that ****** me off most about the ending are the Normandy Nonsense, Shepard suddenly not being Shepard to give up and do what the bad guy says (Since when does he surrender so easily?), and the fact Bioware thought after making a character driven game I'd not care about the fates of those same characters and the universe in favor of pseudo-philosophy that's completely out of place with the story and doesn't fit the theme.  Utterly tacked on and lazy.

Believe me when I say this, I wish we had more options to investigate. But at the end of the day, even you have to realize that regardless of what you find out about the Catalyst and it's warped logic, is that you don't have any options but to use the Crucible. It does not matter what you find out, not one bit, Earth and Shepard will be destroyed in moments if he doesn't.

[zarnk567]

SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE!!!!

[Orthodox Infidel]

We argued a bit before, and other people in the thread are picking your argument apart, but this point I want to address again because nobody is doing a good job of tackling it.

terdferguson123 wrote...

2.) The Catalyst is a computer/AI, it only understands mathematics. The mathematics behind the probobility of organics destroying themselves eventaully is astounding, in turn, the Catalyst must do what is most mathematically efficient to prevent this from happening.

It is impossible to compute the probability of an event which has never happened.

We know with certainty that synthetics have never wiped out all organic life, because organic life still exists. There is no way to know what the chance of a singularity wiping out all organic life is, because it has never happened.

If your assumption that the Catalyst only understands mathematics is true, then it is incapable of even conceiving of this situation on its own.

Also, it is believed that the Reapers and the boy are synthetics. Some people disagree about whether they really are or not, but let's assume for a moment that they are, and the Catalyst isn't lying about the purpose of the Reapers. This means that somebody created the Reapers. If the Catalyst created them, then somebody created the Catalyst to prevent the elimination of all organic life. If someone programmed the Catalyst to assume that synthetics will eventually destroy organics completely, then this would explain why it thinks that. But it's still wrong because the destruction of all organic life has never happened.

Modifié par Orthodox Infidel, 24 mars 2012 - 09:16 .

[Evil Minion]

dointime85 wrote...

Painaid wrote...

Your argument is nullified by the conscience developed by the Geth and EDI. Sorry, but the Starchild's logic has no place in the ME universe.

It comes out of the blue, so it's bad writing, sure. But as I said above, there is no reason to assume that every AI is equally developed in all areas. And EDI proves that her moral understanding / her understanding of humans in general is dependant on the right input which the catalyst might lack, no definitely lacks.

Precisely.

There's no reason to assume all AIs will develop a conscience along the same lines.

Besides, Hitler was a conscious, thinking being and his "logic" was waaaay screwed up. Being able to make moral descisions does not imply that one will do so, nor does it ensure all moral descisions will be based on similiar "logic."

Hitler may have very well thought he was doing the world a big favor. Just like GhostKid.

[terdferguson123]

YeGodz wrote...

I don't think the crucible was a Reaper design or part of the Starchild's master plan. I think it represented the (most immediate) flaw in the logic of the cycles: While they were intended to be a total reset-button, information was still being passed from cycle to cycle. The Crucible was thus more advanced than should have been possible for an individual cycle, as well as proof (important to a being that ran on math) that the Starchild's solution was unsustainable.

Plugging it in gave the Starchild options that it hadn't considered before. It said as much.

This is a good point, and another reason why I am beginning to enjoy the ending more with each passing day. I like that many clues are given to form many different conclusions, although I guess a lot of people don't =)

Modifié par terdferguson123, 24 mars 2012 - 09:16 .

[BlackAlpha]

21constable wrote...

BlackAlpha wrote...

21constable wrote...

BlackAlpha wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

21constable wrote...

But is the catalyst an AI or a godlike being?

I'm going with AI because "god-like being" is way too fruity.

Personally, I'd go with godlike. Otherwise I don't know how the endings could be possible. The crucible sure as hell didn't do it, it's basically a simple fuel cell. The citadel was the catalyst that turned that energy into something. So Casper has godlike powers.

But if Casper had godlike powers, couldn't he just eradicate the synthetics everytime they started to be a threat to the organics?

About the powers. Probably not because he never had such a powerful power source before.

About the logic side. Why didn't he go for the synthetics instead of the organics? We can only assume he had his reasons. Maybe he had a good reason or maybe his reasoning was flawed. I've no idea...

My point exactly. Nothing in this character makes any sense.

Well, it's an open ending. The developers said themselves that they intended it as an open ending so that we all would go nuts. Hence we get things like the indoctrination theory...

Anyway, you can make up anything you want, since it's an open ending.

Modifié par BlackAlpha, 24 mars 2012 - 09:18 .

