287 réponses à ce sujet

[ronnok]

Zkyire wrote...

Plant massive nuclear weapons inside buildings in a city, make sure the Reapers are made known it is populated and sparsely defended.

Wait for them to come.

Detonate the nukes and wipe them out.

Not very paragon but it'll get the job done.


Or create a minefield around a Mass Relay, leak intel to Reaper forces of an operation going on in that system. Wait for them to jump in; detonate the mines.

Hell, they could even use civilian ships. They don't have to be well armed or anything. Just basic civilian transports, filled with high-yield warheads, and send them on automated suicide runs at the Reapers in massive numbers.


Unfortunately Mass Effect 3 took the approach of "They have to be military ships only, fighting in conventional ship to ship warfare only" approach.

Reapers could have been defeated, easily.

glad im not the only one who thought this strategy would work even if it is kind of ruthless.
why it wont let me use the devilface i will never know....

Modifié par ronnok, 25 mars 2012 - 02:41 .

[Arl Raylen]

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...

[Thalorin1919]

Absolutely not.

By the end of the game things were getting desperate. Reaper forces were pretty much invading every system and conquering them one by one. Once they moved the Citadel, it was game over, and that's why all the fleets massed for one final effort to get the Crucible to the Citadel.

I understand you guys want a different ending, but this war wouldn't of had been won by conventional means. Yeah, the fleets were able to buy time - but those were only the Reapers in the Sol System. What about the REST of the Reapers? I doubt the Fleet would've been able to conventionally win at the Sol System anyways, and even if they did, their remaining forces wouldn't of had been nearly enough to take on the rest of the galaxy.

The war assets at the end, your EMS, are for getting the Crucible to the Citadel at Earth. The whole point of that Fleet was to do just that. 

Modifié par Thalorin1919, 25 mars 2012 - 02:42 .

[Troubleshooter11]

The Codex gives examples of how Sovereign class Reapers have been killed by combining the fire of 3-4 dreadnaughts, aswell as jumping in close to 'knife-fight' range and hit em hard while the Reapers slowly turn to face the enemy ships. One Alliance Admiral heard the Reapers were coming and had his Dreadnaughts lined up perfectly to punch some Reapers in the face the moment they came out of the Relay, actually slowing them down and presumably damaging them until too many Reapers arrived.

Furthermore, the Reapers did not jump in through the Citadel this cycle, allowing the races a lot of time to prepare and counter, something the previous cycles didnt have.
The Proteans fought the Reapers for several centuries even though Javik clearly states their centralised and standardised nature gave them a massive disadvantage and that this cycle could do far better because of the different tactics and races and fighting styles.

Numerous Reapers have been destroyed planetside by the use of warp/nuclear bombs carried by 'prisoners'. Basically, suicide bombers.

Last but not least, this cycle has access to Reaper weapons: The Thanix cannon developed by the Turians from the wreckage of Sovereign. Their effectiveness when mounted on a oversized frigate like the Normandy SR-2 is extremely high, just 2 shots blew up the Collector heavy cruiser. That's a ship far above a frigate's weight. Infact, that same Collector cruiser took out a patrol of Turian cruisers, and the Thanix just blew through it.

This sheer effectiveness is probably the very reason why we dont see the Thanix anywhere in the game other than in the codex. Showing the Thanix in action might lessen the feeling of urgency to find a deus-ex-machina.

Sadly, all these small victories happen offscreen. Unconventional warfare and tactics would not be enough to win in the long run because of the sheer amount of Reapers. So an advantage would have to be found.

That advantage HAS ALREADY BEEN FOUND, 2,5 years before ME3, when Sovereign's avatar in the form of Saren's body was destroyed by Shepard. Suddenly Sovereign lost his shields and didnt return fire. Why was this completely hand-waved away insted of using it as a very cool and fitting way to gain the advantage over the Reapers? Some signal disruption was going on the moment Shepard destroyed Saren's body, and noone even mentioned how that seemed odd or how examing it could perhaps lead to some way to reproduce it and neuter the Reapers.

