287 réponses à ce sujet

[justafan]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

The Reapers send at least one dreadnought to destroy the Crucible, and apparently it's enough, given enough time.

I think the mere fact that the Crucible is able to dock with the citadel is telling of the Aliied Fleet's strength.  The reapers moved the citadel to Earth to prevent that very scenario!  It is then logical to assume, that in order for the Crucible to dock, the allied fleet was successful at pushing back whatever Reaper fleet was assigned to guard what they knew was the key to their undoing.

[DarkBladeX98]

Me with a Cain.
Garrus with a Cain.
Liara with a Cain.

Problem solved.

[GnusmasTHX]

justafan wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

The Reapers send at least one dreadnought to destroy the Crucible, and apparently it's enough, given enough time.

I think the mere fact that the Crucible is able to dock with the citadel is telling of the Aliied Fleet's strength.  The reapers moved the citadel to Earth to prevent that very scenario!  It is then logical to assume, that in order for the Crucible to dock, the allied fleet was successful at pushing back whatever Reaper fleet was assigned to guard what they knew was the key to their undoing.

But the full force of the Reapers is never arrayed against the Crucible.

For whatever reason, it just isn't. Even at the end when the Crucible is going off, there are three full dreadnoughts and a destroyer just arriving that didn't seem to care it was up there.

Not to mention, you'd think at one point the Catalyst would just tell the Reapers to **** off, if he's already decided he would retire and let Shepard do everything. But he doesn't do that, either, apparently.

From a strategic view, the Crucible was harmless until someone opened the arms, and I guess that was what Harbinger was trying to prevent. Somehow, despite being able to possess the Collector's from a million miles away, he didn't realize Shepard was still alive a step in front of him.

Of course they decided not to,

A: Like you said, focus on destroying the Crucible. 
or B: Turn off or destroy the Conduit.

(or C: Turn off the Relays)

Terrible judgement aside, things point to Reapers winning in space. I'll give Hackett the benefit of the doubt and assume he knows his ****.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 25 mars 2012 - 05:35 .

[drak4806.2]

Because the Reapers are so stupid in ME3 in regards to logic and basic military tactics then yes we could have won using so called conventional means. Though considering that the Reapers are controlled by a ghost god kid it shouldn't surprise me that they're so stupid.

First off have the Reapers ever heard of something called an EMP? If the Reapers had EMPed( is that how you spell it in the past tense?) Earth by detonating a half a dozen 50 megaton thermonucear devices in orbit the could have greatly softened us up and made a after invasion resistance almost impossible.

Second, why would you land your capital ships on a planet inorder to destroy its cities instead of bombarding them from orbit? Especially if landing on a planet greatly weakens your shields.

Third, why don't you use your massive fleet to take the Citadel and use it to turn off the mass relays like you did in every other cycle? Or you know have your god kid leader do it for you.

Frankly I don't know how the Reapers have lasted all these millions of years with this kind of stupidity.

[TeaKae421]

I have to admit that when I saw the sheer scale of the allied fleet Shepard had assembled it seemed possible that it could have done some serious damage. Considering the fact the player had already heard of occasions in which Reapers had been destroyed by Turians for example, not to mention those you'd had a hand in destroying, the Reapers had lost some of their impact, seeing as they were anything but invincible.

I think one of the biggest missed opportunities, if not just to show off some fancy visuals, would have been to expand on the battle in orbit a little more. I don't recall hearing too many updates as to how the battle was going, I mean, was Sword winning? Was it getting completely destroyed? It's pretty important that we know what is going on up there, I felt we could have used some more information, not just that, but seen those damn war assets playing a part and seriously impacting the success or failure of the allied fleets.

I think more than anything that irks me most, judging by the ending, it really didn't matter one iota how many fleets I assembled, the cutscene wouldn't have really changed and nothing new would have happaned anyway.

[Supercollider]

Up until 3, I had gotten the impression that a conventional battle was what we'd be fighting, not building some ancient magical weapon.

Looking at the information we had from 1 and 2, its a reasonable conclusion that the Reapers actually aren't THAT much more advanced in ship-to-ship combat than the current races. Their weapons were rapidly reverse engineered and easily added to the current fleets (so its not like we're talking bows vs. guns here), and they use powerful BUT CONVENTIONAL FTLs and kinetic barriers. Yes, it took the whole fleet to take down Sovereign, but the fleet was caught completely unprepared and without Thanix cannons. I'd always assumed that in each cycle, the Reapers attacked before the organics could pose a serious threat, since the derelict reaper indicates that they don't seem to advance or research in any significant way; they just use organics to reproduce. And in this cycle, their usual method of attack has been hobbled, which SHOULD BE a huge boon to the victims.

