228 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Explain the boy then.

Why does the catalyst look like that if he is not in his mind?

Really, you want me to explain the catalyst? This part of the game made no sense whatsoever, and you want me to explain it? 

Come on...

no the BOY, not boy-binger

the boy in the 2-3 nightmares, the boy who dies (or doesn't cause hes a hallucination) at the begginign

not catalyst

What about him do you want me to explain?

Why...does...he...(catalyst)...look...like the boy from his dreams?

[Admiral H. Cain]

hakwea wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

EDIT: There's a fatal flaw in the "Shepard is having a hallucination" argument.

Hallucinations are exceedingly rare among those who a) have no past history of hallucinations, or have no mental defect or disorder which causes hallucinations. (Or the use of hallucinogenic drugs for that matter). You can't assume that Shepard is having a hallucination because he has no past history of hallucinations; it's a straw man argument.

Except Shepard has been having hallucinations or hallucination-like dreams through out the entire game. He kept seeing the kid in a forest with red lights and reaper noises. All the while hearing voices and seeing black shadows. Some of those voices even tried to talk to shepard.

While the indoctrination theory might have some flaws or might not be accurate, I think it has some merit. However I'd go one step further and say that the indoctrination of Shepard by the Illusive Man started during Mass Effect 2. When shepard was brought back from the "dead" and rebuilt with a synthetic framework. That set the ground work for the indoctrination but shepard proved "beyond" control and still his own self.

I believe the Illusive man could already have been partly under the control of reapers but they gave him leeway as they were using both him and shepard to ultimately reach their goals. Then in ME3 shepard see's a kid on earth that he can't save and see's killed. Then further shows up in his dreams and when he finally does catch him he burns.

Gawd, I love pseudo-psychology...

You said the following, "Except Shepard has been having hallucinations or hallucination-like dreams through out the entire game." 

Look up "lucid dreaming." 

[Ziggeh]

BlackAlpha wrote...

I do not agree with your logic.

Descartes frowns at you.

[Hanabii]

Also, since you won't pick apart the Indoctrination Theory. Let me say something to you.

"Don't try and disprove something if you aren't willing to put the work forward to disprove it." No one respects someone who says 'You thought on the matter is Bullcrap but I'm not even gonna try and disprove it because it's a strawman argument."

Here however is me debunking you.

THE ENTIRE end is Symbolic, Anderson Represents this, Saren/Shepard Represent THAT, Illusive man Symbolizes this! Reality doesn't turn people into out of place symbols who couldn't have gotten there.

The Problem with your argument is that it doesn't Debunk, disprove or address ANYTHING about the Indoctrination theory DESPITE the fact you call your thread Debunking it.

I don't think it's funny, nor do I find it amusing.

It's that mindset that bred the ignorance that created the dark ages.
"I'm right, you're wrong, and I'm not gonna bother showing you 'how' you're wrong because your point is too stupid to bother."

[Ariq]

Just to clarify: you're argument in 'debunking' Indoctrination Theory is to point out evidence that Shepard was being subjected to attempted Indoctrination?

As for the so-called fatal flaw / strawman nature of the hallucination argument, you'll really have to explain what you're struggling to say with that part of your post. Cause I don't get it.

[Admiral H. Cain]

KevShep wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Explain the boy then.

Why does the catalyst look like that if he is not in his mind?

Really, you want me to explain the catalyst? This part of the game made no sense whatsoever, and you want me to explain it? 

Come on...

no the BOY, not boy-binger

the boy in the 2-3 nightmares, the boy who dies (or doesn't cause hes a hallucination) at the begginign

not catalyst

What about him do you want me to explain?

Why...does...he...(catalyst)...look...like the boy from his dreams?

Once again, you are asking me to explain the final scene which was found guilty of complete nonsense in the first degree.

I can speculate, however, that it is similar to the experience we had in the "Geth consensus." Legion said that he could take any form he desired in the consensus, and it's not much of a leap to assume that the Catalyst could take any form he desired.  

[Admiral H. Cain]

Ariq wrote...

Just to clarify: you're argument in 'debunking' Indoctrination Theory is to point out evidence that Shepard was being subjected to attempted Indoctrination?

As for the so-called fatal flaw / strawman nature of the hallucination argument, you'll really have to explain what you're struggling to say with that part of your post. Cause I don't get it.

Watch the scene again. Observe TIM controlling both Shepard and Anderson. It's exceedingly obvious.

[Ziggeh]

KevShep wrote...
Why...does...he...(catalyst)...look...like the boy from his dreams?

