374 réponses à ce sujet

[jvara]

terdferguson123 wrote...

I posted this in another thread, but I think it deserves it's own since so many are confused about this.

This post is going to explain why the Catalyst used the Reapers as a solution to prevent galactic extinction.
Before I continue, I want to make one thing very clear: in order to understand the logic of the Catalyst you need to think similarly to how a computer/AI would. With that said, if a computer is tasked with preventing Galactic extinction, it is going to do what is most MATHEMATICALLY probable to prevent it from happening, regardless of morals.

So, without further ado, here we go:


1.) The Catalyst explains to Shepard that it was tasked with preserving Galactic life, in order to do this it needs to destroy advanced civilizations via the Reapers before said advanced civilizations develop the means to destroy themselves and potentially destroy ALL of galactic life.

  A few points regarding number 1:

- Is it so hard to believe that organics, left to their own devices, may eventually create something that is       incredibly harmful to the galaxy? Look no further than what we as Humans have created in such a short span of time. Humans have existed on Earth for roughly 100 thousand years, we have been scientifically active for aroune 4000-5000 years, with scientific advancement speeding up rapidly in modern times. During this short span of time, we have developed the means to easily destroy ourselves (nuclear warfare), imagine what would happen if organics all over the galaxy were given the entire galactic life span to scientifically create things that may potentially harm and most definately eventually destroy all life.

- The Catalyst can easily see this self destructive behavior present in Organics (saying because Shepard united the Geth/Quarians is proof that the Catalyst is wrong is an incredibly silly argument, this is one example in a small time frame of galactic life, the galaxy has been around for close to 13 billions years)

2.) The Catalyst is a computer/AI, it only understands mathematics. The mathematics behind the probobility of organics destroying themselves eventaully is astounding, in turn, the Catalyst must do what is most mathematically efficient to prevent this from happening.

Points on number 2:

-The Catalyst sees that the most efficient way to reach it's goal is to never let advanced civilizations go long enough to allow this to happen. To do this, it uses the Reapers as a way to stop galactic extinction from happening, by destroying and harvesting advanced civilizations, this in turn gives the under-evolved life a chance to grow, until they themselves become powerful enough to create that which can destroy themselves.

3.) The catalsyst, Does. Not. Understand. Organic. Moral. Behavior. It cannot get any simpler than this. It does not believe that destroying advanced civilizations is wrong/right/moral/etc, becuase it lacks the ability to "believe" anything. It can only do what it is tasked to do, and that is prevent galactic extinction in the most mathematically efficient way that it can.

In conclusion, the Catalyst makes perfect sense with it's logic when given the perspective that it is only an AI/Computer/ or even a tool with a single purpose.

4.) Why does the Catalyst destroy the Mass Relays no matter what I choose?

     - Think of it this way: The Crucible is a backup plan in case the Reaper solution ever needs to be stopped. However, the Catalyst still must meet it's obligation to stop advanced organics from destroying all galactic life. The best way it can see to do this without the Reapers is to cut off all galactic ties via the destruction of the Mass Relays.

This thread was created specifically in reference to all those "Yo dawg we heard you don't want to be killed by synthetics" posters I see everywhere, who seem to think that the Catalyst's logic is flawed. That argument is stupid because it  ignores 2 very cruicial peices of information:

1.) The Catalyst does not think like an organic in any way
2.) The Catalyst is only destroying advanced organics as a means to prevent them from destroying themselves and ALL other galactic life.


EDIT:
This thread was not originally intent on explaining anythin but the Catalyst's ORIGINAL logic. After lots of posts stating "but why did it wake shepard up" etc. I want to make very clear, is that it is VERY possible (and what everyone should be reflecting on) that the Catalyst, upon seeing Shepard there who had united the Galaxy against the Reapers, had a moment of reflection about it's original premise possibly not being the best way. To look at it from a mathematical perspective, the variables had changed.

EDI shows us throughout the game that it is possible for an AI to change it's stance, although I don't think its very common (even Legion has one purpose, and will do anything to make it happen) This may have happened, and I think this is where the REAL speculation should be coming from.

