287 réponses à ce sujet

[Troubleshooter11]

Warrior Craess wrote...

I don't recal there being many Drednaughts in the migrante fleet.  lots of Cruisers, and frigates, but they were not a significantly strong military unit.  Which would be why the single Geth Drednaught was able to do so much damage to the heavy fleet. 

True you have a good point and the cutscene actually supports your theory that the Migrant Fleet used lighter weapons. However the Migrant Fleet did upgrade many of their weapons to the degree of Dreadnaughts. Joker actually refers to this in a conversation you have with him. Calling the Quarian "Dreadnaughts" glass cannons as they had the firepower, but not the shields/armor of proper Dreadnaughts.

Regardless, the Migrant Fleet was the biggest single organic fleet in the galaxy with a combined total of 10.000 ships. Even if the fleet giving you fire support was only 500 ships with the weaponary of cruisers, there should have been a LOT more incoming fire and collateral damage when Shepard called in fire support. The cutscene showed maybe 10-15 ships firing turret mounted weapons?

Kinetic barriers actually suffer more when coming under fire from many rapid shots, so technically that should mean that a few dozen cruisers rapidly firing all their weapons upon a Reaper's ship should exhaust those shields more than a few Dreadnaughts firing every 5 seconds.

[Jenop]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

Americ4nPunk wrote...

Looking at how badly Sovereign tore the whole alliance fleet up at the end of the first. I'd say no

It didn't, actually. It took out several cruisers, but that's it. It was only faced with a dozen or so cruisers, period. And Sovereign went down pretty quickly (or at least that's how the Codex suggests it).

It's important to note that capital class Reapers are sometimes referred to as "Sovereign-class"; and the Codex confirms that it only takes 3-4 dreadnaughts to bring them down.

Lets also not forget that it wasn't just Sovereign in that fight, it was the Geth too. So it's pretty safe to assume that a little over half of the total losses were Geth related and not purely Sovereign. After all, Sovereign was pretty busy trying to activate the Citadel's Mass Relay so he didn't do a lot of fighting.

[Aesieru]

Based on Vigil edging us to build an alliance and work together, and the fact they've never had to deal with a fleet or combined force that wasn't devastated through seizing the Citadel and cutting off relay transit... I'd have to say yes.

The issue of course, is that the writers seem to have glossed over that fact.

Also, with reverse engineering the Sovereign wreck, as well as the other developments, I think we had a lot of advancements coming.

[111987]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

111987 wrote...

No way could we have won conventionally. If on average, one new Reaper Capital ship is added to their overall ranks each cycle (they lose a few, make a few so roughly it evens out; if it didn't, the Reapers would have adjusted their plans or they would slowly be dying out), and we know the Reapers are at LEAST 1 billion years old (Leviathan of Dis), that suggests there are about 20,000 Reaper Capital ships. Even if you want to divide that in half, that's 10,000 to deal with. Not to mention the thousands of Destroyers (it's stated Destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet).

The Turians and Geth have about 80 dreadnaughts total, the Asari 20, the Salarians 16, the Humans 8. This is also at the start of the war; we know each of the races has lost dreadnaughts. So even though on average you need 3-4 dreadnaughts to take down one Reaper Capital ship, the Reapers FAR outnumber the Citadel races dreadnaughts (which are the only real threats to Reaper Capital ships).

That's assuming that they don't take casualties each cycle. We know this isn't at all the case. Given that it's almost guaranteed that the Reapers lose at least a dozen destroyers and a single capital ship per cycle, the Reapers don't have anywhere near that number of ships. The cutscenes of the game completley support this: the Battle of Earth only shows a several dozen of them (capital class Reapers) at most.

That, and the Reapers have already taken heavy casualties even before the final battle. Look up the Miracle at Palaven in the codex.

I accounted for casualties, and remember in most cycles, they have every conceivable advantage. Assuming they lose a Capital ship each cycle, they can still make 2 more. They wouldn't be engaging in a cycle where their numbers slowly dwindle...

