367 réponses à ce sujet

[Pride Demon]

KevShep wrote...
No...It gets people talking just like clever Bioware wanted people to do all along(they actually do no joke, stated by Casey). The real choices will come at the end.

Look... Allow me to clarify...
I'm not against IT...
I do not hate the endings in fact, I'm not sure where I stay yet...

But it's a fact, that while the "oh, indoctrination, clever..." trick may seem interesting now, if they confirm that to be the case and the DLC actually gives you an ending (by picking the destroy option and not getting indoctrinated), what incentive would you still have to pick the other two "false" endings...

None! They become a superfluos trick as no one who has played the game will fall for it anymore... So one might as well remove it no?

It's like a new DLC comes along that establishes that if at the end of ME2 Shep choses to save the CB, then for some inexplicable reason he'll end up dead, so only if you destroy it you get to keep playing...
Who would actually deliberately fail other than the most diehard of roleplayers, and even if, to KEEP playing you are forced in a specific decision, since doing anything else equals death...

The choice is now a non choice, since if I want to experience the new content I am FORCED to pick a very specific path: that's railroading, plain and simple...

I frankly don't get your point, the fact people talk about it doesn't negate the fact that IT would remove any objective meaning from green/blue ending: you say "no, it's indoctrination", well, congratz to Shep for getting indoctrinated, but then what, you essentially lost the game, saying those endings will retain their meaning is like saying the "Critical Mission Failure" screen is a satisfying ending...

This is my opinion of course, don't mean to offend...

[spz123]

Dreogan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thornquist wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thornquist wrote...

The reason IT needs to die, is because it gives people false hope. Many who were perfectly happy with clarity & closure are now setting their hopes in a completely revamp of the last 10 minutes. When it dont happen, they will rage again.

No its only suggestions to Bioware to do this. Its not that we believe that it will happen its that we see a way out for Bioware that is better for all.

Im sorry, but I have been enough in these forums to know that alot of people really do believe that this theory is true.
And in any case, Bioware have already stated that they will NOT change the endings, so discussing the IT, which DOES propose changing ending, is pointless. Discuss it from a fan-fiction point of view, maybe, but not like something Bioware should implement.

They have not said that they are not changing the endings.Ive read the post from the CEO and it is said in a way as to not say ether or on both sides.

http://imgur.com/eMYVd 

"clarify" and "add closure" could potentially fix the endings. 

The only way "new content" would not be changing the endings in some way, would be that Bioware planned adding it after the effect all along because adding something new IS changing it in some way.

People need to stop over analysing purposefully vague statements.

[Dreogan]

KevShep wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thornquist wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thornquist wrote...

The reason IT needs to die, is because it gives people false hope. Many who were perfectly happy with clarity & closure are now setting their hopes in a completely revamp of the last 10 minutes. When it dont happen, they will rage again.

No its only suggestions to Bioware to do this. Its not that we believe that it will happen its that we see a way out for Bioware that is better for all.

Im sorry, but I have been enough in these forums to know that alot of people really do believe that this theory is true.
And in any case, Bioware have already stated that they will NOT change the endings, so discussing the IT, which DOES propose changing ending, is pointless. Discuss it from a fan-fiction point of view, maybe, but not like something Bioware should implement.

They have not said that they are not changing the endings.Ive read the post from the CEO and it is said in a way as to not say ether or on both sides.

http://imgur.com/eMYVd 

Oh I see. If anything this still points to indoc theory becasue it would have to stay the same in order to be effective.

Not really. As I've said before, it would be hard for Bioware to pull off but they could fix the ending by changing a few lines or adding additional explanation other places. Again, don't underestimate the power an author has over their world.

Indoctrination might be cool, but the author doesn't need it. 

Sadly, I think the result of this is both sides of the room (for and against indoctrination) will be pissed once we see they just put lipstick on a pig. I don't have much confidence in Bioware's storytelling at this point, and I don't think they'd manage to pull off the indoctrination closer-- if they ever were to do it.

[KevShep]

Dreogan wrote...

Not really. As I've said before, it would be hard for Bioware to pull off but they could fix the ending by changing a few lines or adding additional explanation other places. Again, don't underestimate the power an author has over their world.

Indoctrination might be cool, but the author doesn't need it. 