I was going to answer your point one by one, but I see that I need just one:

I DO NOT CARE ONE BIT ABOUT THE AI'S STANCE. PERIOD. What I DO care about is Shepard's (a.k.a. MY) stance. MY proof, MY experience adn what BIOWARE showed ME es that this guy is utterly wrong and  I DO NOT ****ING agree with him, so his theory may be bullet proof in your eyes but it's not in mine so I just want to tell him to go **** himself off and walk away. PERIOD. But, guess what? I CAN'T.

[terdferguson123]

iamthedave3 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

Ummm so why not just wipe out the evil synthetics the organics create?

Because, given enough time, they could potentially create Synthetics more powerful than the Reapers. The best course of action that the Catalyst as a computer with no feelings for organics whatsoever, is to destroy the root of the problem before it can happen.

Okay, but here's the problem.

Why does the Catalyst then give Shepherd the option to Destroy? Why does it give Shepherd any options at all? If the Catalyst has already considered everything and believes it has found the mathematically correct solution, any outcome other than Synthesis should be dismissed out of hand. Shepherd cannot possibly do this job better than the catalyst, so why make the offer? Without the reapers, the creation/destruction process cannot be averted, so why give that option either?

By the time Shepard reaches that point on the Citadel, the Catalyst knows Shepard has won, at this point it's only option to try and preserve its goal is fire the crucible (preferably from the catalysts side to have shepard control or merge the dna) and destroy the mass effect relays preventing galactic communication and advancement for potentially millions of years.

Save that Shepherd doesn't even know how to fire the weapon. It isn't until the Catalyst gives Shepherd a guided tour of the local switchboxes that Shepherd has any idea how to operate the device.

That doesn't look like a losing prospect to me. The Catalyst hasn't lost until it literally tells Shepherd how to kill it.

I already stated that the Catalyst seems to have had a revelation by the time Shepard reaches it "The original plan will not work anymore", again this thread was meant to explain the ORIGINAL logic of the catalyst, (the one that set the Reapers in motion however long ago that was)

[emp6]

All logic of the Catalyst just fails when it uses the word chaos. It's definition of chaos is not clearly stated. It is leading nowhere.

[dointime85]

terdferguson123 wrote...

ShaneP wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

I posted this in another thread, but I think it deserves it's own since so many are confused about this.

This post is going to explain why the Catalyst used the Reapers as a solution to prevent galactic extinction.
Before I continue, I want to make one thing very clear: in order to understand the logic of the Catalyst you need to think similarly to how a computer/AI would. With that said, if a computer is tasked with preventing Galactic extinction, it is going to do what is most MATHEMATICALLY probable to prevent it from happening, regardless of morals.

The point, however that is missed by this ending is that the catalyst is acting as if it's actions are merciful, when in fact it is quite happy to mercilessly slaughter any organics that provide resistance to it's plans. The logical thing to do would be for the reapers to periodically purge the galaxy of any overly advanced AI technology, not to purge it of organic races.

1.) The Catalyst explains to Shepard that it was tasked with preserving Galactic life, in order to do this it needs to destroy advanced civilizations via the Reapers before said advanced civilizations develop the means to destroy themselves and potentially destroy ALL of galactic life.

  A few points regarding number 1:

- Is it so hard to believe that organics, left to their own devices, may eventually create something that is       incredibly harmful to the galaxy? Look no further than what we as Humans have created in such a short span of time. Humans have existed on Earth for roughly 100 thousand years, we have been scientifically active for aroune 4000-5000 years, with scientific advancement speeding up rapidly in modern times. During this short span of time, we have developed the means to easily destroy ourselves (nuclear warfare), imagine what would happen if organics all over the galaxy were given the entire galactic life span to scientifically create things that may potentially harm and most definately eventually destroy all life.

- The Catalyst can easily see this self destructive behavior present in Organics (saying because Shepard united the Geth/Quarians is proof that the Catalyst is wrong is an incredibly silly argument, this is one example in a small time frame of galactic life, the galaxy has been around for close to 13 billions years)

That still doesn't answer one simple question: What the hell right a machine or group of machines have to make these decisions for us. The purpose of machines is to serve their creators, not to destroy organic life. Organic life by it's very nature has the potential to be destructive even without hazardous AI experiments because of the way we consume resources just to maintain our species. I for one believe that we're likely on earth (in reality I mean not in the ME universe) to run out of resources long before our AI technology rises up and kills us all.