Remember the Reapers are spread throughout the galaxy. So yeah there might have been only a few hundred Capital ships on Earth, but there are thousands elsewhere. Think about it; in the intro we see at least 6 Reapers in a single city, within the range of only a few miles. Assuming there are around that many Reapers landing in each major capitals, there are hundred of Capital ships on Earth alone. They all wouldn't have come up to fight the fleet; it'd be incredibly risky to pull all your forces.

The Citadel fleets have also taken ENORMOUS casualties before the Battle for Earth. The Citadel races are nowhere near full strength.

[111987]

ronnok wrote...

111987 wrote...

No way could we have won conventionally. If on average, one new Reaper Capital ship is added to their overall ranks each cycle (they lose a few, make a few so roughly it evens out; if it didn't, the Reapers would have adjusted their plans or they would slowly be dying out), and we know the Reapers are at LEAST 1 billion years old (Leviathan of Dis), that suggests there are about 20,000 Reaper Capital ships. Even if you want to divide that in half, that's 10,000 to deal with. Not to mention the thousands of Destroyers (it's stated Destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet).

The Turians and Geth have about 80 dreadnaughts total, the Asari 20, the Salarians 16, the Humans 8. This is also at the start of the war; we know each of the races has lost dreadnaughts. So even though on average you need 3-4 dreadnaughts to take down one Reaper Capital ship, the Reapers FAR outnumber the Citadel races dreadnaughts (which are the only real threats to Reaper Capital ships).

if that were true i think the cycle would be complete alot faster....

The galaxy is a big place, my friend.

[Clayless]

All of this is lying on the assumption that the Reapers wont make their own plans.

Simply flanking the forces, messing them up, and jumping back into FTL travel is the way to go. They could also group together, something the galaxies forces couldn't combat, and start wiping out planets in an attemtpt to draw the organics to them. Then just camp the Relays and obliterate anything that comes through.

And even better, brainwash people into fighting for you. Get moles on their ships to slit the throats of their friends when they sleep.

[GnusmasTHX]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Corvus74 wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...

The vast majority of Reaper ships, according to the Codex, are in fact destroyers.  The Codex also states said destroyers can be taken out by single cruisers or even fighters if they get the jump on them.

That... doesn't help anyone's case for pro-conventional means.

The Reapers already outnumber the Allies dreadnought to dreadnought, now you're saying that the Reapers dreadnought numbers don't even account for the majority of their forces?

The Reaper capital ships can be taken down by 3-4 dreadnaughts. At this point, it's likely that the Reaper capital ships don't significantly outnumber the Allied Fleet's dreadnaughts (if at all; cutscenes and Codex entries show suprisingly few of them).

There are at least 70 Reaper dreadnoughts in the final cutscene, and that isn't even their full number, if you're to believe the Reaper occupied galaxy map at the end. Just pointing out that they have far more than 70, but by that they'd need at least 280 Dreadnoughts of their own, just to match firepower. Never mind manueverability and the fact that the Reapers can take out two at once. (Remeber that the 4 - 1 figure isn't a battle, it is simply in the context that 4 Dreadnoughts with SUSTAINED fire power is enough to overload a Reapers shields and kill it. It doesn't address the fact that in the meantime, the Reaper could've just killed them.)

In comparison, the Allies are likely to only have less than 20 more what is outlined by the Treaty of Farixen, and they have already sustained heavy casualities by the final battle. I wouldn't give the Allies more than 140 even with the geth.

Fighter fire is ineffective versus even Destroyers, as we learn from Tuchanka. You need upwards of three dozen to even annoy it. That "eye" weakness is pretty bogus, in and of itself. In all cases in ME3, never has a Reaper ever needed to open its eye to defeat you, it does for gameplay purposes only.

The Alliance is the only military to field carriers, and we don't know how many they have left or the capacity for each of them. There's no way to tell which fighter force has superiority over the other. As for GARDIAN defenses, you never see the Allies use them either.

