367 réponses à ce sujet

[thatryanguy]

Indoctrination Theory = Bioware are greedy asses for releasing an incomplete game, but can make this into something amazing.

Endings are canon = Bioware are incompetent asses, and have no hope for redemption.

Why would anyone with more brain cells than fingers hope for the latter?

I don't believe for a second that indoctrination was their original intent, but I'd be more than happy to see them take the theory and run with it for the new content they're working on.

[Pride Demon]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

I love that BioWare is listening to us, but I think that those of us that don't believe in the Indoctronization theory need to stand up, before our favorite game is destroyed by an ending we don't want. I mean how many of us are there? Since BioWare listens to these forms and it seems to be drowning in this Indoc Theory we may be given that without our voice being heard right?

Allow me to shamely quote myself from another thread...
The bolded part is the main idea, but read all of it if you want...

luk3us wrote...

You know what I like about the ending?

Bioware made the 'renegade' ending the 'right' ending. Suck on that paragons of virtue!

I
don't believe it's possible to clearly identify any of the endings as
Paragon/Renegade: for one, the colours and the characters are mismatched
(I can't say about Anderson not being Renegade, but TIM sure as he*l
isn't Paragon).

Also, a minor note to OP, if Anderson is killed
by TIM, you do not get killed 100%, there's a second renegade prompt to
shoot him right after he shoots Anderson...

Also, while a valid
and well thought out theory, one thing that keeps me on the fence when
it comes the to Indoctrination theory is that, if true, it totally
invalidates two out of the three endings; so assuming someone chose
those for genuine reasons, it's like the dev coming to you and saing "Oh
so you chose blue/green ending, too bad loser, you fail forever!
Trololol!", this is not good...

In short, while I like how the IT
is debated, I feel I need to point out it seems to try too hard to
paint one of the endings as the "one true ending" by blatantly demeaning
the value of other two possibilities...

I'd also like to point
out Shepard eyes don't become like those of TIM due to the catalyst,
they already were like that since Project Lazarus, the pattern is merely
hidden under the cornea (check a full renegade ME2 Shep, and you'll see
the three "dots" in the eyes), the only thing the Catalyst does is
changing the colour of the glow from red to blue (which could mean
anything or nothing, it's open to speculation).

earth_angel wrote...
Here is something that is not in the video : when you choose destroy you
must destroy a cable that seems to power the crucible (or at least link
the crucible to the catalyst). Isn't that odd?

Here's
another peculiarity: the control panel of the control ending has in
fact not 2 but 4 levers, almost as if intended for a four armed race to
use *cough*keepers*cough*...

In the end, I'm not yet sure where I stay on these endings, but IT, for all its good points and argumentation, has me scratching my head...
This is of course just my opinion...

[Kylie Nightbreeze]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

But the Indoc theory creates even more holes than it solves, so it is no better.

No it doesn't. If done right, Bioware could fix every plot hole if they would go with indoc. theory.
No plot holes can be bigger then the ones we recieved from last 10 min of the game and RGB endings.

How does it solve the plot wholes when the only plot wholes it fills are the last 10 minutes of the game, and agree with others if it is not from BioWare that the Indoc Theory is true the it is dead in the water.

[Dreogan]

thatryanguy wrote...

Indoctrination Theory = Bioware are greedy asses for releasing an incomplete game, but can make this into something amazing.

Endings are canon = Bioware are incompetent asses, and have no hope for redemption.

Why would anyone with more brain cells than fingers hope for the latter?

I don't believe for a second that indoctrination was their original intent, but I'd be more than happy to see them take the theory and run with it for the new content they're working on.

Assume the worst, hope for the best. My issue with many adherants to IT is they assume the best because they believe it.

Modifié par Dreogan, 25 mars 2012 - 12:06 .

[KevShep]

petipas4141 wrote...

indoctrination = incomplete game

Thats what DLC's are for EDI!

[Namz89]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...
Thank you I completly agree it is not for us fans to fix this proble it is for BioWare to do it in what ever way they want.

Uhm...but they were the reason that we are in that position right now. It's not that someone forced them to make the ending that crappy, they figured that out all on their own.

They knew what we expected, and they promised to fulfill those expectations - what happened in the end can only be described as a disaster. So many promises broken, so many questions left unanswered and from the looks of it, their "listening" to the fans has done nothing.

