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Was victory possible using conventional means?


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#176
The Night Mammoth

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Arl Raylen wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...


I like how you pulled that number out of a hat. Really validates your point.


I like how you don't try to prove me wrong. Really validates the level of your douchiness.


That's because he shouldn't have to. You prove your statement, you were the one who made it. 

#177
Vladen

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I dunno. ME1 made it seem like the Reapers were this unstoppable force. My impression from 1 was the Reapers took over the relay system, cut off communications and travel between the prothean empire and proceeded to rather swiftly wipe them out....as in over a few months or a few years at most. That was just an impression.

Then in 3 we find out the war had been going on a hundred years or more. That implies that they could be beaten conventionally. Slowly sure.... and maybe if certain conditions were met by whatever galactic civilzation was in charge.. But 3 itself is conflicting. We never really go toe to toe with the "classic" reaper, instead we fight and take down three destroyers. I'm not sure if that's an adequate example, though in space battles we do see at least one Reaper damaged (two "tentacles" destroyed).

I dunno, it seems there's conflicting evidence. I personally feel with a large enough fleet concentrated against a small enough Reaper force...sure....we could defeat them conventionally. What those numbers are I have no idea. Not enough evidence either way. But the Reapers are not invincible.

I kinda wonder if Shepard had been believed in the first place that the Galactic forces might've stood a much better chance at defeating them conventionally. Three years is a very long time if in the few weeks/months 3 takes place in they were able to build a device that they know nothing about.

#178
Elyiia

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Arl Raylen wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...


I like how you pulled that number out of a hat. Really validates your point.


I like how you don't try to prove me wrong. Really validates the level of your douchiness.


I'm not the one claiming numbers, if you want to do so you have to provide some kind of evidance.

#179
Arl Raylen

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Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...


I like how you pulled that number out of a hat. Really validates your point.


I like how you don't try to prove me wrong. Really validates the level of your douchiness.


I'm not the one claiming numbers, if you want to do so you have to provide some kind of evidance.


I still don't see anything here about you trying to disprove what I said about Reaper Dreadnoughts far outnumbering the amount of Organic Dreadnoughts. Try again.

#180
Elyiia

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Arl Raylen wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...


I like how you pulled that number out of a hat. Really validates your point.


I like how you don't try to prove me wrong. Really validates the level of your douchiness.


I'm not the one claiming numbers, if you want to do so you have to provide some kind of evidance.


I still don't see anything here about you trying to disprove what I said about Reaper Dreadnoughts far outnumbering the amount of Organic Dreadnoughts. Try again.


You made the claim, the burdon of proof is on you. Do you even understand how arguments work?

#181
Clayless

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Vladen wrote...

I dunno. ME1 made it seem like the Reapers were this unstoppable force. My impression from 1 was the Reapers took over the relay system, cut off communications and travel between the prothean empire and proceeded to rather swiftly wipe them out....as in over a few months or a few years at most. That was just an impression.

Then in 3 we find out the war had been going on a hundred years or more. That implies that they could be beaten conventionally. Slowly sure.... and maybe if certain conditions were met by whatever galactic civilzation was in charge.. But 3 itself is conflicting. We never really go toe to toe with the "classic" reaper, instead we fight and take down three destroyers. I'm not sure if that's an adequate example, though in space battles we do see at least one Reaper damaged (two "tentacles" destroyed).

I dunno, it seems there's conflicting evidence. I personally feel with a large enough fleet concentrated against a small enough Reaper force...sure....we could defeat them conventionally. What those numbers are I have no idea. Not enough evidence either way. But the Reapers are not invincible.

I kinda wonder if Shepard had been believed in the first place that the Galactic forces might've stood a much better chance at defeating them conventionally. Three years is a very long time if in the few weeks/months 3 takes place in they were able to build a device that they know nothing about.


Actually you find out in the first game it took hundreds of years to wipe out the Protheans.

#182
Arl Raylen

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Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...


I like how you pulled that number out of a hat. Really validates your point.


