367 réponses à ce sujet

[Deltateam Elcor]

The indoctrination theory isnt an ending for one, it is simply a solution to the problem of the ending's.

No one here knows how to actually make an ending without it being cliché, too simple, too complex or simply just too artificial.

Any self respecting writer, will always look at the usual endings to stories and cry because its that damn difficult to create one that is unique. It is that much harder when you have to incorporate it into a game about choice, so that is a minimum of two different endings atleast, its simply impossible.

They just have to flesh it out as much as they can, i just don't see how they can end it without it being simple, perhaps that's the best route, at least if they choose to go with indoctrination, they can say that they did at least something unique in a story, i don't think you can experience this sort of analysis and scale of imagination in other mediums of media.

Modifié par Deltateam Elcor, 25 mars 2012 - 02:59 .

[Hunter_Wolf]

Dreogan wrote...
Gold-star bonus: don't ask me to disprove. That's known as 'unfair burden" and logically impossible.

It's also logically impossible to ascertain evidence that in no way is obtainable. So again, waste of time. What's the point?

You're explaining the color of an apple to a blind person.

Modifié par Hunter_Wolf, 25 mars 2012 - 02:59 .

[Kylie Nightbreeze]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

I still dont get why you that that having the hero who has fought the reapers for three games suddenly being mind***ked by them only to break from it to beat them is crazy. IT is actually brilliant and will make for brilliant drama, that ME is known for, plus the indoctrination fallss in line with what the reapers do for crying out loud.

It is not briliant it is a cheap fix, and that's it. It requires no explination other than: Shepard was indoctronated in the last few seconds of their fight on earth the end, and that is a worse ending then what we have already.

[Hunter_Wolf]

Deltateam Elcor wrote...
No one here knows how to actually make an ending without it being cliché... 

The ending of ME1 was pretty cliche'. So if that has people worried, "Mass Effect isn't cliche'!" well I don't know how best to tell them but.....

[Vromrig]

Gold-star bonus: don't ask me to disprove. That's known as 'unfair burden" and logically impossible.

Inability to grasp logic. Unsurprising. Part and parcel to hatred of Indoctrination Theory.

[Dreogan]

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

Dreogan wrote...
Gold-star bonus: don't ask me to disprove. That's known as 'unfair burden" and logically impossible.

It's also logically impossible to ascertain evidence that in no way is obtainable. So again, waste of time. What's the point?

You're explaining the color of an apple to a blind person.

What I am saying is I can ask you to prove yourself, but you cannot ask me to disprove you.

The assertion that "DLC is coming to finish the indoctrination theory" is based on... speculation. 
The assertion that "Indoctrination is the cleanest way for the development team" is based on... speculation.
The assertion that "Indoctrination is the easiest way for the development team" is based on... speculation.
The assertion that "Indoctrination is the only way that will make sense" is based on... speculation.
The core assertion that Shepard is indoctrinated is based on... speculation.

All of the above are speculation because we are not developers, and we do not have access to the entire story, legendium, side-stories, or simply the access to create explanations ex nihilo. We pay the Gods to create the universe of Mass Effect, but we are not its gods.

Modifié par Dreogan, 25 mars 2012 - 03:20 .

[J717]

Dreogan wrote...

J717 wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

J717 wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is not the friggin' ending.

People need to get that through their heads. If the IT is to be believed, it means we haven't actually seen the ending(s) yet - which means Shepard can continue fighting, and BioWare can actually implement an ending wherein we get closure, answers and is something a million times better than the garbage we got.

No I don't, but what I do have is info gathered from playing all three games, and the fact that Shep died in the beging of ME2 kills the slow Indoc theory cold. I doubt that being revived from the dead would cause the Indoc to still be there.

Um, no. He was completely blasted by Object Rho's energy in Arrival - and that was immediately before the events of ME3.

I'll say it again; all Indoc. Theory would do is wipe out everything after the beam and Marauder Shields...which is pretty much what everyone wants, regardless of if you support IT or not.

Finally...THE INDOCTRINATION THEORY IS NOT THE ENDING. PERIOD.

False hope for ending DLC. Pics or it didn't happen, etc etc.

It's called a theory; I didn't say it was something that's true or could be proven without a shadow of a doubt. I merely explained that some people in this thread, including the OP, seem to be ignorant to the idea of reading comprehension. The Indoctrination Theory would NOT be the ending. You wake up, and then BioWare continues the rest of the game with something none of us have actually seen yet.