Either because he can read minds or because Shepard had to interpret the information.

[Natswit]

If the Indocrination Theory can address most of the concerns I have with the endings, with logical sense and without conflicting much with the game's lore, I'm willing to believe it.
Of course we can't prove the IT is true or false, only BioWare could do that, no matter how much evidence there is to prove/dismiss it.

[Admiral H. Cain]

Hanabii wrote...

Also, since you won't pick apart the Indoctrination Theory. Let me say something to you.

"Don't try and disprove something if you aren't willing to put the work forward to disprove it." No one respects someone who says 'You thought on the matter is Bullcrap but I'm not even gonna try and disprove it because it's a strawman argument."

Here however is me debunking you.

THE ENTIRE end is Symbolic, Anderson Represents this, Saren/Shepard Represent THAT, Illusive man Symbolizes this! Reality doesn't turn people into out of place symbols who couldn't have gotten there.

The Problem with your argument is that it doesn't Debunk, disprove or address ANYTHING about the Indoctrination theory DESPITE the fact you call your thread Debunking it.

I don't think it's funny, nor do I find it amusing.

It's that mindset that bred the ignorance that created the dark ages.
"I'm right, you're wrong, and I'm not gonna bother showing you 'how' you're wrong because your point is too stupid to bother."

Is this a serious post? 

[Hanabii]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Hanabii wrote...

Also, since you won't pick apart the Indoctrination Theory. Let me say something to you.

"Don't try and disprove something if you aren't willing to put the work forward to disprove it." No one respects someone who says 'You thought on the matter is Bullcrap but I'm not even gonna try and disprove it because it's a strawman argument."

Here however is me debunking you.

THE ENTIRE end is Symbolic, Anderson Represents this, Saren/Shepard Represent THAT, Illusive man Symbolizes this! Reality doesn't turn people into out of place symbols who couldn't have gotten there.

The Problem with your argument is that it doesn't Debunk, disprove or address ANYTHING about the Indoctrination theory DESPITE the fact you call your thread Debunking it.

I don't think it's funny, nor do I find it amusing.

It's that mindset that bred the ignorance that created the dark ages.
"I'm right, you're wrong, and I'm not gonna bother showing you 'how' you're wrong because your point is too stupid to bother."

Is this a serious post? 

That's what I've been asking about your whole Debunking thread.

[Ziggeh]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Watch the scene again. Observe TIM controlling both Shepard and Anderson. It's exceedingly obvious.

It really is, to the point were I'm wondering if you'll follow it up by pointing he's holding a gun. It's not an exciting realisation, it's just like, what happens.

I really must be missing something about this theory.

[KevShep]

Ziggeh wrote...

KevShep wrote...
Why...does...he...(catalyst)...look...like the boy from his dreams?

Either because he can read minds or because Shepard had to interpret the information.

It means that he is in his mind. This could mean alot of things but keep in mind that indoctrination can make people see things like ghosts. Ghost>Boy.

[Admiral H. Cain]

Ziggeh wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Watch the scene again. Observe TIM controlling both Shepard and Anderson. It's exceedingly obvious.

It really is, to the point were I'm wondering if you'll follow it up by pointing he's holding a gun. It's not an exciting realisation, it's just like, what happens.

I really must be missing something about this theory.

Yeah, I'd love for those who believe in IT to explain how Shepard is killed by TIM in one scenario if it really is a hallucination...

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 25 mars 2012 - 12:54 .

[Ariq]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Watch the scene again. Observe TIM controlling both Shepard and Anderson. It's exceedingly obvious.

I don't find it obvious. The Illusive Man attributes it to the Reapers. There is nothing that necessitates it being reality vs. hallucination. The scene could fit either.

[atum]

Hanabii wrote...

The Problem with your argument is that it doesn't Debunk, disprove or address ANYTHING about the Indoctrination theory DESPITE the fact you call your thread Debunking it.

This. 


Sorry OP, I dont mean disrespect. I appreciate a good debunking as much as the next guy -- but you got nothing.

All you did was describe one part of the ending at face value. 

[Admiral H. Cain]

Ariq wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Watch the scene again. Observe TIM controlling both Shepard and Anderson. It's exceedingly obvious.

I don't find it obvious. The Illusive Man attributes it to the Reapers. There is nothing that necessitates it being reality vs. hallucination. The scene could fit either.

Yes, he does! He attributes it to them because it is Reaper Tech; Miranda's father discovered this on Sanctuary. 

[Ziggeh]

KevShep wrote...