If the final cutscene took place as per the Codex, the allies, no matter your EMS, would have lost. The Reaper ships greatly out manuever the Allied ships, and once that opening volley was spent and the Reapers close the distance, it would impossible for the Allies to keep up. See that one Destroyer that mounts the turian cruiser? Imagine that x100, at least, for the Destroyers. Then take into account that the actual Reaper dreadnoughts never even have to BE stationary for capital ships to fire upon them and you have a slaughter.

The Miracle at Palaven is completely irrelevant. Read it. Suicide bombers capitalizing on the Reapers ALLOWING them entry. That's not what's happening at Earth.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 25 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Should also point out that, even without this theory-crafting, a high-EMS SWORD Fleet doesn't win.

If you consider the purpose of the fleet is to protect the Crucible, and that Harbinger has the freedom to detach himself from his own forces (along with some other Reapers) just to annihilate Hammer, it's obvious that he isn't feeling the heat up there. Considering the fact that Reapers can destroy the Crucible, and that they're right outside the window when you're up there, it's obvious that the SWORD fleet fails to maintain space superiority, regardless of your EMS.

And again, it's unlikely that those are the bulk of the Reaper forces, and they are yours.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 25 mars 2012 - 03:39 .

[Five1thOUsanD]

Keep in mind that if you get for EMS/ Readiness high enough that it says "Allied forces are winning in key locations."
Also I seem to recall that most of the Reapers in the galaxy were gathered at Earth for that battle in order to protect the Citadel.

[Warrior Craess]

111987 wrote...

No way could we have won conventionally. If on average, one new Reaper Capital ship is added to their overall ranks each cycle (they lose a few, make a few so roughly it evens out; if it didn't, the Reapers would have adjusted their plans or they would slowly be dying out), and we know the Reapers are at LEAST 1 billion years old (Leviathan of Dis), that suggests there are about 20,000 Reaper Capital ships. Even if you want to divide that in half, that's 10,000 to deal with. Not to mention the thousands of Destroyers (it's stated Destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet).

The Turians and Geth have about 80 dreadnaughts total, the Asari 20, the Salarians 16, the Humans 8. This is also at the start of the war; we know each of the races has lost dreadnaughts. So even though on average you need 3-4 dreadnaughts to take down one Reaper Capital ship, the Reapers FAR outnumber the Citadel races dreadnaughts (which are the only real threats to Reaper Capital ships).

Per the Codex

The Treaty of Farixen stipulates the amount of
dreadnoughts a navy may own, with the turian peacekeeping fleet being allowed
the most. As of 2183, the turians had 37 dreadnoughts, the asari had 21, the
salarians had 16, and the Alliance had 6 with another under construction. As of
2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human.
By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a
single dreadnought of their own.

[Elyiia]

Warrior Craess wrote...

111987 wrote...

No way could we have won conventionally. If on average, one new Reaper Capital ship is added to their overall ranks each cycle (they lose a few, make a few so roughly it evens out; if it didn't, the Reapers would have adjusted their plans or they would slowly be dying out), and we know the Reapers are at LEAST 1 billion years old (Leviathan of Dis), that suggests there are about 20,000 Reaper Capital ships. Even if you want to divide that in half, that's 10,000 to deal with. Not to mention the thousands of Destroyers (it's stated Destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet).

The Turians and Geth have about 80 dreadnaughts total, the Asari 20, the Salarians 16, the Humans 8. This is also at the start of the war; we know each of the races has lost dreadnaughts. So even though on average you need 3-4 dreadnaughts to take down one Reaper Capital ship, the Reapers FAR outnumber the Citadel races dreadnaughts (which are the only real threats to Reaper Capital ships).

Per the Codex

The Treaty of Farixen stipulates the amount of
dreadnoughts a navy may own, with the turian peacekeeping fleet being allowed
the most. As of 2183, the turians had 37 dreadnoughts, the asari had 21, the
salarians had 16, and the Alliance had 6 with another under construction. As of
2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human.
By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a
single dreadnought of their own.

The Geth are also estimated to have as many dreadnoughts as the Turians. Minus one cause we blew it up. So 38 approximately.