What they (probably) offer now in the DLC is closure. Thats a start, but on the wrong end. How does explaining things that go against all moral values we got taught in the game, help us getting satisfaction?

Thats like a murderer telling the parents why he killed their kid. Nice, we get some details, but what does that change on the basic problem - that the endings are just not what was advertised and promised. That our choices STILL won't matter at all, that the Mass Effect universe is STILL doomed, one way or the other.

I don't see the "closeure" DLC as any help, but again another way to put in material, that was intendet to be there in the release all along, but for any reason was left out.

Modifié par Namz89, 25 mars 2012 - 12:11 .

[Spectre-00N7]

Lets not turn on each other. I'm not a fan of IDT, but I'm not going to stand in their way when they want an ending too.

[Tiax Rules All]

Penitent wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

you have no idead what your talking about. the endings sucked.. its pretty much impossible for indoc theory to be as bad or worse. I dont understand why (some) hate it so much. It would make for a great segue into the DLC.

The alternatives are what suck. complete re-writes and BS simple closure and explaination is crap.

I still feel you people don't fully get the theory and all its points. You simply couldn't say its worse the the current endings or creates more holes if you did.

The only BS here, is your effort to impose this execrable plot band-aid upon us all, simply because you're enamored with it.

IT is rubbish. I'd rather have Shepard die as is, than be some servile pawn. I didn't play through THREE games, to "go out like a *****," as some might say.

Soo what if you conquer indoctrination, thats not going out like a ****, why are you so angry, you are assuming things that have not been stated by IDT as having been stated by IDT, then raging over them.

I never said you had to be a pawn in DLC, far from it. I think writing in a partially indoctrinated or still strugling shep would make for good story and an even more epic conclusion.

[Kylie Nightbreeze]

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

Lets not turn on each other. I'm not a fan of IDT, but I'm not going to stand in their way when they want an ending too.

Agreed that is one ending among many, but it seems that the people who believe this tripe want it to be the only one.

[Dreogan]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

Lets not turn on each other. I'm not a fan of IDT, but I'm not going to stand in their way when they want an ending too.

Agreed that is one ending among many, but it seems that the people who believe this tripe want it to be the only one.

As evidenced by followers of the Church (of Indoctrination) begging Bioware to make it "real."

[KevShep]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

Lets not turn on each other. I'm not a fan of IDT, but I'm not going to stand in their way when they want an ending too.

Agreed that is one ending among many, but it seems that the people who believe this tripe want it to be the only one.

Wrong!!! The "Indoctrination Theory" is not the ending...its a way of explaining what happend so they can continue the game and make muiltiple endings.

Remember Shepard wakes up in rubble that has bricks which are in London not the citadel.

Modifié par KevShep, 25 mars 2012 - 12:14 .

[ryuasiu]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Warden130 wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

There is plenty resistance. It's just tiring to combat the level of sheer denial of IT proponents. They seem to think if they say it long enough it'll suddenly be true.

This statement reminds me the take back Mass Effect "movement". Say "Hold the line" enough and Bioware will change the endings .

There's a difference between pushing for something to change and telling everyone you can that it's already there.

I am an IT believer and regularly visit the IT thread amoung others. I have seen both sides with thier share of trolls but for the most part both sides have been fairly civil. Most IT believers as not handing out pamphlets saying to believe the IT theory or else! its a tehory, one that can get dispoven in an instant once bioware opens their mouth. But I doubt with  99% of the game so well written by VERY good writers would not end it with just as much thought as they put into the rest of the game

[liggy002]

It's very understandable that they want it to be the only one. Try this for an exercise. Take what we have now for an ending, and attempt to explain the huge plot holes. Otherwise, you'd have to rewrite the ending, but they said themselves on twitter that they aren't going to rewrite the ending. So, what's the alternative to the indoc theory. Making the current endings cannon and attempting to explain them, heresy.

[Vromrig]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

I love that BioWare is listening to us, but I think that those of us that don't believe in the Indoctronization theory need to stand up, before our favorite game is destroyed by an ending we don't want. I mean how many of us are there? Since BioWare listens to these forms and it seems to be drowning in this Indoc Theory we may be given that without our voice being heard right?

Dislike of ending typically attributed to people who do not understand ending.

Impossible to comprehend how someone can like it.

[Penitent]

Dreogan wrote...