Sadly, I think the result of this is both sides of the room (for and against indoctrination) will be pissed once we see they just put lipstick on a pig. I don't have much confidence in Bioware's storytelling at this point, and I don't think they'd manage to pull off the indoctrination closer-- if they ever were to do it.

 It would not be hard at all...Fallout 3 did it! You dont have to change a thing! Just pick up where he left off, and that is where is takes a breath at the end!

[OMEGAlomaniac]

I wouldn't say a resistance, but I do think we need to remind people that it is nothing more than fan speculation at this point. It literaly made me angry when I see comments on a video relating to Indoc Theory like "well thanks for clearing that up, BioWare are obviously masters of storytelling!" or " I didn't understand the end at first, but this is obviously what happened. Everyone saying it's not true should stop trolling".

This is nothing more than FAN SPECULATION, a theory. An interesting one sure, but it's far from definate fact. (Which funnily enough somebody told me it was).

[Dreogan]

KevShep wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Not really. As I've said before, it would be hard for Bioware to pull off but they could fix the current ending by changing a few lines or adding additional explanation other places. Again, don't underestimate the power an author has over their world.

Indoctrination might be cool, but the author doesn't need it. 

Sadly, I think the result of this is both sides of the room (for and against indoctrination) will be pissed once we see they just put lipstick on a pig. I don't have much confidence in Bioware's storytelling at this point, and I don't think they'd manage to pull off the indoctrination closer-- if they ever were to do it.

 It would not be hard at all...Fallout 3 did it! You dont have to change a thing! Just pick up where he left off, and that is where is takes a breath at the end!

You misread my quote. Word added for emphasis.

Modifié par Dreogan, 25 mars 2012 - 01:17 .

[draken-heart]

KevShep wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thornquist wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thornquist wrote...

The reason IT needs to die, is because it gives people false hope. Many who were perfectly happy with clarity & closure are now setting their hopes in a completely revamp of the last 10 minutes. When it dont happen, they will rage again.

No its only suggestions to Bioware to do this. Its not that we believe that it will happen its that we see a way out for Bioware that is better for all.

Im sorry, but I have been enough in these forums to know that alot of people really do believe that this theory is true.
And in any case, Bioware have already stated that they will NOT change the endings, so discussing the IT, which DOES propose changing ending, is pointless. Discuss it from a fan-fiction point of view, maybe, but not like something Bioware should implement.

They have not said that they are not changing the endings.Ive read the post from the CEO and it is said in a way as to not say ether or on both sides.

http://imgur.com/eMYVd 

Oh I see. If anything this still points to indoc theory becasue it would have to stay the same in order to be effective.

the indoc theory does not change, simply adds onto the ending providing viable results to war against the reapers. also adds explanation to  the horrblie ends we have.

also i still think that both sides of this forum Civil War need to use their heads and think that they may have did the endings the way they did TO MAKE YOU ALL COME UP WITH YOUR OWN ENDING

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 mars 2012 - 01:23 .

[Dreogan]

OMEGAlomaniac wrote...

I wouldn't say a resistance, but I do think we need to remind people that it is nothing more than fan speculation at this point. It literaly made me angry when I see comments on a video relating to Indoc Theory like "well thanks for clearing that up, BioWare are obviously masters of storytelling!" or " I didn't understand the end at first, but this is obviously what happened. Everyone saying it's not true should stop trolling".

This is nothing more than FAN SPECULATION, a theory. An interesting one sure, but it's far from definate fact. (Which funnily enough somebody told me it was).

I'm right there with you, forcing myself into a silent rage so I don't throw my monitor across the room.

[Cyan-Glow]

The real "proof" for me is the dream elements after the reaper beam hits you. We could at least agree that it's happening in some sort of alternative or augmented reality. It's not presented in a very coherent fashion, I agree, but the elements are there. (Trees, slowed motion, illogical interactions, appearances, and of course the wounds)

That is unless Shepard is so out of it from exhaustion he is hallucinating and imposing made up elements onto the real world, but that's a much more twisted take on things.

I see it like this:
1) Shepard exists in some sort of alternative world/dream
2) Thus he is not really capable of activating the crucible

If we can agree on these two things then it follows that the rest of the events could not have occurred for real. IT is the best explanation of this so far.