But no...sadly the idea moment Admiral Hackett contacts us for the first time, the idea of being unable to win without space-magic or last minute super-duper deus-ex-machina gets shoved down our throats. I had a major feeling of dread when Hackett's transmission mentioned "cannot win conventionally", "go to mars archives" "only way to stop the Reapers"......

[Thalorin1919]

NA1 wrote...

I haven't read this thread, but judging from the first page... none of you know what 'conventional warfare' means.

[Corvus74]

SNascimento wrote...

Zkyire wrote...


Plant massive nuclear weapons inside buildings in a city, make sure the Reapers are made known it is populated and sparsely defended.

Wait for them to come.

Detonate the nukes and wipe them out.

Not very paragon but it'll get the job done.


Or create a minefield around a Mass Relay, leak intel to Reaper forces of an operation going on in that system. Wait for them to jump in; detonate the mines.

Hell, they could even use civilian ships. They don't have to be well armed or anything. Just basic civilian transports, filled with high-yield warheads, and send them on automated suicide runs at the Reapers in massive numbers.


Unfortunately Mass Effect 3 took the approach of "They have to be military ships only, fighting in conventional ship to ship warfare only" approach.

Reapers could have been defeated, easily.

.
No, they can not.
.
People here are just creating scenarios and saying they would work, with no evidance whatsoever to back them. 

The evidence comes directly from what is seen in game and written in the codex.

The biggest reason I think it is possible in this cycle is the actions of the Reapers themselves.  If they were so convinced that they couldn't possibly loose a direct war then why did they go out of there way not once but three times to avoid that very scenario?  First with the Rachni, then Saren and finally the Collectors, during which time they gave their victims valuable intel and technology.

If they thought otherwise they'd have just come blasting in the moment they realised the Citadel wasn't working, harvested everyone and gone back out to dark space, taking their losses and knowing they could recover them in future cycle which would now go according to their original plans.

[Mixon]

Where is victory? Massrelay are destroyed anyway even with 10k was assets. All kind of races are trapped on Earth in Solar system, it's doom for Earth.

[Corvus74]

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...

The vast majority of Reaper ships, according to the Codex, are in fact destroyers.  The Codex also states said destroyers can be taken out by single cruisers or even fighters if they get the jump on them.

[Clayless]

Corvus74 wrote...

The evidence comes directly from what is seen in game and written in the codex.

The biggest reason I think it is possible in this cycle is the actions of the Reapers themselves.  If they were so convinced that they couldn't possibly loose a direct war then why did they go out of there way not once but three times to avoid that very scenario?  First with the Rachni, then Saren and finally the Collectors, during which time they gave their victims valuable intel and technology.

If they thought otherwise they'd have just come blasting in the moment they realised the Citadel wasn't working, harvested everyone and gone back out to dark space, taking their losses and knowing they could recover them in future cycle which would now go according to their original plans.

Because chosing the options where you would sustain the least losses first is better.

[Arl Raylen]

Troubleshooter11 wrote...

The Codex gives examples of how Sovereign class Reapers have been killed by combining the fire of 3-4 dreadnaughts, aswell as jumping in close to 'knife-fight' range and hit em hard while the Reapers slowly turn to face the enemy ships. One Alliance Admiral heard the Reapers were coming and had his Dreadnaughts lined up perfectly to punch some Reapers in the face the moment they came out of the Relay, actually slowing them down and presumably damaging them until too many Reapers arrived.

Furthermore, the Reapers did not jump in through the Citadel this cycle, allowing the races a lot of time to prepare and counter, something the previous cycles didnt have.
The Proteans fought the Reapers for several centuries even though Javik clearly states their centralised and standardised nature gave them a massive disadvantage and that this cycle could do far better because of the different tactics and races and fighting styles.

Numerous Reapers have been destroyed planetside by the use of warp/nuclear bombs carried by 'prisoners'. Basically, suicide bombers.

Last but not least, this cycle has access to Reaper weapons: The Thanix cannon developed by the Turians from the wreckage of Sovereign. Their effectiveness when mounted on a oversized frigate like the Normandy SR-2 is extremely high, just 2 shots blew up the Collector heavy cruiser. That's a ship far above a frigate's weight. Infact, that same Collector cruiser took out a patrol of Turian cruisers, and the Thanix just blew through it.