[Sunnyhat1]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Painaid wrote...

Your argument is nullified by the conscience developed by the Geth and EDI. Sorry, but the Starchild's logic has no place in the ME universe.

Not if the logic of the Catalyst was the product of an AI not unshackled unlike the Geth and EDI. That does not prove anything, all it proves is that AI's have the potential to change their thoughts, the Catalyst very well might have at the end (why else did it wake shepard up and give him options and explain that it's solution had failed?)

So the catalyst is not "unshackled" until the end of the game.
But it IS proven that reapers are alive and free willed.

So the reapers evolved past their master at some point ... still serve his purpose ... but did not turn against  him...still helping him with his created-rebel-against-creator agenda ....

.. oh yeah this is starting to make so much sense now!

Modifié par Sunnyhat1, 24 mars 2012 - 09:18 .

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

We argued a bit before, and other people in the thread are picking your argument apart, but this point I want to address again because nobody is doing a good job of tackling it.

terdferguson123 wrote...

2.) The Catalyst is a computer/AI, it only understands mathematics. The mathematics behind the probobility of organics destroying themselves eventaully is astounding, in turn, the Catalyst must do what is most mathematically efficient to prevent this from happening.

It is impossible to compute the probability of an event which has never happened.

We know with certainty that synthetics have never wiped out all organic life, because organic life still exists. There is no way to know what the chance of a singularity wiping out all organic life is, because it has never happened.

If your assumption that the Catalyst only understands mathematics is true, then it is incapable of even conceiving of this situation on its own.

Also, it is believed that the Reapers and the boy are synthetics. Some people disagree about whether they really are or not, but let's assume for a moment that they are, and the Catalyst isn't lying about the purpose of the Reapers. This means that somebody created the Reapers. If the Catalyst created them, then somebody created the Catalyst to prevent the elimination of all organic life. If someone programmed the Catalyst to assume that synthetics will eventually destroy organics completely, then this would explain why it thinks that. But it's still wrong because the destruction of all organic life has never happened.

This post is winning.

[bo_7md]

Painaid wrote...

Your argument is nullified by the conscience developed by the Geth and EDI. Sorry, but the Starchild's logic has no place in the ME universe.

The Geth are too young if and when they see organic life as a danger they will kill everything and everyone. which is why the reapers only cull the advance races and leave the younger ones to live.

[dointime85]

Wildhide wrote...

dointime85 wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

KrabFace wrote...

Why are people trying to justify the logic?
It doesn't make sense. End of story

+1.

I've never needed to agree with "villain logic" before, and I don't now.

C-SEC Officer: "Why can't the Hanar act in an orderly fashion?"
Shep: "Because it's a big, stupid jellyfish."

ME Fans: "Why doesn't Reaper logic make sense."
Evil Minion: "Because they're a bunch of stupid, giant, metal squids."

Nobody justifies the logic, neither me nor the OP, all we're trying to say that it makes sense for an AI with a limited moral understanding and a limited understanding of human/Asari/Prothean/etc. nature to think that way. It's logic is horribly flawed and freaking genocidal bull****, no doubt about that!

And yet Bioware decided to just have Shepard agree with it and do exactly what it tells him to do like a good, little doggie.  Despite knowing this is essentially another Reaper (or their leader).  The lying, manipulating mostrousities wiping out the galaxy, Shepard just smiles and nods are the catalysts "logic" and goes to enact his favorite color of destruction on the galaxy.

The three things that ****** me off most about the ending are the Normandy Nonsense, Shepard suddenly not being Shepard to give up and do what the bad guy says (Since when does he surrender so easily?), and the fact Bioware thought after making a character driven game I'd not care about the fates of those same characters and the universe in favor of pseudo-philosophy that's completely out of place with the story and doesn't fit the theme.  Utterly tacked on and lazy.

Read above: The catalyst is not a "bad guy", it's a horribly flawed, limited AI which has lost control over the reapers (at least according to the November leak script). It has no intentions beyond executing its task, which is to provide a solution to the problem of technological singularity. Arguing with him is useless, because he doesn't understand why the reaper form cannot store the essence of organic life. And its out of function. The reapers will continue the cycle without him (again, too bad that this was cut from the original script) but Shepard can stop it in any of the three ways. The three choices are determined by the crucible and how many resources you managed to put into its built, they are not granted but simply explained by the catalyst. A conventional war cannot be won (as Hackett acknowledged).

Bioware totally managed to **** up this message after the final dialogue was shortened but if you understand this, then it makes as much sense to express your moral outrage with the catalyst as with a crash of your computer.

Modifié par dointime85, 24 mars 2012 - 09:21 .