[Kylie Nightbreeze]

For those of you who haven't read Dr. Muzyka's response here it is:
http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

No where in here does he say they are going to completly change the ending. If they add to anyway it is a change, maybe not completly, but is still a change. If they say it is a dream and Shep was just unconcious: thumbs up. If Shep was fighting off indocronation: thumbs up. If it something else intirely Thumbs up! Ultimatly it is their call not ours is all I am trying to say.

[KevShep]

Dreogan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Not really. As I've said before, it would be hard for Bioware to pull off but they could fix the current ending by changing a few lines or adding additional explanation other places. Again, don't underestimate the power an author has over their world.

Indoctrination might be cool, but the author doesn't need it. 

Sadly, I think the result of this is both sides of the room (for and against indoctrination) will be pissed once we see they just put lipstick on a pig. I don't have much confidence in Bioware's storytelling at this point, and I don't think they'd manage to pull off the indoctrination closer-- if they ever were to do it.

 It would not be hard at all...Fallout 3 did it! You dont have to change a thing! Just pick up where he left off, and that is where is takes a breath at the end!

You misread my quote. Word added for emphasis.

You missread me as well. They dont need to "fix" the "current" ending by changing anything at all. Just make DLC like Fallout 3 did.

[KevShep]

draken-heart wrote...


the indoc theory does not change, simply adds onto the ending providing viable results to war against the reapers. also adds explanation to  the horrblie ends we have.

^this

[Dreogan]

KevShep wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Not really. As I've said before, it would be hard for Bioware to pull off but they could fix the current ending by changing a few lines or adding additional explanation other places. Again, don't underestimate the power an author has over their world.

Indoctrination might be cool, but the author doesn't need it. 

Sadly, I think the result of this is both sides of the room (for and against indoctrination) will be pissed once we see they just put lipstick on a pig. I don't have much confidence in Bioware's storytelling at this point, and I don't think they'd manage to pull off the indoctrination closer-- if they ever were to do it.

 It would not be hard at all...Fallout 3 did it! You dont have to change a thing! Just pick up where he left off, and that is where is takes a breath at the end!

You misread my quote. Word added for emphasis.

You missread me as well. They dont need to "fix" the "current" ending by changing anything at all. Just make DLC like Fallout 3 did.

They don't need to add anything to the story to fix it, though. That tweet you just read is a good hint of where they're heading: they're trying to salvage what's currently in the ending. They don't need indoctrination for that. Sure, it's possible they'll use it-- but it's unlikely.

[Dreogan]

Cyan-Glow wrote...

The real "proof" for me is the dream elements after the reaper beam hits you. We could at least agree that it's happening in some sort of alternative or augmented reality. It's not presented in a very coherent fashion, I agree, but the elements are there. (Trees, slowed motion, illogical interactions, appearances, and of course the wounds)

That is unless Shepard is so out of it from exhaustion he is hallucinating and imposing made up elements onto the real world, but that's a much more twisted take on things.

I see it like this:
1) Shepard exists in some sort of alternative world/dream
2) Thus he is not really capable of activating the crucible

If we can agree on these two things then it follows that the rest of the events could not have occurred for real. IT is the best explanation of this so far.

Negative, most direct "best" explanation of the above is the writers **** the bed. This is not simple opinion, it is based in the structure of the story itself. Circumstantial evidence scattered across multiple games is trivial compared to story structure.

[draken-heart]

head canon fixes everything. just saying.

[Dreogan]

draken-heart wrote...

head canon fixes everything. just saying.

And this is the result of most people when they encounter a breach of the writer-reader contract which results in the shattering of the suspension of disbelief. The human mind flails, trying to make sense of the story. It's even harder to let go when a trusted author manages to do this; much like we're seeing with Mass Effect.

In this circumstance, head cannon is apropos: blast it from memory with the cannon in your mind.
Headcanon would be indoctrination.

Modifié par Dreogan, 25 mars 2012 - 01:28 .

[KevShep]

Pride Demon wrote...



But it's a fact, that while the "oh, indoctrination, clever..." trick may seem interesting now, if they confirm that to be the case and the DLC actually gives you an ending (by picking the destroy option and not getting indoctrinated), what incentive would you still have to pick the other two "false" endings...

None! They become a superfluos trick as no one who has played the game will fall for it anymore... So one might as well remove it no?