Indoctrination Theory is just that, a theory (again, reading comprehension really helps here, folks - it's called a "theory" for a reason...it isn't fact) - but it's one that wipes out everything after the Beam, and would give BioWare the "cleanest" way to change everything after that without completely dismantling what already happened during the rest of the game. No one needs pics - if it is to be believed or supported, all one has to do is perceive the hints and clues throughout the game in that way. 

Personally, I see both arguments that IT is both grapsing at straws and is entirely believable - a lot of things just fit right for BioWare to run with it as an outlet to make a new or revised ending.

I honestly thought after Shepard got up from the beam blast and the radio said no one had made it to the Conduit (and the deliberate showing of Harbinger just bouncing the scene) that it was just a dream; everything seemed "off," and while I thought nothing of Indoctrination Theory at that point, I was entirely convinced it was a dream, especially when things got weirder and made no sense at all once you got inside and then after you met Starchild...needless to say, I was pissed beyond belief when I didn't just "Wake up" from that dream.

I do agree indoctrination is a theory, but I simply find too many people giving this theory too much weight. It is possible, but people would be crushed if Bioware decides to go its own way. We 've already discussed indoctrination being one of many ways Bioware can "fix" the ending, and I simply don't agree it is the "cleanest" way for them to do this. For all we know, they might have an ace in the hole we would never see coming-- they are the author, after all.

I don't think IT-believers are discounting that BioWare has something in the hole - it's just that, of whatever other theories are out there, IT is the most popular since it fits little nuances in the game in ways that make more sense.

It's also entirely possible that the ending is just complete garbage and Indoctrination Theory and whatever else people come up with would have just been giving BioWare too much credit to pull off.

To be perfectly honest, I really don't care if it's indoctrination, a dream, hallucination, PTSD, or Shepard got high off of the beam and imagined things - I just want some friggin' answers, I want explanations and I want closure - regardless of how BioWare presents that information. But I know that I definitely lost the love for the franchise and any desire to replay the series if i'm to be met with the ending(s) as they currently are right now.

Modifié par J717, 25 mars 2012 - 03:04 .

[KevShep]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

I still dont get why you that that having the hero who has fought the reapers for three games suddenly being mind***ked by them only to break from it to beat them is crazy. IT is actually brilliant and will make for brilliant drama, that ME is known for, plus the indoctrination fallss in line with what the reapers do for crying out loud.

It is not briliant it is a cheap fix, and that's it. It requires no explination other than: Shepard was indoctronated in the last few seconds of their fight on earth the end, and that is a worse ending then what we have already.

How is that a cheap fix? It lets the Devs have an Completely open opportunity to do anything they want( such as no longer backed into a corner). They can now rightfully change the reapers reasons for harvasting and change what the crucible is for.

BTW Kylie its not the ending...Shepard wakes up with a breath!

[Deltateam Elcor]

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

Deltateam Elcor wrote...
No one here knows how to actually make an ending without it being cliché... 

The ending of ME1 was pretty cliche'. So if that has people worried, "Mass Effect isn't cliche'!" well I don't know how best to tell them but.....

The endings to ME1 and 2 were always going to be cliche, there was no escaping it, however with the end of a trilogy, there is a difference.

[wheelierdan]

[Pride Demon]

KevShep wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...



But it's a fact, that while the "oh, indoctrination, clever..." trick may seem interesting now, if they confirm that to be the case and the DLC actually gives you an ending (by picking the destroy option and not getting indoctrinated), what incentive would you still have to pick the other two "false" endings...

None! They become a superfluos trick as no one who has played the game will fall for it anymore... So one might as well remove it no?


The choice is now a non choice, since if I want to experience the new content I am FORCED to pick a very specific path: that's railroading, plain and simple...


This is my opinion of course, don't mean to offend...

Bioware has stated that they want it to be the most talked about and most memorable ending of all time. Casey said he wanted to get people to speculate and that is EXACTLY what has happend. As to why would you pick the other two endings? Its simple........Its your first play through. just like in ME2 and other game, would you make the bad decisions the second time?...No you would not! Its the same thing.

Its clever trick that has not been used before and it works. It gets peoples emotions twisted just like a Mass Effect game should!

I know what Mr. Hudson said... I believe him, (in fact, the idea made me smile, reminded me of what Patrick McGoohan said regarding "The Prisoner"...) in no way I am saying he lied...