This sheer effectiveness is probably the very reason why we dont see the Thanix anywhere in the game other than in the codex. Showing the Thanix in action might lessen the feeling of urgency to find a deus-ex-machina.

Sadly, all these small victories happen offscreen. Unconventional warfare and tactics would not be enough to win in the long run because of the sheer amount of Reapers. So an advantage would have to be found.

That advantage HAS ALREADY BEEN FOUND, 2,5 years before ME3, when Sovereign's avatar in the form of Saren's body was destroyed by Shepard. Suddenly Sovereign lost his shields and didnt return fire. Why was this completely hand-waved away insted of using it as a very cool and fitting way to gain the advantage over the Reapers? Some signal disruption was going on the moment Shepard destroyed Saren's body, and noone even mentioned how that seemed odd or how examing it could perhaps lead to some way to reproduce it and neuter the Reapers.

But no...sadly the idea moment Admiral Hackett contacts us for the first time, the idea of being unable to win without space-magic or last minute super-duper deus-ex-machina gets shoved down our throats. I had a major feeling of dread when Hackett's transmission mentioned "cannot win conventionally", "go to mars archives" "only way to stop the Reapers"......

To your last point, it was mentioned that the Reapers fixed the issue that caused Sovereign to malfuntion when he lost control of Saren. Why else do you think Harbinger came back everytime you killed the collector he assumed direct control of?

[OrumLeader]

 It was possible.

According to Vigil in ME1, the reapers attacked by surprise and controled the Citidel killing what was equivilent to the Counsel.  The head of the government.  They then issolated all systems from each regarding travel and communications then began the systimatic extermination of the Protheans.

In this cycle, shepard united the galaxy against the reapers and they still had use of the communicaitons and the frame relay network.  This is something the reapers hadn't experieced before.

In my opionion, it makes a plausible scenerio.

[Arl Raylen]

Corvus74 wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...

The vast majority of Reaper ships, according to the Codex, are in fact destroyers.  The Codex also states said destroyers can be taken out by single cruisers or even fighters if they get the jump on them.

Right but the vast majority seen in the space battle sequences are Dreadnoughts. Just because the Destroyers are a vast majority doesn't mean the amount of Dreadnoughts are small.

[General User]

Zkyire wrote...
Plant massive nuclear weapons inside buildings in a city, make sure the Reapers are made known it is populated and sparsely defended.

Wait for them to come.

Detonate the nukes and wipe them out.

Not very paragon but it'll get the job done.

Aye.  That sounds very much like what the krogan and turians did during the Miracle at Palaven.  And it largely worked.

[Warrior Craess]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Nope. 

Capital class Reapers are incredibly tough to destroy. It would take down hundreds of ships before you could kill it. And theres atleast hundreds if ot thousands of them.

no read the codex, it only takes 4 (yeas 4) dreadnaughts to put the kabosh on a capital ship.  Concentration of fire is a wonderful thing. 

As for the ability to defeath them conventionally?  Unlikely, too many of the main industrial complexes were under reaper attack. The Galaxy organized too late to win a conventional war.  now if they'd had more time (you know started preparing directly after the 1st game) then yes it's likely that it could be done.  Economically crippling, but it could be done. It really isn't an issue with the various militaries, so much as it's an issue of the lack of preparation, and logistics. 

For all you people that think that superior tech always wins, you really should look into the different tactics used by the Russians and Nato forces back in the 70's and 80's.  From someone who was in the military and whose primary responce was to counter Russian tactics, I can tell you that guantity definetively has a guality all of it own. And it was far from certain that Nato forces, for all their technological superiority, would have won. 

[NPH11]

Possibly not in that particular battle, but the fleet certainly could've done enough damage to call it a strategic win. Slow the Reaper advance to a crawl, providing some time to possible recoup from your losses. Are the Reapers even capable of repairing themselves?