I realize some in this thread have used Hackett's word as Word of God, but I at least considered this from a narrative perspective. I was all geared up for the Battle to End All Battles, not a deus ex machina. So when Hackett started saying things like "the Reapers can't be defeated through conventional means," that was the first danger sign that foreshadowed the ending to me, because "conventional means" certainly killed Sovereign, the human reaper, and various other Reapers in and out of the camera view. He's just the writers justifying a deus ex machina instead of just having a huge battle, which I think the evidence indicates would have been difficult but winnable. That's what I (and I assume I'm not alone) thought 3 was going to be about; preparing and sacrificing and facing down impossible odds. That's not what we got.

[TeaKae421]

Supercollider wrote...

I realize some in this thread have used Hackett's word as Word of God, but I at least considered this from a narrative perspective. I was all geared up for the Battle to End All Battles, not a deus ex machina. So when Hackett started saying things like "the Reapers can't be defeated through conventional means," that was the first danger sign that foreshadowed the ending to me, because "conventional means" certainly killed Sovereign, the human reaper, and various other Reapers in and out of the camera view. He's just the writers justifying a deus ex machina instead of just having a huge battle, which I think the evidence indicates would have been difficult but winnable.

I agree completely.

Once I heard the 'by conventional means' line for about the 3rd time, you could see it coming. They seemed so adamant about it that you had to assume the Reapers were so far ahead of all other races that it would be a total mismatch.

The problem is that despite the fact Sovereign was immensely powerful, it was destroyed via conventional means, Shepard himself had a hand in destroying two Reapers in ME3, albeit one was taken down by the Maw, but the second one....how much more conventional can you get than basically lasing a target for precision fire?

Seems relatively straightforward enough, it's the Independance Day flaw, aim for their primary weapon = win. The Reapers had by the end of the game already lost some of their effect in my eyes and were thoroughly beatable. It seemed set up for a gigantic confrontation a la Return of the Jedi, which was a mismatch on paper, but in the end, do enough damage and even the biggest ships can be taken down. Besides it didn't seem to me as though the allied fleet lacked firepower, it certainly didn't lack numbers.

I just see so many negatives to not expanding on the battle in orbit, it should have been going on around whatever it was Shepard himself, individually was having to do to turn the tide decisively. It was all set up, but they managed to lose it somehow. It's a real shame to be honest.

Modifié par TeaKae421, 25 mars 2012 - 05:55 .

[Jenop]

TeaKae421 wrote...

Supercollider wrote...

I realize some in this thread have used Hackett's word as Word of God, but I at least considered this from a narrative perspective. I was all geared up for the Battle to End All Battles, not a deus ex machina. So when Hackett started saying things like "the Reapers can't be defeated through conventional means," that was the first danger sign that foreshadowed the ending to me, because "conventional means" certainly killed Sovereign, the human reaper, and various other Reapers in and out of the camera view. He's just the writers justifying a deus ex machina instead of just having a huge battle, which I think the evidence indicates would have been difficult but winnable.

I agree completely.

Once I heard the 'by conventional means' line for about the 3rd time, you could see it coming. They seemed so adamant about it that you had to assume the Reapers were so far ahead of all other races that it would be a total mismatch.

The problem is that despite the fact Sovereign was immensely powerful, it was destroyed via conventional means, Shepard himself had a hand in destroying two Reapers in ME3, albeit one was taken down by the Maw, but the second one....how much more conventional can you get than basically lasing a target for precision fire?

Seems relatively straightforward enough, it's the Independance Day flaw, aim for their primary weapon = win. The Reapers had by the end of the game already lost some of their effect in my eyes and were thoroughly beatable. It seemed set up for a gigantic confrontation a la Return of the Jedi, which was a mismatch on paper, but in the end, do enough damage and even the biggest ships can be taken down. Besides it didn't seem to me as though the allied fleet lacked firepower, it certainly didn't lack numbers.

I just see so many negatives to not expanding on the battle in orbit, it should have been going on around whatever it was Shepard himself, individually was having to do to turn the tide decisively. It was all set up, but they managed to lose it somehow. It's a real shame to be honest.

These two statements sum up everything I felt about the final confrontation, my discussion on the Crucible aside.

[812memphis]

if my whole fleet would be destroyed when trying to defeat the reapers around earth by conventinal means i would be more satisfied :>

to the post above me (and several others)

Same happend to the Borg in Star Trek Voyager. Hate that too!

Modifié par 812memphis, 25 mars 2012 - 07:59 .

[DeadLetterBox]

Conventional meaning slug it out? No. Maybe they could have taken back Earth or Palaven or even Thessia, but then there would be the attrition to deal with and they could not keep what they had.

Same reason why humans probably wouldn't have won a conventional war with the turians.

Now, if you combine conventional war with cyberwarfare, which is what we should have been pursuing anyway against a foe like the reapers, then maybe. Sort of like how the humans may well have come up with tactics that beat the turians up pretty badly, the possibility of which scared the council into giving humanity an embassy almost right away.

