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Debunking Indoctrination Theory - The Scene on the Citadel


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#1
Admiral H. Cain

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EDIT: More added to the end.

It would be unfair to BioWare if I didn't start by once again stating that Mass Effect 3 is one hell of a ride. In fact, excluding the final five minutes, this game is easily in my top five all-time favorite games. The scene featuring Mordin on Tuchanka was pure brilliance. "I MADE A MISTAKE!"

Anyways, let's get started...

I've had a change of heart in regards to the "Indoctrination Theory;" basically, I think it's B.S. I also think it would be a huge mistake for BioWare to write a new ending based on it. I admit the circumstances surrounding the final minutes of the game are filled with inconsistencies and plot holes, and it's undoubtedly strange and ridiculous, but this theory is really just wishful thinking on the part of those who, like me, dislike the ending.

Let's talk about the meeting between Shepard, Anderson and the Illusive Man on the Citadel. This is the most heavily discussed and supposedly features the best and the most "evidence" for Indoctrination Theory. Taken out of context, there actually is a lot of evidence supporting indoctrination during this scene; the problem is that the wrong dots were connected, leading to the wrong conclusion. (According to Indoctrination Theory, the Reapers are controlling Shepard alone, and this scene is only taking place in his mind). This is what actually happened:

TIM is (somewhat successfully) attempting to indoctrinate and control Shepard and Anderson using his new implants.

How do I come to this conclusion?

[First, you need to understand why this "final confrontation" between Shepard, Anderson and TIM even takes place. In my opinion, this scene takes place to put faces on the options you are given by the Catalyst in the following scene. It's a kind of precursor.

The Illusive Man embodies the "control" option. This is self-evident. When the Catalyst explains the control option, the Illusive Man is shown using it during a cutscene.

Anderson embodies the "destroy" option. This is also self-evident. Similar to the above, Anderson is shown shooting the power conduit (the destroy option) in a cutscene.

Shepard, then, embodies the "synthesis" option, albeit somewhat poorly. This is definitely not self-evident beyond the blatantly obvious fact that Shepard is already part organic and part synthetic. However, the fact that he is part organic and part synthetic is only a very small piece of the philosophical puzzle BioWare wanted us to "solve." (I would explain further, but after writing two and a half paragraphs, I realized it could take me a very long time to complete my thoughts on the matter, and it would take us further off topic than we already are)].


Back on topic:

Observational Evidence: Observe the manner in which Anderson moves; his actions resemble that of a marionette. (A marionette is a puppet controlled by strings from above). Observe the "black tentacles" surrounding the edges of the screen, and Shepard keeling over in obvious mental pain; TIM is attempting to indoctrinate and control Shepard and Anderson, and he is somewhat successful. (Easy example: he forces Shepard to shoot Anderson). We know from past experience, however, that Shepard is extremely strong willed, and in the end, his will proves too strong for TIM to fully control. [Note: TIM is [/i]indoctrinated by the Reapers].

Material Evidence: We learned during the Sanctuary mission that Miranda's father had discovered how Reaper indoctrination works. We also discover that Kai Leng escaped Sanctuary with all the research data and brought it back to the Illusive Man. During the assault on the Cerberus' HQ, we discover in the last surveillance video that the Illusive Man is getting new implants. It wasn't hard to conclude that these new implants were designed to give the user the ability to indoctrinate and/or control as Reapers do.

Finally, I realize how strange the circumstances leading up this scene are, specifically in regards to how both TIM and Anderson manage to even get to the "control room." First, TIM seemingly appears from nowhere. Second, there is only a single way into the control room, yet somehow Anderson gets to the room first even though he claims to have got onto the Citadel after Shepard. He also describes the exact path Shepard takes.

Anyways, I just wanted to share some of my thoughts on the matter. If you have any other questions, please throw them my way!

Refined: There's a fatal flaw in the "Shepard is having a hallucination" argument.

Full blown schizophrenic hallucinations are exceedingly rare among those who a) have no past history of schizoprhenic hallucinations, or B) have no mental defect or disorder (liek schizoprhenia) which cause hallucinations. (Or the use of hallucinogenic drugs for that matter). You can't assume that Shepard is having a full blown schizoprhenic hallucination because he has no past history of schizophrenic hallucinations; it's a straw man argument.

More information from Thomas Andresen:

Thomas Andresen wrote...

In Geoff Keighley's "The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3", Mac Walters expounds on how the end of ME3 was designed to foster speculation. They wanted the ending to raise questions, rather than provide answers, which is, believe it or not, a method used to great success by many many writers before. Going by that, any theory that may or may not pop up on these forums may or may not be true. This is reinforced by Casey Hudson's statement that he does not wish to make a "post-Shepard" Mass Effect game. Other games in the universe is definitely a possibility, but none that takes place after the events in the trilogy.