I like how you don't try to prove me wrong. Really validates the level of your douchiness.


I'm not the one claiming numbers, if you want to do so you have to provide some kind of evidance.


I still don't see anything here about you trying to disprove what I said about Reaper Dreadnoughts far outnumbering the amount of Organic Dreadnoughts. Try again.


You made the claim, the burdon of proof is on you. Do you even understand how arguments work?


It's not an argument if you're just trying to be a jackass. Or does the concept of a "figure of speech" elude you? 

If you really want proof, just go out scanning in ME3 or check out the ending cinematic to ME2. Amount of Dreadnoughts on the Reaper Side > Amount of Dreadnoughts on our side.

Next time I'll listen to my anti troll alarm inside my head and edit my post to say "100:1" so as not to attract posters such as yourself hahahahaha.

#183
Troubleshooter11

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Bizbag wrote...

It took the entire combined firepower of the Migrant Fleet to take down one Reaper on Rannoch. I don't think even if they exploited their weak spot, they'd have the combined firepower to defeat the Reapers. Plus, it's mentioned in the codex that Reapers' shields are much weaker if they're planetside due to having to reduce their mass.


Bizarrely, the entire combined firepower of the Migrant Fleet would/SHOULD have obliterated everything within a few square miles. Insted their firepower was lackluster at best.

Remember how the Codex specified that dreadnaughts etc are not allowed to fire on targets with habitable planets in the background, because their shots could obliterate cities? And how their main gun has the same energy as a nuclear bomb? Hell the drill sargeant from ME2 chewed up poor cowboy wannabe "Serviceman Cheng" for shooting from the hip...

Yet when we see the Migrant Fleet attacking the Destroyer class Reaper on Rannoch, we only seen a small portion of the fleet firing. I expected them to have a bit more firepower. I have seen AC-130 Spectres move more dirt than that!

#184
Warrior Craess

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ronnok wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Plant massive nuclear weapons inside buildings in a city, make sure the Reapers are made known it is populated and sparsely defended.

Wait for them to come.

Detonate the nukes and wipe them out.

Not very paragon but it'll get the job done.


Or create a minefield around a Mass Relay, leak intel to Reaper forces of an operation going on in that system. Wait for them to jump in; detonate the mines.

Hell, they could even use civilian ships. They don't have to be well armed or anything. Just basic civilian transports, filled with high-yield warheads, and send them on automated suicide runs at the Reapers in massive numbers.


Unfortunately Mass Effect 3 took the approach of "They have to be military ships only, fighting in conventional ship to ship warfare only" approach.

Reapers could have been defeated, easily.

glad im not the only one who thought this strategy would work even if it is kind of ruthless.
why it wont let me use the devilface i will never know....



yes a ground war could be fought to a draw, as long as the air war could be done the same.  Sadly it is unlikely that we could hold our own in more than a couple of places. 

Per the codex, ramming a ship at FTL speeds into another ship is rather difficult becuase at close range, the nav comps won't allow it. It's even explained that this nav comp stuff for FTL was a hand me down from the prothian, conviently...

BTW the miracle of Pravalen covers some of those strategies.  So yes, we could hurt them conventionally.  Just not enough. To much of our infrastructure for the Galxay is already under attack by reaper forces. 

#185
Arl Raylen

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Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vladen wrote...

I dunno. ME1 made it seem like the Reapers were this unstoppable force. My impression from 1 was the Reapers took over the relay system, cut off communications and travel between the prothean empire and proceeded to rather swiftly wipe them out....as in over a few months or a few years at most. That was just an impression.

Then in 3 we find out the war had been going on a hundred years or more. That implies that they could be beaten conventionally. Slowly sure.... and maybe if certain conditions were met by whatever galactic civilzation was in charge.. But 3 itself is conflicting. We never really go toe to toe with the "classic" reaper, instead we fight and take down three destroyers. I'm not sure if that's an adequate example, though in space battles we do see at least one Reaper damaged (two "tentacles" destroyed).