The very nature of evolution and natural selection is destructive, and to destroy organic life for that very reason is just fallacious.

2.) The Catalyst is a computer/AI, it only understands mathematics. The mathematics behind the probobility of organics destroying themselves eventaully is astounding, in turn, the Catalyst must do what is most mathematically efficient to prevent this from happening.

Points on number 2:

-The Catalyst sees that the most efficient way to reach it's goal is to never let advanced civilizations go long enough to allow this to happen. To do this, it uses the Reapers as a way to stop galactic extinction from happening, by destroying and harvesting advanced civilizations, this in turn gives the under-evolved life a chance to grow, until they themselves become powerful enough to create that which can destroy themselves.

Again, though, how the hell can you apply mathematical answers to a non mathematical problem? It's made quite plain that the reapers are completely unable to feel empathy or compassion. You cannot apply such black and white reasoning to life, if you did the world would be a very bleak place. The universe is massive, it has forces that simply cannot be controlled, not even by machines as powerful as the reapers. That kind of logic may fly in a game, but as our race often finds out to it's cost there are always unforseen consequences to tampering with the natural order things. And that is what the reapers are in effect doing.

3.) The catalsyst, Does. Not. Understand. Organic. Moral. Behavior. It cannot get any simpler than this. It does not believe that destroying advanced civilizations is wrong/right/moral/etc, becuase it lacks the ability to "believe" anything. It can only do what it is tasked to do, and that is prevent galactic extinction in the most mathematically efficient way that it can.

In conclusion, the Catalyst makes perfect sense with it's logic when given the perspective that it is only an AI/Computer/ or even a tool with a single purpose.

Which, again is an argument that doesn't work, because a computer or anything incapable of feeling emotion should not be making decisions that it cannot fully comprehend the ramifications of. The catalyst's logic may make sense to itself, but the fact that organic civilisations have constantly rebelled against the reapers suggests that it's logic does not fly with any organic beings. As human beings we know better than perhaps any other species on earth that there are just some situations in which cold logic just doesn't fly. Yes, AI destruction is a possibility, but so are many, MANY other bad things. What right does an outside force have to interfere in that? the logical thing to do is to let nature run it's course.

4.) Why does the Catalyst destroy the Mass Relays no matter what I choose?

     - Think of it this way: The Crucible is a backup plan in case the Reaper solution ever needs to be stopped. However, the Catalyst still must meet it's obligation to stop advanced organics from destroying all galactic life. The best way it can see to do this without the Reapers is to cut off all galactic ties via the destruction of the Mass Relays.

This thread was created specifically in reference to all those "Yo dawg we heard you don't want to be killed by synthetics" posters I see everywhere, who seem to think that the Catalyst's logic is flawed. That argument is stupid because it  ignores 2 very cruicial peices of information:

1.) The Catalyst does not think like an organic in any way
2.) The Catalyst is only destroying advanced organics as a means to prevent them from destroying themselves and ALL other galactic life.

The catalyst doesn't destroy the mass relays, the energy released through the crucible does. And actually, when you think about it the mass relay network could be argued to be the reason why so many advanced races are able to become as advanced as they do. Without the mass effect technology, even the most advanced races would be most likely to be confined to the planet or star system that they reside in. Which would make the likelihood of any AI technology that they create making it to another part of the galaxy remote at best.

The other point is that whilst the reapers created the Mass relays, it has been inferred a couple of times that the Protheans were very close to mastering the technology, as were the Asari. So the destruction of the relays isn't as much of a mitigating factor as you make out.

Ultimately though, the system of mass relays pretty much guarantees that any race that becomes advanced enough WILL spread throughout the galaxy which effectively exacerbates the problem that the reapers claim to be the solution to.