[Jenop]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Should also point out that, even without this theory-crafting, a high-EMS SWORD Fleet doesn't win.

If you consider the purpose of the fleet is to protect the Crucible, and that Harbinger has the freedom to detach himself from his own forces (along with some other Reapers) just to annihilate Hammer, it's obvious that he isn't feeling the heat up there. Considering the fact that Reapers can destroy the Crucible, and that they're right outside the window when you're up there, it's obvious that the SWORD fleet fails to maintain space superiority, regardless of your EMS.

And again, it's unlikely that those are the bulk of the Reaper forces, and they are yours.

So I ask, why didn't they destroy the Crucible to begin with? Or the fleet that was in it? Or why didn't they destroy the fleet protecting the Crucible while it was still in construction, along with the Crucible itself?

[111987]

Warrior Craess wrote...

111987 wrote...

No way could we have won conventionally. If on average, one new Reaper Capital ship is added to their overall ranks each cycle (they lose a few, make a few so roughly it evens out; if it didn't, the Reapers would have adjusted their plans or they would slowly be dying out), and we know the Reapers are at LEAST 1 billion years old (Leviathan of Dis), that suggests there are about 20,000 Reaper Capital ships. Even if you want to divide that in half, that's 10,000 to deal with. Not to mention the thousands of Destroyers (it's stated Destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet).

The Turians and Geth have about 80 dreadnaughts total, the Asari 20, the Salarians 16, the Humans 8. This is also at the start of the war; we know each of the races has lost dreadnaughts. So even though on average you need 3-4 dreadnaughts to take down one Reaper Capital ship, the Reapers FAR outnumber the Citadel races dreadnaughts (which are the only real threats to Reaper Capital ships).

Per the Codex

The Treaty of Farixen stipulates the amount of
dreadnoughts a navy may own, with the turian peacekeeping fleet being allowed
the most. As of 2183, the turians had 37 dreadnoughts, the asari had 21, the
salarians had 16, and the Alliance had 6 with another under construction. As of
2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human.
By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a
single dreadnought of their own.

Yes, that is where I got my information from...

[GnusmasTHX]

Jenop wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Should also point out that, even without this theory-crafting, a high-EMS SWORD Fleet doesn't win.

If you consider the purpose of the fleet is to protect the Crucible, and that Harbinger has the freedom to detach himself from his own forces (along with some other Reapers) just to annihilate Hammer, it's obvious that he isn't feeling the heat up there. Considering the fact that Reapers can destroy the Crucible, and that they're right outside the window when you're up there, it's obvious that the SWORD fleet fails to maintain space superiority, regardless of your EMS.

And again, it's unlikely that those are the bulk of the Reaper forces, and they are yours.

So I ask, why didn't they destroy the Crucible to begin with? Or the fleet that was in it? Or why didn't they destroy the fleet protecting the Crucible while it was still in construction, along with the Crucible itself?

Because it was hidden, obviously.

[Troubleshooter11]

Dont forget that those Alliance carriers have many many fighters on board...and Thanix cannons can be fitted on fighters.

Thanix cannons give zero fracks about shields....*cackles madly*


...yeah i want a big honking spacegun to blast reapers.

[Jenop]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Jenop wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Should also point out that, even without this theory-crafting, a high-EMS SWORD Fleet doesn't win.

If you consider the purpose of the fleet is to protect the Crucible, and that Harbinger has the freedom to detach himself from his own forces (along with some other Reapers) just to annihilate Hammer, it's obvious that he isn't feeling the heat up there. Considering the fact that Reapers can destroy the Crucible, and that they're right outside the window when you're up there, it's obvious that the SWORD fleet fails to maintain space superiority, regardless of your EMS.

And again, it's unlikely that those are the bulk of the Reaper forces, and they are yours.

So I ask, why didn't they destroy the Crucible to begin with? Or the fleet that was in it? Or why didn't they destroy the fleet protecting the Crucible while it was still in construction, along with the Crucible itself?

Because it was hidden, obviously.

