Hey guys, I've been mulling over a thought I had about the relationship between the Reapers and the Catalyst and the way the ending unfolds (and the way the Reapers/Catalyst tie into ME1 and 2 by extension).
You get the impression from the conversations with Sovereign and Harbinger that each Reaper is a sentient autonomous individual, with a unique personality, however the Catalyst conversation and the climax scene have made me question whether or not this is the case. The Catalyst tells you that he controls the Reapers, and in the synthesis or destroy ending the Reapers just sort of leave assumedly on orders from the Catalyst.
But if the Catalyst (or Shepard in the control ending) can simply "make them go away" by willing it so, how autonomous can the Reapers really be? Can they be compared to an indoctrinated Saren or TIM, ie still in possesion of their own personality but completely subservient to a dominating higher power, or do they just follow orders from their leader in the same way Shepard takes orders from Admiral Hackett.
Or could it be possible that we've been talking to the Catalyst the entire time, simply using the Reapers as mouthpieces?
Are the Reapers Sentient?
Débuté par
dgumb
, mars 24 2012 07:29
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#3
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:34
Grasich
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Just one more reason the catalyst was a poor choice. It really downgrades the Reapers themselves.
#4
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:36
Geirahod
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They were sentient...
but thanks to the catalyst crap they were reduced as dummy tools with the purpose that the idiot StarChild gives them.
but thanks to the catalyst crap they were reduced as dummy tools with the purpose that the idiot StarChild gives them.
#5
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:37
Evil_medved
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They are shackled like EDI was in ME2, so they can think but very limited in their actions.
Modifié par Evil_medved, 24 mars 2012 - 07:37 .
#6
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:37
legion999
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So they preserve a species in an immortal body then take away it's free will. Wonderful. More reasons to hate the Catalyst.
Modifié par legion999, 24 mars 2012 - 07:38 .
#7
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:39
Pottumuusi
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legion999 wrote...
So they preserve a species in an immortal body then take away it's free will. Wonderful. More reasons to hate the Catalyst.
And I must scream.
#8
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:39
Alexraptor1
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As much as I hate all the catalyst crap, I think they probally are.
The Catalyst's control of the reapers could be something so subtle like a low-level process that compels them to harvest organics every 50k years, like an instinctual urge, or even like a post-hypnotic suggestion.
So while they exist for a purpose, they may themselves still believe that they are what they say that they are.
That said, I still don't like how they created the stupid catalyst to hold their chain, and its explanation for their existance.
I like it better when the reapers were shrouded in mystery, beyond our understanding and unknowable as Vigil called them.
The Catalyst's control of the reapers could be something so subtle like a low-level process that compels them to harvest organics every 50k years, like an instinctual urge, or even like a post-hypnotic suggestion.
So while they exist for a purpose, they may themselves still believe that they are what they say that they are.
That said, I still don't like how they created the stupid catalyst to hold their chain, and its explanation for their existance.
I like it better when the reapers were shrouded in mystery, beyond our understanding and unknowable as Vigil called them.
Modifié par Alexraptor1, 24 mars 2012 - 07:47 .
#9
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:40
RustyMcBlade
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I hope Bioware find a way to fix this in the future DLC. Let each reaper be a fully self aware evil piece of bad assery machine!
#10
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:46
dgumb
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Good responses, on reflection I should have said "do they have free will" rather than "are they sentient" in my OP, as that gets a lot closer to what I was trying to say.
I would say they are sentient, but my thoughts have led me to question whether they have free will or not. It would seem to me that they don't have free will. Or if they do it's more akin to indoctrinated TIM or Saren rather that being truly autonomous.
This actually bothered me, because as Alexraptor1 said I prefered when they were beyond comprehension. To reduce them to mere puppets really takes away from their gravitas in my opinion.
I would say they are sentient, but my thoughts have led me to question whether they have free will or not. It would seem to me that they don't have free will. Or if they do it's more akin to indoctrinated TIM or Saren rather that being truly autonomous.
This actually bothered me, because as Alexraptor1 said I prefered when they were beyond comprehension. To reduce them to mere puppets really takes away from their gravitas in my opinion.
Modifié par dgumb, 24 mars 2012 - 07:47 .
#11
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:46
papality
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Are the Reapers Sentient?
stay tuned for DLC to find out! and don't forget to keep your wallets open
stay tuned for DLC to find out! and don't forget to keep your wallets open
#13
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:48
Merengues 1945
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Yup, the catalyst just kills the incredible foe that the reapers represented... All that speeches from Nazara, Harbinger and the Rannoch Reaper were just futile and empty word because in the end they were slaves and just puppets of an VI (wich is even more offensive.. who was th stuipid dude who came with the idea of giving the command of the reapers to an absolute obtuse AI)
#14
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:49
rma2110
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We are each a nation. Independant. Oh, wait.
#15
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:51
dgumb
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Evil_medved wrote...