[Hudathan]

Zix13 wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Nope. 

Capital class Reapers are incredibly tough to destroy. It would take down hundreds of ships before you could kill it. And theres atleast hundreds if ot thousands of them.

Codex says 4 dreadnaughts can destroy a reaper capital ship.

And the combined galactic fleet couldn't have had more than 20-30 total dreadnaught class ships considering their losses during the initial Reaper attack and the fact that Citadel policy clearly dictated a limit on dreadnaughts. The only thing that would have happened if the Crucible didn't stop the Reapers somehow would be for the combined fleet to eventually die to the last ship. Anyone that believes otherwise did not pay attention during the numerous conversations with Admiral Hackett who explicitly stated that a conventional war cannot be won between the galactic fleet and the Reapers.

How was the battle supposed to be winnable? At some point you have to attack the Reapers where they are concentrated instead of picking them off one by one. The galactic fleet simply did not have the numbers or firepower that the Reapers possessed.

Modifié par Hudathan, 25 mars 2012 - 08:29 .

[Scyldemort]

Hudathan wrote...

How was the battle supposed to be winnable? At some point you have to attack the Reapers where they are concentrated instead of picking them off one by one. The galactic fleet simply did not have the numbers or firepower that the Reapers possessed.

Maybe yours didn't.

[Wraithlord_200]

Exactly how many Reapers are there anyway? The only number I've seen is 'thousands' and when you're talking about a galaxy that's not really a whole lot. Considering the Reapers seem to need millions - maybe billions of harvested people to replace one lost ship, I don't see why the united galaxy couldn't win in the long run (albiet with devestating losses). Remember, the main reason the Reapers win in all the other cycles is because they take the citadel and lock down all the mass relays which lets them hit each system with overwhelming force.

[Elyiia]

Hudathan wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Nope. 

Capital class Reapers are incredibly tough to destroy. It would take down hundreds of ships before you could kill it. And theres atleast hundreds if ot thousands of them.

Codex says 4 dreadnaughts can destroy a reaper capital ship.

And the combined galactic fleet couldn't have had more than 20-30 total dreadnaught class ships considering their losses during the initial Reaper attack and the fact that Citadel policy clearly dictated a limit on dreadnaughts. The only thing that would have happened if the Crucible didn't stop the Reapers somehow would be for the combined fleet to eventually die to the last ship. Anyone that believes otherwise did not pay attention during the numerous conversations with Admiral Hackett who explicitly stated that a conventional war cannot be won between the galactic fleet and the Reapers.

How was the battle supposed to be winnable? At some point you have to attack the Reapers where they are concentrated instead of picking them off one by one. The galactic fleet simply did not have the numbers or firepower that the Reapers possessed.

The Geth alone had 30 odd Dreadnaughts.

[Malchus]

Based off information from the codex,

The Reaper fleet at Earth could have been completely destroyed through a combination of tactics, planning and all the goddamn scientists and resources wasted on that stupid crucible.

[Clayless]

But there's tens of thousands of Reapers judging by the galaxy map. The Reapers would've won, they can also go on the offensive people and make their own plans. Not only that but they can create ground forces out of dead bodies and turn people into moles.

The galaxy might have been able to win a fight like the one over Earth, but if Harbinger led a fleet of say just 1000 Reapers against them, the galaxy would lose that fight.

[Armass81]

There was no way of beating them conventionally. Why are people clinging to this?

[Flextt]

Actually, Reaper capital ships can be destroyed with only 2 dreadnoughts, 4 are a guaranteed win. Giving the massive support from frigates and cruisers, which are arguably much more numerous than the few dozen dreadnoughts left, I think a high enough EMS should allow a conventional win maybe in conjunction with the Crucible.

edit: the numbers are from a codex entry I think

In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold
off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly
causes strain, and four typically results in destruction.

From Codex / Reapers / Reaper vulnerabilties

Modifié par Flextt, 25 mars 2012 - 12:12 .

[Titan_HQ]

Depends what you mean by convention.
If you mean a straight up head-on fleet battle, the no. The Reapers are too numerous to engage like that.
If you just mean could we win without using the super-weapon, then yes. Oh god yes. Here is how:

Wikipedia...

Asymmetric Warfare:

"Asymmetric warfare" can describe a conflict in which the resources of
two belligerents differ in essence and in the struggle, interact and
attempt to exploit each other's characteristic weaknesses... the "weaker" combatants attempting to use strategy to offset deficiencies in quantity or quality... This is in contrast to symmetric warfare, where two powers have
similar military power and resources and rely on tactics that are
similar overall, differing only in details and execution.

It[AW] is essentially violent conflict between a formal military and an informal, poorly-equipped, but resilient opponent.

The races of the Galaxy have more than enough resources to mount a guerrilla war against the Reapers and win.