I agree, but the problem that a lot of people seemed to miss is that the Catalyst is in essence the "villain" of the entire series. It is an AI that solved the problem of galactic extinction, but it goes about it in the most warped possible way. The problem is that by the time it may have realized it's wrong doings (thats to be speculated, but he did wake Shepard up) was too late, it's back up plan, The Crucible, was already created as a way to further press the "reset" button.

It's the Crucible which opened up the new possibilities. They were non-existent for the catalyst as a program, before.

[Bantz]

also I agree with what a lot of people have said. The logic is false simply because shep HADN'T won until the spacechild tells him how to win. He's laying there dying and the spacebrat says "oh by the way if you use your magic unlimited ammo gun and shoot that box all reapers die. If it honestly believed it's logic was the best path it would have just let shep die and continue the cycle. By choosing to wake him up it violated any sense of logic. It could have destroyed the fleet and all evidence of the Crucible and moved on.

[Welsh Inferno]

dointime85 wrote...

Ariq wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

"The answer is 'yes,' Legion."

I refute you thusly.

That's the interesting thing, it implies that the catalyst is actually less developed than Legion and Edi in that department. It hasn't gotten the same input that Edi gets in ME3 for example.

True. EDI and the Geth have had time to talk to organics to understand us. And us likewise understand them a little better. I'm betting that the Catylyst was created right at the end of the civilization of the race that built him. Built for a singular purpose with no interaction with organics for at least 2 billion years. Lonely bugger 

[dointime85]

terdferguson123 wrote...

I already stated that the Catalyst seems to have had a revelation by the time Shepard reaches it "The original plan will not work anymore", again this thread was meant to explain the ORIGINAL logic of the catalyst, (the one that set the Reapers in motion however long ago that was)

Again, in the original Script it says "The crucible has altered my function. I can't proceed anymore" which makes a lot more sense than saying "It also proves that my solution doesn't work anymore".

[DrFrankenseuss]

Didn't Javik say there was a synthetic life that existed in his time too? Where did they go?

[Darknessfalls23]

One of problems I see with the technological singularity ending, is the Ranchi Queen said the Reapers were afraid of something. The Technological Singularity threat doesn't seem like a real threat to me its like being a afraid the solar system runs into a small black hole and is destroyed. It could happen but meh.

[Zix13]

Circular logic is circular logic. A machine would recognize that.

[PsydonZero]

Ziggeh wrote...

PsydonZero wrote...

Thus I present my counterargument to you: a simple Visual Basic program.

Premise A: Synthetics will always kill organics irrespective of context or motivation.
Action 0: Harvest the galaxy with the Reapers.
Action 1: Do not harvest the galaxy with the Reapers.

IF A = TRUE THEN 0.
ELSE 1.

That's not a counter argument to his position. His point is that they have decided that A = TRUE.

(END IF)

That is exactly why it is a counter-argument. Premise A, the fundamental idea behind the Catalyst's actions, is false. No machine mind, driven entirely by logic, assuming no glitches in its programming, could possibly formulate the conclusion that A = TRUE, if for no other reason than that the premise cannot be verified.

[terdferguson123]

jvara wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

I posted this in another thread, but I think it deserves it's own since so many are confused about this.

This post is going to explain why the Catalyst used the Reapers as a solution to prevent galactic extinction.
Before I continue, I want to make one thing very clear: in order to understand the logic of the Catalyst you need to think similarly to how a computer/AI would. With that said, if a computer is tasked with preventing Galactic extinction, it is going to do what is most MATHEMATICALLY probable to prevent it from happening, regardless of morals.

So, without further ado, here we go:


1.) The Catalyst explains to Shepard that it was tasked with preserving Galactic life, in order to do this it needs to destroy advanced civilizations via the Reapers before said advanced civilizations develop the means to destroy themselves and potentially destroy ALL of galactic life.

  A few points regarding number 1:

- Is it so hard to believe that organics, left to their own devices, may eventually create something that is       incredibly harmful to the galaxy? Look no further than what we as Humans have created in such a short span of time. Humans have existed on Earth for roughly 100 thousand years, we have been scientifically active for aroune 4000-5000 years, with scientific advancement speeding up rapidly in modern times. During this short span of time, we have developed the means to easily destroy ourselves (nuclear warfare), imagine what would happen if organics all over the galaxy were given the entire galactic life span to scientifically create things that may potentially harm and most definately eventually destroy all life.