While it was being constructed, sure. But the moment it shows up on the battlefield, it's left untouched, along with the attacking fleet. The Crucible remained attatched to the Citadel for how long? Then there's also the time it took to actually set up, plenty of time for the superior forces of the Reapers to attack and destroy it, yet they left it untouched.

[ronnok]

111987 wrote...

ronnok wrote...

111987 wrote...

No way could we have won conventionally. If on average, one new Reaper Capital ship is added to their overall ranks each cycle (they lose a few, make a few so roughly it evens out; if it didn't, the Reapers would have adjusted their plans or they would slowly be dying out), and we know the Reapers are at LEAST 1 billion years old (Leviathan of Dis), that suggests there are about 20,000 Reaper Capital ships. Even if you want to divide that in half, that's 10,000 to deal with. Not to mention the thousands of Destroyers (it's stated Destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet).

The Turians and Geth have about 80 dreadnaughts total, the Asari 20, the Salarians 16, the Humans 8. This is also at the start of the war; we know each of the races has lost dreadnaughts. So even though on average you need 3-4 dreadnaughts to take down one Reaper Capital ship, the Reapers FAR outnumber the Citadel races dreadnaughts (which are the only real threats to Reaper Capital ships).

if that were true i think the cycle would be complete alot faster....

The galaxy is a big place, my friend.

How the hell could the turians have any resistance at all if there were thousands of reaper capital ships attacking palaven alone. their fleet would not have just been pushed back and suffered heavy losses, they would have been obliterated almost immediately. no resistance they would be just gone. and what exactly in the game provides you with evidence of 10,000 reaper capital ships anyway?

[GnusmasTHX]

Thanix Cannon on fighters is basically what the Occulus are.

[111987]

ronnok wrote...

111987 wrote...

ronnok wrote...

111987 wrote...

No way could we have won conventionally. If on average, one new Reaper Capital ship is added to their overall ranks each cycle (they lose a few, make a few so roughly it evens out; if it didn't, the Reapers would have adjusted their plans or they would slowly be dying out), and we know the Reapers are at LEAST 1 billion years old (Leviathan of Dis), that suggests there are about 20,000 Reaper Capital ships. Even if you want to divide that in half, that's 10,000 to deal with. Not to mention the thousands of Destroyers (it's stated Destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet).

The Turians and Geth have about 80 dreadnaughts total, the Asari 20, the Salarians 16, the Humans 8. This is also at the start of the war; we know each of the races has lost dreadnaughts. So even though on average you need 3-4 dreadnaughts to take down one Reaper Capital ship, the Reapers FAR outnumber the Citadel races dreadnaughts (which are the only real threats to Reaper Capital ships).

if that were true i think the cycle would be complete alot faster....

The galaxy is a big place, my friend.

How the hell could the turians have any resistance at all if there were thousands of reaper capital ships attacking palaven alone. their fleet would not have just been pushed back and suffered heavy losses, they would have been obliterated almost immediately. no resistance they would be just gone. and what exactly in the game provides you with evidence of 10,000 reaper capital ships anyway?

The Reaper forces were obviously spread out.

Read my post closely.

[alaska-the-1st]

Volus Dreadnought Kwunu
 The volus have only produced one dreadnought, the Kwunu, named after the diplomat who negotiated their client-race status with the turians. The Kwunu is the only volus ship of its class, but it is remarkably well-armed. It's broadside cannons and main gun are all Thanix Magnetic-Hydrodynamic Weapons. A turian general touring the Kwunu after its maiden system-voyage enthusiastically declared that the ship could "char a planet three times over". While its construction was funded entirely by the Elkoss Combine corporation, the dreadnought was jointly gifted to the Vol Protectorate and Turian Hierarchy upon completion.

Damn, The Volus know how to make a dreadnought:blink:

[GnusmasTHX]

Jenop wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Jenop wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Should also point out that, even without this theory-crafting, a high-EMS SWORD Fleet doesn't win.

