367 réponses à ce sujet

[Spectre-00N7]

KevShep wrote...
Wrong!!! The "Indoctrination Theory" is not the ending...its a way of explaining what happend so they can continue the game and make muiltiple endings.

Remember Shepard wakes up in rubble that has bricks which are in London not the citadel.

The only problem I have with this ending is that I'm sitting around for 15 minutes in a dream.  Seems really out of place.

Still, I'm not to passionate about it enough to try to slow down this movement.

[john v rambo]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

But the Indoc theory creates even more holes than it solves, so it is no better.

The Indoc theory can easily fill all the major plot holes. Indoc theory = unfinished game. DLC ending could continue from the "best ending" and give us all what we want.

[Nauks]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

As for why I think it causes more holes: 1 Vigil would not have responded to Shep if he/she was even in the begining stages of Indoc. 2 Shepard DIED in the begining of ME2 whic wipes out any Indoc that had been don to her/him. 3 He/She spent maybe in total two and a half hours in the presence of a fully grown reaper in ME2, and even less time in the presence of a Reaper embryo. 4. The idea that the little boy he/she sees is a halucination caused by the Reapers is just as poor as the holes you are trying to solve. Finally 5. The headaches Shep had towards the end of ME3 were all in the last 10 Min what everyone did not like so again BAD IDEA. Any more question?

1-2: Nothing says Shep needs to have started getting indoctrinated until ME2, and even then very slowly.
3: Arrival.
4: Why does the boy dissapear into thin air in the vent then? further, is seemingly ignored by the escape shuttle crew.
5: Sheps reaction in the fake ending was more likely due to the direct and aggresive assault on his mind, than anything else.

Modifié par Nauks, 25 mars 2012 - 12:23 .

[KevShep]

DJBare wrote...

How about a simple Shepard is unconscious after being struck by the laser, I don't see why anything needs to be more elaborate than that, this is a person that's gone through a lot of stress and desperation and now lying unconscious on the battle field.

He is unconscious but he is also being indoctrinated by harbinger, as the theory goes. He wakes up in rubble that looks like the suroundings of London and not the Citadel.

Modifié par KevShep, 25 mars 2012 - 12:24 .

[draken-heart]

i'd say the endings are vague, written in a way that makes one think, and come up with their own ending.

at least that is my idea, as i am head canoning that it was all just a dream that Shepard wakes from and the Reapers are defeated and that She and Samantha live together in a small town on Earth.
(this is for my fem!Shepard that i am current doing that is in ME2 right now)

[Liber320]

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

KevShep wrote...
Wrong!!! The "Indoctrination Theory" is not the ending...its a way of explaining what happend so they can continue the game and make muiltiple endings.

Remember Shepard wakes up in rubble that has bricks which are in London not the citadel.

The only problem I have with this ending is that I'm sitting around for 15 minutes in a dream.  Seems really out of place.

Still, I'm not to passionate about it enough to try to slow down this movement.

The whole "it's a dream" or "it's an illusion" thing doesn't bug me.

The only thing that bothers me is that if Indoc Theory gets pick up, it would mean that the Aderson/TIM scene never happened. Which would be such a shame.

Unless, of course, they make it so that everything that happens after Sheperd passes out in front of the console is a dream/hallucination/indoctrination.

THat way we can still get rid of the Starchild and keep Anderson's extremely well-done (imo) death scene.

[Cant Planet]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

Lets not turn on each other. I'm not a fan of IDT, but I'm not going to stand in their way when they want an ending too.

Agreed that is one ending among many, but it seems that the people who believe this tripe want it to be the only one.

The difference:

Tripe can be made into a satisfying meal by a competent chef. Crap, however, remains crap no matter how you spice it.

Everything after Marauder Shields is narratively justifiable if it's Shepard's inner fight. If the entire scene happened a half-hour before the end of the game, and was followed by a return to reality and the "real" final battle against Harbinger, then there would be no controversy about it, regardless of whether Shepard ends up winning or losing after that. It would stand as a rather clever bottleneck challenge, a moral test of Shepard's (and the player's) dedication to the ideals represented by Anderson and the Paragon path.