They are shackled like EDI was in ME2, so they can think but very limited in their actions.
That makes sense, or is plausible anyway. It's disappointing though. The Catalyst really screwed things up in a big way for me lol.
#17
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:55
Grasich
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Merengues 1945 wrote...
Yup, the catalyst just kills the incredible foe that the reapers represented... All that speeches from Nazara, Harbinger and the Rannoch Reaper were just futile and empty word because in the end they were slaves and just puppets of an VI (wich is even more offensive.. who was th stuipid dude who came with the idea of giving the command of the reapers to an absolute obtuse AI)
This. Independent monstrosities killing and slaughtering of their own free will are a lot more intimidating than the pets of some AI kid.
#18
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 07:57
Sparse
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In ME1 and 2 they were. Sovereign got very angry when you challenged him and Harbinger was fairly grumpy and stalking Shepard.
God knows what they were supposed to be by the end, a kid's puppet show??
God knows what they were supposed to be by the end, a kid's puppet show??
#19
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 08:00
jess05
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So if the catalyst is what casues the reapers to do what they do ...
Why didnt Shepard just tell the fleets to blow up the Citadel?
Problem Solved.
Sure, he'd die ... and may cause alot of damage to Earth because of debris but the relays would be OK, the Reapers could go about thier merry way, and most everyone lives.
Why didnt Shepard just tell the fleets to blow up the Citadel?
Problem Solved.
Sure, he'd die ... and may cause alot of damage to Earth because of debris but the relays would be OK, the Reapers could go about thier merry way, and most everyone lives.
Modifié par jess05, 24 mars 2012 - 08:01 .
#20
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 08:01
dgumb
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Any thoughts on the last sentence of my OP?
Could it be possible that we've been talking to the Catalyst the entire time? This is actually a more comfortable idea for me. He does say the attaching the Crucible has changed him. Perhaps it causes him to "rethink" his "solution" and therefore to have the face to face with Shepard. I'd rather it be that than making the Reapers into puppets of a crazed AI.
Could it be possible that we've been talking to the Catalyst the entire time? This is actually a more comfortable idea for me. He does say the attaching the Crucible has changed him. Perhaps it causes him to "rethink" his "solution" and therefore to have the face to face with Shepard. I'd rather it be that than making the Reapers into puppets of a crazed AI.
#21
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 08:02
jess05
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I dont think so.
Soverign was a intelligent and intimidating.
Catalyst made no sense, flawed logic ... a idiot.
Soverign was a intelligent and intimidating.
Catalyst made no sense, flawed logic ... a idiot.
Modifié par jess05, 24 mars 2012 - 08:03 .
#23
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 08:03
Grasich
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dgumb wrote...
Any thoughts on the last sentence of my OP?
Could it be possible that we've been talking to the Catalyst the entire time? This is actually a more comfortable idea for me. He does say the attaching the Crucible has changed him. Perhaps it causes him to "rethink" his "solution" and therefore to have the face to face with Shepard. I'd rather it be that than making the Reapers into puppets of a crazed AI.
I would say no. Harbinger and Sovereign had slightly different personalities. The way I see it as them being just slaves of the Catalyst. Not puppets, but unable to act of their own free will never-the-less.
#24
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 08:04
Sparse
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dgumb wrote...
Any thoughts on the last sentence of my OP?
Could it be possible that we've been talking to the Catalyst the entire time? This is actually a more comfortable idea for me. He does say the attaching the Crucible has changed him. Perhaps it causes him to "rethink" his "solution" and therefore to have the face to face with Shepard. I'd rather it be that than making the Reapers into puppets of a crazed AI.
It would make more sense certainly that it was just one being the whole time and it appeared as a kid to try and manipulate you when you were on the verge of victory. However there would've had to have been a reveal and not the total obliteration of the galaxy if you pick the destroy option for that to fly I think.
Modifié par Sparse, 24 mars 2012 - 08:08 .
#25
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 08:06
SweetDaddySiki
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From what i understand the reapers consist of billions of digitised minds existing in virtual form.
Perhaps there is one overmind that controls the actual reaper itself, a kind of master control program.
Or perhaps the digitised minds don't even realise they are digitised and exist in a virtual universe without knowing it. While the reaper itself is controlled by a master control program. (hrmm...this makes me wonder if the 'synthesis' ending is just the perceptions of the virtual world by the newly digitised minds....)
Or perhaps the minds of the digitised species are subtly reprogrammed to comply with the agenda of the Catalyst.
Perhaps there is one overmind that controls the actual reaper itself, a kind of master control program.
Or perhaps the digitised minds don't even realise they are digitised and exist in a virtual universe without knowing it. While the reaper itself is controlled by a master control program. (hrmm...this makes me wonder if the 'synthesis' ending is just the perceptions of the virtual world by the newly digitised minds....)
Or perhaps the minds of the digitised species are subtly reprogrammed to comply with the agenda of the Catalyst.