My problem right now is indoctrination gives credit to Bioware when they absolutely do not deserve it. They might deserve it in the future, but at this present time and with what is currently in the game they do not deserve any credit for this ending.

I've been pointing that out since I first heard it, sir.

http://social.biowar...4081/4#10562768

Aiyie wrote...

I would suggest anyone who doesn't like the indoc theory develop something to counter it.

I'm not talking about simply disproving it, im talking about an alternative. Like it, or hate it, it seems like they are the only ones looking for a way to solve the ending problem,...

First of all, I don't need to develop an alternate ending, as that isn't my responsibility. (Perhaps the most annoying aspect of IT proponents, is that they're so pretentious as to assume it's theirs.) I'm not a script writer for Bioware. I don't want to write their ending, I want them to write it, just better; on par with the rest of their content.

Secondly, they are not the only ones trying to solve this problem. That assertion is utterly false. There are just as many, if not more people, who oppose IT and want a revised ending. That is also a "solution." Furthermore, IT isn't even actually a solution; unless you consider fabricating some dubious theory to explain, and which simultaneously serves to justify, a bad situation, a "solution" to said bad situation.

[Aiyie]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

As for why I think it causes more holes: 1 Vigil would not have responded to Shep if he/she was even in the begining stages of Indoc. 2 Shepard DIED in the begining of ME2 whic wipes out any Indoc that had been don to her/him. 3 He/She spent maybe in total two and a half hours in the presence of a fully grown reaper in ME2, and even less time in the presence of a Reaper embryo. 4. The idea that the little boy he/she sees is a halucination caused by the Reapers is just as poor as the holes you are trying to solve. Finally 5. The headaches Shep had towards the end of ME3 were all in the last 10 Min what everyone did not like so again BAD IDEA. Any more question?

1) Even the VI on Thessia tells us that they were betrayed by indoctrinated Protheans.  If they were unable to detect all forms of indoctrination in their own time... both via VI and via Prothean touch-sense... why should Vigil be able to?

2) There's quite a bit of leeway on when Shep goes through indoc.  Some say it was from the moment she met Sovereign.  Others say that it was during The Arrival.  Others think the kid at the start of ME3 was a reaper hallucination, and others (myself included) think 90% of the indoctrination occurs after Harby's attack at the end.

3) We know the Reapers can change the pace of indoctrination at will... even the codex backs that up (I hate using the codex though, as its written from an in-game distinctly human-centric perspective and as such lacks all the necessary information to fully support any conclusions).  Between that and Shep's weakened state after Harby ****s her day up in London, the timescale necessary for indoctrination to occur is completely unknown.

4) That one, I can see it from the standpoiint of the people who think indoc started awhile ago.  While I agree, indoc may have started way back when, I don't think it was advanced enough for the kid to be a hallucination.  I just think he came to represent Shep's guilt over leaving Earth mid-fight.  The dreams, which I don't believe are a result of indoctrination, may be influenced by it though.  Starchild takes that form as a psychological weapon against Shep when the Reapers figure out the kid's siginifance to Shep while rooting around in her brain during the indoc process (whenever it actually occurs).

5) Not sure what you're saying here.  Bioware is very unlikely ot totally scrap the ending, so just complaining about it isn't going to help anything.  If we have to bitterly swallow the starchild scene in order to get a real ending after it, I'll take indoc theory over anything else that's been offered up by anyone.

[Liber320]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

I agree with you, and having the Indoc Theory be an incomplete ending is a great idea, and what I hope it turns into.

That's what it's meant to be

Indoc Theory isn't a good ending, it's a means to one.

People really need to look into things before they start bashing them...

[KevShep]

ryuasiu wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Warden130 wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

There is plenty resistance. It's just tiring to combat the level of sheer denial of IT proponents. They seem to think if they say it long enough it'll suddenly be true.

This statement reminds me the take back Mass Effect "movement". Say "Hold the line" enough and Bioware will change the endings .

There's a difference between pushing for something to change and telling everyone you can that it's already there.

I am an IT believer and regularly visit the IT thread amoung others. I have seen both sides with thier share of trolls but for the most part both sides have been fairly civil. Most IT believers as not handing out pamphlets saying to believe the IT theory or else! its a tehory, one that can get dispoven in an instant once bioware opens their mouth. But I doubt with  99% of the game so well written by VERY good writers would not end it with just as much thought as they put into the rest of the game

 It was said that Casey Hudson was the only one that was writing the last 10 min of the game. He did it WITHOUT the concensus of the entire team.