I dunno, it seems there's conflicting evidence. I personally feel with a large enough fleet concentrated against a small enough Reaper force...sure....we could defeat them conventionally. What those numbers are I have no idea. Not enough evidence either way. But the Reapers are not invincible.

I kinda wonder if Shepard had been believed in the first place that the Galactic forces might've stood a much better chance at defeating them conventionally. Three years is a very long time if in the few weeks/months 3 takes place in they were able to build a device that they know nothing about.


Actually you find out in the first game it took hundreds of years to wipe out the Protheans.


Not surprising either; the Protheans were a tough race. If the Collector Cruiser was any example, their Dreadnoughts would have been pretty deadly. Too bad they were jumped through the Citadel. They would have had a better chance to win conventionally than we did.

#186
Jenop

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sniper1250 wrote...

See, I made a post about what I think the crucible was designed to do. Long story short, I think it was a last ditch effort to stop the cycles by destroying the mass effect relays. People said the Reapers could just build new ones, but without all the materials just laying about it would take them too long and they would miss their queue for the next cycle and that species would not have grown on paths they determined so it would not be possible to continue the cycles like they were doing.

People didn't like my theory. Aparently no one cares about what the actual function of the crucible was.


See I tend to disagree with you on a slightly different note. I think the Crucible was actually Reaper tech to begin with and was designed to be a failsafe just in case the Reapers failed. It's not a lot to go on, but the Prothean VI on Thessia says  that the Crucible was actually a design from the first cycle and every cycle after that added it's own twist to it. When the Crucible attatches to the Citadel, the God-child says that it opened up new options, so I think we were the first cycle to actually complete the Crucible and attatch it to the Citadel.

More things that support my belief are how the Crucible seemingly affects all the Reapers through aformentioned "Space Magic" and the Mass Relays. Since it seems activating the Crucible in all of the endings destroys the Mass Relays, and hits every single Reaper, I'm guessing that it was designed by the Reapers and leaked to the cycle races to build.

Another reason why I believe it's a fail safe, and this could just be a massive plot hole but hey, Indoctrination theory thrives on plot holes, why can't my idea? Anywho, another reason is that once the Crucible is finished, the Reapers know it, attack the Citadel and move it to Earth. If the Reapers were as Godly powerful as they claim, why not just attack the Crucible and destroy it and the fleet assigned to protect it? Since the Reapers "Can't be defeated by conventional means" (Which I will get to in a minute), why not just cut through the Crucible and the surrounding fleet like butter and then go "Well, now we really can win"?

But back to the topic at hand, yes, I do believe we can win by conventional means. We've proven that it can be done in a number of situations and most of them were conventional.

Sovereign: After Seren died and it's barriers were disabled, Sovereign went down really easy. Yes, we lost a lot of ships, but if I remember correctly, it was the Alliance against Sovereign and an entire Geth fleet. This time it's a lot of Reapers against a Galaxy combined fleet.

The Human-Reaper Hybrid: Yes, it was incomplete, but it still counts in my mind. It died really easily, and that was just to ground forces, Heavy Weapons, and small arms fire/biotic/tech powers.

Tuchanka: Go go Giant Thresher Maw!

Rannoch: Laser Desgnator to the eye seems to win every time. I even recall Shepard and the Admiral (Can't remember his name) mentioning something about spreading the weakness to the rest of the fleets so they knew where to aim for the final battle.

Earth: Two rockets to the eye and it went down easily enough.

So again, yes, I think we could have won conventionally, but at some very heavy cost.

#187
Warrior Craess

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Troubleshooter11 wrote...

Bizbag wrote...

It took the entire combined firepower of the Migrant Fleet to take down one Reaper on Rannoch. I don't think even if they exploited their weak spot, they'd have the combined firepower to defeat the Reapers. Plus, it's mentioned in the codex that Reapers' shields are much weaker if they're planetside due to having to reduce their mass.


Bizarrely, the entire combined firepower of the Migrant Fleet would/SHOULD have obliterated everything within a few square miles. Insted their firepower was lackluster at best.