If you consider the purpose of the fleet is to protect the Crucible, and that Harbinger has the freedom to detach himself from his own forces (along with some other Reapers) just to annihilate Hammer, it's obvious that he isn't feeling the heat up there. Considering the fact that Reapers can destroy the Crucible, and that they're right outside the window when you're up there, it's obvious that the SWORD fleet fails to maintain space superiority, regardless of your EMS.

And again, it's unlikely that those are the bulk of the Reaper forces, and they are yours.

So I ask, why didn't they destroy the Crucible to begin with? Or the fleet that was in it? Or why didn't they destroy the fleet protecting the Crucible while it was still in construction, along with the Crucible itself?

Because it was hidden, obviously.

While it was being constructed, sure. But the moment it shows up on the battlefield, it's left untouched, along with the attacking fleet. The Crucible remained attatched to the Citadel for how long? Then there's also the time it took to actually set up, plenty of time for the superior forces of the Reapers to attack and destroy it, yet they left it untouched.

Because of plot, and for whatever reason, the Reapers didn't care enough.

Even then, the Crucible can be destroyed if you wait long enough.

[Jenop]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Jenop wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Jenop wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Should also point out that, even without this theory-crafting, a high-EMS SWORD Fleet doesn't win.

If you consider the purpose of the fleet is to protect the Crucible, and that Harbinger has the freedom to detach himself from his own forces (along with some other Reapers) just to annihilate Hammer, it's obvious that he isn't feeling the heat up there. Considering the fact that Reapers can destroy the Crucible, and that they're right outside the window when you're up there, it's obvious that the SWORD fleet fails to maintain space superiority, regardless of your EMS.

And again, it's unlikely that those are the bulk of the Reaper forces, and they are yours.

So I ask, why didn't they destroy the Crucible to begin with? Or the fleet that was in it? Or why didn't they destroy the fleet protecting the Crucible while it was still in construction, along with the Crucible itself?

Because it was hidden, obviously.

While it was being constructed, sure. But the moment it shows up on the battlefield, it's left untouched, along with the attacking fleet. The Crucible remained attatched to the Citadel for how long? Then there's also the time it took to actually set up, plenty of time for the superior forces of the Reapers to attack and destroy it, yet they left it untouched.

Because of plot, and for whatever reason, the Reapers didn't care enough.

Even then, the Crucible can be destroyed if you wait long enough.

But they knew it was an anti Reaper WMD, since it's been around for as long as it has. The Prothean VI on Thessia says that it wasn't Prothean design, but had been around since the first cycle, and each cycle since then had added their own twist on it. So the Reapers knew what it was, yet they did nothing to stop it.

Ok, honestly, we should stop arguing this point ... it's a plot hole, we're going nowhere fast. Agree to Disagree?

[Warrior Craess]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Corvus74 wrote...

Arl Raylen wrote...

I think the main reason it couldn't be done conventionally is the plain fact that Reaper Dreadnoughts outnumber Organic Dreadnoughts by at least 1000:1. There are only like 40 left total by the final battle, right? The Reapers have more than that just patrolling random sectors of space...

The vast majority of Reaper ships, according to the Codex, are in fact destroyers.  The Codex also states said destroyers can be taken out by single cruisers or even fighters if they get the jump on them.

That... doesn't help anyone's case for pro-conventional means.

The Reapers already outnumber the Allies dreadnought to dreadnought, now you're saying that the Reapers dreadnought numbers don't even account for the majority of their forces?

The Reaper capital ships can be taken down by 3-4 dreadnaughts. At this point, it's likely that the Reaper capital ships don't significantly outnumber the Allied Fleet's dreadnaughts (if at all; cutscenes and Codex entries show suprisingly few of them).

There are at least 70 Reaper dreadnoughts in the final cutscene, and that isn't even their full number, if you're to believe the Reaper occupied galaxy map at the end. Just pointing out that they have far more than 70, but by that they'd need at least 280 Dreadnoughts of their own, just to match firepower. Never mind manueverability and the fact that the Reapers can take out two at once. (Remeber that the 4 - 1 figure isn't a battle, it is simply in the context that 4 Dreadnoughts with SUSTAINED fire power is enough to overload a Reapers shields and kill it. It doesn't address the fact that in the meantime, the Reaper could've just killed them.)