As for the scene on the Citadel.
Anderson comments while Shepard is making walking in the corpse-littered hallway how he seemed to have come out somewhere else than Shepard, and how the place seems to be shifting; possibly explaining how he got to the console before Shepard, and how Shepard only sees that one path.

When talking to the Prothean VI in the Illusive Man's control room, the VI says that the Illusive Man already had gone to the Citadel, and considering that he had already been indoctrinated, obviously the Reapers wouldn't stop him.

Admiral Hackett tries to contact Shepard after the encounter with the Illusive Man and Anderson's death. The obvious conclusion is that when he sees the citadel opening, he makes a leap of faith, which he sees as the only choice besides letting the Reapers win. To make that leap of faith, he has has to assume that Shepard miraculously survived, and made it onto the Citadel.

 

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 25 mars 2012 - 01:07 .


#2
Admiral H. Cain

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Format fixed.

#3
DrFrankenseuss

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I agree with you. Also, TIM is a huge proponent of biotics being the future of mankind. Any thoughts about how his hand glows purple, as if he is also a biotic?

#4
KevShep

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watch this!


#5
Tiax Rules All

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I disagree, IDT should be DLC

#6
AntenDS

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I don't know why people don't believe that TIM would be on the Citadel. When you stormed the base he wasn't there and he had already alerted the Reapers of your plan so he could have easily slipped on the Citadel before the Reapers brought it over to the Sol System. There is completely no way to dismiss that TIM couldn't have been hiding on the Citadel waiting for you since he knew you would eventually get there.

#7
froggeh2

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I missed the part where you debunked the theory?

#8
alx119

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Why is people trying to make others unhappy so badly?

Leave the theories running, it keeps the hopes up for christ sake. If it makes people happy to think that way and not plainly that the endings sucked, **** why not let them!?

I personally don't believe in anything, but should I go around trying to pop the parties of other people? Well I don't see the positive part of that. It's not like they are being "ignorant" or anything, they are just keeping their hopes. And losing hope is one of the saddest things in life.

#9
Admiral H. Cain

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DrFrankenseuss wrote...

I agree with you. Also, TIM is a huge proponent of biotics being the future of mankind. Any thoughts about how his hand glows purple, as if he is also a biotic?


Thanks for the reply. 

I don't like to speculate, but here goes: 

My best guess is that TIM's scientists developed some sort of advanced biotic implants which cause "purple" biotics rather than the traditional "blue." I'd imagine that TIM has all of the most advanced implants Cerberus' has designed. It's in his nature. 

#10
Admiral H. Cain

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alx119 wrote...

Why is people trying to make others unhappy so badly?

Leave the theories running, it keeps the hopes up for christ sake. If it makes people happy to think that way and not plainly that the endings sucked, **** why not let them!?

I personally don't believe in anything, but should I go around trying to pop the parties of other people? Well I don't see the positive part of that. It's not like they are being "ignorant" or anything, they are just keeping their hopes. And losing hope is one of the saddest things in life.


It's a video game... 

#11
Admiral H. Cain

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AntenDS wrote...

I don't know why people don't believe that TIM would be on the Citadel. When you stormed the base he wasn't there and he had already alerted the Reapers of your plan so he could have easily slipped on the Citadel before the Reapers brought it over to the Sol System. There is completely no way to dismiss that TIM couldn't have been hiding on the Citadel waiting for you since he knew you would eventually get there.


Very true.

I knew that he was supposed to be on the Citadel, but the manner in which he appears is downright suspicious.

#12
Ziggeh

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Admiral H. Cain wrote...

TIM is (somewhat successfully) attempting to indoctrinate and control Shepard and Anderson using his new implants.

How do I come to this conclusion?

By....watching it?

#13
alx119

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Admiral H. Cain wrote...

alx119 wrote...

Why is people trying to make others unhappy so badly?

Leave the theories running, it keeps the hopes up for christ sake. If it makes people happy to think that way and not plainly that the endings sucked, **** why not let them!?

I personally don't believe in anything, but should I go around trying to pop the parties of other people? Well I don't see the positive part of that. It's not like they are being "ignorant" or anything, they are just keeping their hopes. And losing hope is one of the saddest things in life.


It's a video game... 

So? People is truly unhappy with what they were delievered in that videogame, videogames are supposed to make people happy, satisfied, content. If it didn't there's no other way around it. Making theories about it is an optimistic outlook of it. I myself like to contemplate the idea, because anything is better than what we got. 

#14
JEPrDEE

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Still a fan of indoc but good read netherless, always like new interps. Also i think the synthesis idea came around from saren's indoctrination in me1 though.
So it was like sarens indoc idea vs illusive mans indoc idead vs shepards/anderson idea in a nutshell

#15
Admiral H. Cain

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KevShep wrote...

watch this!