Remember how the Codex specified that dreadnaughts etc are not allowed to fire on targets with habitable planets in the background, because their shots could obliterate cities? And how their main gun has the same energy as a nuclear bomb? Hell the drill sargeant from ME2 chewed up poor cowboy wannabe "Serviceman Cheng" for shooting from the hip...

Yet when we see the Migrant Fleet attacking the Destroyer class Reaper on Rannoch, we only seen a small portion of the fleet firing. I expected them to have a bit more firepower. I have seen AC-130 Spectres move more dirt than that!


I don't recal there being many Drednaughts in the migrante fleet.  lots of Cruisers, and frigates, but they were not a significantly strong military unit.  Which would be why the single Geth Drednaught was able to do so much damage to the heavy fleet. 

#188
GnusmasTHX

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Corvus74 wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...


The vast majority of Reaper ships, according to the Codex, are in fact destroyers.  The Codex also states said destroyers can be taken out by single cruisers or even fighters if they get the jump on them.


That... doesn't help anyone's case for pro-conventional means.

The Reapers already outnumber the Allies dreadnought to dreadnought, now you're saying that the Reapers dreadnought numbers don't even account for the majority of their forces?

#189
justafan

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I do think it is possible to win conventionally based on what we know about space battles. First off, we know that the Thanix cannon can bypass shields (as stated in ME3), rediculous shield strength being a Reaper dreadnoughts trump card as showcased by Sovereign. the downside being you have to get close to use it. The upside being it can be mounted on fighters and frigates that can get close. Also the Battle for Earth looked like it was taking place in close quarters, so even if only the dreadnoughts and cruisers had Thanixs, they would be close enough to use them. Therefore, the argument that they "only" do a cruiser's worth of firepower is irrelevant, as it is doing the equivalent of a cruiser's firepower against an unshielded opponent.

But what if the reapers FTL as soon as the tide turns? Well the one advantage organics have against the reapers is numbers. plain and simple, Organics can reproduce faster than once every 50k years. As such, even if the reapers escaped, all their forces destroyed are irreplaceable. Meanwhile, in the time it takes for the reapers to reach the nearest unguarded relay, organics can be rebuilding their fleets. A protracted war ironically benefits organics because as grim as it sounds, our casualties can be replaced, and the reaper's can't. Even if they were to harvest all the colonies, they would get maybe a dozen more dreadnoughts, which is not nearly enough to make up for losses taken from the combined organic fleets.

Lastly, this war is unlike on the reapers have ever faced. The galaxy is united, the relay network is open to all factions, and Organics have access to mass produced Reaper weapons like the thanix. The reapers have never had to deal with this because they had a reliable strategy for millions of years that can't be used now. At the same time, Organics are learning Reaper weaknesses and how to exploit them. After all, the Turians alone were able to inflict significant damage to the Reapers a Palaven, imagine what a galactic armada could do.

#190
Elyiia

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Arl Raylen wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...


I like how you pulled that number out of a hat. Really validates your point.


I like how you don't try to prove me wrong. Really validates the level of your douchiness.


I'm not the one claiming numbers, if you want to do so you have to provide some kind of evidance.


I still don't see anything here about you trying to disprove what I said about Reaper Dreadnoughts far outnumbering the amount of Organic Dreadnoughts. Try again.


You made the claim, the burdon of proof is on you. Do you even understand how arguments work?


It's not an argument if you're just trying to be a jackass. Or does the concept of a "figure of speech" elude you? 

If you really want proof, just go out scanning in ME3 or check out the ending cinematic to ME2. Amount of Dreadnoughts on the Reaper Side > Amount of Dreadnoughts on our side.

Next time I'll listen to my anti troll alarm inside my head and edit my post to say "100:1" so as not to attract posters such as yourself hahahahaha.


I'm not being a jackass, I'm just sick of people who are making claims purely to remove credit from a warfare victory.