In comparison, the Allies are likely to only have less than 20 more what is outlined by the Treaty of Farixen, and they have already sustained heavy casualities by the final battle. I wouldn't give the Allies more than 140 even with the geth.

Fighter fire is ineffective versus even Destroyers, as we learn from Tuchanka. You need upwards of three dozen to even annoy it. That "eye" weakness is pretty bogus, in and of itself. In all cases in ME3, never has a Reaper ever needed to open its eye to defeat you, it does for gameplay purposes only.

The Alliance is the only military to field carriers, and we don't know how many they have left or the capacity for each of them. There's no way to tell which fighter force has superiority over the other. As for GARDIAN defenses, you never see the Allies use them either.

If the final cutscene took place as per the Codex, the allies, no matter your EMS, would have lost. The Reaper ships greatly out manuever the Allied ships, and once that opening volley was spent and the Reapers close the distance, it would impossible for the Allies to keep up. See that one Destroyer that mounts the turian cruiser? Imagine that x100, at least, for the Destroyers. Then take into account that the actual Reaper dreadnoughts never even have to BE stationary for capital ships to fire upon them and you have a slaughter.

The Miracle at Palaven is completely irrelevant. Read it. Suicide bombers capitalizing on the Reapers ALLOWING them entry. That's not what's happening at Earth.

Umm the Taurians have carriers as well.  it's the reason they didn't have a strong pressence at the Relay, they used Carriers to gain intel.  And according to the codex, there are 85 Dreadnaughts in existance in 2186.   Most of those are probably still in play.  While I agree that we couldn't win a conventional war, it's not becuase the military isn't capable of devizing tactics that could beat the reapers.  We can no longer win becuase we've lost the ability to repair, resupply and rebuild, and the ability to communicate and coordinate effectively outside of the local area. 

[GnusmasTHX]

Jenop wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Jenop wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Jenop wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Should also point out that, even without this theory-crafting, a high-EMS SWORD Fleet doesn't win.

If you consider the purpose of the fleet is to protect the Crucible, and that Harbinger has the freedom to detach himself from his own forces (along with some other Reapers) just to annihilate Hammer, it's obvious that he isn't feeling the heat up there. Considering the fact that Reapers can destroy the Crucible, and that they're right outside the window when you're up there, it's obvious that the SWORD fleet fails to maintain space superiority, regardless of your EMS.

And again, it's unlikely that those are the bulk of the Reaper forces, and they are yours.

So I ask, why didn't they destroy the Crucible to begin with? Or the fleet that was in it? Or why didn't they destroy the fleet protecting the Crucible while it was still in construction, along with the Crucible itself?

Because it was hidden, obviously.

While it was being constructed, sure. But the moment it shows up on the battlefield, it's left untouched, along with the attacking fleet. The Crucible remained attatched to the Citadel for how long? Then there's also the time it took to actually set up, plenty of time for the superior forces of the Reapers to attack and destroy it, yet they left it untouched.

Because of plot, and for whatever reason, the Reapers didn't care enough.

Even then, the Crucible can be destroyed if you wait long enough.

But they knew it was an anti Reaper WMD, since it's been around for as long as it has. The Prothean VI on Thessia says that it wasn't Prothean design, but had been around since the first cycle, and each cycle since then had added their own twist on it. So the Reapers knew what it was, yet they did nothing to stop it.

Ok, honestly, we should stop arguing this point ... it's a plot hole, we're going nowhere fast. Agree to Disagree?

I don't get you.

All I said was the inability of the Sword fleet to protect the Crucible completely and Harbinger's and his retinues ability to leave the battle was indicative of the fact that they were winning the space battle.

If there was an argument, it wasn't with me.

[Corvus74]

Americ4nPunk wrote...

Looking at how badly Sovereign tore the whole alliance fleet up at the end of the first. I'd say no

Sovereign had a Geth fleet with it vastly larger than the totally surprised fleet defending the Citadel - and still lost.