It means that he is in his mind. This could mean alot of things but keep in mind that indoctrination can make people see things like ghosts. Ghost>Boy.

Only one of those requires access to his brain, and read access at that. And while yeah, not arguing that indocrination could do that to, it's not like that right there clinches the deal because there's an entirely reasonable explanation. Or two.

[Iwillbeback]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Watch the scene again. Observe TIM controlling both Shepard and Anderson. It's exceedingly obvious.

It really is, to the point were I'm wondering if you'll follow it up by pointing he's holding a gun. It's not an exciting realisation, it's just like, what happens.

I really must be missing something about this theory.

Yeah, I'd love for those who believe in IT to explain how Shepard is killed by TIM in one scenario if it really is a hallucination...

Because the Reapers win if shepard gives up that early.
He must give up later because Bioware forced it.

[Admiral H. Cain]

atum wrote...

Hanabii wrote...

The Problem with your argument is that it doesn't Debunk, disprove or address ANYTHING about the Indoctrination theory DESPITE the fact you call your thread Debunking it.

This. 


Sorry OP, I dont mean disrespect. I appreciate a good debunking as much as the next guy -- but you got nothing.

All you did was describe one part of the ending at face value. 

No problem. 

And yes, I did describe it at face value because what happened actually did happen. That's the point.

[hakwea]

Hanabii wrote...

You people need to... Oh, I dunno STOP FEEDING THE TROLL...

Seriously Original Poster, Watch the Vid in my signature, it's the COMPLETE Argument FOR the Indoctrination Theory. IF you would watch it, perhaps you could give your argument some weight.

The problem with your theory is if the Reapers had that much power and that much control why would they even leave shepard an option that allows him to break free? They wouldn't.  If as you say everything leads to a weakening of his will why does he suddenly become so strong willed at the end?

There are just as many holes in your theory as in any one elses. But you don't see them going around calling others that disagree with them a Troll. Stop feeding your youtube views and stop insulting others.

[Taldek]

Ahh yes another IT debunked thread, Can't we just have someone from bioware give us a yes/no to this already...

[Ecmoose]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

You can't assume that Shepard is having a hallucination because he has no past history of hallucinations; it's a straw man argument.

Except that indoctrination causes hallucinations in it's victims regardless of prior exposure.

Straw man what?

Except that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated... The Prothean VI proved it. 

Right, and the VI's are fool proof. If I recall Javik was betrayed on Eden Prime by members of his own race who were indoctrinated...in the presence of a Prothean VI.

Prove it. 

Javik never mentioned that a Prothean VI was present when he was betrayed.

Maybe you didn't see the same cutscenes I did but there was clearly a VI in the station that was betrayed to let the Collectors inside.

If the VI could instantly recognize indoctrination why let them [the indotrinated Protheans] into the facility? If they had not been betrayed within the station there would have been no reason for a purge and Javik wouldn't have been the only stasis pod to survive.

In fact, if Prothean VI's could detect indoctrination without fail, the entire Empire would never have been betrayed, they could just install the VI's everywhere. Talk about baseless argument.

Modifié par Ecmoose, 25 mars 2012 - 01:01 .

[lillitheris]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Hallucinations are extraordinarily rare among people without a history of having them, and to my knowledge, Shepard has never had any hallucinations before this one. I'm assuming of course that Shepard did not consume any hallucinogenic drugs...

Hallucinations are extremely common. In fact, most humans suffer from them at least once during each 24-earth-hour cycle.

Besides, we're not even talking about spontaneous hallucinations. Plus there's explicit precedence for mind control, so this is by no means a stretch.

…

I like your argumentation, mostly, but in truth, it can just as well be used in favour of IT. You don't really debunk it so much as present an alternative.

I find myself thinking IT-lite, i.e. there were some indoctrination elements introduced by developers along the way, but it was never finished (because the dynamic duo and the suits decided the game needed to be released quick) and got cut from the (un)finished product. As things stand, to my mind it seems a very good way of introducing alternative endings.

Modifié par lillitheris, 25 mars 2012 - 01:00 .

[KevShep]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ariq wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Watch the scene again. Observe TIM controlling both Shepard and Anderson. It's exceedingly obvious.

I don't find it obvious. The Illusive Man attributes it to the Reapers. There is nothing that necessitates it being reality vs. hallucination. The scene could fit either.

Yes, he does! He attributes it to them because it is Reaper Tech; Miranda's father discovered this on Sanctuary. 

If the Indoc theory is true then the reapers are trying to get you to listen to TIM and chose control.