Based on the size of a fight verses one of the Reaper ships, they are mostly destroyers, not dreadnoughts. Not to mention, we don't even see our own full fleet, even if we have them. We don't see a single Geth destroyer so it's likely Shield isn't even shown.

#191
SaltyWaffles-PD

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Agamo45 wrote...

The fleet was getting torn to shreds from what I understood. The fleet was basically providing a distraction while 'Hammer' stormed the beam up into the Citadel.


Only if your EMS score was low. If it's high, you actually see the Allied Fleet as more than a match for the Reapers. Heck, based just on what we see in the cutscenes, the Reapers are actually rather likely to lose.

It makes a lot of sense if you think about it. If you have a very high EMS, your fleet is comprised of the sum of every significant fleet in the galaxy. Human, Turian, Asari, Salarian, Quarian, Geth (the massively UPGRADED geth, no less), Mercenary (which is pretty substantial), Krogan (what few ships they have), Volus, Hanar, Elcor, and the thousands of various utility vessels.

All told, such a fleet would number in at least 50,000 ships (not counting fighters and unarmed vessels, which would boost that number to something like 150,000). And that's a conservative estimate; the Migrant Fleet alone has 50,000 vessels (pre-Rannoch, admittedly, but a significant majority of them are still combat-capable, and nearly every ship is armed for combat). Add that to the geth fleet, the Alliance fleet (which numbered in at least 3-4 thousand before the Reaper invasion, based on various sources), the massive Turian fleet, the substantial asari and salarian fleets, the merc ships, and the minor races (volus, elcor, hanar).

Basically, the Allied Fleet would likely win with the Zerg Rush tactic they employed in the battle; the Codex confirms that this kind of tactic is effective against Reaper capital ships, and the destroyer class Reapers (which make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet) can be taken down by a few cruisers. Heck, you kill one with a single shot from a Cain.

Now, consider that the Reapers have already taken significant casualties even before the big battle. The Miracle at Palaven details how tons of Reapers across Palaven were taken out by a daring/brilliant operation with just ground forces and WMD's alone. This includes Reaper capital ships. Add in various other Reaper casualties (Tuchanka, Rannoch, the ones taken over the coarse of the war before the big battle, etc.), especially the initial fight for Palaven (where quite a number of Reaper capital ships were taken down), and things are looking up.

With a high EMS score, yes, the Allied Fleet would likely win conventionally. The Reaper capital ships--which were already whittled down before the battle--are relatively few in number, and vulnerable to Zerg Rush tactics (which were used in the battle). Reapers also have a known weak point, giving even fighters/bombers and light frigates the capability to significantly damage capital class Reapers.

The Allied Fleet vastly outnumbers the Reaper Fleet in terms of fighters and smaller craft, which means that the Reaper destroyers have their hands more than full just dealing with the huge number of smaller vessels (not even counting cruisers).

Lastly, it's important to remember that Hammer is attacking the Reapers on the ground. Hammer consists (or rather, should consist if the devs bothered to acknowledge what the game establishes beforehand) of a gigantic army, including many of the galaxy's most elite forces. Each Hades Cannon is essentially a modified Reaper destroyer, and all of them are taken down in the course of the assault on the conduit. Another Reaper destroyer is taken down shortly after. Assuming that Hammer is equiped with more weapons like the Cain, they could inflict serious casualties on the Reaper ships on the ground, too.

Ultimately, the answer to the OP's question is a strong "yes", if one has a high EMS score.

#192
ronnok

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Warrior Craess wrote...

ronnok wrote...


glad im not the only one who thought this strategy would work even if it is kind of ruthless.
why it wont let me use the devilface i will never know....



yes a ground war could be fought to a draw, as long as the air war could be done the same.  Sadly it is unlikely that we could hold our own in more than a couple of places. 

Per the codex, ramming a ship at FTL speeds into another ship is rather difficult becuase at close range, the nav comps won't allow it. It's even explained that this nav comp stuff for FTL was a hand me down from the prothian, conviently...