Indoc theory includes the current ending and places it in a context that makes narrative and diegetic sense. There might still be some plot holes -- show me a fiction this complex that doesn't have any! -- but they are minor and easily dealt with compared to what taking the current end as literal canon leaves us with.

[KevShep]

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

KevShep wrote...
Wrong!!! The "Indoctrination Theory" is not the ending...its a way of explaining what happend so they can continue the game and make muiltiple endings.

Remember Shepard wakes up in rubble that has bricks which are in London not the citadel.

The only problem I have with this ending is that I'm sitting around for 15 minutes in a dream.  Seems really out of place.

Still, I'm not to passionate about it enough to try to slow down this movement.

Its not just a dream (as in not real). He is in a dream but he is also fighting harbinger so its not time wasted.

[Pride Demon]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

Lets not turn on each other. I'm not a fan of IDT, but I'm not going to stand in their way when they want an ending too.

Agreed that is one ending among many, but it seems that the people who believe this tripe want it to be the only one.

Wrong!!! The "Indoctrination Theory" is not the ending...its a way of explaining what happend so they can continue the game and make muiltiple endings.

Some people will never understand this simple principle. saying IDT was what we got then building off it in DLC would be a good deal and people would like and understand it despite not grasping the idea at the moment.

que circular logic time and somebody saying "but if IDT is true then we have NO ENDING!!11!"
right.... because its not.

The problem for me it's not that the indoctrination theory is not the ending, I got that it's just to make better ones...
The problem is that IT was born to mend the fact the endings apparently making game choices eirrelevant, and the solution is... making even the "final choice" irrelevant, by stating that all but one are inherently "wrong"...

The endings may not be perfect, but at least I got to freely pick my technicolour explosion, without having to worry that chosing all but one of them equals failing...

I totally respect the IT and those that support it, but taking it in unmediated unbalances the game "finale": all colours should have a chance so to speak...

[ZiegenkonigIII]

I think the main problem people have with the Indoc theory is that it would mean Bioware released an incomplete game. Which of course is wrong, but I think this whole mess has gotten past that point.

Whether or not Bioware decides to put one idea or another into the ending is beside the point. We can't afford to be divided on such a trivial issue.

If anything, and this is to the OP, Retake is as much at fault for forcing a particular ending as the Indoc group is. However, your not taking into account that these are just a few people who feel so strongly about the subject. The majority of each group, I imagine, would like to see a suitable resolution as a bottom line, and could care less about how it is carried out; as long as it is suitable.

[DJBare]

KevShep wrote...

Its not just a dream (as in not real). He is in a dream but he is also fighting harbinger so its not time wasted.

I like that idea, the battle is still real but now takes place in the mind.

[Dreogan]

after all, if you aren't a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.

The same can be said of those that give Bioware too much credit by believing the ending is super-deep. Extremes are bad.

I personally don't contribute to indoctrination since I don't consider it relevant. The ending's invalid to begin with. I can't build anything on an unstable foundation, and I consider any theory (not just indoctrination) even tangentially related to the ending volatile. If Bioware were to shift the foundation (the current ending) just a little, in just the right way, indoctrination could very well collapse as it is.

I'd much rather wait until Bioware fixes its ending before I decide to invest my mental capacity to theorize. Note there are many, many ways to "fix" an ending: Bioware's picking from a cloud of points, rather than a simple red/green/blue trichotomy.

Modifié par Dreogan, 25 mars 2012 - 12:31 .

[KevShep]

Pride Demon wrote...

The problem for me it's not that the indoctrination theory is not the ending, I got that it's just to make better ones...
The problem is that IT was born to mend the fact the endings apparently making game choices eirrelevant, and the solution is... making even the "final choice" irrelevant, by stating that all but one are inherently "wrong"...

The endings may not be perfect, but at least I got to freely pick my technicolour explosion, without having to worry that chosing all but one of them equals failing...

I totally respect the IT and those that support it, but taking it in unmediated unbalances the game "finale": all colours should have a chance so to speak...

The choices you make ( the three at the end ) do matter. If you chose control you will give into indoctrination, same with the synthetic one. The only way you can break from indoctrination is destroy option.

[pharsti]

Why would i resist against something that is simply not true?

No need.

[Kylie Nightbreeze]

DJBare wrote...