[Robhuzz]

Hudathan wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Nope. 

Capital class Reapers are incredibly tough to destroy. It would take down hundreds of ships before you could kill it. And theres atleast hundreds if ot thousands of them.

Codex says 4 dreadnaughts can destroy a reaper capital ship.

And the combined galactic fleet couldn't have had more than 20-30 total dreadnaught class ships considering their losses during the initial Reaper attack and the fact that Citadel policy clearly dictated a limit on dreadnaughts. The only thing that would have happened if the Crucible didn't stop the Reapers somehow would be for the combined fleet to eventually die to the last ship. Anyone that believes otherwise did not pay attention during the numerous conversations with Admiral Hackett who explicitly stated that a conventional war cannot be won between the galactic fleet and the Reapers.

How was the battle supposed to be winnable? At some point you have to attack the Reapers where they are concentrated instead of picking them off one by one. The galactic fleet simply did not have the numbers or firepower that the Reapers possessed.

Wrong

By the time the war started, the turians alone had 39 dreadnoughts, the asari had 20, 16 for the salarians, 9 for the humans and the Volus also constructed 1. The Geth had around 30 dreadnoughts. Put them all together in an optimal situation makes over 110 dreadnoughts. Many of them were probably destroyed during the battle but they'll definitely have several dozen of them left. Probably not enough to destroy the Reaper fleet in the end, but enough to make a serious dent in their numers. Way more than that if you play your cards right.


ETA: I still don't think a conventional war would've been winnable. Even if you could fight a guerillia style war against the Reapers for a long time, military masterminds and footsoldiers alike would eventually fall to indoctrination. Thus ending the resistance effort.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 25 mars 2012 - 12:35 .

[Renew81]

I do believe they could have been beaten that way..

but that would have been to much strain on the thinking department
its much more easyer to just introduce a godchild with a bunch of BS
and then call it "art"

They seemed to be blowing up just fine in me 3 so yeah..
it might not have been a pretty fight but it would have been a good one to watch.

Modifié par Renew81, 25 mars 2012 - 12:41 .

[Nicator]

Keep in mind that there is a report Liara's office which says that at the rate the war is progressing the galactic economy will collapse whitin a year.
With this deadline guerilla warfare is out of the question.

[Corvus74]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

But there's tens of thousands of Reapers judging by the galaxy map. The Reapers would've won, they can also go on the offensive people and make their own plans. Not only that but they can create ground forces out of dead bodies and turn people into moles.

The galaxy might have been able to win a fight like the one over Earth, but if Harbinger led a fleet of say just 1000 Reapers against them, the galaxy would lose that fight.

10s of thousands?  They don't appear to have anywhere near that many.

The Reapers pull most of thier forces back to Earth to defend the Citadel and the cutscenes show them to only seem to number in the hundreds, while the alliance numbers in the thousands.

[Zkyire]

Lyrandori wrote...

The Thanix Cannon's related information for ME3 says:

« After the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers spent three months clearing the station's orbit of debris. During the cleanup, the turians secretly salvaged Sovereign's powerful main gun along with much of the weapon's element zero core. Eleven months later, the turians introduced the Thanix, a scaled-down version of the weapon. The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with enough force to pierce any known shield or armor. The gun can fire reliably every five seconds. The weapon's relatively small size allows it to be mounted on most fighters or frigates. It is now widely used by the Alliance military and is the primary weapon on the refurbished Normandy SR-2. »

The bolded part is when I had a good laugh. If the Alliance had indeed used it as often as it seems to be implied that it is widely bieng used by them, then I'm pretty sure that we would have SEEN it happen, no? Can anyone recall seeing a SINGLE Alliance ship at the end firing a Thanix-like cannon just ONCE?

Hell, even the Normandy doesn't use it in ME3.



This game really dropped the ball =/

[spychi]

Armass81 wrote...

There was no way of beating them conventionally. Why are people clinging to this?

Just because you say so doesn't make it a fact!

there is one cinematic that proves they could be, few alliance dreadnoughts destroy one reaper, another one goes down but not without a fight and it destroys one of the ships

While Reaper ships in the SOL system were probably in few hundred or even a thousand, the alliance in the best EMS has hundreds of thousands of ships
not to mention those little ones, that had equipped the Thanix cannons, which oneshot the collectors base in ME2, although Joker had to get in close to finish them off (Shepard's orders)
so yeah without a doubt they could have been beaten off and I bet my ass on the line that not all ships were used in that battle like 30% of them were in their native base of operations

Nicator wrote...

Keep in mind that there is a report Liara's office which says that at the rate the war is progressing the galactic economy will collapse whitin a year.
With this deadline guerilla warfare is out of the question.

who gives a rat ass about what she says, the game treats you like a fool after all

Modifié par spychi, 25 mars 2012 - 02:00 .