BTW the miracle of Pravalen covers some of those strategies.  So yes, we could hurt them conventionally.  Just not enough. To much of our infrastructure for the Galxay is already under attack by reaper forces. 

honestly i dont think that you need to go at FTL speeds to get close enough for nukes to be at least semi effective.

#193
Arl Raylen

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Do the ending space battle cinematics change at all if you are at 5000 EMS vs 6000 or 7000? Because it didn't seem much different to me at least in terms of what I saw when I did the ending with 2500 EMS and 5000...

#194
111987

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No way could we have won conventionally. If on average, one new Reaper Capital ship is added to their overall ranks each cycle (they lose a few, make a few so roughly it evens out; if it didn't, the Reapers would have adjusted their plans or they would slowly be dying out), and we know the Reapers are at LEAST 1 billion years old (Leviathan of Dis), that suggests there are about 20,000 Reaper Capital ships. Even if you want to divide that in half, that's 10,000 to deal with. Not to mention the thousands of Destroyers (it's stated Destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet).

The Turians and Geth have about 80 dreadnaughts total, the Asari 20, the Salarians 16, the Humans 8. This is also at the start of the war; we know each of the races has lost dreadnaughts. So even though on average you need 3-4 dreadnaughts to take down one Reaper Capital ship, the Reapers FAR outnumber the Citadel races dreadnaughts (which are the only real threats to Reaper Capital ships).

#195
SaltyWaffles-PD

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GnusmasTHX wrote...

Corvus74 wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...


The vast majority of Reaper ships, according to the Codex, are in fact destroyers.  The Codex also states said destroyers can be taken out by single cruisers or even fighters if they get the jump on them.


That... doesn't help anyone's case for pro-conventional means.

The Reapers already outnumber the Allies dreadnought to dreadnought, now you're saying that the Reapers dreadnought numbers don't even account for the majority of their forces?


The Reaper capital ships can be taken down by 3-4 dreadnaughts. At this point, it's likely that the Reaper capital ships don't significantly outnumber the Allied Fleet's dreadnaughts (if at all; cutscenes and Codex entries show suprisingly few of them).

They also have major weak points (their red "eyes"/weapons), allowing smaller craft to do significant damage.

The Reaper destroyers are VASTLY outnumbered by comaprable ships. The Allied Fleet's light frigates and fighters also vastly outnumber the Reapers' fighter force (only SOME of the capital class Reapers carry them, and the Reapers never demonstrate anything like GARDIAN defenses; they rely on just being able to tank everything long enough to pick them off one-by-one with their main gun/guns).

The Reapers (especially the destroyer class ones) have taken heavy casualties by the battle for Earth. Just look at the "Miracle at Palaven" codex entry, or how ground forces kill quite a few of them (Rannoch and Tuchanka account for 2, but Hammer also accounts for at least 5-7); they're also not nearly as formidable as the capital class Reapers; a couple of cruisers can take one down without too much difficulty.

#196
ronnok

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111987 wrote...

No way could we have won conventionally. If on average, one new Reaper Capital ship is added to their overall ranks each cycle (they lose a few, make a few so roughly it evens out; if it didn't, the Reapers would have adjusted their plans or they would slowly be dying out), and we know the Reapers are at LEAST 1 billion years old (Leviathan of Dis), that suggests there are about 20,000 Reaper Capital ships. Even if you want to divide that in half, that's 10,000 to deal with. Not to mention the thousands of Destroyers (it's stated Destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet).

The Turians and Geth have about 80 dreadnaughts total, the Asari 20, the Salarians 16, the Humans 8. This is also at the start of the war; we know each of the races has lost dreadnaughts. So even though on average you need 3-4 dreadnaughts to take down one Reaper Capital ship, the Reapers FAR outnumber the Citadel races dreadnaughts (which are the only real threats to Reaper Capital ships).

if that were true i think the cycle would be complete alot faster....

#197
SaltyWaffles-PD

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111987 wrote...