How about a simple Shepard is unconscious after being struck by the laser, I don't see why anything needs to be more elaborate than that, this is a person that's gone through a lot of stress and desperation and now lying unconscious on the battle field.

An even better idea thank you SOOO much. It is the easiest explination, but maybe the best. Who knows maybe that is what they entended with the ending.

[Penitent]

DJBare wrote...

How about a simple Shepard is unconscious after being struck by the laser, I don't see why anything needs to be more elaborate than that, this is a person that's gone through a lot of stress and desperation and now lying unconscious on the battle field.

^^^^ This. It's the final chapter. It's supposed to tie loose ends, not leave more.

I don't want some elaborate explanation for a bad ending. I want to win.

[liggy002]

DJBare wrote...

How about a simple Shepard is unconscious after being struck by the laser, I don't see why anything needs to be more elaborate than that, this is a person that's gone through a lot of stress and desperation and now lying unconscious on the battle field.

Sean Connery!  Man, I didn't know you were into Mass Effect!!  That's awesome!!

[Motherlander]

I just don't like the indoctrination theory. It assumes that everything beyond the beam is a dream.

Yet there is no other scene in ME where Shepard enters a drwam scape except in the obvious ones where she is chasing the little boy. So in my view, it is just as inconsisntent with the general presentation of ME as the current endings are.

[liggy002]

If you guys don't like dream endings, then you'd hate Eternal Sonata. The entire game is a dream.

[Cyan-Glow]

@ Pride Demon:

I don't see it that way: A lot of people think that one choice is paragon and the other renegade, but the fact is three is only one choice that ends the sequence and breaks indoctrination. I think of it as more of a test than a conscious choice.

You fail the test = you lose your grip and become fully reaper controlled (ie fail the mission)
You pass the test = you are free of their control so that you can now go and take on the reapers and get your happy ending.

I believe in IT, and it supports Bio-Ware's "art" argument because if true that would be a gigantic poetic device for showcasing Shep's struggle's with control. In retrospect it's a bit too poetic, but with the right conclusion it could turn the game into a gem.

[DJBare]

Grayson had to battle the reapers in his mind throughout his transformation, the only reason they were able to gain any real control over Grayson was giving him doses of red dust, while lucid it was Grayson care for Kahlee sanders that kept him away from her, likewise with Shepard, it's his/her care for the squad, Anderson, his LI that would keep him fighting the indoc.

Modifié par DJBare, 25 mars 2012 - 12:37 .

[Dreogan]

liggy002 wrote...

If you guys don't like dream endings, then you'd hate Eternal Sonata. The entire game is a dream.

Thank goodness ME isn't a crappy JRPG

[EightDeer]

The "Indoctrination Theory" isn't evidence of Bioware's genius. It's just people desperately trying to convince themselves that hundreds of hours of playtime spanning 5 years weren't ultimately a waste of time.

[Pkxm]

it wouldnt be an incomplete game. it would be a game with an "ending" that you dont like (like now). except the difference is you will get DLC that explains that ending, and make sheps send off not suck.

you have 2 choices

the current ending, which sucks

the current ending, which sucks, but dlc after that makes it not suck and gives you a proper fulfilling end to sheps journey - by using indoctrination theory to explain away me3's ending sucking

which is better?

all indoctrination theory is "oh, shep was dreaming/indoctrinated? bleh well TIME TO KICK SOME REAPER ASS"

Modifié par Jsxdf, 25 mars 2012 - 12:38 .

[ShepardTheHopeful]

There is a huge collection of anti indoctrination (myself included) because we see logic not magical floating emergency induction ports to grab at to try and justify EA and Bioware. They wrote it that way cause they wanted to not because they left super secret clues for all of us smart people to find out. (If you really thought Bioware thought this hard to give you an ending go play Dragon age 2 or go talk to EA for a matter of 30 seconds see how well that idea went.) Truth is they threw a lot in and expected us to fill the holes the only problem is the holes go so deep no one know where the hell they go so we either pull at the straws. Realize this logic towards the fact the ending was suppose to be smart and analytic while it became pompous and overly philosophical. It doesn't even match Shepard's personality the choice isn't even that hard to make you think a fate of the entire universe would have a little more conversation or thought into it. But sadly it did not and thus here we are.