- The Catalyst can easily see this self destructive behavior present in Organics (saying because Shepard united the Geth/Quarians is proof that the Catalyst is wrong is an incredibly silly argument, this is one example in a small time frame of galactic life, the galaxy has been around for close to 13 billions years)

2.) The Catalyst is a computer/AI, it only understands mathematics. The mathematics behind the probobility of organics destroying themselves eventaully is astounding, in turn, the Catalyst must do what is most mathematically efficient to prevent this from happening.

Points on number 2:

-The Catalyst sees that the most efficient way to reach it's goal is to never let advanced civilizations go long enough to allow this to happen. To do this, it uses the Reapers as a way to stop galactic extinction from happening, by destroying and harvesting advanced civilizations, this in turn gives the under-evolved life a chance to grow, until they themselves become powerful enough to create that which can destroy themselves.

3.) The catalsyst, Does. Not. Understand. Organic. Moral. Behavior. It cannot get any simpler than this. It does not believe that destroying advanced civilizations is wrong/right/moral/etc, becuase it lacks the ability to "believe" anything. It can only do what it is tasked to do, and that is prevent galactic extinction in the most mathematically efficient way that it can.

In conclusion, the Catalyst makes perfect sense with it's logic when given the perspective that it is only an AI/Computer/ or even a tool with a single purpose.

4.) Why does the Catalyst destroy the Mass Relays no matter what I choose?

     - Think of it this way: The Crucible is a backup plan in case the Reaper solution ever needs to be stopped. However, the Catalyst still must meet it's obligation to stop advanced organics from destroying all galactic life. The best way it can see to do this without the Reapers is to cut off all galactic ties via the destruction of the Mass Relays.

This thread was created specifically in reference to all those "Yo dawg we heard you don't want to be killed by synthetics" posters I see everywhere, who seem to think that the Catalyst's logic is flawed. That argument is stupid because it  ignores 2 very cruicial peices of information:

1.) The Catalyst does not think like an organic in any way
2.) The Catalyst is only destroying advanced organics as a means to prevent them from destroying themselves and ALL other galactic life.


EDIT:
This thread was not originally intent on explaining anythin but the Catalyst's ORIGINAL logic. After lots of posts stating "but why did it wake shepard up" etc. I want to make very clear, is that it is VERY possible (and what everyone should be reflecting on) that the Catalyst, upon seeing Shepard there who had united the Galaxy against the Reapers, had a moment of reflection about it's original premise possibly not being the best way. To look at it from a mathematical perspective, the variables had changed.

EDI shows us throughout the game that it is possible for an AI to change it's stance, although I don't think its very common (even Legion has one purpose, and will do anything to make it happen) This may have happened, and I think this is where the REAL speculation should be coming from.

I was going to answer your point one by one, but I see that I need just one:

I DO NOT CARE ONE BIT ABOUT THE AI'S STANCE. PERIOD. What I DO care about is Shepard's (a.k.a. MY) stance. MY proof, MY experience adn what BIOWARE showed ME es that this guy is utterly wrong and  I DO NOT ****ING agree with him, so his theory may be bullet proof in your eyes but it's not in mine so I just want to tell him to go **** himself off and walk away. PERIOD. But, guess what? I CAN'T.

I agree, the Catalyst is wrong, but Shepard does not have the option of telling it off. Defeating the Reapers conventionally is not realistic, he pretty much has to do what the Catalyst sais at this point or else the cycle will just continue to repeat itself.

I understand your frustration that the option isn't their, but look at it from this perspective:

Paragon Shepard and Renegade Shepard have the SAME goal, and will both do what it takes to get their (defeat the Reapers), if the only option is to defeat the Reapers, the only thing that remains is what way to go about doing it that is most in line with morals, but still accomplishes the goal. If firing the crucible is the only way to defeat them, then choosing what function the crucible will use is the only Paragon/Renegade choice available.