Hell, worse case scenario you could try to smash another meteor into the Charon relay. A huge sacrifice, but you buy quite a bit of time and possibly knock out a large chunk of the Reaper forces as well.

Modifié par NPH11, 25 mars 2012 - 02:53 .

[savaged49]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

Seeing as how the krogan/turian alliance managed to destroy several destroyer-class Reapers on Palaven I think it's very possible.

Wait what? I knew they pushed back reaper forces but i dont remeber hearing taking down destroyers

[General User]

savaged49 wrote...

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

Seeing as how the krogan/turian alliance managed to destroy several destroyer-class Reapers on Palaven I think it's very possible.

Wait what? I knew they pushed back reaper forces but i dont remeber hearing taking down destroyers

Capital ships too.

[Elyiia]

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...

I like how you pulled that number out of a hat. Really validates your point.

[Arl Raylen]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Nope. 

Capital class Reapers are incredibly tough to destroy. It would take down hundreds of ships before you could kill it. And theres atleast hundreds if ot thousands of them.

no read the codex, it only takes 4 (yeas 4) dreadnaughts to put the kabosh on a capital ship.  Concentration of fire is a wonderful thing. 

Right, but compared to Reaper Dreadnoughts ours are glass cannons. There are only around 50 left in the ENTIRE galaxy and while 4 of them can take on a Sovereign class ship, that same Reaper could take out a couple of those Dreadnoughts before he goes down. And then we're left with 48 Dreadnoughts while the Reapers still have enough to have several in every system of the known Galaxy....

[Troubleshooter11]

Arl Raylen wrote...

To your last point, it was mentioned that the Reapers fixed the issue that caused Sovereign to malfuntion when he lost control of Saren. Why else do you think Harbinger came back everytime you killed the collector he assumed direct control of?

Really? I must have completely missed that, do you happen to remember where it says that?

Even so, it's suprising a few dreadnaughts and cruisers can knock out a capital class Reaper using their "outdated" mass accelerator cannons.

I really, REALLY, wanted to see how the Normandy SR-2 would hold up when going toe-to-toe with a Reaper and dissecting the bastard with it's own weapon, the Thanix.

Just read the Codex of the Thanix: "The small size allows it to be mounted on most fighters or frigates. It is now widely used by the Alliance military." 
Has every captain and pilot of the Alliance forgotten to switch the flipping thing on and shoot some Reapers with it ?....

[Arl Raylen]

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...

I like how you pulled that number out of a hat. Really validates your point.

I like how you don't try to prove me wrong. Really validates the level of your douchiness.

[Legendaryred]

Yea, remember that bigass crater where a weapon was supposed to be there on some planet that took down that reaper on ME2 where you get the IFF.

[ronnok]

savaged49 wrote...

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

Seeing as how the krogan/turian alliance managed to destroy several destroyer-class Reapers on Palaven I think it's very possible.

Wait what? I knew they pushed back reaper forces but i dont remeber hearing taking down destroyers

its on the "miricle on/at palaven" section of the codex i think. its under "the reaper war" in the secondary codex
and the way i remember it they mostly destroy troop carriers and processing ships but that they take out some destroyers and capital ships also

Modifié par ronnok, 25 mars 2012 - 03:00 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Absolutely.

The Reaper's chosen tactics have been invalidated. The Mass Relays are active, we have had forewarning and are prepared. They rely on separating the current cycle's civilizations into easy to digest pieces.

This time, it's the galaxy against them in full force.

With high enough EMS, yes, I'd have thought that you could take on the Reapers. Hackett says he's prepared for that eventuality, everyone else is prepared to fight till the last. Granted you would still likely scrape it by the skin of your teeth with stupid losses, but it's much better and in-keeping with Shepard's character, a la, not accepting what anyone says, not giving into fate.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 25 mars 2012 - 03:00 .

[Bizbag]

It took the entire combined firepower of the Migrant Fleet to take down one Reaper on Rannoch. I don't think even if they exploited their weak spot, they'd have the combined firepower to defeat the Reapers. Plus, it's mentioned in the codex that Reapers' shields are much weaker if they're planetside due to having to reduce their mass.