What I'm saying is bad decisions have never, so far, had such a dire consequece as to force you into a single decision just to see the actual ending... Let's take the Quarian/Geth situation, you can resolve it only if a certain quota of right decisions is reached, but the situation is flexible enough to allow characterization and customization (you get this wrong, but if you get that right, it's more dificult but you obtain your good ending); in this case, all is reduced to one, without any way out.
Now if you told me, "you pick green/blue, reapers have more influence on you, reaching a good ending (maybe not the best, but still good) is harder but still feasible", I'll agree with you IT is ok, but as it is, IT beheads two thirds of the catalysts choices by simply saying "you die, sorry..."

Look... I don't want to offend, I understand your passion about IT, it's commendable, but in my opinion IT has some flaws, and I point out something about it may have to be fixed; you don't think there are flaws, very well, but I don't understand why you must rebuke all my posts like that, as if they were inchoerent and nonsensical and you were pointing out the obvious...
I can accept you ideas, I don't understand why is it difficult for you to extend the same courtesy to me...

But whatever, let's agree to disagree, peace...

[Hunter_Wolf]

wheelierdan wrote...

Haha that was actually entertaining.

[Apollo-XL5]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

I still dont get why you that that having the hero who has fought the reapers for three games suddenly being mind***ked by them only to break from it to beat them is crazy. IT is actually brilliant and will make for brilliant drama, that ME is known for, plus the indoctrination fallss in line with what the reapers do for crying out loud.

It is not briliant it is a cheap fix, and that's it. It requires no explination other than: Shepard was indoctronated in the last few seconds of their fight on earth the end, and that is a worse ending then what we have already.

Shepard is not indoctrinated, harbinger is TRYING to indoctrinate him/her.  Why because shep is the biggest threat to the reapers.  OH and here is another peice of evidence for you.  When i last played the death run to the beam.  I stopped in one spot for five minutes.  Now if the ending was final then why didnt harbinger blow me away for taking my sweet getting down there.  BEcause and here is the kicker......because he was trying to indocrinate shep.  Shep would be more of an asset to the reapers if they could turn shep to their way of thinking.
OH  and i am not bull****ing about the death run bit, try it, it is uncanny how harbinger ignores you but blasts everyone else.

[Kylie Nightbreeze]

wheelierdan wrote...

You have me laughing.

[TeamLexana]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

I love that BioWare is listening to us, but I think that those of us that don't believe in the Indoctronization theory need to stand up, before our favorite game is destroyed by an ending we don't want. I mean how many of us are there? Since BioWare listens to these forms and it seems to be drowning in this Indoc Theory we may be given that without our voice being heard right?

I like the Indoctrination Theory because it's the only thing that makes sense in context of the ending we have now. There is too many wtf plotholes in the one we have now, epically HUGE plotholes. I'm sure it's been gone over again and again in the forums already so I won't go over them unless you want.

The only bad thing I see with the Indoc Theory is that I don't like that would mean they released an incomplete ending but screw it, it's still better then what we have now. TAKE MY MONEY! lol

[Kylie Nightbreeze]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

wheelierdan wrote...

You have me laughing.

Then explain that to all the other people who beleive that Shep is indoctronated because that is how it comes across when they explain it.

[Kylie Nightbreeze]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

I still dont get why you that that having the hero who has fought the reapers for three games suddenly being mind***ked by them only to break from it to beat them is crazy. IT is actually brilliant and will make for brilliant drama, that ME is known for, plus the indoctrination fallss in line with what the reapers do for crying out loud.

It is not briliant it is a cheap fix, and that's it. It requires no explination other than: Shepard was indoctronated in the last few seconds of their fight on earth the end, and that is a worse ending then what we have already.

Shepard is not indoctrinated, harbinger is TRYING to indoctrinate him/her.  Why because shep is the biggest threat to the reapers.  OH and here is another peice of evidence for you.  When i last played the death run to the beam.  I stopped in one spot for five minutes.  Now if the ending was final then why didnt harbinger blow me away for taking my sweet getting down there.  BEcause and here is the kicker......because he was trying to indocrinate shep.  Shep would be more of an asset to the reapers if they could turn shep to their way of thinking.
OH  and i am not bull****ing about the death run bit, try it, it is uncanny how harbinger ignores you but blasts everyone else.

Then explain that to the rest of the IT people because they make it sound like it is what has already happened to Shep.

[Vromrig]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

wheelierdan wrote...

You have me laughing.

Then explain that to all the other people who beleive that Shep is indoctronated because that is how it comes across when they explain it.

Unable to determine source of argument.

Majority of Indoctrination Theory adherents do not argue successful Indoctrination?

[KevShep]

Pride Demon wrote...