[Welsh Inferno]

dointime85 wrote...

It's the Crucible which opened up the new possibilities. They were non-existent for the catalyst as a program, before.

To be honest for the Crucible to make any sense, its original plans have to have been made by the same race who created the Citadel. Which is probably the original race of the Reapers. 

[Atmospeer]

Bantz wrote...

Atmospeer wrote...

Bantz wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

Ummm so why not just wipe out the evil synthetics the organics create?

exactly, if reapers showed up to destroy the geth and only the geth because of the possible threat they could be to organics in the future I'd fight to protect the geth (in honor of legion) but i'd undestand it. But the idea that Organics might create synthetics that might in turn someday possibly destroy organics therefor an army of synthetics must wipe out organics to protect them from being destroyed by the synthetics they might someday create is a weak and poorly thought out conclusion no matter how you try to reason it.

Atmospeer wrote...

Because organics will progress and in time can make synthetics more advanced than Reapers, how can they wipe them out then?

 

Reapers aren't synthetic. Secondly you describe it as if they're protecting every organic being, that's not what they're doing, they're preserving the existence of organic life in general.

by liquifying people and turning us into a giant human robot? (which is at least partially synthetic, i'll grant you that reapers aren't 100% synthetic but they are a mix of the two) How is that "preserving"? It's slaughering entire races so you can make more half/half creatures so you can grow your army and come back 50k years later to do it over. Not to mention a lot of reapers are destroyed in the process which means those races that were slaughtered to create those reapers are now lost and no longer "preserved". 

This logic makes about as much sense as me saying,  I really like lions, so to protect lions I'm going to go out, round up all lions, KILL THEM ALL, and have them stuffed and put into a museum so that people can remember what Lions were. See they've been preserved nicely.

They are preserving THE EXISTENCE of organic life, without the cycle there would be no organic life, only synthetic.

And no, that is a terrible analogy. A better one would be something like... I like animals, to keep animals alive we must destroy any types of animal that could directly or indirectly destroy the existence of ALL animals.

[chkchkchk]

Evil Minion wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

SOVEREIGN SAYS: The Reapers left behind mass relays (etc) so that organics would develop along the paths the Reapers desire. So if the whole point is to stop organics from creating synthetics, why do the Reapers cause organics to develop into civilizations that create synthetics.

IT IS COMPLETE GIBBERISH.

Because developing synthetic life is inevitable when organic civilization reaches a certain point; therefore, Reapers "guide" technological evolution and when a certain level of technological advancement is reached, they "harvest" said civilization while leaving lesser developed races alone.

Most likely, the Reapers were invented by an organic who thought this was a good idea and The Reapers, being machines, are unable to change their programming; hence, stupid logic.

Unless my mind is totally broken, I recall the Reapers left behind the Citadel and the mass relays, right?  So shouldn't the Reapers have left behind technology that somewhat discouraged creation of synthetics?  Or shouldn't they have just not left anything at all and found a way to keep organics in a pre-spaceflight state?

What makes far more sense is that the Reapers left behind this technology to create a vast galactic genocide farm that would provide material for the fight against dark energy expansion.  Sort of like the ending Drew came up with, which was foreshadowed in previous games and later ditched.

[omntt]

Op i'm sorry but i have to say that after 5 pages i still find the starchild to be either a liar or a retard...

[dointime85]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

dointime85 wrote...

It's the Crucible which opened up the new possibilities. They were non-existent for the catalyst as a program, before.

To be honest for the Crucible to make any sense, its original plans have to have been made by the same race who created the Citadel. Which is probably the original race of the Reapers. 

Yes, that's what I thought, too. Speculation from everyone!

[defenestrated]

terdferguson123 wrote...

I already stated that the Catalyst seems to have had a revelation by the time Shepard reaches it "The original plan will not work anymore", again this thread was meant to explain the ORIGINAL logic of the catalyst, (the one that set the Reapers in motion however long ago that was)

Again, if this is true then why does he warn Shepard not to pick 'destroy'?

[Evil Minion]

iamthedave3 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

Ummm so why not just wipe out the evil synthetics the organics create?