I've the seen the new one multiple times, and it uses multiple (poor) straw man arguments in an attempt to make it's case. It's very similar to the Loose Change 9/11 video in that regard... You can make gullible people believe almost anything you want with a straw man argument.

#16
Doppelgaenger

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froggeh2 wrote...

I missed the part where you debunked the theory?


Because it can't be debunked. Neither can it be proven.

Because the indoc. people say: what you see is an illusion. So they can twist it however they want to fit ANYTHING  because anything we see could be part of indoc. The other side argues it can't be a illusion based on the eyewittness account of the person that is supposedly indoctrinated/hallucinating.

You are all wasting time here.

#17
BlackAlpha

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froggeh2 wrote...

I missed the part where you debunked the theory?


I think the OP means that TIM can indoctrinate thanks to the implants. So the OP proves this part wrong of the IT. Then you can ask yourself, if the IT had this part wrong, how many more mistakes are there? Then the question changes to, how many mistakes will you accept before you stop believing?

Modifié par BlackAlpha, 25 mars 2012 - 12:05 .


#18
Sweawm

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The biggest plot hole is why the Conduit transport them straight to some control room in the Citadel Tower. If the Reapers really have planted the Conduit on Earth for the purpose of harvesting, then why does it only transport to a small corridor that's only path goes straight to a control room where: I don't know? The BIG BUTTON that opens the Citadel is located.

#19
DrFrankenseuss

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AntenDS wrote...

I don't know why people don't believe that TIM would be on the Citadel. When you stormed the base he wasn't there and he had already alerted the Reapers of your plan so he could have easily slipped on the Citadel before the Reapers brought it over to the Sol System. There is completely no way to dismiss that TIM couldn't have been hiding on the Citadel waiting for you since he knew you would eventually get there.


You don't think when TIM says "There's only one way to use the Crucible effectively. I've dedicated my life to understanding the reapers, and I know with CERTAINTY the Crucible will allow me to control them." that it might be a hint for why he would want to be there on the Citadel when the Crucible docked?

#20
KevShep

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Admiral H. Cain wrote...

KevShep wrote...

watch this!



You can make gullible people believe almost anything you want with a straw man argument.


Oh you mean like the ending we got?

#21
effortname

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This thread has been done to death and you should feel bad for posting it.

#22
Admiral H. Cain

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alx119 wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

alx119 wrote...

Why is people trying to make others unhappy so badly?

Leave the theories running, it keeps the hopes up for christ sake. If it makes people happy to think that way and not plainly that the endings sucked, **** why not let them!?

I personally don't believe in anything, but should I go around trying to pop the parties of other people? Well I don't see the positive part of that. It's not like they are being "ignorant" or anything, they are just keeping their hopes. And losing hope is one of the saddest things in life.


It's a video game... 

So? People is truly unhappy with what they were delievered in that videogame, videogames are supposed to make people happy, satisfied, content. If it didn't there's no other way around it. Making theories about it is an optimistic outlook of it. I myself like to contemplate the idea, because anything is better than what we got. 


Since when is it the job of the video game to make you happy, satisfied or content? I can agree that satisfaction should be a key requirement in producing any work of art, but why does it need to make you happy?

Example: The best music can make you feel happy then sad then both at the same time. The best films can leave you utter flabbergasted and disgusted at the same time. (See: Se7en and The Departed). They can also make you very happy. (See: The Dark Knight or Toy Story 3). They can also leave you very sad. (See: Saving Private Ryan, The Green Mile). The same also hold true for literature...

#23
Admiral H. Cain

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BlackAlpha wrote...

froggeh2 wrote...

I missed the part where you debunked the theory?


I think the OP means that TIM can indoctrinate thanks to the implants. So the OP proves this part wrong of the IT. Then you can ask yourself, if the IT had this part wrong, how many more mistakes are there? Then the question changes to, how many mistakes will you accept before you stop believing?


Exactly.

#24
Admiral H. Cain

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KevShep wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

KevShep wrote...

watch this!



You can make gullible people believe almost anything you want with a straw man argument.


Oh you mean like the ending we got?


I didn't say I liked the ending. In actuality, the ending sucked. I'm simply debunking Indoc. Theory.

#25
Doppelgaenger

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BlackAlpha wrote...

froggeh2 wrote...

I missed the part where you debunked the theory?


I think the OP means that TIM can indoctrinate thanks to the implants. So the OP proves this part wrong of the IT. Then you can ask yourself, if the IT had this part wrong, how many more mistakes are there? Then the question changes to, how many mistakes will you accept before you stop believing?


Once again: it can not be disproven because it is logically imposible. It is impossible to be the person that is presumably hallucinating and finding evidence inside that possible hallucination that proves that you are not hallucinating.

Modifié par Doppelgaenger, 25 mars 2012 - 12:11 .