I can accept you ideas, I don't understand why is it difficult for you to extend the same courtesy to me...

But whatever, let's agree to disagree, peace...

I never intended to disrespect you (sorry if I seemed that way) believe Ive been around alot of people in here over the year or so that down right are rude to me for no reason other then they disagree. So yes we disagree and the is the nature of a great series to have big interesting topics.

[Dreogan]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

I still dont get why you that that having the hero who has fought the reapers for three games suddenly being mind***ked by them only to break from it to beat them is crazy. IT is actually brilliant and will make for brilliant drama, that ME is known for, plus the indoctrination fallss in line with what the reapers do for crying out loud.

It is not briliant it is a cheap fix, and that's it. It requires no explination other than: Shepard was indoctronated in the last few seconds of their fight on earth the end, and that is a worse ending then what we have already.

Shepard is not indoctrinated, harbinger is TRYING to indoctrinate him/her.  Why because shep is the biggest threat to the reapers.  OH and here is another peice of evidence for you.  When i last played the death run to the beam.  I stopped in one spot for five minutes.  Now if the ending was final then why didnt harbinger blow me away for taking my sweet getting down there.  BEcause and here is the kicker......because he was trying to indocrinate shep.  Shep would be more of an asset to the reapers if they could turn shep to their way of thinking.
OH  and i am not bull****ing about the death run bit, try it, it is uncanny how harbinger ignores you but blasts everyone else.

Isn't it just as likely a developer didn't feel like coding in another blast, or possibly you'd run into save state problems with continuous blasts after an autosave? This still feels like you're filling out madlibs to me.

[KevShep]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Then explain that to the rest of the IT people because they make it sound like it is what has already happened to Shep.

We did...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbghjn7_Byc

[Apollo-XL5]

I doubt that, not with bioware. I mean That would be like infinity ward making a level on cod that has you needing to run through an area (you know with a sense of ergency) big bombed but then noy bothering to punish you for taking your time.

[DJBare]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

No I don't, but what I do have is info gathered from playing all three games, and the fact that Shep died in the beging of ME2 kills the slow Indoc theory cold. I doubt that being revived from the dead would cause the Indoc to still be there.

Actually the indoc can remain since it's nanite technology, Shepard has been in contact with enough reaper tech over the series that would allow the nanites to enter through the skin or be breathed in, read Retribution for an explanation.

[noobcannon]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

I still dont get why you that that having the hero who has fought the reapers for three games suddenly being mind***ked by them only to break from it to beat them is crazy. IT is actually brilliant and will make for brilliant drama, that ME is known for, plus the indoctrination fallss in line with what the reapers do for crying out loud.

It is not briliant it is a cheap fix, and that's it. It requires no explination other than: Shepard was indoctronated in the last few seconds of their fight on earth the end, and that is a worse ending then what we have already.

Shepard is not indoctrinated, harbinger is TRYING to indoctrinate him/her.  Why because shep is the biggest threat to the reapers.  OH and here is another peice of evidence for you.  When i last played the death run to the beam.  I stopped in one spot for five minutes.  Now if the ending was final then why didnt harbinger blow me away for taking my sweet getting down there.  BEcause and here is the kicker......because he was trying to indocrinate shep.  Shep would be more of an asset to the reapers if they could turn shep to their way of thinking.
OH  and i am not bull****ing about the death run bit, try it, it is uncanny how harbinger ignores you but blasts everyone else.

Then explain that to the rest of the IT people because they make it sound like it is what has already happened to Shep.

sometimes people say indoctrinated and technically they mean "process of being indoctrinated". i can;t speak for everyone but i am guilty of this on a few occasions.

[Cant Planet]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

It requires no explination other than: Shepard was indoctronated in the last few seconds of their fight on earth the end, and that is a worse ending then what we have already.

If that's what you think IT insists upon, that Shepard was flash-Indoctrinated when hit by the Reaper beam, then no wonder you think it's nonsense.

Problem is, that's not what IT insists upon.

It could be a gradual Indoctrination, which many have already explained.

It could be no Indoctrination, but simply Shepard's own sense of self-doubt, which is amply documented by the many moments where we see her/him alone and struggling to retain composure, and when other members of the squad remark that s/he needs some rest.

I mean, I could construct one narrow and misrepresentative argument in favor of the earth being round, and totally demolish it, but it wouldn't mean I've proved a flat earth.

We're obviously all speculating at this point, but if we're going to keep it interesting we at least need to address the best arguments on the other side of the debate, not the weakest ones.