The choice is now a non choice, since if I want to experience the new content I am FORCED to pick a very specific path: that's railroading, plain and simple...


This is my opinion of course, don't mean to offend...

Bioware has stated that they want it to be the most talked about and most memorable ending of all time. Casey said he wanted to get people to speculate and that is EXACTLY what has happend. As to why would you pick the other two endings? Its simple........Its your first play through. just like in ME2 and other game, would you make the bad decisions the second time?...No you would not! Its the same thing.

Its clever trick that has not been used before and it works. It gets peoples emotions twisted just like a Mass Effect game should!

[draken-heart]

the writers having these endings the way they do so that we, the players, can end the story our way, is my theory and i am sticking by it.

[Xarathos]

Ah, yes, "Indoctrination." We have dismissed that claim.

No, seriously, it's a good theory. The only thing that's bothered me about it is seeing some of its supporters jump on people who just don't like the ending and claim that they don't like the ending because they 'don't understand it.'

Look, the theory is good, but some of us just don't like it. We want an ending that we can take at face value for a series that's always tried to be taken at face value. This isn't the Matrix, nor is it Inception, and it's definitely not Deus Ex.

That said, the fact that Shepard's eyes change in 2 of the 3 endings on its OWN is nearly enough to make a believer out of me... and part of me wants to believe in it because the alternative is to believe that BioWare suddenly lost all their talent for storytelling and writing in the last 10 minutes of the game.

BUT... this creates one major problem.

IF Indoctrination theory is FALSE... ending is just BAD and needs to be fixed.

IF Indoctrination theory is TRUE... ending was sold to us INCOMPLETE, which is almost a greater crime.

I honestly don't know which one I think is worse. I try to apply Occam's Razor, but ... I don't know which belief is simpler, either.

Modifié par Xarathos, 25 mars 2012 - 01:34 .

[DJBare]

draken-heart wrote...

head canon fixes everything. just saying.

Perhaps the gaming industry could market it,
"We've got a story concept to fire up your imagination, for only $60 we give you the idea and let you do the rest with your imagination, we will also suppliment this with paragraph DLC for only $10, get the collectors edition complete with book marker for only $80"

Modifié par DJBare, 25 mars 2012 - 01:32 .

[XXIceColdXX]

the Indoctrination Theory is genius. Sorry OP not on board with your resistance.

[KevShep]

Dreogan wrote...


They don't need to add anything to the story to fix it, though. That tweet you just read is a good hint of where they're heading: they're trying to salvage what's currently in the ending. They don't need indoctrination for that. Sure, it's possible they'll use it-- but it's unlikely.

There is no way to salvage that!

If you try then the anger is going to over flow making matter worse. They cant give an explaination for the sake of so many disliking the ending altogether!

[Dreogan]

KevShep wrote...

Dreogan wrote...


They don't need to add anything to the story to fix it, though. That tweet you just read is a good hint of where they're heading: they're trying to salvage what's currently in the ending. They don't need indoctrination for that. Sure, it's possible they'll use it-- but it's unlikely.

There is no way to salvage that!

If you try then the anger is going to over flow making matter worse. They cant give an explaination for the sake of so many disliking the ending altogether!

Do not underestimate the author's power over their world. They underestimated us-- we shouldn't make the same mistake.

[Cyan-Glow]

@ Dreogan:

I see you point, but I'm inclined to see the previous dreams as preparation for the indoctrination sequence. I don't think they did it properly, but by the time you were hit by the beam you should have been so familiar with the kid/scenery/ and general feeling of the vivid dreams that you should say "aha it's all in the mind"

I respect the other point of view as well though; who know what' they'll release on us.

[KevShep]

Dreogan wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dreogan wrote...


They don't need to add anything to the story to fix it, though. That tweet you just read is a good hint of where they're heading: they're trying to salvage what's currently in the ending. They don't need indoctrination for that. Sure, it's possible they'll use it-- but it's unlikely.

There is no way to salvage that!

If you try then the anger is going to over flow making matter worse. They cant give an explaination for the sake of so many disliking the ending altogether!

Do not underestimate the author's power over their world. They underestimated us-- we shouldn't make the same mistake.

There power over there wold is given to them by us! They screwed up big time if this is there actuall ending so I actually overestimated them.