Because, given enough time, they could potentially create Synthetics more powerful than the Reapers. The best course of action that the Catalyst as a computer with no feelings for organics whatsoever, is to destroy the root of the problem before it can happen.

Okay, but here's the problem.

Why does the Catalyst then give Shepherd the option to Destroy? Why does it give Shepherd any options at all? If the Catalyst has already considered everything and believes it has found the mathematically correct solution, any outcome other than Synthesis should be dismissed out of hand. Shepherd cannot possibly do this job better than the catalyst, so why make the offer? Without the reapers, the creation/destruction process cannot be averted, so why give that option either?

By the time Shepard reaches that point on the Citadel, the Catalyst knows Shepard has won, at this point it's only option to try and preserve its goal is fire the crucible (preferably from the catalysts side to have shepard control or merge the dna) and destroy the mass effect relays preventing galactic communication and advancement for potentially millions of years.

Save that Shepherd doesn't even know how to fire the weapon. It isn't until the Catalyst gives Shepherd a guided tour of the local switchboxes that Shepherd has any idea how to operate the device.

That doesn't look like a losing prospect to me. The Catalyst hasn't lost until it literally tells Shepherd how to kill it.

My interpretation is that GhostKid is really just an AI who's running off of faulty "programming."

It can't intiate changes to its own programming, even if it doesn't necessarily agree with the results of said programming, which is why it needs Shep to pull the switch.

It needs Shep because it's a big, stupid, mechanical squid.

[Welsh Inferno]

omntt wrote...

Op i'm sorry but i have to say that after 5 pages i still find the starchild to be either a liar or a retard...

I'm going with flawed AI. 

Makes the ending feel a little better. Just a little.

[EnforcerWRX7]

I just don't understand why they ditched the original dark matter plot. That actually made sense and they could have put some sound science behind it.

And yes, the Catalyst logic is completely flawed because it assume synthetics will always destroy organics. It catalyst (and the reapers) are a system out of control.

Why does it seem the left hand is not talking to the right hand at bioware?

[terdferguson123]

Bantz wrote...

also I agree with what a lot of people have said. The logic is false simply because shep HADN'T won until the spacechild tells him how to win. He's laying there dying and the spacebrat says "oh by the way if you use your magic unlimited ammo gun and shoot that box all reapers die. If it honestly believed it's logic was the best path it would have just let shep die and continue the cycle. By choosing to wake him up it violated any sense of logic. It could have destroyed the fleet and all evidence of the Crucible and moved on.

Let me state it again, even though its in the original post. This thread, explains the Catalyst's original logic (the logic that it used when it created the Reapers as a solution however long ago that was) by the time Shepard reaches the Crucible, it's stance has changed, this is alluded to by EDI, that an AI can eventually change over time. This is why the Catalyst wakes Shepard up and explains what he can do.

[Bantz]

terdferguson123 wrote...

I agree, the Catalyst is wrong, but Shepard does not have the option of telling it off. Defeating the Reapers conventionally is not realistic, he pretty much has to do what the Catalyst sais at this point or else the cycle will just continue to repeat itself.

I understand your frustration that the option isn't their, but look at it from this perspective:

Paragon Shepard and Renegade Shepard have the SAME goal, and will both do what it takes to get their (defeat the Reapers), if the only option is to defeat the Reapers, the only thing that remains is what way to go about doing it that is most in line with morals, but still accomplishes the goal. If firing the crucible is the only way to defeat them, then choosing what function the crucible will use is the only Paragon/Renegade choice available.

and there is the issue most of us, and i'd wager all of us, have with the ending. It nullifies any choices you made throughout the game because you SHOULD have the option of winning with a bigger fleet. Gathering all the armies in the galaxy to fight should be enough to win and give you the option to tell spacebrat to f off. Instead all the choices we've made throughout the 3 games get shoehorned into picka  color any color.

[defenestrated]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

I'm going with flawed AI. 

Makes the ending feel a little better. Just a little.

It would make me feel better if Shepard argued. Which doesn't happen. Instead it's, "Oh, these are the three options I have, guy who created the Reaper cycle? Okay, I'll get on that."