No way could we have won conventionally. If on average, one new Reaper Capital ship is added to their overall ranks each cycle (they lose a few, make a few so roughly it evens out; if it didn't, the Reapers would have adjusted their plans or they would slowly be dying out), and we know the Reapers are at LEAST 1 billion years old (Leviathan of Dis), that suggests there are about 20,000 Reaper Capital ships. Even if you want to divide that in half, that's 10,000 to deal with. Not to mention the thousands of Destroyers (it's stated Destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet).

The Turians and Geth have about 80 dreadnaughts total, the Asari 20, the Salarians 16, the Humans 8. This is also at the start of the war; we know each of the races has lost dreadnaughts. So even though on average you need 3-4 dreadnaughts to take down one Reaper Capital ship, the Reapers FAR outnumber the Citadel races dreadnaughts (which are the only real threats to Reaper Capital ships).


That's assuming that they don't take casualties each cycle. We know this isn't at all the case. Given that it's almost guaranteed that the Reapers lose at least a dozen destroyers and a single capital ship per cycle, the Reapers don't have anywhere near that number of ships. The cutscenes of the game completley support this: the Battle of Earth only shows a several dozen of them (capital class Reapers) at most.

That, and the Reapers have already taken heavy casualties even before the final battle. Look up the Miracle at Palaven in the codex.

Modifié par SaltyWaffles-PD, 25 mars 2012 - 03:25 .


#198
Americ4nPunk

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Looking at how badly Sovereign tore the whole alliance fleet up at the end of the first. I'd say no

#199
SaltyWaffles-PD

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Americ4nPunk wrote...

Looking at how badly Sovereign tore the whole alliance fleet up at the end of the first. I'd say no


It didn't, actually. It took out several cruisers, but that's it. It was only faced with a dozen or so cruisers, period. And Sovereign went down pretty quickly (or at least that's how the Codex suggests it).

It's important to note that capital class Reapers are sometimes referred to as "Sovereign-class"; and the Codex confirms that it only takes 3-4 dreadnaughts to bring them down.

#200
Warrior Craess

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Vladen wrote...

I dunno. ME1 made it seem like the Reapers were this unstoppable force. My impression from 1 was the Reapers took over the relay system, cut off communications and travel between the prothean empire and proceeded to rather swiftly wipe them out....as in over a few months or a few years at most. That was just an impression.

Then in 3 we find out the war had been going on a hundred years or more. That implies that they could be beaten conventionally. Slowly sure.... and maybe if certain conditions were met by whatever galactic civilzation was in charge.. But 3 itself is conflicting. We never really go toe to toe with the "classic" reaper, instead we fight and take down three destroyers. I'm not sure if that's an adequate example, though in space battles we do see at least one Reaper damaged (two "tentacles" destroyed).

I dunno, it seems there's conflicting evidence. I personally feel with a large enough fleet concentrated against a small enough Reaper force...sure....we could defeat them conventionally. What those numbers are I have no idea. Not enough evidence either way. But the Reapers are not invincible.

I kinda wonder if Shepard had been believed in the first place that the Galactic forces might've stood a much better chance at defeating them conventionally. Three years is a very long time if in the few weeks/months 3 takes place in they were able to build a device that they know nothing about.


Yes I think it could have been done.

First they would have to create redundancy of infrastructure in out of the way places not normally assoc. with Relays. Need to have a safe place to repair, resupply and rebuild as needed. 

Second they would have to economically cripple just about every government.  The military budget would have to be extreme.

Third they would need to take steps to maintain comms (set up hundreds of QEC per world). Can not afford to lose the ability to coordinate on a world wide level, not just a local one. 

Fourth they would need to train people to resist indoctrination. Can't have the government siding with the reapers, or the military planners falling under their control. 

Fifth they would need to consolidate their military forces and sacrifice worlds in order to have places where they could respond in over whelming force.  Can't afford to lose entire fleets at a time. The disaster that happened to the human fleet, the Batarians, and the Asari has to be avoided at all costs. 

(probably a couple hunder more things that need to be done).

Lastly, they would have to be prepared to fight to the death for possibly several generations.