[Tiax Rules All]

KevShep wrote...

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

Lets not turn on each other. I'm not a fan of IDT, but I'm not going to stand in their way when they want an ending too.

Agreed that is one ending among many, but it seems that the people who believe this tripe want it to be the only one.

Wrong!!! The "Indoctrination Theory" is not the ending...its a way of explaining what happend so they can continue the game and make muiltiple endings.

Some people will never understand this simple principle. saying IDT was what we got then building off it in DLC would be a good deal and people would like and understand it despite not grasping the idea at the moment.

que circular logic time and somebody saying "but if IDT is true then we have NO ENDING!!11!"
right.... because its not.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 25 mars 2012 - 12:17 .

[Aiyie]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

I would suggest anyone who doesn't like the indoc theory develop something to counter it.

I'm not talking about simply disproving it, im talking about an alternative.  Like it, or hate it, it seems like they are the only ones looking for a way to solve the ending problem, or at least give Bioware an easy way to give us a real ending without scrapping everything they've already done.

Most of the indoc theory haters I've seen on these forums (most, not all) appear to prefer wallowing in self-pity and hate rather than look for an actual solution.  In a nutshell, they appear to want everyone else to lose hope because they themselves have.  "If I can't be happy, then nobody should be happy."

Its extremely unlikely that Bioware is going to completely scrap the ending we already have.  The most likely options are either they give us mid-game dlc in an attempt to fill in the plotholes, or they tack something on after the starchild scene.  At least indoc theory explains the starchild scene somewhat... what do the anti-indoc people offer as an alternative? 

and again, please don't just ask for the entire last 15 minutes to be scrapped... its very unrealistic to expect that outcome.

I am only speaking for myself here but I want Bioware to come up with an idea. They were brilliant for 99.9% of the Mass Effect Series I think we should allow them the opportunity to fix what nees to be fixed. 

fair enough.

im just getting tired of how its like there's two sides here.

the anti-enders who aren't doing anything but complain... and the anti-enders who are trying to be a part of the solution.

im pretty sure its fairly obvious which of those two groups supports indoc theory and which is the one that is actively making threads against it.

after all, if you aren't a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.

[noobcannon]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

I love that BioWare is listening to us, but I think that those of us that don't believe in the Indoctronization theory need to stand up, before our favorite game is destroyed by an ending we don't want. I mean how many of us are there? Since BioWare listens to these forms and it seems to be drowning in this Indoc Theory we may be given that without our voice being heard right?

the idea behind the indoctrination theory is it is already planned...they're not requesting bioware to do anything, it is speculation and trying to make sense of the endings through civil, intelligent conversation and discussion... not a bunch of hot air and nerd rage

[Dreogan]

To be fair, there are some people that stick with indoctrination that trump it as the ultimate explanation of the ending, Bioware is genius, etc. They don't use it to reframe a **** ending so Bioware can fix things, they use it as a "super secret" interpretation only the "true fans" (read: them) can understand.

I don't mind the theory, or most of the people that seem to like fixing Bioware's mess for them. I have huge problems with those that ignore the elemental storytelling failures Bioware made with the ending as they try to prop the company up on a pedestal.

Modifié par Dreogan, 25 mars 2012 - 12:21 .

[noobcannon]

Aiyie wrote...

fair enough.

im just getting tired of how its like there's two sides here.

the anti-enders who aren't doing anything but complain... and the anti-enders who are trying to be a part of the solution.

im pretty sure its fairly obvious which of those two groups supports indoc theory and which is the one that is actively making threads against it.

after all, if you aren't a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.

[DJBare]

How about a simple Shepard is unconscious after being struck by the laser, I don't see why anything needs to be more elaborate than that, this is a person that's gone through a lot of stress and desperation and now lying unconscious on the battle field.

[Aiyie]

The alternative to indoctrination is to simply reject the ending as it is. It is wrong; invalid fiction.

I've come to accept that Bioware is most likely not going to scrap the whole starchild scene.

They're sticking with their artistic integrity thing, and I can respect them for that.

But along with that, it doesn't leave em many options if they really are going to do something for the fans who were disappointed with the ending.

They've got two options in this case:

A) release mid-game dlc to attempt to provide context to the current ending.
release post starchild scene dlc and retcon that whole abortion into something that leads to a new finale.